Braham is told he failed? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Braham is told he failed?

In Wishpers in the dark Living world, both Braham's guild mates and Braham himself said he failed.
Failed to kill Jormag. But, aren't we the reason Jormag went back to sleep?
Seems like a stretch to call that a fail.
I guess it either not common knowlendge what the commander and his guild does or that killing the dragons at the time was a bad idea. or the devs forgot about these plot points.

Comments

  • To the Norn, it's an absolute failure. And that's all that matters in his mind.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2019

    What I don’t get is why LS5 is suddenly going with Braham having abandoned everyone. I don’t recall that happening since Jormag went back under the ice so what could he have done?. The wiki page for Braham also says that they went back to but I’m not sure exactly where that specific detail came from.

    Maybe @Konig Des Todes.2086 can provide insight to this?

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    we need recap the LS3 dialogues, and some LS4, .... , in POF braham are near not mentioned at all.

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  • @AzuraBlackcoin.1809 Braham had nothing to do with Jormag going under the ice (not really hibernation, seems more like Jormag and Primordus went into a cocoon state, similar to Kralkatorrik at the end of the Dragonfall meta). So can't really say he didn't fail because he put Jormag to sleep.

    But in the eyes of the norn, Braham was supposed to kill Jormag. Not put him into a state where they're protected but still capable of causing harm to the norn people, kill it. Braham failed (because of Balthazar/Taimi/Commander), and then he left the Far Shiverpeaks with Rox, and then went on to Elona to do completely unrelated stuff. In the norn's eyes, that's giving up, and giving up is a failure.

    @Ayrilana.1396 Braham and Rox abandoned people when they went through Joko's portals. Instead of trying to figure out how to get to Jormag while it was in its cocoon, they "ran away" (in the eyes of the norn) and left to do other things. This isn't coming from a specific place, but is what Braham is shown doing in S4E1.

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  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2019

    Well, to me this looks similar to the drama with Eir's death. They want a bit of drama for Braham's character development, so they jump to an event that more or less fits.
    Nevermind he already came to terms with Eir's death during HoT. Nevermind putting Jormag to sleep was not his fault at all.

    If norn society was really that strict about "failure", we would have seen something similar with Eir earlier. Did she get any backlash for "failing" to kill Kralkatorrik besides from Zojja and her own selfblame? I don't think so. Quite the opposite, she was well respected. Norn may be painted as rather simplistic and straight forward, but they are not stupid and I am sure they should be able to tell what was Braham's doing and what wasn't.
    I'm a bit torn, I do like the overall storytelling, but Braham always seems to get the out-of-nowhere drama... ^^;;

    Edit: Alternative explanation: Braham may be just a terrible judge of character and his so-called friends were all just really awful people. Given how easily he was deceived by Ryland, this may actually not be that far off. So either his ex-guild then badmouthed him and spread rumours of his "failure", or other norns outside his circle don't really think all that badly of him and he just hasn't realized that yet.

  • Imo, parts of the Braham Oathbreaker premise are hard to accept. I can understand how his guild mates would feel abandoned. It is similar to real world guild drama. At most, it shows his guild to be weak and immature and unable to handle Braham leaving. Braham had to leave to find out what was going on with Jormag and he could have gone back to his guild or helped them transition. If he is an oath breaker because he didn't kill Jormag and the world as well, then there is something very wrong with Norn society. How could they shame someone for not destroying the world and be remotely rational or have a coherent or complex ethics system? Would a Norn homestead surrender to death if it allowed the homestead leader to remain true to a promise? It is hard for me to reconcile their nature based ethics system with such stubbornness.
    Hopefully we see different Norn perspectives on Braham's actions and a more nuanced understanding of why Braham is an oath breaker and a failure. What we have now is close to an impossible personality pathology for a species.

    The interactions between the Commaner and Braham are so flat. I understand the studio's goal of making the Commander an any person but doing so ignores the Commander's role in Braham's inability to kill Jormag. I would really like to see them share some branching dialogue that digs into the issue. Braham doesn't have to be the Commander's always loyal, chastised puppy.

