Harbinger Shroud?

I am wondering to what the intent is with it. It seems to have much less damage than Desert Shroud, and any healers would surely take Desert Empowerment for reliable barrier application.

I think it's only use is if you don't ever manifest shades...?

@LucianDK.8615 said:I am wondering to what the intent is with it. It seems to have much less damage than Desert Shroud, and any healers would surely take Desert Empowerment for reliable barrier application.

I only used this trait as a healer. Before it was more beneficial to run this in a 10 man comp with little condi pressure than it was to run Desert Empowerment. Now, whenever I run heal scourge I tend to stay melee range with no shades and heal party members close to me, so again, Desert Empowerment wins out. ESPECIALLY now that they fixed the trait interaction with Abrasive Grit.

@"LucianDK.8615" said:I am wondering to what the intent is with it.

Well, at least it's fits the the theme of Necro then.

Scourge, much like the rest of Necro got chopped up a lot since it's release, to a point where there is a lot of confused and conflicting design in there, with nobody really knowing what the point of it is.

It was the master of corruption, but all of that got tuned down, often awkwardly like Path of Corruption changing depending on Elite Spec, or Unending Corruption being changed into this Harbinger Shroud which doesn't really serve any purpose in any gamemode, to a point where it can't compete with alternatives.It was supposed to be a support of sorts, but aside from ressing downs was never really able to compete, especially for more proficient groups, and completely lacked any meaningful boon support.It's the only proper condi Spec for Necro, but falls utterly short of any other Condi DPS spec in the game, getting greatly out damaged even by support hybrids, and is literally only taken for a single skill in Epidemic in niche cases, and even that was nerfed to a point where it's often questionable.They wanted to add a choice to use Shades actively or keep it as "Aura" around you, but seemingly forgot that all minors only interact with Shade Summon, becoming completely useless without, as well as most viable Trait picks relying on that mechanic, especially in the Master Tier.

So my tip is, don't try to understand what the designers responsible for Necromancer are thinking or what they intend with their changes, it won't lead anywhere.

I remember seeing an awful lot of posts in the forum begging for epidemic to get nerfed, due to its pve power. But yeah, I know non healer scourge barriers is utterly pathetic now. How is the healer side holding up?

@"LucianDK.8615" said:I remember seeing an awful lot of posts in the forum begging for epidemic to get nerfed, due to its pve power. But yeah, I know non healer scourge barriers is utterly pathetic now. How is the healer side holding up?

Epidemic got "exploited" by stacking Necros and bouncing it back and forth at bosses with adds, which was the main issue.Even though it was overperforming, it was an interesting strategy that required coordination and made Necromancer viable in Raids, just in need of some adjustment.Plenty people suggested fixes like Epi applying a debuff to any target hit weakening further Epis for some time etc., but instead they just went with a 50% nerf to Epi.Which while it fixed the issue of stacking one profession, it just deleted that strategy entirely, and with it pretty much removed Necromancer from PvE, having no real alternative.

The irony of course is that now the Meta comp for pretty much every boss is heavily stacking one profession, but only if it's Necro that's not okay it seems.

Heal Scourge is just an extremely niche thing, since it doesn't provide anything but barriers, condi cleanse and res power, with most other supports just providing much much more Utility, healing and support, especially when it comes to boon support.So really the only niche for Heal Scourge is maybe training runs with constant downs to ress, as especially with more proficient groups it's better to run an overall much stronger support preventing downs in the first place, while very proficient groups tend to run only one healer anyway, which ofc is Druid with it's 10 man Might stacking and unique buffs like Spirits, as well as various other utility.

@LucianDK.8615 said:I am wondering to what the intent is with it. It seems to have much less damage than Desert Shroud, and any healers would surely take Desert Empowerment for reliable barrier application.

Normally, F5 is a defense-only skill. Harbinger Shroud adds power damage.

In general...Top trait row is support buildsMiddle is for condi buildsBottom is for power builds

Desert Shroud is not a defense only skill.

it seems like a spikey skill no?

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:it seems like a spikey skill no?

Compare with base desert shroud.

@"LucianDK.8615" said:Desert Shroud is not a defense only skill.

You are correct. I totally misunderstood Desert shroud and Harbinger Shroud. Both are personal defense, both have power and condi damage.

Where they differ is in persistence (duration.) DS spreads damage over time while HS crams it into a shorter time period, possibly for better use on moving targets. I will have to try using it that way. LF cost is lower and the "detonation" appears to share barriers.

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@"LucianDK.8615" said:Desert Shroud is not a defense only skill.

Im not sure if if im misreading something, but Harbinger shroud seems to have way less damage than Desert Shroud does. DS have a hefty chunk of power damage, wereas HB have high torment.

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:Desert Shroud is not a defense only skill.

Saw that, too. Will check it in a few day when I can get back online. The trait may be a halfast attempt to retune DS for PvP.

harbringer's shroud does less damage than desert shroud. But it provides more aoe barrier and boon corrupt.

unfortunately, it is stationary and takes 3s to go off. that makes it useless in any pvp setting, which is the only place the barrier and corrupt would be useful

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:it seems like a spikey skill no?

which takes 6 seconds of pulsing. not a spike.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:it seems like a spikey skill no?

Which doesnt matter if harbinger doesnt have the damage.

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:it seems like a spikey skill no?

it needs a buff. its meant to be a spike skill. ok?

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:it seems like a spikey skill no?

That we can agree on now. The whole topic was to try to figure out what the meaning with the skill was. Especially in light of it being weaker than desert shroud.

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:I am wondering to what the intent is with it. It seems to have much less damage than Desert Shroud, and any healers would surely take Desert Empowerment for reliable barrier application.

