Condi Mirage post nerf — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage post nerf

Hello good people of the forums.

As a new player (~150 games played in total) who enjoys condi mirage I am worried that the nerfs will kill it, or at least make it super duper weak. Was hoping some of you more knowledgeable players could weigh in a bit. Since I am so new to the game I'm pretty useless when it comes to theorycrafting potential builds, could I simply swap out the nerfed staff for a different weapon set and still be decent? The condi mirage is the first build, of the handful I've tried so far, that has "clicked" with me, I'd be a bummer if right as I find a spec I like it gets nerfed into unviability.

Perhaps my worries are unfounded, I certainly hope so, I just wanted to ask you more experienced mesmer players what you thought about the future of condi mirage. So that if it will be made trash tier I can trying out some other builds or classes till I find something else I really enjoy.

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Comments

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rambo.9280 said:
    Hello good people of the forums.

    As a new player (~150 games played in total) who enjoys condi mirage I am worried that the nerfs will kill it, or at least make it super duper weak. Was hoping some of you more knowledgeable players could weigh in a bit. Since I am so new to the game I'm pretty useless when it comes to theorycrafting potential builds, could I simply swap out the nerfed staff for a different weapon set and still be decent? The condi mirage is the first build, of the handful I've tried so far, that has "clicked" with me, I'd be a bummer if right as I find a spec I like it gets nerfed into unviability.

    Perhaps my worries are unfounded, I certainly hope so, I just wanted to ask you more experienced mesmer players what you thought about the future of condi mirage. So that if it will be made trash tier I can trying out some other builds or classes till I find something else I really enjoy.

    Hi, im no expert but I have always been good at theorycrafting in other games and trying to apply my insight here.
    From what I understand condimirage ( this is what you mean right ? ) is not "good becouse its good" its entire nature revolves around
    1 projectiles
    2 conditions
    And it has no burst damage, what it means is that its not about mirage being strong, it relies on meta to be favourable for it.
    Cmirage is bad against firebrand, they can outsustain condis with heals, block them with proj block or cleanse them.
    Cmirage wont be MUCH worse after the nerfs, but what will change is meta will move to more firebrands.
    I personally think cmirage will be MUCH worse, not becouse of the nerfs but becouse of the meta shift.
    Overall staff will propably be on par with axe now? you should be fine after switching to axe/torch + scepter/pistol.
    Expecially since warrior and holo will be weaker ( competition nerfed ).
    You will gain MUCH more damage, and lose ALOT of sustain and mobility for it, it will be a tradeoff.

  • So it's not as much the direct nerf to condi that's the big thing here, it's the overall meta change? That makes sense, I myself with my limited experience have noticed that firebrands tend to kitten me up the most, if the meta is swinging in a direction that makes them more prevalent it makes sense that would hurt condi mirage alot. That is unfortunate, the condi version of mesmer is the only one I found fun, I've dabbled with the power/shatter variations and to me they just weren't as fun to play. It is good to know that there will still be viable builds with different weapons tho, if I can't find another spec I like might just stick it out with that. To me the mesmer class is far and away the coolest in theme, the idea of screwing with your enemies perception of reality with clones and phantasms is just such an awesome concept.

    Thanks for replying mate, I appreciate the info.

  • @Rambo.9280 said:
    That is unfortunate, the condi version of mesmer is the only one I found fun, I've dabbled with the power/shatter variations and to me they just weren't as fun to play.

    You can play power mirage in a similar fashion to condi mirage if you take advantage of infinite horizon and do not shatter too much

  • Yeah this guy is completely wrong. If they’re changing the ambush on dodge to an f4 skill it will be useless.

  • Also how about post the nerfs on your thread so people know what your eyes on about

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trepidation Lost.3469 said:
    Yeah this guy is completely wrong. If they’re changing the ambush on dodge to an f4 skill it will be useless.

    instead of calling me wrong, visit https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91447/potential-future-balance-changes-pvp#latest and educate yourself.
    clear as day there.

    Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
    Phantasmal Warlock:

    Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
    Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
    Chaos Vortex:

    Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
    Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
    Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rambo.9280 said:
    So it's not as much the direct nerf to condi that's the big thing here, it's the overall meta change? That makes sense, I myself with my limited experience have noticed that firebrands tend to kitten me up the most, if the meta is swinging in a direction that makes them more prevalent it makes sense that would hurt condi mirage alot. That is unfortunate, the condi version of mesmer is the only one I found fun, I've dabbled with the power/shatter variations and to me they just weren't as fun to play. It is good to know that there will still be viable builds with different weapons tho, if I can't find another spec I like might just stick it out with that. To me the mesmer class is far and away the coolest in theme, the idea of screwing with your enemies perception of reality with clones and phantasms is just such an awesome concept.

    Thanks for replying mate, I appreciate the info.

    For all we know 3x FB might become a thing, and cmirage will be literally useless piece of kitten.
    If firebrand screws with you the most imagine dealing less damage and having less clones, cmirage depends on meta. Its one of the most hard counterable specs I know.
    FB and Thief can make you suffer big time.

  • Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2019

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    maybe because they never nerfed mirage only mesmers and chronos

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

    As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

    To be fair the master tier of the mirage traitline is pretty good. And Daredevil also got the exhaustion treatment.

    And just wondering, which condi cleanses were you running ? Because condi mirage is a rather hard matchup for power mirage

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

    As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

    And i have killed decent condi mirages on a lot of builds with minimal cleansing. killing a few bad players doesnt determine the strength of a class.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trepidation Lost.3469 said:
    Yeah this guy is completely wrong. If they’re changing the ambush on dodge to an f4 skill it will be useless.

    Please tell me that's a PvP only change? Because this mechanic is literally what makes mirages mirages... Without heavy ambush play, it's essentially just a condi-shatter-mesmer with better clone generation.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2019

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

    As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

    And i have killed decent condi mirages on a lot of builds with minimal cleansing. killing a few bad players doesnt determine the strength of a class.

    A very strong build will fair well even in the hands of a bad player.

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

    As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

    To be fair the master tier of the mirage traitline is pretty good. And Daredevil also got the exhaustion treatment.

