Double Firebrand Double Herald — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Double Firebrand Double Herald

This composition just won both EU and NA Monthly Automated Tournaments.

Maybe this is just me but I aways thought one of the main points of game balance was to increase build diversity and representation to make the game more exciting to play and watch.

Instead after the last two years of balance, nerfs, buffs, reworks, we've ended in a place where there is significantly far less class diversity than when Path of Fire first dropped.

How is balance and diversity some how worse now after years of balancing than when PoF came out?

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Comments

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    There has never been real PvP balancing. There is PvE balancing which wants to give all classes a usefull role against PvE encounter - raids in particular. Just tweaking some numbers to make it work in PvP doesn't give good PvP balance. Especially if class spec design is 100% PvE driven.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything.

    they are perfect alone, but this is a team game, then you have the fb the only viable support that can turn balanced classes in bosses so they can fight that team of op classes and even do better.

    so 1 fb(only support)+1 balanced class is better than 2 holos.

    then we can ask what that team of op classes do so they don't synergy too well with the fb? BOONS

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    To be fair the people who won would of won on any 5 com set up.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

    then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.
    when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )
    Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.
    Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.
    Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

    The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

    well mobility is the most important factor on this game, so yeah mobility is a very good weakness, fb don't hardcounter every build, they can defend themselves and their team from hits, because that's what they do as a support.
    just because they have everything at their disposal does not mean they are equiped with it, there's a utility slot limit you know?
    when fb is at f3 they are only at defense, they can't attack but they will shine at defense of course
    when fb is at f2 they are only healers, they can't atk but they will shine at heal of course
    when fb is at f1 they are vulnerable and die in 2 hits from the power creep since they have 11k base hp and low mobility

    if they waste their tomes they are vulnerable for more than one minute

    the only thing that is overshining fb right now it's the symbol builds, but it's the guardian problem not fb it'self

  • This comp did not win NA. Double rev one firebrand did. Though many teams did run double firebrand.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

    then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.
    when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )
    Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.
    Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.
    Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

    The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

    Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

    SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

    Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

    A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.
    Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

    then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.
    when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )
    Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.
    Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.
    Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

    The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

    Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

    SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

    Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

    A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.
    Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

    There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.
    dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.
    With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.
    If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.
    Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.
    FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    fb and rev are op i'm surprised how these werent nerfed in next balance patch, i've posted about both like 1 month ago

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe it's time to nerf support in PvP... Maybe

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

    then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.
    when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )
    Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.
    Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.
    Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

    The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

    Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

    SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

    Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

    A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.
    Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

    There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.
    dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.
    With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.
    If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.
    Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.
    FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

    Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

    One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

    The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

    In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

    In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

    I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    And yet people are constantly whining about holo...

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP content

  • its easy, buff necro

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

    then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.
    when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )
    Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.
    Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.
    Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

    The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

    Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

    SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

    Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

    A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.
    Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

    There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.
    dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.
    With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.
    If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.
    Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.
    FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

    Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

    One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

    The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

    In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

    In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

    I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

    Imagine defending class stacking this much.

    When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing super well on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing any of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

    Where am I defending class stacking?

    I even explicitly said that FB needs tuning down.

    I'm just debating the ridiculous hyperbole that it apparently counters EVERYTHING, when it obviously doesn't.

    If something is being double-picked for AT's, it probably means it is too strong. It doesn't mean it is god-mode.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

    then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.
    when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )
    Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.
    Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.
    Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

    The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

    Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

    SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

    Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

    A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.
    Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

    There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.
    dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.
    With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.
    If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.
    Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.
    FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

    Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

    One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

    The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

    In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

    In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

    I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

    Imagine defending class stacking this much.

    When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing super well on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing any of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

    Where am I defending class stacking?

    I even explicitly said that FB needs tuning down.

    I'm just debating the ridiculous hyperbole that it apparently counters EVERYTHING, when it obviously doesn't.

    If something is being double-picked for AT's, it probably means it is too strong. It doesn't mean it is god-mode.

    Although I do understand what you're saying, and I do agree with it, I think what others are trying to suggest is that Firebrand is the only class with that much diversity for being effective at its role.

    A great 1v1er and team fighter as Symbolbrand, great support (well, realistically, the only support) as Mender's Brand (eh, that just had a nice ring to it), it can be stacked and still be effective. Compare that to Mirage, (to a certain extent) Holo, Soulbeast, (Rene-what?), Scourge, basically any other PoF spec and it won't be outshone (excepted for mobility, but if you already have two nodes, that's the only thing you need to win the game).