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  • @Fenella.2634 said:
    If norn society was really that strict about "failure", we would have seen something similar with Eir earlier. Did she get any backlash for "failing" to kill Kralkatorrik besides from Zojja and her own selfblame? I don't think so. Quite the opposite, she was well respected. Norn may be painted as rather simplistic and straight forward, but they are not stupid and I am sure they should be able to tell what was Braham's doing and what wasn't.

    She DID get banished for failing to kill the Dragonspawn at first, which retaliated and attacked Hoelbrak. That was her big failure. Right now they're shaping up Braham to be like Eir, so I fully expect him to succeed in dealing with Jormag in some form, and being welcomed back by the Norn. Perhaps by finding a way to fight back Jormag's mental corruption.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2019

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Well, to me this looks similar to the drama with Eir's death. They want a bit of drama for Braham's character development, so they jump to an event that more or less fits.
    Nevermind he already came to terms with Eir's death during HoT. Nevermind putting Jormag to sleep was not his fault at all.

    If norn society was really that strict about "failure", we would have seen something similar with Eir earlier. Did she get any backlash for "failing" to kill Kralkatorrik besides from Zojja and her own selfblame? I don't think so. Quite the opposite, she was well respected. Norn may be painted as rather simplistic and straight forward, but they are not stupid and I am sure they should be able to tell what was Braham's doing and what wasn't.
    I'm a bit torn, I do like the overall storytelling, but Braham always seems to get the out-of-nowhere drama... ^^;;

    Edit: Alternative explanation: Braham may be just a terrible judge of character and his so-called friends were all just really awful people. Given how easily he was deceived by Ryland, this may actually not be that far off. So either his ex-guild then badmouthed him and spread rumours of his "failure", or other norns outside his circle don't really think all that badly of him and he just hasn't realized that yet.

    The bolded section has legs. I can picture Braham picking a lot of immature people to join his guild. This approach could turn the focus of failure towards him leaving his guild and turning his back on Norn culture and Hoelbrook. That understanding of his failure wouldn't require Norm be irrational and would allow the studio to explore deeper into the relationship between the Commander and Braham. I would love to see the Commander deal with the guilt.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:
    Remember also that the current generation of Norn all grew up with stories about how someone was going to break the tooth and lead them all to defeat Jormag.

    It's a bit immature, but plenty of Norn, particularly the young hotheads, are going to be immature about such an anticlimactic end to that story. They must have been absolutely pumped after Braham broke the tooth. Braham wasn't just another Norn going off to fight a dragon, he was the freaking Chosen One. He was the heir to Asgeir's legacy.

    I'll bet the Svanir are having a field day recruiting angry, disillusioned, depressed and demoralized Norn. If the tooth was broken and they still failed, the story they all grew up with is over, and Jormag isn't going anywhere. Many of them probably don't see a future without Jormag now. The prophecy is gone.

    The problem I have with all this is you can't say he failed when he not even started to fight Jormag because he needed to fight another ancient dragon in the meantime. Its more like the opposite he is doing more then ' prophecy' foretold.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2019

    just to recap Braham gathered the norms and show them the "sacred fire bow" can hurt Jormag, so its had a "profecie" atsmosphere around it(also theres the norm "legend" that anyone whos can hurt the fang can kill Jormag). Its just no so well developed in the LS3/LS4 dialogues, but theres a room for it, even if wasnt original intention of writers going in that direction.

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  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    What I don’t get is why LS5 is suddenly going with Braham having abandoned everyone. I don’t recall that happening since Jormag went back under the ice so what could he have done?. The wiki page for Braham also says that they went back to but I’m not sure exactly where that specific detail came from.

    Maybe @Konig Des Todes.2086 can provide insight to this?

    After Jormag passed out, Braham immediately headed back south again, later investigating the awoken Portals. He comments on this in Grothmar some. He felt like his guildmates and the spirits of the wild were mocking him/laughing at him and basically ran away.

    According to the wiki, him and his guild all went back south to Hoelbrak after Jormag went back to sleep. It seems that they were there for quite some time before the events of LS4E1. So why are his guild mates all suddenly back north and saying that he abandoned them?