    And just wondering, which condi cleanses were you running ? Because condi mirage is a rather hard matchup for power mirage

    DD can do well with exhaustion since they have ways to bypass it with endurance gaining skills, exhaustion on dd at max is 2 sec below EM.

    Only Jaunt.

    Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.
    Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.
    Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

    The degenerate

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Gryxis.6950 said:
    To be fair the master tier of the mirage traitline is pretty good. And Daredevil also got the exhaustion treatment.

    DD can do well with exhaustion since they have ways to bypass it with endurance gaining skills, exhaustion on dd at max is 2 sec below EM.

    Furthermore, daredevil spend most time with this perma speed + better mobility trait untouched during most HoT perdiod, it gain exhaustion only at the very end.
    Mean I tested it in WvW back in time during HoT I was basically unkillable.
    Differents class, different delay before nerfs...

  • When are the nerfs and what are the proposed changes

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.
    Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.
    Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

    Mirage Mantle should be worse than companion's defense. Companion's defense only gets activated on a dodge roll, while False oasis, Sand through glass, crystal sands (even tho no one ever will use that skill) and illusionary ambush all proc mirage mantle

    Desert distorsion definitely isn't meh. If you shatter 3 clones to use it you look at 4s of access to ambushes, so up to 2 ambushes on all weapons and up to 3 on sword (and trident i guess). But you also get access to three mirage mirrors, so 2.25s of dodges, plus three ambushes for you and your clones. Obviously you need to go through the mirrors for that, but jaunt makes it really easy. I guess it could be low impact if you shatter too defensively (as in you don't have enough clones up, or you are stun and won't be able to use ambush) but just because a trait does not work in any situation does not mean it's meh.

    I haven't played much with mirror axes as I'm not really into the condi mirage, but the trait felt really strong to me. I can see why you wouldn't want that interaction to happen tho. Reminds me of desperate decoy which can also works against you as it cancels your skills. I still think it's a fine trait overall tho, especially since condi mirage definitely doesn't need the stealth as much as power mirage does

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.
    Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.
    Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

    Mirage Mantle should be worse than companion's defense. Companion's defense only gets activated on a dodge roll, while False oasis, Sand through glass, crystal sands (even tho no one ever will use that skill) and illusionary ambush all proc mirage mantle

    Desert distorsion definitely isn't meh. If you shatter 3 clones to use it you look at 4s of access to ambushes, so up to 2 ambushes on all weapons and up to 3 on sword (and trident i guess). But you also get access to three mirage mirrors, so 2.25s of dodges, plus three ambushes for you and your clones. Obviously you need to go through the mirrors for that, but jaunt makes it really easy. I guess it could be low impact if you shatter too defensively (as in you don't have enough clones up, or you are stun and won't be able to use ambush) but just because a trait does not work in any situation does not mean it's meh.

    I haven't played much with mirror axes as I'm not really into the condi mirage, but the trait felt really strong to me. I can see why you wouldn't want that interaction to happen tho. Reminds me of desperate decoy which can also works against you as it cancels your skills. I still think it's a fine trait overall tho, especially since condi mirage definitely doesn't need the stealth as much as power mirage does

    It shouldn't. First of all Companion's defense is a minor, then comes with a free minor endurance gain upgrade.
    Than all those skills except FA are garbage and mirrors are garbage as well, makes you predictable af.

    Not a lot of times you get 3 mirrors from DD ( I guess you can if you don't shatter offensively), but then again mirrors are trash, having to waste an ability to get into a mirror is a no no in my view.

    As for the axes the problem is mainly stealth breaking.

    The degenerate

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.
    Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.
    Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

    Mirage Mantle should be worse than companion's defense. Companion's defense only gets activated on a dodge roll, while False oasis, Sand through glass, crystal sands (even tho no one ever will use that skill) and illusionary ambush all proc mirage mantle

    Desert distorsion definitely isn't meh. If you shatter 3 clones to use it you look at 4s of access to ambushes, so up to 2 ambushes on all weapons and up to 3 on sword (and trident i guess). But you also get access to three mirage mirrors, so 2.25s of dodges, plus three ambushes for you and your clones. Obviously you need to go through the mirrors for that, but jaunt makes it really easy. I guess it could be low impact if you shatter too defensively (as in you don't have enough clones up, or you are stun and won't be able to use ambush) but just because a trait does not work in any situation does not mean it's meh.

    I haven't played much with mirror axes as I'm not really into the condi mirage, but the trait felt really strong to me. I can see why you wouldn't want that interaction to happen tho. Reminds me of desperate decoy which can also works against you as it cancels your skills. I still think it's a fine trait overall tho, especially since condi mirage definitely doesn't need the stealth as much as power mirage does

    It shouldn't. First of all Companion's defense is a minor, then comes with a free minor endurance gain upgrade.
    Than all those skills except FA are garbage and mirrors are garbage as well, makes you predictable af.

    Not a lot of times you get 3 mirrors from DD ( I guess you can if you don't shatter offensively), but then again mirrors are trash, having to waste an ability to get into a mirror is a no no in my view.

    As for the axes the problem is mainly stealth breaking.

    axes are bad becouse they are proj on melee weapon, becouse they lock you into long animations that dont have strong hits of other classes, becouse axes reveal you, becouse they multihit so retal kitten you over, becouse axe clones are melee so they run like lambs to the sloughter, becouse axe 3 is kitten and it WILL lose you games.
    and other reasons that I forgot of the top of my head.

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    It shouldn't. First of all Companion's defense is a minor, then comes with a free minor endurance gain upgrade.
    Than all those skills except FA are garbage and mirrors are garbage as well, makes you predictable af.

    The only skill among those that's garbage is crystal sands. Sand Through glass is a bit weak, but definitely not garbage, illusionary ambush is fine, and false oasis is really strong (let's face it it's one of the strongest healing skill in this game). And yeah it's predictable because this trait is predictable. And this trait in itself is inherently stronger on mirage than on ranger, not just because you get access to it more often but because on mirage the amount of time you get hit by your ennemy and have to dodge defensively is lower than on ranger, making each second of protection more impactful.

    Not a lot of times you get 3 mirrors from DD ( I guess you can if you don't shatter offensively), but then again mirrors are trash, having to waste an ability to get into a mirror is a no no in my view.

