I believe Core Skills/Traits should also be split from Elite spec balance — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I believe Core Skills/Traits should also be split from Elite spec balance

To clarify what I mean,
Just the same way skills are split in PvE from SPvP and WvW.

But as of now, Core Skills and Traits are being nerfed and balanced around Elite Specs. Elite specs supposed to be an alternative to the Core classes not a upgrade. But right now they get access to everything core has and more with only mechanical changes of various degrees.

I dont want to take away from that. I just would like Core skills and Traits to be balanced around their own balance whenever we are not using an Elite Spec.

But at the same time can get their nerfs and changes to the same skills and traits when in Elite Specs.

Comments

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    sounds like you are asking for especs to be made baseline.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    sounds like you are asking for especs to be made baseline.

    No, he wants core skills and traits to be less good when an espec is active.

    And when you dont use the espec they become better.

    In my opinion that would be a nightmare.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    sounds like you are asking for especs to be made baseline.

    No, he wants core skills and traits to be less good when an espec is active.

    And when you dont use the espec they become better.

    In my opinion that would be a nightmare.

    Its called a trade off. Elite specs werent meant to be a upgrade, but thats what they turned in to with ANETS inability release balance patches that are meaningful, and when they do, they either over kill a spec or a class or the patches are super slow. They -should- have been side-grades where you gain something but lose something else. All elite specs that ive used are straight up powergains and its made the game even more of a nightmare than it was for balance. Im hoping anet keeps going down the path its started where an elite spec feels like you have to give something up to use its abilities.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    sounds like you are asking for especs to be made baseline.

    No, he wants core skills and traits to be less good when an espec is active.

    And when you dont use the espec they become better.

    In my opinion that would be a nightmare.

    Its called a trade off. Elite specs werent meant to be a upgrade, but thats what they turned in to with ANETS inability release balance patches that are meaningful, and when they do, they either over kill a spec or a class or the patches are super slow. They -should- have been side-grades where you gain something but lose something else. All elite specs that ive used are straight up powergains and its made the game even more of a nightmare than it was for balance. Im hoping anet keeps going down the path its started where an elite spec feels like you have to give something up to use its abilities.

    Reaper loses access to the death shroud, and is pretty much locked at melee range.
    Scourge is a lot more fragile with no second health bar, and the shades have steadilly been nerfed down.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    sounds like you are asking for especs to be made baseline.

    No, he wants core skills and traits to be less good when an espec is active.

    And when you dont use the espec they become better.

    In my opinion that would be a nightmare.

    Its called a trade off. Elite specs werent meant to be a upgrade, but thats what they turned in to with ANETS inability release balance patches that are meaningful, and when they do, they either over kill a spec or a class or the patches are super slow. They -should- have been side-grades where you gain something but lose something else. All elite specs that ive used are straight up powergains and its made the game even more of a nightmare than it was for balance. Im hoping anet keeps going down the path its started where an elite spec feels like you have to give something up to use its abilities.

    Reaper loses access to the death shroud, and is pretty much locked at melee range.
    Scourge is a lot more fragile with no second health bar, and the shades have steadilly been nerfed down.

    (I did say out of the elite specs ive -used- at the start of my post)
    And Reaper doesnt get used very often outside of pve, if even there, its been one of the elite specs that ive always thought ANET needed to rework. The concept was good, but its implementation not so much.

    Scourge from what i know was nerfed so badly to do WVW correct? Hopefully with the game modes being fully split now we can see some changes to that spec too, but i havent used scourge at all so i cant speak for it.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    This wouldn't work unless they introduced a relational balance system, and from what we've seen so far of their inner workings based upon past patches nothing in the game is relational at all; nearly everything is hard-coded in seemingly copy & pasted tables.

    Even the skill facts (tooltips) for individual skills seem to be manually entered, not calculated, as they're often broken. There's also been alot of copy & paste bugs in the game in general over its seven year run, some of them quite bizarre.

    So I just don't see it happening on the current codebase..

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    sounds like you are asking for especs to be made baseline.

    No, he wants core skills and traits to be less good when an espec is active.

    And when you dont use the espec they become better.

    In my opinion that would be a nightmare.

    Its called a trade off. Elite specs werent meant to be a upgrade, but thats what they turned in to with ANETS inability release balance patches that are meaningful, and when they do, they either over kill a spec or a class or the patches are super slow. They -should- have been side-grades where you gain something but lose something else. All elite specs that ive used are straight up powergains and its made the game even more of a nightmare than it was for balance. Im hoping anet keeps going down the path its started where an elite spec feels like you have to give something up to use its abilities.

    Sure, i agree that they were never meant to be an upgrade, but changing traits to be different, when an espec is active just makes everything more confusing and complicated.

    Then you'd have traits that are split between pve and pvp, pve and pvp/wvw, pve and pvp and especs, pve and pvp/wvw and especs.

    Thats not the way to go.
    It takes more creativity to change it in a way that you dont have to split between espec and core.

    But take warrior for example, core, berserker and spb pretty much all have their uses and are played somewhere, and they all have their tradeoffs

    Berserk loses bursts outside of berserkmode, but gets a big powerspike when using it.
    Spb gains cc and anti boon options etc and loses one adrenalin bar, and can only use tier 1 bursts.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2019

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    To clarify what I mean,
    Just the same way skills are split in PvE from SPvP and WvW.