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    What I don’t get is why LS5 is suddenly going with Braham having abandoned everyone. I don’t recall that happening since Jormag went back under the ice so what could he have done?. The wiki page for Braham also says that they went back to but I’m not sure exactly where that specific detail came from.

    Maybe @Konig Des Todes.2086 can provide insight to this?

    After Jormag passed out, Braham immediately headed back south again, later investigating the awoken Portals. He comments on this in Grothmar some. He felt like his guildmates and the spirits of the wild were mocking him/laughing at him and basically ran away.

    According to the wiki, him and his guild all went back south to Hoelbrak after Jormag went back to sleep. It seems that they were there for quite some time before the events of LS4E1. So why are his guild mates all suddenly back north and saying that he abandoned them?

    They could've headed back north, Alva was in vigil gear so presumably she was part of the vigil, or joined up afterwards. The guild could've signed up as part of the vigil to go back North. The "guild" could've been split, with Braham, Rox, and Garm heading south while the others stayed north. Either way, Braham left them behind.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    What I don’t get is why LS5 is suddenly going with Braham having abandoned everyone. I don’t recall that happening since Jormag went back under the ice so what could he have done?. The wiki page for Braham also says that they went back to but I’m not sure exactly where that specific detail came from.

    Maybe @Konig Des Todes.2086 can provide insight to this?

    After Jormag passed out, Braham immediately headed back south again, later investigating the awoken Portals. He comments on this in Grothmar some. He felt like his guildmates and the spirits of the wild were mocking him/laughing at him and basically ran away.

    According to the wiki, him and his guild all went back south to Hoelbrak after Jormag went back to sleep. It seems that they were there for quite some time before the events of LS4E1. So why are his guild mates all suddenly back north and saying that he abandoned them?

    They could've headed back north, Alva was in vigil gear so presumably she was part of the vigil, or joined up afterwards. The guild could've signed up as part of the vigil to go back North. The "guild" could've been split, with Braham, Rox, and Garm heading south while the others stayed north. Either way, Braham left them behind.

    Sounds like retconning.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    According to the wiki, him and his guild all went back south to Hoelbrak after Jormag went back to sleep. It seems that they were there for quite some time before the events of LS4E1. So why are his guild mates all suddenly back north and saying that he abandoned them?

    They could've headed back north, Alva was in vigil gear so presumably she was part of the vigil, or joined up afterwards. The guild could've signed up as part of the vigil to go back North. The "guild" could've been split, with Braham, Rox, and Garm heading south while the others stayed north. Either way, Braham left them behind.

    Sounds like retconning.

    Why? LS4:1 wasn't yesterday. Were they supposed to just sit on their behinds in Hoelbrak and watch the walls all this time? They maybe did for a while, then Braham and Rox left and the rest of the guild (feeling betrayed and abandoned) just went on to do whatever they wanted and ended up north where we met them.

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  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just hope, in the end of the Jormag story, we and Braham jump down Jormag's maw and punch his heart, like we promised in the epilogue of Season 4.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2019

    I think there's more to it than that. We know that Jormag turned Braham's guild into traitors, so they likely created Braham's bad reputation as well in order to coax him into corruption since he is close to the Pact Commander and thus Aurene.

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  • @Fenella.2634 said:
    Well, to me this looks similar to the drama with Eir's death. They want a bit of drama for Braham's character development, so they jump to an event that more or less fits.
    Nevermind he already came to terms with Eir's death during HoT. Nevermind putting Jormag to sleep was not his fault at all.

    If norn society was really that strict about "failure", we would have seen something similar with Eir earlier. Did she get any backlash for "failing" to kill Kralkatorrik besides from Zojja and her own selfblame? I don't think so. Quite the opposite, she was well respected. Norn may be painted as rather simplistic and straight forward, but they are not stupid and I am sure they should be able to tell what was Braham's doing and what wasn't.
    I'm a bit torn, I do like the overall storytelling, but Braham always seems to get the out-of-nowhere drama... ^^;;

    Edit: Alternative explanation: Braham may be just a terrible judge of character and his so-called friends were all just really awful people. Given how easily he was deceived by Ryland, this may actually not be that far off. So either his ex-guild then badmouthed him and spread rumours of his "failure", or other norns outside his circle don't really think all that badly of him and he just hasn't realized that yet.