    I always get 3 mirrors from DD, it's really easy to do actually considering all the clone generation mirage has access to (thanks mostly to deceptive evasion). I really fail to see how a dodge + ambush that applies weakness around is trash but oh well. Also you don't need to use any ability to get into a mirror, it just helps to do it faster. And it's not wasting an ability if you were to use it without a mirror to kite your ennemy. And Desert Distorsion isn't just about getting the mirrors, but also getting an access to ambush when you're under distorsion (which is very handy on sword, and there's a lot of synergy with the inspiration traitline).

  • I think everyone misses the point and real issue. Mirage ruined Mesmer. The real issue you have with these nerfs? There not direct nerds to mirage. Instead there nerfs to Mesmer that actually affect core and chrono more than the intended mirage...... think how poor chrono clone generation will be now and how they can hardly shatter already. A net nerf the wrong things and make the wrong design choices in this case. Yes mirage is a noob killer, was ci OP? Only on mirage. Pretty much everything claimed to be OP has only been OP on mirage due to its mechanics. That’s why we currently have no diversity. You want the real answer to get balance across Mesmer clones need to be changed dramatically. They should be treated as non destroyable resource or only able to be damaged if directly targeted and balanced accordingly to that. Infinite horizon should be removed or ambushed have separate balancing for clones. Return weapons and core traits to suitable place to make chrono and core viable and nerf mirage back into position to account for core restoration. If an elite is OP nerf the elite only. Not Weapon sets, not skills the elite uses unless there OP across the board. This goes for all professions tbh it’s common sense on balancing. Ps you want to make balancing easy just remove clones give Mesmer clone charges and rebalance condi on weapons. Make phantasm spawn with distortion for its duration and give a clone charge on despawn, clone charges have a visual representation so enemy’s know how many u have, shatters turn those visual representations into real clones that have distortion and super speed running from you to your target. Now u have no more destroyable resource and suffering damage on condi from clones so everything can be balanced properly. Clone mechanic is still part of Mesmer and Mesmer has the QoL it needs for wvw pvp and pve. Have clone charges reset or decay when combat drops too for fairness.

  • @desu.2514 said:
    I think everyone misses the point and real issue. Mirage ruined Mesmer.

    Mirage did not ruin mesmer. Core mesmer, while not very strong, is still viable and what ruined chrono is the loss of IP and distorsion, not the mirage. Power chrono was actually extremely strong before its rework.

    The real issue you have with these nerfs? There not direct nerds to mirage. Instead there nerfs to Mesmer that actually affect core and chrono more than the intended mirage...... think how poor chrono clone generation will be now and how they can hardly shatter already.

    The Chaos Vortex nerf is a nerf to mirage in itself, not chrono or core mesmer. And one of the most egregious things about mirage (condi mirage specifically) is the insane clone generation. The nerfs are fine, anet just need to buff chrono aswell and add something only the core mesmer has access to (maybe an f5 shatter that would make everything the mesmer do ignore the ennemies' boons for 1 to 4s based on the number of clones shattered).

    You want the real answer to get balance across Mesmer clones need to be changed dramatically. They should be treated as non destroyable resource or only able to be damaged if directly targeted and balanced accordingly to that.

    This is a terrible idea. Power mesmer is already quite weak compared to condi mesmer, it would only make it worse. Condi mesmer is the one that would profit the most from having clones that you cannot kill.

    Infinite horizon should be removed or ambushed have separate balancing for clones.

    Infinite horizon already have separate balancing for clones. Except for staff (and axe outside of pve). Just bring the separate balancing to those weapons aswell, but do not remove infinite horizon. This is a really interesting trait, and removing it would make mesmer suffer. The only reason every single mesmer takes it is that other grandmasters are rather bad.

    Return weapons and core traits to suitable place to make chrono and core viable and nerf mirage back into position to account for core restoration. If an elite is OP nerf the elite only. Not Weapon sets, not skills the elite uses unless there OP across the board. This goes for all professions tbh it’s common sense on balancing.

    Actually what makes mirage op (id argue that it's not op anymore but still) is the insane clone generation, and the fact that you and your clones can attack while dodging (and than you can make them dodge). Both combined makes it really easy to have perma 3 clones, and when you do have 3 clones on condi mesmer, even when playing defensively you still have pressure. So it makes condi mirage hard to kill and easy to die to if you lack of condi cleanses. But you can't really nerf the fact that you can attack while dodging without removing it, so you can only nerf the clone generation. The problem is the clone generation do not come from mirage traits and weapons, but from the core mesmer traits and weapons.
    The only clone generation mirage in itself bring is from lingering thoughts (because let's get real no one takes self deception) but the clone generation on axe is actually pretty poor, and nerfing it more would make deceptive evasion even more mandatory than it is and would lower the build diversity.

    Ps you want to make balancing easy just remove clones give Mesmer clone charges and rebalance condi on weapons. Make phantasm spawn with distortion for its duration and give a clone charge on despawn, clone charges have a visual representation so enemy’s know how many u have, shatters turn those visual representations into real clones that have distortion and super speed running from you to your target. Now u have no more destroyable resource and suffering damage on condi from clones so everything can be balanced properly. Clone mechanic is still part of Mesmer and Mesmer has the QoL it needs for wvw pvp and pve. Have clone charges reset or decay when combat drops too for fairness.

    So I take it you're suggesting that mesmer only generate clones from phantasms now, but you can't destroy them ? That would feel extremely clunky and would make mesmer really slow to play. Creating one or two clones every 20 seconds even if they can't get destroyed is not enough if you use your shatters, and condi mesmers would play even more passively with this change because shattering would be a huge punishment for them, and if they don't shatter you can't do anything against their clones when facing them. This kind of change would make the game worse for everyone

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why do people keep saying Mirage clone generation is a problem?

    If you take the standard pvp meta build then you have the same clone generation as core and chrono. The only outlier is nomads endurance but that 1.5s of vigor per shatter is not a game changer.