    But as of now, Core Skills and Traits are being nerfed and balanced around Elite Specs. Elite specs supposed to be an alternative to the Core classes not a upgrade. But right now they get access to everything core has and more with only mechanical changes of various degrees.

    I dont want to take away from that. I just would like Core skills and Traits to be balanced around their own balance whenever we are not using an Elite Spec.

    But at the same time can get their nerfs and changes to the same skills and traits when in Elite Specs.

    Here is the problem... Core skills are able to be slot for e-spec builds. 2/3rds of traits for an e-spec are from core. What you do to one, affects the other, so there is no real separation for the current way classes are designs.

    If we are going to continue to complain that core is weak compared, then ask for buffs to some core stuff. You also have to realize the difficulty level of the game was, basically, ultra easy mode when the game released. HoT+ was designed to bring stronger difficulty to the game because everyone cried that the game was too easy, and along with it came stronger class upgrades through e-specs.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2019

    Add a "core elite spec" instead ? With a 4th trait line dedicated to elite spec.
    Arena.net could then use that to balance core spec.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    To clarify what I mean,
    Just the same way skills are split in PvE from SPvP and WvW.

    But as of now, Core Skills and Traits are being nerfed and balanced around Elite Specs. Elite specs supposed to be an alternative to the Core classes not a upgrade. But right now they get access to everything core has and more with only mechanical changes of various degrees.

    I dont want to take away from that. I just would like Core skills and Traits to be balanced around their own balance whenever we are not using an Elite Spec.

    But at the same time can get their nerfs and changes to the same skills and traits when in Elite Specs.

    You clearly do not understand the business model of this game.

  • Vincenzo.3145Vincenzo.3145 Member ✭✭✭

    Elite specs were meant as what Elite skills were to the rest. That's why they have their own slots. They are basically "upgrades", yes. But they are optional and not always optimal. There have been and still are plenty good core builds, some of which are even meta. It's all about choice, not shooting yourself in the foot to be a different class.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2019

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    sounds like you are asking for especs to be made baseline.

    No, he wants core skills and traits to be less good when an espec is active.

    And when you dont use the espec they become better.

    In my opinion that would be a nightmare.

    Its called a trade off. Elite specs werent meant to be a upgrade, but thats what they turned in to with ANETS inability release balance patches that are meaningful, and when they do, they either over kill a spec or a class or the patches are super slow. They -should- have been side-grades where you gain something but lose something else. All elite specs that ive used are straight up powergains and its made the game even more of a nightmare than it was for balance. Im hoping anet keeps going down the path its started where an elite spec feels like you have to give something up to use its abilities.

    Reaper loses access to the death shroud, and is pretty much locked at melee range.
    Scourge is a lot more fragile with no second health bar, and the shades have steadilly been nerfed down.

    Alot more fragile, lol? O.o
    Yeah thats definetly why everyone run it.

    The reaper is actually one of the best examples of how an elite is balanced and I've always considered it that - well with the exception of deathly chill destroying WvW for 8 months. Better melee, worse ranged.

    However...

    Its pretty much unique, isnt it?

    Like... What if the spellbreaker elite had lost access to greatsword? Yeah never gonna happen. Yet its the same thing.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • The OP has the right idea but it will never happen. The best we can hope for are changes that give the core skills better synergies when slotted together than what you would get choosing an elite.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:
    Elite specs were meant as what Elite skills were to the rest. That's why they have their own slots. They are basically "upgrades", yes. But they are optional and not always optimal. There have been and still are plenty good core builds, some of which are even meta. It's all about choice, not shooting yourself in the foot to be a different class.

    No, they were never meant as simple upgrades, they were meant as their name implies, specializations.

    Means you specialize in one thing, but pay for it with something else.

    For example, spb gained boon removal and lost tier3 bursts.

    Scourge gained more aoe and corruption and lost its shroud.

    Etc.

  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    sounds like you are asking for especs to be made baseline.

    No, he wants core skills and traits to be less good when an espec is active.

    And when you dont use the espec they become better.

    In my opinion that would be a nightmare.

    Its called a trade off. Elite specs werent meant to be a upgrade, but thats what they turned in to with ANETS inability release balance patches that are meaningful, and when they do, they either over kill a spec or a class or the patches are super slow. They -should- have been side-grades where you gain something but lose something else. All elite specs that ive used are straight up powergains and its made the game even more of a nightmare.

    This.

    The changes are drastic. It goes from turning something obsolete to turning something annoying to play against.

  • @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Add a "core elite spec" instead ? With a 4th trait line dedicated to elite spec.
    Arena.net could then use that to balance core spec.

    I like this idea, but instead of creating a new spec pick the traitline for each profession's core mechanic. No more Soulbeasts with Uber stats from Beast mastery, Spellbreakers and zerkers have normal weapon swaps and no more burst CD reduction, Reapers have less shroud uptime and less crit chance in Shroud and so forth.

    This alone would do a great deal to rebalance the especs and it makes sense. The especs change the professions mechanic, so why should they have access to the core mechanic traitline?