    I do get what you mean though - it is in no way what Condition Mirage or Yolosmith used to be, ultimate god modes with basically a broken kit, but it's currently what needs to be toned down - Herald I do not think requires toning down as its synergy with any support realistically makes it worth playing because of the lack of buffs to other DPS/roamer specializations.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

    then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.
    when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )
    Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.
    Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.
    Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

    The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

    Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

    SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

    Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

    A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.
    Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

    There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.
    dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.
    With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.
    If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.
    Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.
    FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

    Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

    One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

    The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

    In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

    In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

    I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

    Imagine defending class stacking this much.

    When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing super well on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing any of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

    Where am I defending class stacking?

    I even explicitly said that FB needs tuning down.

    I'm just debating the ridiculous hyperbole that it apparently counters EVERYTHING, when it obviously doesn't.

    If something is being double-picked for AT's, it probably means it is too strong. It doesn't mean it is god-mode.

    Although I do understand what you're saying, and I do agree with it, I think what others are trying to suggest is that Firebrand is the only class with that much diversity for being effective at its role.

    A great 1v1er and team fighter as Symbolbrand, great support (well, realistically, the only support) as Mender's Brand (eh, that just had a nice ring to it), it can be stacked and still be effective. Compare that to Mirage, (to a certain extent) Holo, Soulbeast, (Rene-what?), Scourge, basically any other PoF spec and it won't be outshone (excepted for mobility, but if you already have two nodes, that's the only thing you need to win the game).

    I do get what you mean though - it is in no way what Condition Mirage or Yolosmith used to be, ultimate god modes with basically a broken kit, but it's currently what needs to be toned down - Herald I do not think requires toning down as its synergy with any support realistically makes it worth playing because of the lack of buffs to other DPS/roamer specializations.

    Having diversity of builds is not a problem at all, it should be a target for every single profession. The fact that an elite-spec can be viably played as either a DPS or a bunker or a support is fine.

    The problem is when a single build can do everything at once.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

    you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

    this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

    a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

    holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?
    thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

    then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.
    when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )
    Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.
    Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.
    Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

    The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

    Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

    SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

    Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

    A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.
    Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

    There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.
    dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.
    With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.
    If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.
    Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.
    FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

    Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

    One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

    The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

    In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

    In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

    I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

    Imagine defending class stacking this much.

    When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing super well on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing any of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

    Where am I defending class stacking?

    I even explicitly said that FB needs tuning down.

    I'm just debating the ridiculous hyperbole that it apparently counters EVERYTHING, when it obviously doesn't.

    If something is being double-picked for AT's, it probably means it is too strong. It doesn't mean it is god-mode.

    Although I do understand what you're saying, and I do agree with it, I think what others are trying to suggest is that Firebrand is the only class with that much diversity for being effective at its role.

    A great 1v1er and team fighter as Symbolbrand, great support (well, realistically, the only support) as Mender's Brand (eh, that just had a nice ring to it), it can be stacked and still be effective. Compare that to Mirage, (to a certain extent) Holo, Soulbeast, (Rene-what?), Scourge, basically any other PoF spec and it won't be outshone (excepted for mobility, but if you already have two nodes, that's the only thing you need to win the game).

    I do get what you mean though - it is in no way what Condition Mirage or Yolosmith used to be, ultimate god modes with basically a broken kit, but it's currently what needs to be toned down - Herald I do not think requires toning down as its synergy with any support realistically makes it worth playing because of the lack of buffs to other DPS/roamer specializations.

    Having diversity of builds is not a problem at all, it should be a target for every single profession. The fact that an elite-spec can be viably played as either a DPS or a bunker or a support is fine.

    The problem is when a single build can do everything at once.

    That is true, and I feel rather stupid for phrasing what I meant that way.
    Other classes require buffs to their kits to compare to Firebrand's, or Firebrand should be lowered to other classes' level. That's basically what I tried to say. Currently, it shuts down the diversity in other classes because of its high versatility and effectiveness, a bit like Mirage back in the day. I'm not saying gut it like Chronomancer, because that would be dumdumb. I am saying that the diversity it offers also shuts down more possible diversity elsewhere, if that makes any sense at all.