    I’m fine with them reducing the phantasm and clone generation from staff and scepter but I’m not fine with the 50% damage nerf to staff. I suppose I’ll be fine with it if they really turn it into a utility weapon - starting with staff 4 chaos armor getting a rework.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    It shouldn't. First of all Companion's defense is a minor, then comes with a free minor endurance gain upgrade.
    Than all those skills except FA are garbage and mirrors are garbage as well, makes you predictable af.

    The only skill among those that's garbage is crystal sands. Sand Through glass is a bit weak, but definitely not garbage, illusionary ambush is fine, and false oasis is really strong (let's face it it's one of the strongest healing skill in this game). And yeah it's predictable because this trait is predictable. And this trait in itself is inherently stronger on mirage than on ranger, not just because you get access to it more often but because on mirage the amount of time you get hit by your ennemy and have to dodge defensively is lower than on ranger, making each second of protection more impactful.

    Not a lot of times you get 3 mirrors from DD ( I guess you can if you don't shatter offensively), but then again mirrors are trash, having to waste an ability to get into a mirror is a no no in my view.

    I always get 3 mirrors from DD, it's really easy to do actually considering all the clone generation mirage has access to (thanks mostly to deceptive evasion). I really fail to see how a dodge + ambush that applies weakness around is trash but oh well. Also you don't need to use any ability to get into a mirror, it just helps to do it faster. And it's not wasting an ability if you were to use it without a mirror to kite your ennemy. And Desert Distorsion isn't just about getting the mirrors, but also getting an access to ambush when you're under distorsion (which is very handy on sword, and there's a lot of synergy with the inspiration traitline).

    StG is kitten, it barely gets you out of melee range, the evade uptime is short and the fact that it spawns a mirror on the place where you activate the skill makes it useless (I know Curunen likes the skill).
    IA would be fine if the CD wasn't overkill and it didn't port you to the most dangerous places half the time, why the heck would I waste a slot on it if I could just use SoM who is vastly superior.
    It's not stronger on mirage, on ranger with just one trait you've perma-vigor and like you said rangers use dodge defensively meaning each time they dodge they make use of protection. On mirage on the other hand if you dodge for ambush you're wasting protection.

    It's like I said, if you use shatters offensively you will decrease the amount of times you get 3 mirrors a lot. Distortion is a "oh kitten" button, you don't use it for mirrors.
    Plus, again, mirrors are garbage who are only on game because the balance devs though the mirror design was cool. By running to mirrors you become predictable.
    Weakness and damage are 180 radius and again the most predictable mechanic on game.

    The degenerate

  • @phokus.8934 said:
    Why do people keep saying Mirage clone generation is a problem?

    If you take the standard pvp meta build then you have the same clone generation as core and chrono. The only outlier is nomads endurance but that 1.5s of vigor per shatter is not a game changer.

    It has the same clone generation but clones live longer on mirage as they can dodge (and also get tped thanks to axe 3 or illusionary ambush). Unlike on core mesmer and chrono, you can keep those clones alive which changes everything.

    I’m fine with them reducing the phantasm and clone generation from staff and scepter but I’m not fine with the 50% damage nerf to staff. I suppose I’ll be fine with it if they really turn it into a utility weapon - starting with staff 4 chaos armor getting a rework.

    I agree that staff 4 could benefit from a change, and I think that the 50% condi duration nerf of chaos vortex is a bit overkill and should have only been applied to clones (making the staff in line with other weapons), but a 50% condi duration nerf of one of the staff skills isn't a 50% damage nerf to staff. Even if it was a 50% condi duration nerf to all of staff skills, it wouldn't be a 50% damage nerf as long as condi cleanses exist.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    StG is kitten, it barely gets you out of melee range, the evade uptime is short and the fact that it spawns a mirror on the place where you activate the skill makes it useless (I know Curunen likes the skill).
    IA would be fine if the CD wasn't overkill and it didn't port you to the most dangerous places half the time, why the heck would I waste a slot on it if I could just use SoM who is vastly superior.

    I think I already explained enough why both of those skills are decent. SoM might be more reliable than IA, but there are less ways to use it, and IA doesn't get hard countered by reveal like SoM does.

    It's not stronger on mirage, on ranger with just one trait you've perma-vigor and like you said rangers use dodge defensively meaning each time they dodge they make use of protection. On mirage on the other hand if you dodge for ambush you're wasting protection.

    As I said, ranger take damage for way longer than mirages in an actual fight. It makes each second of protection less impactful on ranger than it is on mirage.

    It's like I said, if you use shatters offensively you will decrease the amount of times you get 3 mirrors a lot. Distortion is a "oh kitten" button, you don't use it for mirrors.

    If you only use distorsion defensively that's a mistake on your part. The mirrors aren't the strongest part of distorsion (and they shouldn't ever be considering how strong distorsion is) so you won't use it just for the mirrors, but almost single time I use distorsion I have 3 clones up. It allows you to have a huge window where you can do what you want and your ennemy cannot do anything about it (as other invuln in this game usually block your access to your other skills, or do not prevent you from being cced).

    Plus, again, mirrors are garbage who are only on game because the balance devs though the mirror design was cool. By running to mirrors you become predictable.

    Warrior getting immuned to damage at 50% hp is extremely predictible, it doesn't mean it's weak. Predictible doesn't mean it's garbage, and a 3/4seconds dodge that you can have 3 times thanks to a single trait (plus up to 8.5s of access to ambush skills) isn't garbage because it's predictable. If it is then most mechanics in this game are garbage then.

    Weakness and damage are 180 radius and again the most predictable mechanic on game.

    I'm not arguing that the weakness and the damage are good, but it's just something more than the mirrors have going for themselves.

  • I’m suggesting clones don’t exist as actual damaging entity’s and are replaced as a visual representation. Anything that would now make a clone now gives Mesmer a clone charge as a resource max 3. Using shatter skill depleted clone charges with same affect as now and spawns x clones from the Mesmer with distortion and super speed targeted at your current target. The hard part of balance is that clones apply condi, so do you balance the condi for having 3 clones alive that makes condi underpowered in some situation or balance condi for no clone that makes it OP in other situations. This fixes that issue and makes it easy to balance in comparison. Also this fixes the problem of Mesmer shatters being useless around aoe or cleave, same for distortion on phantasm. Name a skill from another class that can be destroyed. Imagine meter shower being cancelled because a necro dropped a well on the same cast point ect or warrior skills being stopped by a auto attack.

