Downstate is why this game was never/never will be Esports — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Downstate is why this game was never/never will be Esports

The downstate mechanic is too casual friendly and completely kills any type of competitive aspect this game could have. Now its even more problematic with power creeped builds from elite specs than before because theres alot more defensive abilities and after downing a player and they get ressed, they get all their cooldowns back and you have to do the same thing all over again. it just promotes careless and unskillful game play when you know you have that second chance.

Speaking of second chance theres no punishment for going in the downstate you can get downed and get ressed again, technically having an infinite amount of chances. Theres also the fact that the downstate has too much health and has interupt abilities making it way too diffuclt to succefully 1vX which makes this game cater to casuals because numbers win over skill. Not to mention some classes are harder to kill in the downstate than when they are alive which is really dumb. A necro for example, has very high health and regen in the downstate and is almost a free kill when not in the downstate. Same with rangers aswell that can interupt you 3 times + have a self heal in the downstate.

Why do you think people go afk so much in games when they are getting dominated? The downstate mechanic is so one sided and so anti carry, once your team loses one fight theres no chance of coming back, even if you as a player that can down 2 people it dosent matter they will just get ressed by the rest of the team. Basically turning the game in a 1v5 if your team is weaker than enemy team theres no hope.

However if downstate didint exist you could literally rush 3 players by yourself and pick 1-2 kills then disengage and make a difference for the team. For those saying the downstate increases build diversity because otherwise everyone would be one shot, you are wrong. Downstate actually limits build diversity, you are forced to play a high dmg AoE cleaver or else you are totally useless , even more so in solo Q. It also forces people to run at least 1 support that can res people if they go down.

Why do you think double herald is a thing? Sure rev is " OP" but honestly if there was no downstate you wouldnt need to run 2 revs anymore, just run anything that can kill people, but instead we need high dmg AoE cleave to be able to finish the downs otherwise theres not enough dmg. So yes that just proves how limiting and casual friendly the downstate mechanic is and its totally killing solo Q and the competitve aspect of the game or anything thats left of it rather since the majority of players quit long time ago.

They should really make a no downstate event in PvP like the did in wvw for 1-3 months and gather information from the playerbase and the top tier players and decide if they want to keep it or not because no other competitive game has this poor mechanic. Team BRs do have a downstate but its so weak compared to gw2, you just need 1 bullet to finsih the downed player and it usually takes a very long time to res someone, almost 10 secs unlike 2-3 secs in gw2, and downed players cannot attack you back but in gw2 they can obvsiously. I understand this game is a casual game but pvp isint supposed to be casual and is already dead anyways, they would not lose anything from removing the downstate now, we cant go lower than what we have now in terms of playerbase so might aswell try no downstate because you have nothing to lose anet.

Comments

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should make an event yes but they can't actually get completely rid of it EVER. It's one of the things that makes this game stand out from competition, and makes GW2 Guild Wars 2. Obviously it's just one thing but once you open Pandora's box, you can't close it. Next we have people demanding that weapon skills get untied from their corresponding weapons. At that point it's just anarchy, and a good example of why devs shouldn't listen to all player feedback. Players have a habit of criticizing everything and if the devs don't have a mind and direction of their own their game quickly loses identity, and eventually its players.

    You say it makes the game less skillful but that's just your opinion. Which I, for example, happen to disagree with. Pretty sure a lot of people share my opinion, and yours too. That doesn't make either side correct, it's just a thing that IS and you need to learn to live with it.

    Never going to be a competitive ESport because of it? Too bad. The game doesn't need to be, and it's not trying to. This recent re-focus on PvP/WvW doesn't aim to make the game more competitive, it's to reduce powercreep and bloat in order to make the game mode fun again. The lack of people isn't caused by lack of competitiveness, it's caused by lack of fun on the long term. These 2 things do align because balance, more tactical playmaking decisions and slower paced matches are FUN. That's ultimately the driving force at play here.

    Esports are not coming back to this game. I give you permission to bury that horse.

  • I'd argue that downstate introduces a different level of skill and consideration to a variety of situations. Depending on what class I'm playing, what my cooldowns are at, and who else is down in the vicinity, I can make a wide range of choices. I'm not going to get into the specific situations, but if you do anything other than blindly run into stomp or rez, you'll know what I'm talking about. There's a lot of considerations that can change what you should do in a rez/stomp situation, and I for one appreciate that extra wrinkle to the combat.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is definitely a snappiness to GW2's combat without downstate that you can see and feel when you get the opportunity to play WvW on a No Downstate Weekend.

    Removing downstate, having players fully die once they reach 0 hit points and changing kills like Signet of Mercy to revive fully dead allies after a limited window (Like you get a 5 second window after an ally dies before they go from a body into a skeleton where it can't be rezed anymore) is definitely one of GW2's big "What ifs" in terms of shaping the long term health, popularity and design of the game.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have a feeling that we will see more of those threads after the next patch hit.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Except for the fact that every other game has real resurrection skills (some even have mass rezz) that can bring people back from fully dead and that its common to fight players multiple times in a fight even when a downstate mechanic is not present.

    Some games even hinge their entire popularity on "infinite combat" , where fights basically never end.

    People need to stop wearing those vintage rose-tinted glasses.