  • Monkey See.1498Monkey See.1498 Member ✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    There was a MAT yesterday. @Flandre.2870 in this thread was one of the EU winners running double FB double Herald.

    And after the "September" Monthly two weeks ago staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed to hamstring the bug they were abusing to bunk nodes so easily and there are more nerfs listed in the balance patch preview. Meanwhile the scheduled nerfs for FB and Herald are.... strangely absent from the balance preview.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed.

    And mesmer wasn't. Because it isn't actually an issue at the moment, regardless of MAT picks.

    Its almost like you need to look beyond simply counting the number of professions in the most recent MAT final, and assess problems more widely.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed.

    And mesmer wasn't. Because it isn't actually an issue at the moment, regardless of MAT picks.

    Its almost like you need to look beyond simply counting the number of professions in the most recent MAT final, and assess problems more widely.

    Yeah it's so weird that Mirage is being igno-

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback.

    In particular we’re looking at:

    • Condi Thief
    • Holosmith
    • Condi Mirage
    • Rampage
    • Warrior’s Cunning
    • Revisiting Staff Thief

    Condi Mirage
    We understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

    • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
    • Phantasmal Warlock:

      • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
    • Chaos Vortex:

      • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
      • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
      • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only
  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed.

    And mesmer wasn't. Because it isn't actually an issue at the moment, regardless of MAT picks.

    Its almost like you need to look beyond simply counting the number of professions in the most recent MAT final, and assess problems more widely.

    Yeah it's so weird that Mirage is being igno-

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback.

    In particular we’re looking at:

    • Condi Thief
    • Holosmith
    • Condi Mirage
    • Rampage
    • Warrior’s Cunning
    • Revisiting Staff Thief

    Condi Mirage
    We understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

    • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
    • Phantasmal Warlock:

      • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
    • Chaos Vortex:

      • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
      • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
      • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

    You were referring to the hot-fix to staff thief.

    Now you're talking about a patch that hasn't happened yet, where we don't even know what the final change-set will consist of.

    Why are you moving the goal-posts?

    Edit: And by "last MAT" I meant previous. I'm well aware that there was also one yesterday. That doesn't change the fact that there was also one 2 weeks ago. Hence why I clarified "2 weeks ago" in my comment.

  • Monkey See.1498Monkey See.1498 Member ✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed.

    And mesmer wasn't. Because it isn't actually an issue at the moment, regardless of MAT picks.

    Its almost like you need to look beyond simply counting the number of professions in the most recent MAT final, and assess problems more widely.

    Yeah it's so weird that Mirage is being igno-

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback.

    In particular we’re looking at:

    • Condi Thief
    • Holosmith
    • Condi Mirage
    • Rampage
    • Warrior’s Cunning
    • Revisiting Staff Thief

    Condi Mirage
    We understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

    • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
    • Phantasmal Warlock:

      • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
    • Chaos Vortex:

      • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
      • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
      • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

    You were referring to the hot-fix to staff thief.

    Now you're talking about a patch that hasn't happened yet, where we don't even know what the final change-set will consist of.

    Why are you moving the goal-posts?

    Edit: And by "last MAT" I meant previous. I'm well aware that there was also one yesterday. That doesn't change the fact that there was also one 2 weeks ago. Hence why I clarified "2 weeks ago" in my comment.

    ...

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    There was a MAT yesterday. @Flandre.2870 in this thread was one of the EU winners running double FB double Herald.

    And after the "September" Monthly two weeks ago staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed to hamstring the bug they were abusing to bunk nodes so easily and there are more nerfs listed in the balance patch preview. Meanwhile the scheduled nerfs for FB and Herald are.... strangely absent from the balance preview.

    Maybe if you didn't clip and ignore most of my post you wouldn't have missed most of my post.

    Right now Firebrand and Herald are dominating ATs and they've seen a dramatic uptick in ranked as well. Staff thief had the bug hot fixed, more nerfs to both it and condition thief are coming. Condition Mirage and Spellbreaker both have serious nerfs announced in the preview. Holo is getting some shaves. Meanwhile by CMC's own admission the Firebrand and Herald are not even on their radar for the next balance patch and they were not particularly looking at them. Those are his words.

    Like seriously, why are you even in this thread? All you've done is defend, distract, and derail the conversation away from talking about two over performing specs that are currently being stacked in a way that is unhealthy in ATs and frankly they're starting to clog up ranked as well.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed.