    Eir actually does get a bit of backlash by some norn. This is most notable in the Ghosts of Ascalon novel, where Gullik talks about Eir and shows visible disappointment with her because after Destiny's Edge, she's given up. Knut's family respects her, as do her friends, but other norn are hit and miss.

    And it isn't "nevermind putting Jormag to sleep was not his fault at all" - it's that he just left after one failure. Counter to Eir, who failed multiple times, even got exiled from Hoelbrak for some of those failures, she didn't go off into distant lands for over a year, she came back within weeks to try again, and eventually succeeded. The only time she went away after failure was with Kralkatorrik - and as mentioned, some norn do hold her in disdain for it.

    And it's likely the same with Braham - some hold him in disdain, others don't.

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Imo, parts of the Braham Oathbreaker premise are hard to accept. I can understand how his guild mates would feel abandoned. It is similar to real world guild drama. At most, it shows his guild to be weak and immature and unable to handle Braham leaving. Braham had to leave to find out what was going on with Jormag and he could have gone back to his guild or helped them transition. If he is an oath breaker because he didn't kill Jormag and the world as well, then there is something very wrong with Norn society. How could they shame someone for not destroying the world and be remotely rational or have a coherent or complex ethics system? Would a Norn homestead surrender to death if it allowed the homestead leader to remain true to a promise? It is hard for me to reconcile their nature based ethics system with such stubbornness.
    Hopefully we see different Norn perspectives on Braham's actions and a more nuanced understanding of why Braham is an oath breaker and a failure. What we have now is close to an impossible personality pathology for a species.

    The interactions between the Commaner and Braham are so flat. I understand the studio's goal of making the Commander an any person but doing so ignores the Commander's role in Braham's inability to kill Jormag. I would really like to see them share some branching dialogue that digs into the issue. Braham doesn't have to be the Commander's always loyal, chastised puppy.

    Do the norn know that killing another Elder Dragon would end the world? As far as we've seen, only Dragon's Watch and maybe the Pact knows this. Given how the charr react to Aurene, it's likely that it isn't common knowledge how important Elder Dragons are to the world's existence, so it makes sense that the norn are seeing "Braham gave up on killing Jormag" and not "Braham gave up on killing Jormag and the world".

    Right now, you're assuming that what the players know = what everyone knows. This is never shown to be the case.

    On top of all that, Braham did give up. He didn't leave to figure things out, and just happened to be brought along a wild ride of killing a different Elder Dragon. He full stop gave up on fighting Jormag.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    According to the wiki, him and his guild all went back south to Hoelbrak after Jormag went back to sleep. It seems that they were there for quite some time before the events of LS4E1. So why are his guild mates all suddenly back north and saying that he abandoned them?

    They could've headed back north, Alva was in vigil gear so presumably she was part of the vigil, or joined up afterwards. The guild could've signed up as part of the vigil to go back North. The "guild" could've been split, with Braham, Rox, and Garm heading south while the others stayed north. Either way, Braham left them behind.

    Sounds like retconning.

    This might be misinterpretation from dev comments before Whisper in the Dark got released, given it was added in preparation for S5. Keep in mind the wiki is written by players, so it is subject to inaccuracies.

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  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    According to the wiki, him and his guild all went back south to Hoelbrak after Jormag went back to sleep. It seems that they were there for quite some time before the events of LS4E1. So why are his guild mates all suddenly back north and saying that he abandoned them?

    They could've headed back north, Alva was in vigil gear so presumably she was part of the vigil, or joined up afterwards. The guild could've signed up as part of the vigil to go back North. The "guild" could've been split, with Braham, Rox, and Garm heading south while the others stayed north. Either way, Braham left them behind.

    Sounds like retconning.

    This might be misinterpretation from dev comments before Whisper in the Dark got released, given it was added in preparation for S5. Keep in mind the wiki is written by players, so it is subject to inaccuracies.