  • More so imagine warriors loosing adrenaline for taking damage and necros loosing shroud hp for moving. This is the equivalent of clones being destroyable. The resource for your class mechanic being able to be taken away. Replace infinite horizon to fit the new mechanic, there are endless options for equally interesting trait replacements

  • @desu.2514 said:
    I’m suggesting clones don’t exist as actual damaging entity’s and are replaced as a visual representation. Anything that would now make a clone now gives Mesmer a clone charge as a resource max 3. Using shatter skill depleted clone charges with same affect as now and spawns x clones from the Mesmer with distortion and super speed targeted at your current target. The hard part of balance is that clones apply condi, so do you balance the condi for having 3 clones alive that makes condi underpowered in some situation or balance condi for no clone that makes it OP in other situations. This fixes that issue and makes it easy to balance in comparison.

    So I guess I misunderstood you. However I still do not wish to see this change implemented. I think killing the mesmer clones to lower his damage is an interesting mechanic. I guess it wouldn't hurt to reduce the aoe damage taken from the clones, as it can be a bit of a problem especially when facing a greatsword warrior (gs 3 killing all of my clones each time i'm not on mirage can feel a bit unfair). Also as you said it will be very tricky to balance condi mesmer around this (though i guess it should be feasible)

    Also this fixes the problem of Mesmer shatters being useless around aoe or cleave, same for distortion on phantasm. Name a skill from another class that can be destroyed. Imagine meter shower being cancelled because a necro dropped a well on the same cast point ect or warrior skills being stopped by a auto attack.
    More so imagine warriors loosing adrenaline for taking damage and necros loosing shroud hp for moving. This is the equivalent of clones being destroyable. The resource for your class mechanic being able to be taken away. Replace infinite horizon to fit the new mechanic, there are endless options for equally interesting trait replacements

    Actually mesmer isn't the only class that can have its ressource destroyed. There is also ranger and necromancer (except for scourge).

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @desu.2514 said:
    I’m suggesting clones don’t exist as actual damaging entity’s and are replaced as a visual representation. Anything that would now make a clone now gives Mesmer a clone charge as a resource max 3. Using shatter skill depleted clone charges with same affect as now and spawns x clones from the Mesmer with distortion and super speed targeted at your current target. The hard part of balance is that clones apply condi, so do you balance the condi for having 3 clones alive that makes condi underpowered in some situation or balance condi for no clone that makes it OP in other situations. This fixes that issue and makes it easy to balance in comparison.

    So I guess I misunderstood you. However I still do not wish to see this change implemented. I think killing the mesmer clones to lower his damage is an interesting mechanic. I guess it wouldn't hurt to reduce the aoe damage taken from the clones, as it can be a bit of a problem especially when facing a greatsword warrior (gs 3 killing all of my clones each time i'm not on mirage can feel a bit unfair). Also as you said it will be very tricky to balance condi mesmer around this (though i guess it should be feasible)

    Also this fixes the problem of Mesmer shatters being useless around aoe or cleave, same for distortion on phantasm. Name a skill from another class that can be destroyed. Imagine meter shower being cancelled because a necro dropped a well on the same cast point ect or warrior skills being stopped by a auto attack.
    More so imagine warriors loosing adrenaline for taking damage and necros loosing shroud hp for moving. This is the equivalent of clones being destroyable. The resource for your class mechanic being able to be taken away. Replace infinite horizon to fit the new mechanic, there are endless options for equally interesting trait replacements

    Actually mesmer isn't the only class that can have its ressource destroyed. There is also ranger and necromancer (except for scourge).

    you cant destroy necromancers resource, they have to enter shroud, and if they enter shroud they get its rewards, most importantly it blocks damage.
    BIG issue with clones is that they proc things for oponents, necros build shroud on it, warriors get adrenaline and heal on them.
    its not fun when warriors gs3 throught your clones, you evade. but he gets healed for 1k and gets might, while he destroys your stuff, doesnt matter that you dodged, kitten you anyways. Thats why IH is a good trait that should be kept in the game, and dont get me started on holo, I actually tried to fight this monstrocity when trying out chrono builds, corona butt is 100% to land on something due to clones, your CC doesnt matter, you just get run over he doesnt have to dodge anything, if you trade blows you lose, if you evade you run out of evades and die to autos anyways, your hard hitters hit less then his autos, your CC doesnt work becouse permastab, he has more mobility so you cant run, he can counter your blocks with plb. if somehow by the grace of the gods you manage to get a lead he just resets and you are kitten anyways.

  • I can partially agree on ranger pets, necro shroud is used that way though if shroud was lost from damage while in normal form then yes but it’s not xD thankfully as that would be bs for necro. I Main in Mesmer since I started gw. Clones as they are atm are just a failed mechanic at this point unfortunately. Needs reworking to something similar as I suggested. IH could let u store ambush charges or or give ambush a boost dependant upon how many clone charges u have

  • @phokus.8934 said:
    Why do people keep saying Mirage clone generation is a problem?

    If you take the standard pvp meta build then you have the same clone generation as core and chrono. The only outlier is nomads endurance but that 1.5s of vigor per shatter is not a game changer.

    I’m fine with them reducing the phantasm and clone generation from staff and scepter but I’m not fine with the 50% damage nerf to staff. I suppose I’ll be fine with it if they really turn it into a utility weapon - starting with staff 4 chaos armor getting a rework.

    Its more of a problem with mirage than core or chrono because of the infinite horizon trait. Condi mirage clones do a lot more damage because of ambush skills. 3 staff clones can do around 1k dps with auto attacks, and over 2k dps with ambush. Its pretty easy to always have 2-3 clones out, which gives condi mirages a lot of passive damage and condi pressure.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.
    Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.
    Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

    >

    I haven't played much with mirror axes as I'm not really into the condi mirage, but the trait felt really strong to me.

    I run DPS Mirage and run this trait. Axe #3 alone is worth it imo.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2019

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    StG is kitten, it barely gets you out of melee range, the evade uptime is short and the fact that it spawns a mirror on the place where you activate the skill makes it useless (I know Curunen likes the skill).
    IA would be fine if the CD wasn't overkill and it didn't port you to the most dangerous places half the time, why the heck would I waste a slot on it if I could just use SoM who is vastly superior.