    And mesmer wasn't. Because it isn't actually an issue at the moment, regardless of MAT picks.

    Its almost like you need to look beyond simply counting the number of professions in the most recent MAT final, and assess problems more widely.

    Yeah it's so weird that Mirage is being igno-

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback.

    In particular we’re looking at:

    • Condi Thief
    • Holosmith
    • Condi Mirage
    • Rampage
    • Warrior’s Cunning
    • Revisiting Staff Thief

    Condi Mirage
    We understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

    • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
    • Phantasmal Warlock:

      • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
    • Chaos Vortex:

      • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
      • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
      • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

    You were referring to the hot-fix to staff thief.

    Now you're talking about a patch that hasn't happened yet, where we don't even know what the final change-set will consist of.

    Why are you moving the goal-posts?

    Edit: And by "last MAT" I meant previous. I'm well aware that there was also one yesterday. That doesn't change the fact that there was also one 2 weeks ago. Hence why I clarified "2 weeks ago" in my comment.

    ...

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    There was a MAT yesterday. @Flandre.2870 in this thread was one of the EU winners running double FB double Herald.

    And after the "September" Monthly two weeks ago staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed to hamstring the bug they were abusing to bunk nodes so easily and there are more nerfs listed in the balance patch preview. Meanwhile the scheduled nerfs for FB and Herald are.... strangely absent from the balance preview.

    Maybe if you didn't clip and ignore most of my post you wouldn't have missed most of my post.

    Right now Firebrand and Herald are dominating ATs and they've seen a dramatic uptick in ranked as well. Staff thief had the bug hot fixed, more nerfs to both it and condition thief are coming. Condition Mirage and Spellbreaker both have serious nerfs announced in the preview. Holo is getting some shaves. Meanwhile by CMC's own admission the Firebrand and Herald are not even on their radar for the next balance patch and they were not particularly looking at them. Those are his words.

    Like seriously, why are you even in this thread? All you've done is defend, distract, and derail the conversation away from talking about two over performing specs that are currently being stacked in a way that is unhealthy in ATs and frankly they're starting to clog up ranked as well.

    Rofl, all of that wasn't in your original post, you edited it in afterwards.

    If I respond to something, and then AFTERWARDS you change what you said, then obviously what I said won't make sense.

    Your original post just said "And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed. "

    This is what I responded to. If you edit in a load of extra stuff afterwards, how can you expect me to read and respond to stuff you haven't written yet? Do you legit expect me to see the future?

    Its there for all to see. Original post: 8.09pm, Edited 8.14pm.

    My response was at 8.13pm, before you edited in all the extra stuff that I "didn't bother to read" (because it wasn't there yet lol)

    That's some next-level fake-news.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    If you want to stop playing propaganda.......

    I fully expect FB to be on the chopping-block for the balance pass following the next one.

    They're always lagging 6 months behind the meta.

    They're just now catching up to Holo and Condi-Thief, when people were complaining about those back at the start of the summer. FB (at least, hybrid variant) wasn't something people were really talking about until the last month or so.

    Now people are complaining about FB, it'll probably get hit in March patch. Even though, by then, there'll be a new flavour-of-the-month (I'm predicting Boonbeast to make a comeback).

  • Just play DA staff it’s the best FB rev counter in the game. It can also plus 1 into most side noders like ele and condi mirage better than other thief builds and still has ability to decap with shortbow

  • Ralkuth.1456Ralkuth.1456 Member ✭✭✭

    Not commenting on the balance discussion itself but man, this might be the first time I see gaslighting in action.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed.

    And mesmer wasn't. Because it isn't actually an issue at the moment, regardless of MAT picks.

    Its almost like you need to look beyond simply counting the number of professions in the most recent MAT final, and assess problems more widely.

    Yeah it's so weird that Mirage is being igno-

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback.

    In particular we’re looking at:

    • Condi Thief
    • Holosmith
    • Condi Mirage
    • Rampage
    • Warrior’s Cunning
    • Revisiting Staff Thief

    Condi Mirage
    We understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

    • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
    • Phantasmal Warlock:

      • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
    • Chaos Vortex:

      • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
      • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
      • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

    You were referring to the hot-fix to staff thief.

    Now you're talking about a patch that hasn't happened yet, where we don't even know what the final change-set will consist of.

    Why are you moving the goal-posts?

    Edit: And by "last MAT" I meant previous. I'm well aware that there was also one yesterday. That doesn't change the fact that there was also one 2 weeks ago. Hence why I clarified "2 weeks ago" in my comment.

    ...

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

    That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

    There was a MAT yesterday. @Flandre.2870 in this thread was one of the EU winners running double FB double Herald.

    And after the "September" Monthly two weeks ago staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed to hamstring the bug they were abusing to bunk nodes so easily and there are more nerfs listed in the balance patch preview. Meanwhile the scheduled nerfs for FB and Herald are.... strangely absent from the balance preview.

    Maybe if you didn't clip and ignore most of my post you wouldn't have missed most of my post.

    Right now Firebrand and Herald are dominating ATs and they've seen a dramatic uptick in ranked as well. Staff thief had the bug hot fixed, more nerfs to both it and condition thief are coming. Condition Mirage and Spellbreaker both have serious nerfs announced in the preview. Holo is getting some shaves. Meanwhile by CMC's own admission the Firebrand and Herald are not even on their radar for the next balance patch and they were not particularly looking at them. Those are his words.

    Like seriously, why are you even in this thread? All you've done is defend, distract, and derail the conversation away from talking about two over performing specs that are currently being stacked in a way that is unhealthy in ATs and frankly they're starting to clog up ranked as well.

    Rofl, all of that wasn't in your original post, you edited it in afterwards.

    If I respond to something, and then AFTERWARDS you change what you said, then obviously what I said won't make sense.

    Your original post just said "And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed. "

    This is what I responded to. If you edit in a load of extra stuff afterwards, how can you expect me to read and respond to stuff you haven't written yet? Do you legit expect me to see the future?

    Its there for all to see. Original post: 8.09pm, Edited 8.14pm.

    My response was at 8.13pm, before you edited in all the extra stuff that I "didn't bother to read" (because it wasn't there yet lol)

    That's some next-level fake-news.

    The only change made to that post was adding in the fact that Flandre won the MAT using that comp and @ing them.

  • Wouldn't the problem be solved if you can't have 2 of the same class in 1 team?

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Riptide.5617 said:
    Wouldn't the problem be solved if you can't have 2 of the same class in 1 team?

    That wouldnt fix the problem of one class clearly overperforming

  • @Riptide.5617 said:
    Wouldn't the problem be solved if you can't have 2 of the same class in 1 team?

    It would solve class stacking but doesn't solve how mandatory and overperforming some builds are.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly. With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver. Essentially we're going to keep a close eye on the meta builds that aren't seeing any changes, but we want to see how the new meta shakes out first. Like I've said previously, we have the opportunity to make additional changes outside of the usual balance cadence if something terrible happens.

    Support firebrand is more of a big picture issue. It's definitely the dominant support build, which pushes out some other builds that just don't bring as much to the table. This is something we're looking at for the larger update, but isn't really solvable with a few quick changes in the short-term. There are some shaves we can do if support fb is overperforming relative to the power of the meta, but it's likely to continue being the best support build for the time being.

    Please let us know if you've seen the feedback regarding the trait Lock On and if you've decided to address the double proc. Please remove the on-hit proc and increase the internal cooldown of the trait.

    12 seconds of reveal, 20 stacks of vulnerability, and 10s of fury on a 25 second cooldown that the Holo can trigger simply by hitting you in stealth/CCing you is extremely powerful, passive, and easy to land without much effort or thought on their part. Not to mention that the procs do not share the same internal cooldown which seems like a bug at the very least.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Have to remember rev only has one elite spec the whole kalla thing has always just been a pve charr tea party. Also yeah in wvw the only way its balanced there in competitive is if the enemy is skill lagged out to the point that they can't hit the charr.

  • Theros.1390Theros.1390 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver.

    I always thought that Weaver was one of the most balanced elite spe in competitives modes (compared to other overperforming ones)

    I guess I was wrong since it's also in the sights apparently.

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly. With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver. Essentially we're going to keep a close eye on the meta builds that aren't seeing any changes, but we want to see how the new meta shakes out first. Like I've said previously, we have the opportunity to make additional changes outside of the usual balance cadence if something terrible happens.