    What I saw on the wiki has been there for almost two years. It looks like Kossage was the one who updated the wiki. Was he embellishing the page with fan fiction?

    My understanding is that Braham cracked the tooth and was going to lead the Norn up north to Jormag. He was convinced to instead send a scouting party which is being referenced as Destiny’s Edge; his guild. When they were about to attack Jormag, it went under the ice to sleep, so they went back to Hoelbrak. This was all before POF. Quite some time had passed between when Jormag went to sleep and the events of LS4E1.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We don't even know what exactly this oath is, his new title (or maybe surname?) is referring too.
    Maybe it's an oath he swore off-screen to nornkind itself, or maybe just his guild.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    According to the wiki, him and his guild all went back south to Hoelbrak after Jormag went back to sleep. It seems that they were there for quite some time before the events of LS4E1. So why are his guild mates all suddenly back north and saying that he abandoned them?

    They could've headed back north, Alva was in vigil gear so presumably she was part of the vigil, or joined up afterwards. The guild could've signed up as part of the vigil to go back North. The "guild" could've been split, with Braham, Rox, and Garm heading south while the others stayed north. Either way, Braham left them behind.

    Sounds like retconning.

    This might be misinterpretation from dev comments before Whisper in the Dark got released, given it was added in preparation for S5. Keep in mind the wiki is written by players, so it is subject to inaccuracies.

    What I saw on the wiki has been there for almost two years. It looks like Kossage was the one who updated the wiki. Was he embellishing the page with fan fiction?

    My understanding is that Braham cracked the tooth and was going to lead the Norn up north to Jormag. He was convinced to instead send a scouting party which is being referenced as Destiny’s Edge; his guild. When they were about to attack Jormag, it went under the ice to sleep, so they went back to Hoelbrak. This was all before POF. Quite some time had passed between when Jormag went to sleep and the events of LS4E1.

    What we had "before PoF" after Braham cracked the tooth was:

    Pact Commander: I'm headed to Divinity's Reach to meet the Queen, but... Have you heard from Braham?
    Taimi: No, sorry. Rox got word through, though. Apparently she talked SOME sense into him. He formed an... exploratory committee, let's say. Taimi: They're making their way up to Jormag as we speak, to see what kind of damage they can do before mobilizing a larger force.
    Taimi: I'm worried about him, Commander. He's calling this group Destiny's Edge.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Meeting_of_Ministers

    Taimi: I've tried to get in touch with him, but he's avoiding me. Rox told me he broke one of Jormag's teeth, and the norn in Hoelbrak have been celebrating ever since. They won't give him any peace.
    Pact Commander: He's determined to go after Jormag. But...
    Taimi: I know. In light of what I discovered, considering how...wrong I was, going after Jormag isn't a good idea. I haven't told him that yet. It's going to be hard to be heard through the norn cheers.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story)

    Taimi: You won't believe what just happened, Commander. Guess. No, never mind, can't wait. Braham sent me a letter.
    Taimi: Would you like me to read it? Of course you would. He says, "Taimi. What did the commander do to Jormag?"
    Taimi: "Destiny's Edge—my guild—had it surrounded, and then... Suddenly, an anguished roar, and it returned to the ice."
    Pact Commander: Stop. Do we have to do this now? I can't deal with both him and Balthazar.
    Taimi: He says the norn want him to kill Jormag. Why oh why did he put his arrow in that tooth?
    Pact Commander: I don't have time for his tantrums. He just didn't think.
    Taimi: And... he didn't ask your permission either.
    Pact Commander: (sigh) I could have protected him from this. He'll either change course, or we'll have to stop him.
    Taimi: But since Jormag's all snoozy, he doesn't have a chance of killing it now, does he?
    Pact Commander: He better not. Talk to him. Maybe you can get him to see reason. It's never too late for him to do the right thing.
    Taimi: I don't know if he has a choice anymore. He's under a lot of pressure to live up to Eir's legend. And, he's so young.
    Pact Commander: Older than you.
    Taimi: Only physically... Taimi out.
    Taimi: Oh, Rox sends her love. Really out.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Flow_of_Magic

    We had no pre-PoF statements that the group returned to Hoelbrak. However, we had something in S4E1:

    Pact Commander: Braham?
    Rox: Commander?
    Braham Eirsson: Of course. Why am I not surprised.
    Rytlock Brimstone: How did you get here?
    Rox: We chased whatever these things are through some portals. Trying to see where they're coming from.
    Canach: Wait— What portals?
    Rox: Isn't that why you're here? Portals have started popping up all over Tyria and spitting out these...things.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Joko's forces are in Tyria?
    Rox: If these shambling rot-piles are his, then yeah— Tyria's teeming with them. But if you're not here for the portals...