If you don't use shades, how are you triggering Desert Empowerment? 'Cause the trait triggers from using F1 Manifest Sand Shade, doesn't it? In sheer amount of barrier applied to allies, Harbinger Shroud is stronger though you can trigger Desert Empowerment more often for slightly higher might and cleanse output.One thing that makes Harbinger Shroud really powerful is that you can use it pre-emptively to give allies delayed barrier so if they need to spread out for a mechanic that takes longer than 5 seconds to trigger (Matt's and KC's timed bombs in raids, for ex.), Harbinger Shroud's barrier will pop on them couple seconds before the mechanic hits and nullifies the damage while normal barriers would wear off too early. At VG, well-timed Harbinger Shroud takes effect a second before green AoE hits and thus you can use other barriers to prevent damage from other sources and then have HS give max. barrier on big hit. Also good if someone gets ported right before the AoE so HS will protect them from getting downed at the other side of the arena.

It isn't that much weaker than desert shroud. In PvP/WvW it is actually noticeably weaker, but that's because its base 3.0 damage mod would be absurd for an uninterruptible no cast time skill that also boon strips.

Not strong enough for pve I guess, to compete with sadistic searing.

Well, heals-wise, Harbinger Shroud has 1684 + 2.0healing power as barrier output to allies. Desert Empowerment has 1050 + 0.67healing power. Initial barrier is same with Desert Shroud and Harbinger Shroud. From what Kitty tested, you can't trigger Desert Empowerment by other means than using F1 Manifest Sand Shade (though the damage part of Manifest Sand Shade hits whenever you use any F-skill).Harbinger Shroud has 798 + 3.0power as direct damage, 6 stacks of torment for 10 seconds and 2 boons converted.Desert Shroud has 840 + 3.2its special weapon strength as direct damage (according to wiki, it doesn't scale from your actual stats. Not sure if that's also case with Harbinger Shroud 'cause no mention on it) and 7 stacks of torment for 10 seconds (1 stack per pulse).

Kitty committed a test to see what'd be their real numbers. In the quick test, Desert Shroud did a total of 2293,5 damage in average while Harbinger Shroud did average 1957 damage. So, in this test Desert Shroud did 17,1% more direct damage and due to difference being that high, Kitty would assume that Harbinger Shroud uses your actual weapon strength in damage calculation while Desert Shroud's virtual weapon strength is slightly stronger. The test was done with ascended weapons so with stuff like exotic weapons, the difference is most likely bigger.

Combined with Sadistic Searing's extra burns if you use punishment skills in your build, Herald of Sorrow is somewhat noticeable dps loss and you should only take it if you're doing pure healing, you need more boon corrupts or if you you deem some extra barrier on allies helpful at a raid boss. (Kitty personally likes giving peoples barrier before greens at VG and during Gorseval's rampage etc.) In endgame PVE, if that barrier makes a difference between some dps getting downed or not getting downed or power-heavy squad having full scholar uptime at a boss with high dps pressure, the increase in squad dps can be worth the minor personal dps loss.

@LadyKitty.6120 said:Well, heals-wise, Harbinger Shroud has 1684 + 2.0healing power as barrier output to allies. Desert Empowerment has 1050 + 0.67healing power. Initial barrier is same with Desert Shroud and Harbinger Shroud. From what Kitty tested, you can't trigger Desert Empowerment by other means than using F1 Manifest Sand Shade (though the damage part of Manifest Sand Shade hits whenever you use any F-skill).Harbinger Shroud has 798 + 3.0power as direct damage, 6 stacks of torment for 10 seconds and 2 boons converted.Desert Shroud has 840 + 3.2its special weapon strength as direct damage (according to wiki, it doesn't scale from your actual stats. Not sure if that's also case with Harbinger Shroud 'cause no mention on it) and 7 stacks of torment for 10 seconds (1 stack per pulse).

Kitty committed a test to see what'd be their real numbers. In the quick test, Desert Shroud did a total of 2293,5 damage in average while Harbinger Shroud did average 1957 damage. So, in this test Desert Shroud did 17,1% more direct damage and due to difference being that high, Kitty would assume that Harbinger Shroud uses your actual weapon strength in damage calculation while Desert Shroud's virtual weapon strength is slightly stronger. The test was done with ascended weapons so with stuff like exotic weapons, the difference is most likely bigger.

Combined with Sadistic Searing's extra burns if you use punishment skills in your build, Herald of Sorrow is somewhat noticeable dps loss and you should only take it if you're doing pure healing, you need more boon corrupts or if you you deem some extra barrier on allies helpful at a raid boss. (Kitty personally likes giving peoples barrier before greens at VG and during Gorseval's rampage etc.) In endgame PVE, if that barrier makes a difference between some dps getting downed or not getting downed or power-heavy squad having full scholar uptime at a boss with high dps pressure, the increase in squad dps can be worth the minor personal dps loss.

in that case you might as well go all out healer barrier bot scourge to have them way more effective. I know the barrier strenght was dramatically cut to scale with healing power instead.

It seems like HS is for condi-based builds vs. DS for power-based builds, since HS invokes 6 stacks of Torment but minimal power-based Damage whereas DS invokes 7 pulses of power-based Damage but only one stack of Torment.

HS has been fun to use in OW (very satisfying to hear that detonation!) on a fully condi build, but in PvP it'd be nearly useless, and WvW probably situational at best.

@LadyKitty.6120 said:If you don't use shades, how are you triggering Desert Empowerment? 'Cause the trait triggers from using F1 Manifest Sand Shade, doesn't it? In sheer amount of barrier applied to allies, Harbinger Shroud is stronger though you can trigger Desert Empowerment more often for slightly higher might and cleanse output.

With HS, if you have no shades up, then F5 is centered on you. I assume its the same with DS, it's just not as apparent since you don't get the same visible yellow circle with DS.