    Support firebrand is more of a big picture issue. It's definitely the dominant support build, which pushes out some other builds that just don't bring as much to the table. This is something we're looking at for the larger update, but isn't really solvable with a few quick changes in the short-term. There are some shaves we can do if support fb is overperforming relative to the power of the meta, but it's likely to continue being the best support build for the time being.

    Hello, FB is not a spec that pushes out other supports, if FB stopped existing I dont think other supports would suddenly start being stacked, the problem is that FB is simply overtuned and thats why I started seeing 2-3 of them each game on average.
    I agree that issue is hard to tackle, if other supports get buffed then we can have bunker meta where 3 different supports sit mid, nerfing FB would make it so there are no supports in meta.
    Propably the healthy thing would be do some small changes to make FB weaker, and make other supports have something different that other supports cant provide, while
    making stacking support not favourable.
    Whether you hit the issue spot on, make a meh change or fail in it compleatly, Ill be watching with great intrest

    PS
    @shadowpass.4236 dont derail please.

  • Monkey See.1498Monkey See.1498 Member ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2019

    @Theros.1390 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver.

    I always thought that Weaver was one of the most balanced elite spe in competitives modes (compared to other overperforming ones)

    I guess I was wrong since it's also in the sights apparently.

    Weaver is probably the best 1v1 spec in the game right now. It does have some weaknesses notably how slow the meta build is since it can't afford lightning flash, probably the slowest in the game with only a minor amount of swiftness, air 2, and that's it.

    But any build that can potentially stack 45 stacks of burning onto a target, effectively doing 18,000 damage per second in burning, probably deserves a serious look in.

    https://www.twitch.tv/im_grimjack/clip/CulturedCautiousChamoisPogChamp

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly. With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver. Essentially we're going to keep a close eye on the meta builds that aren't seeing any changes, but we want to see how the new meta shakes out first. Like I've said previously, we have the opportunity to make additional changes outside of the usual balance cadence if something terrible happens.

    Support firebrand is more of a big picture issue. It's definitely the dominant support build, which pushes out some other builds that just don't bring as much to the table. This is something we're looking at for the larger update, but isn't really solvable with a few quick changes in the short-term. There are some shaves we can do if support fb is overperforming relative to the power of the meta, but it's likely to continue being the best support build for the time being.

    Hello, FB is not a spec that pushes out other supports, if FB stopped existing I dont think other supports would suddenly start being stacked, the problem is that FB is simply overtuned and thats why I started seeing 2-3 of them each game on average.
    I agree that issue is hard to tackle, if other supports get buffed then we can have bunker meta where 3 different supports sit mid, nerfing FB would make it so there are no supports in meta.
    Propably the healthy thing would be do some small changes to make FB weaker, and make other supports have something different that other supports cant provide, while
    making stacking support not favourable.
    Whether you hit the issue spot on, make a meh change or fail in it compleatly, Ill be watching with great intrest

    PS
    @shadowpass.4236 dont derail please.

    "Essentially we're going to keep a close eye on the meta builds that aren't seeing any changes, but we want to see how the new meta shakes out first."

    I'm not. Holo Lock On is one of the issues that isn't seeing any changes on a meta build.

  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2019

    Lol. These whiners on the forums. Symbol brand is countered by not standing in the symbols by Dodging. Just like how you should not stand in Scourge Shades.

    Also Ranged Damage eats symbolbrand before even having a chance to block it. Of course, if you fire into the fb’s reflect more than once then that’s your fault.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly. With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver.

    Correction Power herald is the one favored, The rest of revenant isn't touched as much. Condition damage mallyx builds are coming out of the woodwork but they are no where near as devestating as the power burst damage. We lack a lot of tools that classes like warrior have in abundance and guardian as a whole can out do us, A full burst revenant can smash people sure. A lot of the issues with revenant comes down to some of the changes made, it was made to be a duelist and those abilities have been stripped and its damage given multipliers rather than nuance. Power Herald or power rev in general is a one trick pony, same basic roation and attack formula acrossed the board.

    Revenant needs love its just not on the front of power damage that it needs love, I main a condition damage rev and I can tell you is waaaay more challenging that playing our power brethern's builds. Especially with condi-cleanse and the mad support prowess running around~ If you nerf power/herald or power/rev then you need to spread some love elsewhere to keep the class from falling off again.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2019

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly. With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver. Essentially we're going to keep a close eye on the meta builds that aren't seeing any changes, but we want to see how the new meta shakes out first. Like I've said previously, we have the opportunity to make additional changes outside of the usual balance cadence if something terrible happens.