    I think I already explained enough why both of those skills are decent. SoM might be more reliable than IA, but there are less ways to use it, and IA doesn't get hard countered by reveal like SoM does.

    It's not stronger on mirage, on ranger with just one trait you've perma-vigor and like you said rangers use dodge defensively meaning each time they dodge they make use of protection. On mirage on the other hand if you dodge for ambush you're wasting protection.

    As I said, ranger take damage for way longer than mirages in an actual fight. It makes each second of protection less impactful on ranger than it is on mirage.

    It's like I said, if you use shatters offensively you will decrease the amount of times you get 3 mirrors a lot. Distortion is a "oh kitten" button, you don't use it for mirrors.

    If you only use distorsion defensively that's a mistake on your part. The mirrors aren't the strongest part of distorsion (and they shouldn't ever be considering how strong distorsion is) so you won't use it just for the mirrors, but almost single time I use distorsion I have 3 clones up. It allows you to have a huge window where you can do what you want and your ennemy cannot do anything about it (as other invuln in this game usually block your access to your other skills, or do not prevent you from being cced).

    Plus, again, mirrors are garbage who are only on game because the balance devs though the mirror design was cool. By running to mirrors you become predictable.

    Warrior getting immuned to damage at 50% hp is extremely predictible, it doesn't mean it's weak. Predictible doesn't mean it's garbage, and a 3/4seconds dodge that you can have 3 times thanks to a single trait (plus up to 8.5s of access to ambush skills) isn't garbage because it's predictable. If it is then most mechanics in this game are garbage then.

    Weakness and damage are 180 radius and again the most predictable mechanic on game.

    I'm not arguing that the weakness and the damage are good, but it's just something more than the mirrors have going for themselves.

    On the contrary you can use SoM for more stuff since it is a stunbreak, stealth, blinds and has the passive expertise boost.

    That doesn't makes sense to me, if ranger takes more damage protection should be more impactful not less.

    I only use distortion defensively, I would never waste 3 clones and a life saving skill ofensively.
    War getting immune at 50% is passive, if you've mirrors on the ground you would never reach them unless you blowed dodge/jaunt/blink or whatever, if fighting a semi-competent player. Giving away the position is bad in mmos.

    The degenerate

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    On the contrary you can use SoM for more stuff since it is a stunbreak, stealth, blinds and has the passive expertise boost.

    Illusionary ambush is a teleport, a detarget, and an access to mirage cloak. In the number of effect it has it is actually close to SoM. But the number of effect it has is not what I was arguing. Especially since every effect of Illusionary ambush makes the skill worth using (while you won't use SoM just for the blind or passive effect). You can use SoM as a stunbreak, defensively, or to set up a burst easier on sword/gs. Illusionary ambush, on the other way, can be used in more ways. As a tp, as a detarget, as a dodge or as a way to put some pressure on your ennemy with your ambush, ambush which changes depending on which weapons you are holding. So there is more ways to use it than there is for signet of midnight. However if you have blurred inscriptions and desert distorsion traited, then SoM will def be more versatile.

    That doesn't makes sense to me, if ranger takes more damage protection should be more impactful not less.

    I wasn't talking about the amount of damage but the time spent taking damage. Let's say that ranger is taking damage for twice as long as a mirage is (i truly do not think that mirage is taking damage for more than half the time a ranger would in most fights). So if a ranger is taking 15s of damage, the mirage will take 7.5s of damage. During those 15s, the ranger will do 3 or 4 dodges, same for the mirage but one of those might be used totally offensively so the protection will have no impact there. So let's put the ranger at 3.5 dodges and the mirage at 2.5. So the ranger has 7s of protection, and 2.625s of dodges. It leaves him with 5.4 seconds without both. The mirage will have 3.75s of protection and 1.875s of dodges. He will be at 1.9s without both.
    Now I'm not arguing that it happens that way each time and that rangers always take damage twice the time mirages do, but maybe you'll see more the point I'm making.

    I only use distortion defensively, I would never waste 3 clones and a life saving skill ofensively.

    That's a huge mistake you're making then. Mesmer is one of those class where if they get the advantage over you, it will be very hard to get it back (except maybe on guardian and elementalist). And if you use distorsion while you have 3 clones up, you're free to do what you want to do during four seconds. Distorsion is the only true invulnerability in this game along with the elementalist focus 5. You really have to screw up to be unable to take the advantage, especially on power mirage), unless your ennemy reads what you want to do and play really defensively. But not every class is able to do that without preparation, and in the end if you run desert distorsion you will still have 3 mirrors that will help you get the advantage even more.
    I tend to open a fight with traited gs4. If I can manage to have 3 clones to shatter with f4 the moment gs4 is up again, I'm almost sure to win the fight, except as I said against a guardian or a weaver (other elementalist are not a problem for mirages).

    War getting immune at 50% is passive, if you've mirrors on the ground you would never reach them unless you blowed dodge/jaunt/blink or whatever, if fighting a semi-competent player. Giving away the position is bad in mmos.

    I do fight competent players quite often and I still can reach my mirrors quite often. They rarely form at 1k range from where I am. The only way for them to form far away is from crystal sands (but why would you run that, and even if you did why would you make them this far from you) and desert distorsion, but thanks to distorsion you have quite a few seconds where you can go very close to your mirrors and your ennemy can't do anything about it.

  • @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    Calling CMirage one of the "strongest" overstates its usefulness. If it was actually 'one of the strongest" the top 10 would have multiple cmirages in it but it doesn't. Also the only reason CMirage isnt already a dead spec isn't from lack of nerfs, its from overall balance changes to all classes that kept Cmirage viable as a spec for pvp. What I mean is, the nerfs to CMirage didnt happen in a bubble. Other specs got changes during the same time frame, tho not always in the same patches. This is IMO why Mesmer in general isn't totally dead in pvp at this point, and others too for that matter. In other words, In my view the only way your statement makes sense is when you look at CMirage in a vacuum ignoring other specs/classes.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

    As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

    I would say CMirage is much harder to play now. Like Lincolnbeard said, they are very counterable by competent players and have been for quite a while now. Again imo the only reason its still viable is due to overall balance changes that has allowed cmirage to stay around. Back when CMirage was WAY over-tuned like around 2 years ago many other specs where also WAY over-tuned.