    Braham Eirsson: Rox and I were in Hoelbrak trying to figure out how to get to Jormag , since you put him to sleep under a mountain of ice.
    Rox: These portals just started opening up all around the city. Then those..."Awaked," you call them? ...Started pouring out.
    Rox: These were different from normal asura gates. They just seemed to appear out of nowhere.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_First_City

    Technically no statement that Braham's guild went to Hoelbrak. Braham and Rox went back. Braham even states "Rox and I" not "we" or "my guild". Which is rather telling. And is what that line by Kossage's edits was referring to - rather than Kossage "adding fan fiction" it would be more a simple misinterpretation.

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  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2019

    Right, so, after trawling the wiki, here's everything that was said in-game about what went down with Braham's guild between One Path Ends and Bound By Blood:

    One Path Ends (July 2017), "The Flow of Magic", from Taimi: "You won't believe what just happened, Commander. Guess. No, never mind, can't wait. Braham sent me a letter. Would you like me to read it? Of course you would. He says, 'Taimi. What did the commander do to Jormag? Destiny's Edge—my guild—had it surrounded, and then... Suddenly, an anguished roar, and it returned to the ice.' He says the norn want him to kill Jormag. Why oh why did he put his arrow in that tooth?... But since Jormag's all snoozy, he doesn't have a chance of killing it now, does he?... I don't know if he has a choice anymore. He's under a lot of pressure to live up to Eir's legend. And, he's so young."

    Path of Fire (September 2017), "Sparking the Flame", from Rytlock, regarding Braham and Rox: "They're both fine. Still trying to figure out how to kill Jormag, just the two of 'em. I give 'em credit for trying, but they're a bit outclassed."

    Daybreak (November 2017), "The First City", from Braham: "Rox and I were in Hoelbrak trying to figure out how to get to Jormag , since you put him to sleep under a mountain of ice.:

    Bound By Blood (September 2019), "Revels & Rivals", between Braham and Ryland: Braham- "—and then he was gone, sunk beneath the ice. Just me. My guild. Wind howling in our ears. Thought the Spirits were laughing at me. I was so angry." Ryland- Where are they now? Your guild? Braham- "Dunno. Hoelbrak. Shiverpeaks. Doesn't matter." Ryland- They're your warband. It matters. Braham- "You wouldn't understand. Bet nobody's ever looked at you like you were a disappointment. Not in your kitten life."

    Bound By Blood (September 2019), "A Race To Arms", from Braham: "My guild and I...we tried to take back the norn homelands. Thought my bow would be able to take Jormag down, but I never got the chance. I failed them... I left them back in the Shiverpeaks at the nearest Vigil camp. They weren't happy with me."

    Best I can tell, that's everything. Between the Path of Fire and Daybreak quotes, you could loosely infer that Braham's guild didn't come to Hoelbrak with him, but there was never anything solid about their whereabouts in the game itself. I can't speak for out-of-game dev comments, but nothing that actually made it into a release has been contradicted.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AzuraBlackcoin.1809 said:
    In Wishpers in the dark Living world, both Braham's guild mates and Braham himself said he failed.
    Failed to kill Jormag. But, aren't we the reason Jormag went back to sleep?
    Seems like a stretch to call that a fail.
    I guess it either not common knowlendge what the commander and his guild does or that killing the dragons at the time was a bad idea. or the devs forgot about these plot points.

    Yes and no.. Balthazar is more the reason although we had a hand in it.