    Well mainly, it's Herald meta that is stacked. The rest of the class outside of Herald is either meme-tier or never stacked. The big reason it is played by organized teams is because Rev in general has poor sustain but excellent engage and burst damage thanks to being able to stack multiple damage mods. When supported by a FB to make up for the sustain/condi weakness issue it can end up feeling like the class has no downside in the hands of a team built around it. Alone without support, most people consider the class pretty balanced.

    A way to address the problem would thus be:
    -Forceful persistence. -> Reduced to 8% upkeep 2% Herald facets
    -Burst of strength -> Reduced to 10% damage buff on hit
    -Reinforced Potency -> Reduced to 0.75% damage per boon
    *Reasoning: Toning down Herald damage mods across the board addresses the issue that Herald gets too much free damage, and keeping it this way would mean the rest of the Rev class keeps getting nerfed around it.

    -Swift termination -> Reduced to 15% damage buff
    *Reasoning: This is the one nerf outside Herald that is mainly needed because of double stacking Revs. Two Revs bursting the same target will gain the bonus from swift term way too quickly. This will also make the utility/sustain traits Brutality and Assassin's Annihilation more viable by being less outshined.

    -Cleansing channel -> 2 conditions removed
    *Reasoning: This is a slight buff to Revs sustain that would make the above nerfs hurt less for Revs that are solo queuing ranked. When Revs have an FB in an organized team, they can just fall back for cleanses/Resistance, however this does not exist in Solo Q very much.

    The TL;DR of it is that Herald damage mods were way overbuffed in the Herald rework a year ago or so, and it's really annoying to keep seeing all Core legends / traits / Renegade getting constantly nerfed due to an issue that is primarily due to how Herald can stack damage mods over +30%.

  • @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly.

    This is patently ridiculous on its face. Rev spent close to an entirely year through Path of Fire being largely abandoned by high end players because it wasn't considered good in the face of PoF power creep.

    Then it received a plethora of buffs to its offhand sword as well as benefiting from nerfs to the over performing specs. At which point once it became one of the best builds in the gameas balance patches rolled in and that's when players looking to perform as good as possible swapped to it. The best players will flock to the highest performing specs, not the other way around.

    Rev, or more specifically power herald had always been a high skill cap spec, leaving it untouched and you had situations like Toker swapping from thief to rev main and constantly winning 1v2s, but nerfing it too much to make it "balanced" at the high end leave it unviable as a spec to the average player that can't pull off the damage spike combos consistently.

  • Monkey See.1498Monkey See.1498 Member ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2019

    @Darknicrofia.2604 said:

    @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly.

    This is patently ridiculous on its face. Rev spent close to an entirely year through Path of Fire being largely abandoned by high end players because it wasn't considered good in the face of PoF power creep.

    Then it received a plethora of buffs to its offhand sword as well as benefiting from nerfs to the over performing specs. At which point once it became one of the best builds in the gameas balance patches rolled in and that's when players looking to perform as good as possible swapped to it. The best players will flock to the highest performing specs, not the other way around.

    Rev, or more specifically power herald had always been a high skill cap spec

    Nah, not more or less than any other profession. When you're starting to look at 1,000s of matches played whatever individual nuances each specific class isn't going to jump out compared to others. It's not like picking Power Herald is like suddenly picking up Street Fighter 4 and forcing you to perfect 1frame combo links while everyone is playing plain ol' GW2 and achieving similar levels of effectiveness.

  • @Monkey See.1498 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly.

    This is patently ridiculous on its face. Rev spent close to an entirely year through Path of Fire being largely abandoned by high end players because it wasn't considered good in the face of PoF power creep.

    Then it received a plethora of buffs to its offhand sword as well as benefiting from nerfs to the over performing specs. At which point once it became one of the best builds in the gameas balance patches rolled in and that's when players looking to perform as good as possible swapped to it. The best players will flock to the highest performing specs, not the other way around.

    This. The game is largely about abusing the best picks and their counterpicks at the moment. Don't try and pretend otherwise, Anet.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭

    gogo guys play power rev
    burn your energy for a skill comb and see you die everytime when fighting some half brained ppl

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