    As for desert distortion. Its not totally useless I have run it before, however, its a trade off like anything. Personally, I find the protection on dodge to be more useful in duels and it doesn't limit my mobility by forcing me to stay near the mirrors. Overall I found it to me kinda meh and have kinda given up on using it for pvp.

  • @Moradorin.6217 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    Calling CMirage one of the "strongest" overstates its usefulness. If it was actually 'one of the strongest" the top 10 would have multiple cmirages in it but it doesn't. Also the only reason CMirage isnt already a dead spec isn't from lack of nerfs, its from overall balance changes to all classes that kept Cmirage viable as a spec for pvp. What I mean is, the nerfs to CMirage didnt happen in a bubble. Other specs got changes during the same time frame, tho not always in the same patches. This is IMO why Mesmer in general isn't totally dead in pvp at this point, and others too for that matter. In other words, In my view the only way your statement makes sense is when you look at CMirage in a vacuum ignoring other specs/classes.

    Of all the builds commonly used in pvp, yes condi mirage is still one of the strongest. The OP stated that they were a new player, so it doesnt make sense to use veteran players who play the leaderboard as a benchmark for what is strong or viable. Mirage might not have the damage or synergy required to be a meta pick for duo que in the high ranks, but it remains a strong build that is very forgiving for new players.

  • Still doesn’t make any sense to nerf weapon sets that affects all Mesmer instead of mirage only changes xD. Considering Mesmer we called degenerates it seems the balance team are actually the degenerates for not knowing how to make accurate changes to increase diversity. I had to laugh at the latest notes engi and ele can swap weapon out of combat rofl it’s nice QoL but sounds silly when u can just click the weapon from inventory. Will be interesting to see how it works in pvp though I won’t be bothering as mirage is a bore fest and core plus chrono already underpowered taking clone gen hit for no reason

  • @desu.2514 said:
    Still doesn’t make any sense to nerf weapon sets that affects all Mesmer instead of mirage only changes xD. Considering Mesmer we called degenerates it seems the balance team are actually the degenerates for not knowing how to make accurate changes to increase diversity. I had to laugh at the latest notes engi and ele can swap weapon out of combat rofl it’s nice QoL but sounds silly when u can just click the weapon from inventory. Will be interesting to see how it works in pvp though I won’t be bothering as mirage is a bore fest and core plus chrono already underpowered taking clone gen hit for no reason

    They're already doing some mirage only nerfs, they're just nerfing aswell the weapons. And they're doing that because the part they're nerfing is what makes mirage too strong. Considering they're already nerfing the ambush, what else would you nerf on mirage ? Cuz I don't see it

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @desu.2514 said:
    Still doesn’t make any sense to nerf weapon sets that affects all Mesmer instead of mirage only changes xD. Considering Mesmer we called degenerates it seems the balance team are actually the degenerates for not knowing how to make accurate changes to increase diversity. I had to laugh at the latest notes engi and ele can swap weapon out of combat rofl it’s nice QoL but sounds silly when u can just click the weapon from inventory. Will be interesting to see how it works in pvp though I won’t be bothering as mirage is a bore fest and core plus chrono already underpowered taking clone gen hit for no reason

    They're already doing some mirage only nerfs, they're just nerfing aswell the weapons. And they're doing that because the part they're nerfing is what makes mirage too strong. Considering they're already nerfing the ambush, what else would you nerf on mirage ? Cuz I don't see it

    Propably Renewing Oasis, to make it even worse but still somewhat playable. and then follow up with a big hammer to IH and make shatters garbage.
    Ofc dont buff anything and leave spec chronomancered.
    calling it now :D

  • Flandre.2870Flandre.2870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    Not much will change tbh

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    @Moradorin.6217 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    Calling CMirage one of the "strongest" overstates its usefulness. If it was actually 'one of the strongest" the top 10 would have multiple cmirages in it but it doesn't. Also the only reason CMirage isnt already a dead spec isn't from lack of nerfs, its from overall balance changes to all classes that kept Cmirage viable as a spec for pvp. What I mean is, the nerfs to CMirage didnt happen in a bubble. Other specs got changes during the same time frame, tho not always in the same patches. This is IMO why Mesmer in general isn't totally dead in pvp at this point, and others too for that matter. In other words, In my view the only way your statement makes sense is when you look at CMirage in a vacuum ignoring other specs/classes.

    Of all the builds commonly used in pvp, yes condi mirage is still one of the strongest. The OP stated that they were a new player, so it doesnt make sense to use veteran players who play the leaderboard as a benchmark for what is strong or viable. Mirage might not have the damage or synergy required to be a meta pick for duo que in the high ranks, but it remains a strong build that is very forgiving for new players.

    If new players want to be useless in team fights and be the last on their team to die, there are plenty of other builds that can do that.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    @Moradorin.6217 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

    There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

    Calling CMirage one of the "strongest" overstates its usefulness. If it was actually 'one of the strongest" the top 10 would have multiple cmirages in it but it doesn't. Also the only reason CMirage isnt already a dead spec isn't from lack of nerfs, its from overall balance changes to all classes that kept Cmirage viable as a spec for pvp. What I mean is, the nerfs to CMirage didnt happen in a bubble. Other specs got changes during the same time frame, tho not always in the same patches. This is IMO why Mesmer in general isn't totally dead in pvp at this point, and others too for that matter. In other words, In my view the only way your statement makes sense is when you look at CMirage in a vacuum ignoring other specs/classes.

    Of all the builds commonly used in pvp, yes condi mirage is still one of the strongest. The OP stated that they were a new player, so it doesnt make sense to use veteran players who play the leaderboard as a benchmark for what is strong or viable. Mirage might not have the damage or synergy required to be a meta pick for duo que in the high ranks, but it remains a strong build that is very forgiving for new players.