    You're forgetting a key component to those skills you mention, though. They have cooldowns. Several minute long cooldowns. Any res ability has a comparatively short cooldown, and rub-a-dub-dub reviving has no cooldown and benefits greatly by having multiple people do it.

    Also what games are you talking about that hinge their entire popularity on "infinite combat"? I'm honestly trying to think of one but...I legitimately cannot. Are you referencing respawning or something?

  • TBH "Lesh" was the reason this game was never Esports XD

  • But give evey class the same downed skill and it will be fair. (cos that warrior downed skill when is 1v1 is a joke)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Except for the fact that every other game has real resurrection skills (some even have mass rezz) that can bring people back from fully dead and that its common to fight players multiple times in a fight even when a downstate mechanic is not present.

    Some games even hinge their entire popularity on "infinite combat" , where fights basically never end.

    People need to stop wearing those vintage rose-tinted glasses.

    You're forgetting a key component to those skills you mention, though. They have cooldowns. Several minute long cooldowns. Any res ability has a comparatively short cooldown, and rub-a-dub-dub reviving has no cooldown and benefits greatly by having multiple people do it.

    Also what games are you talking about that hinge their entire popularity on "infinite combat"? I'm honestly trying to think of one but...I legitimately cannot. Are you referencing respawning or something?

    GW2 has cooldowns as well as systems in place to prevent constant ressing (and systems to facilitate safe stomps).

    Now, whether that needs tweaking is a WHOLE other discussion than ReMovE dOwNstAte.

    Because there are plenty of things that could be better. Personally I think the downstate penalty is not nearly harsh or long enough, it should be extended to 3 minutes and reduced to 3 tiers (ie 66%, 33%, insta-dead). I have seen 1v1 fights where the downed state timer literally expires and thats just stupid. I also think that just as 1:1 rally improved the game considerably, 1:1 ressing should be applied to prevent unfairly quick revivals in scenarios where you outnumber the enemy. Make people put more effort in tactical revives than just everyone spam f.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    the reason gw2 failed as an esport was first and foremost because of conquest. the second reason was because the devs didn't invest enough into it, not money, but systems that help the viewability of the game. the observer mode is bad, back during HoT the visual clutter was almost unbearable, nowadays it's just firebrand, holo and scourge that are really bad. no replay mode, no ATs, balance updates not frequent enough.

    this game would be even more of a mess without down state. people would just get oneshot all over the place and it would remove many strategic elements from the game.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes anet why did u never remove downstate that would have med bunker mes less obnoxious and we would have had million viewers.

    So, did u know that balance killed esports?
    Bunker mesmer meta in early hot made ppl not die at all for 15min btw

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Except for the fact that every other game has real resurrection skills (some even have mass rezz) that can bring people back from fully dead and that its common to fight players multiple times in a fight even when a downstate mechanic is not present.

    Some games even hinge their entire popularity on "infinite combat" , where fights basically never end.

    People need to stop wearing those vintage rose-tinted glasses.

    You're forgetting a key component to those skills you mention, though. They have cooldowns. Several minute long cooldowns. Any res ability has a comparatively short cooldown, and rub-a-dub-dub reviving has no cooldown and benefits greatly by having multiple people do it.

    Also what games are you talking about that hinge their entire popularity on "infinite combat"? I'm honestly trying to think of one but...I legitimately cannot. Are you referencing respawning or something?

    GW2 has cooldowns as well as systems in place to prevent constant ressing (and systems to facilitate safe stomps).

    Now, whether that needs tweaking is a WHOLE other discussion than ReMovE dOwNstAte.

    Because there are plenty of things that could be better. Personally I think the downstate penalty is not nearly harsh or long enough, it should be extended to 3 minutes and reduced to 3 tiers (ie 66%, 33%, insta-dead). I have seen 1v1 fights where the downed state timer literally expires and thats just stupid. I also think that just as 1:1 rally improved the game considerably, 1:1 ressing should be applied to prevent unfairly quick revivals in scenarios where you outnumber the enemy. Make people put more effort in tactical revives than just everyone spam f.

    Downstate definitely needs to be looked at, and I hope they do look at it. If they are going to be looking at base coefficients for skills, both damage and healing (I hope) and scaling them back on an as needed basis dependent on class, then they should definitely look at downstate as well.

    I wouldn't suggest entirely removing downstate without also reworking other aspects of ressing heavily but that requires significant changes to traits, to finishers, to skills, etc. Reviving in this game does need to be more tactical, or at least less shallow than how it currently functions.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What they should do is just simply add a rune set where the 6th bonus on the rune is giving say a 50% chance to instantly kill someone. Add a sigil of the same type that adds another 50% chance to kill someone; someone with both bonuses will auto kill anyone they deal the death blow on. There, done deal. Downstate can stay, but for those who are hell bent on wanting to outright kill someone (like myself), would run both the rune set and the sigil.

    Anet, if they so choose, could even make an entire new stat, call it what you want, but it adds a % to dealing a full death blow. A useful stat for roamers, but also a useful stat for people like me who thinks downstate shouldn't exist in PvP or WvW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    What they should do is just simply add a rune set where the 6th bonus on the rune is giving say a 50% chance to instantly kill someone. