[Speculation] Spirits of the Wild and Jormag — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Speculation] Spirits of the Wild and Jormag

NorthernRedStar.3054NorthernRedStar.3054 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 28, 2019 in Lore

Spirits of the Wild are manifestations of Jormag's psyche and/or the magic they've consumed over the cycles of awakening they've lived through.

Off-note: it's been recounted that Owl was 'consumed' by Jormag. What if this process was just them recollecting all the haywire aspects of their lost magical energies.

Comments

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited November 28, 2019

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    Spirits of the Wild are manifestations of Jormag's psyche and/or the magic they've consumed over the cycles of awakening they've lived through.

    Off-note: it's been recounted that Owl was 'consumed' by Jormag. What if this process was just them recollecting all the haywire aspects of their lost magical energies.

    That's a great idea! You may be right.

    Such a conclusion would rewrite everything, including the human gods, who the norn consider spirits too.

    I think the lore community really needs to hash out the difference between Spirits of the Wild and the human gods. (This isn't the wiki - speculation is permissible.) The reason I say this is that the norn don't have "gods" that look like them. Why? Come to think of it, aside from humankind the only other race that acknowledges a higher being that resembles themselves are the dwarves, with their "Great Dwarf".

    Surely someone has creative insights into this.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2019

    Was gonna comment but Konig said everything I was going to in far more detail xD

    One thing of note i'd like to reference though.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What's interesting is that by this theory, there actually should be / have been a "Spirit of Dragon" out in the world that existed before the Elder Dragons (if such is possible).

    I wonder if this Spirit of the Dragon you mention is potentially this "Mother" that Kralkatorrik spoke of..

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    I wonder if this Spirit of the Dragon you mention is potentially this "Mother" that Kralkatorrik spoke of..

    Dude yes! That’d be so cool! I am 100% on board with this idea

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scraggy.3814 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I wonder if this Spirit of the Dragon you mention is potentially this "Mother" that Kralkatorrik spoke of..

    Dude yes! That’d be so cool! I am 100% on board with this idea

    Why?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Scraggy.3814 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I wonder if this Spirit of the Dragon you mention is potentially this "Mother" that Kralkatorrik spoke of..

    Dude yes! That’d be so cool! I am 100% on board with this idea

    Why?

    Cause I think it’d be an interesting plot point that Tyria itself is a living being or has a personified version of itself, sort of like Gaia in Greek mythos, she’s goddess of the earth, but she had a physical body, plus, it’d stray from the EDs and give us a very interesting enemy

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scraggy.3814 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Scraggy.3814 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I wonder if this Spirit of the Dragon you mention is potentially this "Mother" that Kralkatorrik spoke of..

    Dude yes! That’d be so cool! I am 100% on board with this idea

    Why?

    Cause I think it’d be an interesting plot point that Tyria itself is a living being or has a personified version of itself, sort of like Gaia in Greek mythos, she’s goddess of the earth, but she had a physical body, plus, it’d stray from the EDs and give us a very interesting enemy

    That is fine, but wouldn't that imply this “Mother” is Tyria then rather than the Spirit of Dragon?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Scraggy.3814 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Scraggy.3814 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I wonder if this Spirit of the Dragon you mention is potentially this "Mother" that Kralkatorrik spoke of..

    Dude yes! That’d be so cool! I am 100% on board with this idea

    Why?

    Cause I think it’d be an interesting plot point that Tyria itself is a living being or has a personified version of itself, sort of like Gaia in Greek mythos, she’s goddess of the earth, but she had a physical body, plus, it’d stray from the EDs and give us a very interesting enemy

    That's already been implied since the PS, and would have nothing to do with a "Spirit of Dragon".

    Avatar of the Tree: The soul of Tyria mourned as her children were cut down by the beast. The land wept, and the world shuddered.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness#In_the_Omphalos_Chamber