    Jormag's state however is interesting, It say's it's slumbering beneath the ice yet it's in part active as well.. communicating and commanding it's minions so it's not fully asleep/dorment but it's also not awake/active either.
    It's possible what Konig said is true and that Jormag is in a cocoon state after the events of season 3 which could imply that Both Primordus and Jormag suffered pretty significant injury beacuse of Balthazar and Taimi's machine.. which would make sense since he was trying to kill them.

    That may also hint that this threat on the horizon Jormag speaks of could be Primordus and not the Sea Dragon as some have speculated.. It would make sense in Jormag's case to make nice with those known for killing Dragons in order to eliminate another Dragon who's existence alone has proven dangerous to it.
    Jormag and Primordus have had no interaction during the events of Gw2 yet a Fallen God and Asuran technology was able to put their magic against one another and almost kill them both as a result.
    If that isn't incentive for Primordus and Jormag to now see each other as enemy or at the very least a major threat then I don't know what is.

    Personally I'd very much like to deal with both these dragons at the same time.. us knowing that we can let neither of them fall without replacement or see catastrophe strike Tyria as a result.
    I also very much like the idea of Jormag and Primordus seeking to manipulate mortals into joining against the other..
    Flame Legion at one point worshipped Destroyers.. Primordus could find some lingering allies there, not to mention the Dredge who could easily be swayed.
    Dredge hate Dwarves who remain Primordus main enemies in the depths and the Inquest could be swayed by the promise of power having a Elder Dragon on their side.
    Jormag has already recruited among the Charr and Vigil and has attempted to find common ground with Dragons Watch and Aurine too.

    The only thing we don't know about Primordus though is it's state.. It's probably in a similar state to Jormag but we've heard nothing about it since the events of season 3.

  • The forum looks awful, I hope the format bug gets fixed soon.

    "Do the norn know that killing another Elder Dragon would end the world? As far as we've seen, only Dragon's Watch and maybe the Pact knows this. Given how the charr react to Aurene, it's likely that it isn't common knowledge how important Elder Dragons are to the world's existence, so it makes sense that the norn are seeing "Braham gave up on killing Jormag" and not "Braham gave up on killing Jormag and the world".

    Right now, you're assuming that what the players know = what everyone knows. This is never shown to be the case." Konig Des Todes.2086

    I hope the studio doesn't use this logic. Tyrian cities are better connected than real world cities. The role of Elder Dragons is one of the most important discoveries in the history of magi-physics and possibly the most important factor influencing the struggle against them. How does it stay a secret? Why would it stay a secret? Why wouldn't there be weekly or even daily updates on Elder dragons that spread through Tyria? An obvious answer would be that the studio said so, but I hate that type of impossibly 'just so' scenario. It makes me feel as though I'm viewing Tyria through a tube and nothing happens outside of the tube. Obiously the player will know things that not every Tyrian knows, but the role of Elder dragons would not be one of them.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jormag's state however is interesting, It say's it's slumbering beneath the ice yet it's in part active as well.

    This reminds me of sharks.
    Sharks can "turn off" half their brain during their deep sleep periods.

  • Gryphon.2875Gryphon.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    Taimi is writing her book on it...

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The forum looks awful, I hope the format bug gets fixed soon.

    "Do the norn know that killing another Elder Dragon would end the world? As far as we've seen, only Dragon's Watch and maybe the Pact knows this. Given how the charr react to Aurene, it's likely that it isn't common knowledge how important Elder Dragons are to the world's existence, so it makes sense that the norn are seeing "Braham gave up on killing Jormag" and not "Braham gave up on killing Jormag and the world".

    Right now, you're assuming that what the players know = what everyone knows. This is never shown to be the case." Konig Des Todes.2086

    I hope the studio doesn't use this logic. Tyrian cities are better connected than real world cities. The role of Elder Dragons is one of the most important discoveries in the history of magi-physics and possibly the most important factor influencing the struggle against them. How does it stay a secret? Why would it stay a secret? Why wouldn't there be weekly or even daily updates on Elder dragons that spread through Tyria? An obvious answer would be that the studio said so, but I hate that type of impossibly 'just so' scenario. It makes me feel as though I'm viewing Tyria through a tube and nothing happens outside of the tube. Obiously the player will know things that not every Tyrian knows, but the role of Elder dragons would not be one of them.