    If new players want to be useless in team fights and be the last on their team to die, there are plenty of other builds that can do that.

    ok

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nothing is going to change as long as they allow clones to inflict this much condition damage.

    Which is the reason why Mirage is so busted and Winds of Chaos needs a big nerf on the clone side so that gameplay becomes actually engaging rather than just letting people AFK while spamming clones to auto attack players from the other side of the map disengaging everytime.

    Clones were never meant to do damage like this and I hope they eventually nerf that damage so Condition Mesmers of all sorts start playing the game.

    They also likely will plan to nerf clone generation because that's something else that got buffed hardcore with the phantasm changes introduction, back then phantasms didn't spawn clones, you had to work and put effort into them. I hope they restore that.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2019

    Double Post from bad Wifi, delete this.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Nothing is going to change as long as they allow clones to inflict this much condition damage.

    Which is the reason why Mirage is so busted and Winds of Chaos needs a big nerf on the clone side so that gameplay becomes actually engaging rather than just letting people AFK while spamming clones to auto attack players from the other side of the map disengaging everytime.

    Clones were never meant to do damage like this and I hope they eventually nerf that damage so Condition Mesmers of all sorts start playing the game.

    They also likely will plan to nerf clone generation because that's something else that got buffed hardcore with the phantasm changes introduction, back then phantasms didn't spawn clones, you had to work and put effort into them. I hope they restore that.

    I hope we get sustain and busted damage of other classes then :D
    would like to hit those 10k hits wile having 19k hp, and toughtness amulets
    or run around with perma 10boons, or have 40s of vigor, cant wait to have those

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Nothing is going to change as long as they allow clones to inflict this much condition damage.

    Which is the reason why Mirage is so busted and Winds of Chaos needs a big nerf on the clone side so that gameplay becomes actually engaging rather than just letting people AFK while spamming clones to auto attack players from the other side of the map disengaging everytime.

    Clones were never meant to do damage like this and I hope they eventually nerf that damage so Condition Mesmers of all sorts start playing the game.

    They also likely will plan to nerf clone generation because that's something else that got buffed hardcore with the phantasm changes introduction, back then phantasms didn't spawn clones, you had to work and put effort into them. I hope they restore that.

    I hope we get sustain and busted damage of other classes then :D
    would like to hit those 10k hits wile having 19k hp, and toughtness amulets
    or run around with perma 10boons, or have 40s of vigor, cant wait to have those

    You can already one shot as a mesmer. Why would you need anything else.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Nothing is going to change as long as they allow clones to inflict this much condition damage.

    Which is the reason why Mirage is so busted and Winds of Chaos needs a big nerf on the clone side so that gameplay becomes actually engaging rather than just letting people AFK while spamming clones to auto attack players from the other side of the map disengaging everytime.

    Clones were never meant to do damage like this and I hope they eventually nerf that damage so Condition Mesmers of all sorts start playing the game.

    They also likely will plan to nerf clone generation because that's something else that got buffed hardcore with the phantasm changes introduction, back then phantasms didn't spawn clones, you had to work and put effort into them. I hope they restore that.

    I hope we get sustain and busted damage of other classes then :D
    would like to hit those 10k hits wile having 19k hp, and toughtness amulets
    or run around with perma 10boons, or have 40s of vigor, cant wait to have those

    You can already one shot as a mesmer. Why would you need anything else.

    becouse others can 1shot, while being tanky ?
    becouse to 1shot people I have to go glass cannon and land 7 abilities, while bruiser spb, deals sama damage with 3?
    so if 1shot gets nerfed, to beat warrior I have to land 5 abilities for his 1?, becouse me landing gs4+gs2+gs3 deals same damage to me as warrior throwing an axe and dodging into me? becouse my hardest hitting powers deal same damage of the lowest damage of others? becouse CC of mesmer deals 0 dmg while others chunks for 6k?

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Nothing is going to change as long as they allow clones to inflict this much condition damage.

    Which is the reason why Mirage is so busted and Winds of Chaos needs a big nerf on the clone side so that gameplay becomes actually engaging rather than just letting people AFK while spamming clones to auto attack players from the other side of the map disengaging everytime.

    Clones were never meant to do damage like this and I hope they eventually nerf that damage so Condition Mesmers of all sorts start playing the game.

    They also likely will plan to nerf clone generation because that's something else that got buffed hardcore with the phantasm changes introduction, back then phantasms didn't spawn clones, you had to work and put effort into them. I hope they restore that.

    I hope we get sustain and busted damage of other classes then :D
    would like to hit those 10k hits wile having 19k hp, and toughtness amulets
    or run around with perma 10boons, or have 40s of vigor, cant wait to have those

    You can already one shot as a mesmer. Why would you need anything else.

    becouse others can 1shot, while being tanky ?
    becouse to 1shot people I have to go glass cannon and land 7 abilities, while bruiser spb, deals sama damage with 3?
    so if 1shot gets nerfed, to beat warrior I have to land 5 abilities for his 1?, becouse me landing gs4+gs2+gs3 deals same damage to me as warrior throwing an axe and dodging into me? becouse my hardest hitting powers deal same damage of the lowest damage of others? becouse CC of mesmer deals 0 dmg while others chunks for 6k?

    I've already covered Warrior FGJ being a crutch before people even knew about it, but that's about it.

    Not that I disagree, but you still have the means to easily counter such builds with all the utility available. Like stealing 20 seconds 25 Might to fight back at them. They got nothing to mitigate damage but evades and you got range, it should be obvious how that match up can end.

    Step out of your comfort zone a little instead of wanting direct upgrades, you already know their strong points, work around them.

    I know Warrior Axe cleave can deal with to 15k critical, that doesn't mean it's gonna hit you everytime or even reach at all. A Demolisher user is definitely not what I'd call tanky considering they have no utility but few stunbreaks and cleanses, hence why some people straight up zerk or diviners.

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rambo.9280 said:
    condi mirage is the first build, of the handful I've tried so far, that has "clicked" with me

    The reason that its the first build that has "clicked" with you is because it is one of if not the easiest builds to play in the entire game. It has a very low skill ceiling and very little room for improvement. You aren't going to become a better player on condition mirage. You will be way better off in the long term going power and learning how to play, or finding another class entirely.