    My theory regarding that is that the Dream of Dreams is basically "Thyria's subconscious". Since S2 and HoT showed that the Dream helps prevent dragon corruption, and that Mordremoth had access to it but could not control it (and the only mordrem/sylvari shown to be linked to the Dream were the Pale Tree's sylvari and the Shadow of the Dragon - all other mordrem, as well as Malyck and sylvari from Malyck's tree - were not connected to the Dream of Dreams), but it is a mindscape and has an eerily resemblance to the Mists but isn't Melandru's realm, this makes the most sense to me. Would also explain why sylvari saw The All with the Pale Tree in the center - the Pale Tree is connected to Thyria itself by taking upon the role of "caretaker of the Dream". If this is correct, it would also mean that Thyria is rejecting the Elder Dragons, as the PC's Wyld Hunt was to kill Zhaitan and then Mordremoth - whichever Elder Dragon became the active threat. Sadly, ArenaNet didn't keep up that trend, curiously enough. And even the Nightmare is rejecting the Elder Dragons, as the Nightmare Court still fights the Elder Dragons, and even fought Mordremoth.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just started playing through the story again on a male norn and during the first mission a NPC refers to a Spirit of the wild (Minotaur) as the grandfather of all minotaur..

    I don't recall that line before but made me think back to this thread and my speculation that a Spirit of the Dragon could be the Mother/progenitor of all Dragons..
    Kralkatorrik and the other Elder Dragons being so ancient could potentially be the first Dragons born from this Spirit hence they may refer to it as Mother..

    Then again the NPC could just be exaggerating.. as far as I know there isn't any confirmed lore stating that the Spirits created the species they represent.. though as Konig said with the Death of Owl their species did weaken, so it's also quite possible that they did create them.

    What's also interesting in recent patch is that for the first time in the game we heard a Elder dragon reference another by name.
    We still don't understand Jormag's abilities.. but it does appear to have some telepathic capability.
    Despite what some may think though this is not something Jormag picked up from Mordremoth.. it has always had this ability and we know of it's use as far back as Gw1 when Jormag used it to seduce and eventually corrupt Svanir.
    How advanced this ability is though is unknown, we know Jormag can speak to you in your mind.. and we know that it has the ability to prey on weakness suggesting it can read minds or at the very least it can read fears and desires.
    Whether Jormag obtained Kralkatorriks name this way or has always known it is unclear atm, if it always knew then it raises questions as to what kind of relationship these dragons have or had with one another in the long distant past.. and also begs the related question of whether or not they are all indeed siblings born from the same mother.. the Spirit of the Dragon.

    Suffice to say with the Norn lore finally getting some attention in the Icebrood Saga I am very interested to find out more about both the Spirits of the Wild and the Elder Dragons.. and whether or not they share any connection through a Spirit of the Dragon.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Just started playing through the story again on a male norn and during the first mission a NPC refers to a Spirit of the wild (Minotaur) as the grandfather of all minotaur..

    For reference the line is:
    Ferghen the Tracker: It's not some mere minotaur! It's a Spirit of the Wild! The granddaddy of all minotaurs. Hush now, I heard something!

    This could be taken as being the progenitor of minotaurs, or it could be a way of saying "the greatest minotaur there ever can be". Depending on context, which isn't very clear, imo. Could easily be both, even.

    and also begs the related question of whether or not they are all indeed siblings born from the same mother.. the Spirit of the Dragon.

    They look too different from each other to be of the same species. However, they could be of different "dragonkin" species or related to.

    • Zhaitan and Mordremoth's bodies don't appear to be "original" - Mordremoth is next to confirmed to have bodyswapped in the distant past, though his original appearance is unhinted at; while Zhaitan's body looks like he was injured and "repaired himself" over time with smaller dragon corpses, resulting in his current "dragon made of dragons" design. So it'd be hard to impossible to relate them to any of the "lesser dragons".
      ** Mordremoth's body does seem to be the same as this guy
    • Kralkatorrik, however, matches what the Bone Dragons were in life, more or less, as we know they lost their bottom half when pulling themselves out of the grave.
    • Depending on where they go with Jormag, his original GW2 design appeared to be wyvern/saltspray dragon influenced (from the intro: he had feet, but also wings; from the Sons of Svanir emblem, wings again, but from the totem and tooth name, very serpentine, making him like a serpentine wyvern - or a saltspray dragon).
    • Since Primordus' GW2 model just shows his head, if we take his GW1 model, this is the most unique of them all beyond Zhaitan - instead of forelimbs (legs or wings) he has four tendrils. Hard to say what he may look like...
    • The DSD is hinted at being Hydra-like.

    Which would mean we have an Elder Dragon for hydras, wyverns, "European dragons", and "eastern dragons", with two unclears. No drakes though... Unless Jormag's model goes from the suggested wyvern to mirroring Drakkar in GW1, which indeed would be drake-like.

    If this does hold true, then it's possible the (original) Elder Dragons are the progenitors of these lesser dragon species. Or the first of those kinds under the Spirit of Dragon's influence, or along those lines.