    I wouldn't say Tyrian cities are better connected. I'd say the exact opposite. First off, asura gates are expensive and uncommon - only seven cities have them. Waypoints exist, but require people to have been somewhere else first. Secondly, there's no instant - and widespread - communication means. No internet, not even telephones. Dragon's Watch and highly important military individuals that are allied with Dragon's Watch (such as Pact/Orders leadership) have communicators, but even Bangar, an imperator, and Jennah do not. So your rank and file, let alone civilians, won't.

    Transportation is fast... but expensive. And long-range communication is still pre-telephone era. I mean, Bangar Ruinbringer uses carrier pigeon (or equivalent of) to invite the Commander to the All-Legion Rally. That's how Queen Jennah contacted the Commander in Season 3. And Kito in Season 4.

    This means that the only way for news to travel, is through slow newspapers and heralds - or the "holo-news", which seems mostly interested in races and surveys, not politics or even world states.

    If you go through Divinity's Reach, there are NPCs who outright deny the existence of Elder Dragons - granted, this is meant to be 1325 AE dialogue, ergo before Zhaitan's defeat, but this is also proof that people are not really all that interested in spreading knowledge about the Elder Dragons. We have zero indication that "killing Elder Dragons is bad for the world" has been spread outside of the people on the front lines and higher ups of the Orders and Pact. And the notion of such is very far away from an "impossibly just so scenario".

    If we take a step back and look at dialogue from the recent Dragon Bash, there is a lot of talk about killing the Elder Dragons. And it seems nothing to mention that the Elder Dragons' existence is vital to the world. Which just goes to suggest that your common Tyrian doesn't know that "kill one more dragon and the world dies" is the situation at hand.

    i wonder if "the All" is some sort of "common knowledge" or still just stuff the researchers/scholars know

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To me the situation with the Elder Dragons seems a lot like the situation with climate change in real life. The experts, the ones on the front lines, know all the ins and outs of the current situation but the majority of people either don't want to hear it because they're so fixated on the older perspective (kill all the dragons) which the experts now know is incorrect, or they don't want to think about it at all and just want to get on with their own lives and more immediate problems closer to home and pretend the world isn't in danger of total collapse.

    The rate events are going in Tyria it's entirely possible we could do something to replace or pacify all the remaining dragons before the majority of people in the world even get around to thinking about the fact that there are dragons.

    Danielle Aurorel - Desolation EU. Mini Collector.

    "Not dead which eternal lie, stranger eons death may die. Drain you of your sanity, face the thing that should not be"

  • IMHO the problem is less that he failed to kill Jormag, the problems are

    a) he survived
    and
    b) ran away
    and
    c) left his comrades behind to fight and die alone.

    I think even we can understand why b and c are a problem for every norn. Because they would be a problem for humans as well.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    Personally I'd very much like to deal with both these dragons at the same time.. us knowing that we can let neither of them fall without replacement or see catastrophe strike Tyria as a result.

    My own tinfoil hat theory is that there is currently no such thing as the Deep Sea Dragon, and that it's a creature Tyrians actually create by pitting the fire dragon against the ice dragon. In the clash, the fire gets extinguished, but not before melting the ice into water. What remains of each dragon's consciousness could rush into the created water to preserve itself from oblivion.

    As for the undersea horrors displacing the krait, who's to say that fire and ice are not already having this sort of interaction on the fringes of each dragon's maximum reach of influence? The reason why there's so little material about it in the old tomes and writings is perhaps that whatever deity or seer that has this information about Bubbles decided it was both inevitable and better for us all not to know. This theory is really not consistent with a lot of what we've seen, I know, but it's a fun thought for me nonetheless.

    As for the whole Vowbreaker thing, I speculate (as have others in this thread already) that it comes from the fact that he rallied the Norn as their chosen champion, then backed off at the last minute and subsequently went off to do other things - leaving a lot of disappointed Norn in his wake. I'd still like to know precisely what the "vow" was that they consider him to have broken.