    Though how that ties them into the All becomes a bigger question, since currently the concept is that The All always existed as part of Thyria and thus the (original) Elder Dragons always existed alongside Thryia...

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Just started playing through the story again on a male norn and during the first mission a NPC refers to a Spirit of the wild (Minotaur) as the grandfather of all minotaur..

    For reference the line is:
    Ferghen the Tracker: It's not some mere minotaur! It's a Spirit of the Wild! The granddaddy of all minotaurs. Hush now, I heard something!

    This could be taken as being the progenitor of minotaurs, or it could be a way of saying "the greatest minotaur there ever can be". Depending on context, which isn't very clear, imo. Could easily be both, even.

    and also begs the related question of whether or not they are all indeed siblings born from the same mother.. the Spirit of the Dragon.

    They look too different from each other to be of the same species. However, they could be of different "dragonkin" species or related to.

    • Zhaitan and Mordremoth's bodies don't appear to be "original" - Mordremoth is next to confirmed to have bodyswapped in the distant past, though his original appearance is unhinted at; while Zhaitan's body looks like he was injured and "repaired himself" over time with smaller dragon corpses, resulting in his current "dragon made of dragons" design. So it'd be hard to impossible to relate them to any of the "lesser dragons".
      ** Mordremoth's body does seem to be the same as this guy
    • Kralkatorrik, however, matches what the Bone Dragons were in life, more or less, as we know they lost their bottom half when pulling themselves out of the grave.
    • Depending on where they go with Jormag, his original GW2 design appeared to be wyvern/saltspray dragon influenced (from the intro: he had feet, but also wings; from the Sons of Svanir emblem, wings again, but from the totem and tooth name, very serpentine, making him like a serpentine wyvern - or a saltspray dragon).
    • Since Primordus' GW2 model just shows his head, if we take his GW1 model, this is the most unique of them all beyond Zhaitan - instead of forelimbs (legs or wings) he has four tendrils. Hard to say what he may look like...
    • The DSD is hinted at being Hydra-like.

    I'd say Zhaitans form is more of decay than injury.. much like a Lich who while immortal continues to physically decay slowely over time to achive these more undead/corpse looking appearances.
    I've always thought of Zhaitan modifying it's body with parts of dead dragons as a means of protecting itself or adding to it's power.. such as retaining the ability to fly depsite it's wings being so worn from time.

    I am curious to Jormags design too though, I'm hoping it's a legged serpent more than snake like Mordremoth was and I hope it's covered in many ice spines.. a big old spikey snake lizard looking thing with a vicious looking face and a mouth full of sharp icy teeth.

    Primordus is the one I most want to resemble it's Gw1 appearance.. a giant winged fire drake/wyvern.

    I'm fine with DSD looking like a Hydra too, that would be a good fit for it specially if it's body is more like an armoured crab or turtle or something.
    Creature I have in mind for reference is Trinexx from the Legend of Zelda series.

    Though how that ties them into the All becomes a bigger question, since currently the concept is that The All always existed as part of Thyria and thus the (original) Elder Dragons always existed alongside Thryia...

    Considering Elder Dragons can be replaced by an equally powerful force as we saw with Aurine then perhaps it's possible that something once existed before Elder Dragons that originally held that role in the All.
    Something which the Elder Dragons originally usurped and stole their power and position in the All.
    Recorded history simply doesn't exist that far back though so it's impossible to know anything about their origins at this point until that information is found or given freely by a being like Jormag who is the only being we're on speaking terms with who would have known that world and it's events first hand.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'd say Zhaitans form is more of decay than injury.. much like a Lich who while immortal continues to physically decay slowely over time to achive these more undead/corpse looking appearances.
    I've always thought of Zhaitan modifying it's body with parts of dead dragons as a means of protecting itself or adding to it's power.. such as retaining the ability to fly depsite it's wings being so worn from time.

    The reason I say injury is threefold:

    1. It seems weird to me that the ultimate master of death magic would be suffering from decay. While it spreads decay in its corruption, I feel like it would become capable of ceasing decay on itself.
    2. According to Season 3 Episode 2 lore, the mursaat and Forgotten launched a joint attack on Zhaitan in the previous dragonrise. This assault failed, but it wouldn't be surprising, given how effective Spectral Agony and Forgotten magic are (the latter particularly against dragon corruption/magic), that they managed to reach Zhaitan but they couldn't kill it (perhaps they were unaware of its weakness and didn't systematically weaken it before conflict like the Pact did by pure chance).
    3. The design of Zhaitan itself, while it was using the concept of "dragon made out of dragons", Zhaitan doesn't really hold to that with his design. There's a notable lack of lower body, yet exposed innards to suggest he lost his hind legs; he has multiple tails and wings, but the secondary set are of a different design; his skin does hold the motifs of dragons, but they're all very flat, as if the dragons were skinned and placed over his body instead of being part of it; and his main arms are definitely of his own main body.

    2 is the big one, but all this makes me think that Zhaitan's original body may have been more like the crystal dragon families' shape - as a more traditional European dragon - but through injury or other means, he "improved" or "fixed" himself with corpses, thus creating the monstrosity we see.

    Though this may not have been the original intent. If we go through the concept art and other stuff, Zhaitan's design had four primary stages of appearance.

    The first stage was where all Elder Dragons looked the same, more or less, and were these serpentine creatures that are reminescent to Slivers in Magic the Gathering; where they had triangular heads, a set of wings, two primary arms and two secondary arms, and moved around on a tail (like snakepeople). Related concept art This was a 2006 design.

    His second design was much more solid, singular piece, with an armored plating. This lasted the longest, and was even featured in the 2009 Guild Wars 2 teaser trailers. Concept art 1, Concept art 2, his corpse in this form.

    The third design - which might have been second - was the first iteration of "a dragon made out of dragons", and Zhaitan didn't have a solidified appearance. But we do have concept art titled "The Dragon's Head" and "The Left Hand of the Dragon", as well as a similar unnamed but confirmed to be Zhaitan concept art - all three depicted Zhaitan's arms and "head" (where the jaw seems to split off into arms) as individual dragons. The hands were more "hydra-like" where each figure was a head/neck.

    And then we have the fourth and finalized design, which meshes the second and third designs together.

    Now, what's interesting about the second "singular dragon" design that they went with for the longest of times, is the apparent shape. It's hard to tell with those shots, but when you look at the map of Arah when Zhaitan's corpse was included, you can see that... the body has no hind legs. This remained in the current version, but without the "falling apart and replaced with smaller dragons" look, it seems more like Zhaitan's design there was mirroring these guys (not the best image, but it's what wiki has) that were Bone Dragon rigging with flesh.

    What does the would-be designs of Zhaitan have to do with this? Dunno. Just thought it's fun to share my thoughts on it. I do wish the full corpse was still in the gw.dat file, and not just the head/wing/forearm.

    I am curious to Jormags design too though, I'm hoping it's a legged serpent more than snake like Mordremoth was and I hope it's covered in many ice spines.. a big old spikey snake lizard looking thing with a vicious looking face and a mouth full of sharp icy teeth.

    Based off of the event icons, Mordremoth was meant to be a legged serpent. Which is why I related him to the Mystical Dragon-model-using NPC.
    Event_mordremoth_%28map_icon%29.png

    Primordus is the one I most want to resemble it's Gw1 appearance.. a giant winged fire drake/wyvern.

    Primordus didn't have wings in GW1. Didn't even have forearms. I actually pulled out the model and got a good look. A lot more than thought was revealed, though still only up to the chest. But instead of wings/arms, he has four tendrils. Curious design.

    Considering Elder Dragons can be replaced by an equally powerful force as we saw with Aurine then perhaps it's possible that something once existed before Elder Dragons that originally held that role in the All.
    Something which the Elder Dragons originally usurped and stole their power and position in the All.
    Recorded history simply doesn't exist that far back though so it's impossible to know anything about their origins at this point until that information is found or given freely by a being like Jormag who is the only being we're on speaking terms with who would have known that world and it's events first hand.

    That's certainly possible. But what could they have taken the power from? Especially if all that existed before them were nature spirits and the first generations of fleshy creatures?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'd say Zhaitans form is more of decay than injury.. much like a Lich who while immortal continues to physically decay slowely over time to achive these more undead/corpse looking appearances.
    I've always thought of Zhaitan modifying it's body with parts of dead dragons as a means of protecting itself or adding to it's power.. such as retaining the ability to fly depsite it's wings being so worn from time.

    The reason I say injury is threefold:

    1. It seems weird to me that the ultimate master of death magic would be suffering from decay. While it spreads decay in its corruption, I feel like it would become capable of ceasing decay on itself.
    2. According to Season 3 Episode 2 lore, the mursaat and Forgotten launched a joint attack on Zhaitan in the previous dragonrise. This assault failed, but it wouldn't be surprising, given how effective Spectral Agony and Forgotten magic are (the latter particularly against dragon corruption/magic), that they managed to reach Zhaitan but they couldn't kill it (perhaps they were unaware of its weakness and didn't systematically weaken it before conflict like the Pact did by pure chance).
    3. The design of Zhaitan itself, while it was using the concept of "dragon made out of dragons", Zhaitan doesn't really hold to that with his design. There's a notable lack of lower body, yet exposed innards to suggest he lost his hind legs; he has multiple tails and wings, but the secondary set are of a different design; his skin does hold the motifs of dragons, but they're all very flat, as if the dragons were skinned and placed over his body instead of being part of it; and his main arms are definitely of his own main body.

    2 is the big one, but all this makes me think that Zhaitan's original body may have been more like the crystal dragon families' shape - as a more traditional European dragon - but through injury or other means, he "improved" or "fixed" himself with corpses, thus creating the monstrosity we see.

    Though this may not have been the original intent. If we go through the concept art and other stuff, Zhaitan's design had four primary stages of appearance.

    The first stage was where all Elder Dragons looked the same, more or less, and were these serpentine creatures that are reminescent to Slivers in Magic the Gathering; where they had triangular heads, a set of wings, two primary arms and two secondary arms, and moved around on a tail (like snakepeople). Related concept art This was a 2006 design.

    His second design was much more solid, singular piece, with an armored plating. This lasted the longest, and was even featured in the 2009 Guild Wars 2 teaser trailers. Concept art 1, Concept art 2, his corpse in this form.

    The third design - which might have been second - was the first iteration of "a dragon made out of dragons", and Zhaitan didn't have a solidified appearance. But we do have concept art titled "The Dragon's Head" and "The Left Hand of the Dragon", as well as a similar unnamed but confirmed to be Zhaitan concept art - all three depicted Zhaitan's arms and "head" (where the jaw seems to split off into arms) as individual dragons. The hands were more "hydra-like" where each figure was a head/neck.

    And then we have the fourth and finalized design, which meshes the second and third designs together.

    Now, what's interesting about the second "singular dragon" design that they went with for the longest of times, is the apparent shape. It's hard to tell with those shots, but when you look at the map of Arah when Zhaitan's corpse was included, you can see that... the body has no hind legs. This remained in the current version, but without the "falling apart and replaced with smaller dragons" look, it seems more like Zhaitan's design there was mirroring these guys (not the best image, but it's what wiki has) that were Bone Dragon rigging with flesh.

    What does the would-be designs of Zhaitan have to do with this? Dunno. Just thought it's fun to share my thoughts on it. I do wish the full corpse was still in the gw.dat file, and not just the head/wing/forearm.

    It's certainly interesting but also kinda reinforces speculation that the devs really didn't know what to do with Zhaitan for a long time during the games development.. more so since Zhaitan is even depicted in ingame cutscenes looking vastly different from his final model lol.
    It would certainly explain the rushed state that his fight was in when the game first launched.
    It's a shame really because in concept Zhaitan is a really, really cool dragon and many of those concept designs are so much better and more interesting than the actual dragon we got in the end, makes me wonder how many (if any at all) different versions of Zhaitan were created and tried before being scrapped due to time constraints or older technical limitations etc..

    Primordus is the one I most want to resemble it's Gw1 appearance.. a giant winged fire drake/wyvern.

    Primordus didn't have wings in GW1. Didn't even have forearms. I actually pulled out the model and got a good look. A lot more than thought was revealed, though still only up to the chest. But instead of wings/arms, he has four tendrils. Curious design.

    The Great destroyer had wings similar to that.. not bound by any webbing type material but rather spiked spire like wings.
    I don't recall whether it could fly though.. don't think it could.
    In Gw2 Destroyer harpies have a similar spiked/tendril like wing design and they can fly so I would still think that Primordus tendrils do have a similar kind of wing function..
    It always looked to me like he was bowing with his wings laid our around the Great Destoryers area.. but until we get an actual full body model of Primordus in GW2 we can't know for sure what he really looks like.
    I'm hoping he has not been redesigned into essentially a giant wurm.
    I still remain fond of my idea that what we saw in Season 3 wasn't directly Primordus but rather a massive living destroyer construct he had created around his real body to protect himself and traverse the depths more easily by burrowing through it.
    It would certainly be a surprise to fight and defeat this champion like creature only to have the real dragon reveal itself completely unscathed afterwards.

    Considering Elder Dragons can be replaced by an equally powerful force as we saw with Aurine then perhaps it's possible that something once existed before Elder Dragons that originally held that role in the All.
    Something which the Elder Dragons originally usurped and stole their power and position in the All.
    Recorded history simply doesn't exist that far back though so it's impossible to know anything about their origins at this point until that information is found or given freely by a being like Jormag who is the only being we're on speaking terms with who would have known that world and it's events first hand.

    That's certainly possible. But what could they have taken the power from? Especially if all that existed before them were nature spirits and the first generations of fleshy creatures?

    Totally unknown there but considering real human history and the rise and fall of cultures and religions I guess my first thought would be to some kind of ancient divine creatures.. Maybe the Spirits of the Wild once had their own Gods or there were older races who did..
    After all, the Dragons have risen and and fallen back into sleep many, many times.. each time purging the world of almost all life, we have no idea how many species may have been wiped from Tyria's history nor how many may have existed before even dragons and the Spirits of the wild.
    It's a clean slate more or less every time the Dragons rise and we know that new races appear after each cycle.. and few races usually survive their first encounter with Elder Dragons.

    If there's one thing we can say for sure though it's that many religions in Tyria are from our experiences often based on something very real.
    The Human Gods, exist..
    The Spirits of the Wild, exist..
    The Eternal Alchemy, exists..

    What older now extinct races worshipped is anyone's guess but it's quite possible they worshipped very real beings as well, many of which may have fallen to the Dragons as Owl and in part Balthazar did.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It's certainly interesting but also kinda reinforces speculation that the devs really didn't know what to do with Zhaitan for a long time during the games development.. more so since Zhaitan is even depicted in ingame cutscenes looking vastly different from his final model lol.

    Most cutscenes use the same concept art from the trailers, and isn't that different. It's meant to portray Zhaitan before being weakened by the Pact's diverting magic, as well as how Tyrians who never saw Zhaitan believed he would look.

    The Great destroyer had wings similar to that.. not bound by any webbing type material but rather spiked spire like wings.
    I don't recall whether it could fly though.. don't think it could.
    In Gw2 Destroyer harpies have a similar spiked/tendril like wing design and they can fly so I would still think that Primordus tendrils do have a similar kind of wing function..
    It always looked to me like he was bowing with his wings laid our around the Great Destoryers area.. but until we get an actual full body model of Primordus in GW2 we can't know for sure what he really looks like.

    Those aren't wings. They 100% are not wings on Primordus. Not only are they in the wrong position to be wings, they also look nothing like the Great Destroyer's wings or Destroyer Harpies' wings. Destroyer wings have notably visible joints, and mimics the form of bones. Primordus' tendrils appear to be jointless except at the "shoulder joint" equivalent, just one singular curved outreach each, thus more resemble, well, tendrils - tentacles if you will.

    Pulled up the extracted model and took some screenshots to help illustrate, with and without the rock he's embedded in:
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sB4eMInILyH763YPOpguj_I0GQHXw2ep
    (Note that textures aren't applied completely properly, still new to 3ds max which is required for ninjaripper that I used to get the model.)

    Those are either some very awkward scythe feet, or they're tendrils/tentacles. I imagine the latter, given there's four of them in front of him, which makes me think the concept that made it into EotN was of some sort of eldritch swimming dragon.

    Totally unknown there but considering real human history and the rise and fall of cultures and religions I guess my first thought would be to some kind of ancient divine creatures.. Maybe the Spirits of the Wild once had their own Gods or there were older races who did..
    After all, the Dragons have risen and and fallen back into sleep many, many times.. each time purging the world of almost all life, we have no idea how many species may have been wiped from Tyria's history nor how many may have existed before even dragons and the Spirits of the wild.
    It's a clean slate more or less every time the Dragons rise and we know that new races appear after each cycle.. and few races usually survive their first encounter with Elder Dragons.

    Taking Kodan lore as I had above, any "deity of the spirits" would be Koda. No hint that Koda's dead, since the Voices' job is to, well, hear and interpret Koda.

    Furthermore, assuming that the kodan and norn lore is (still) accurate, that would mean that there wasn't anything before the nature spirits - that they were THE first "living" things on Thyria.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.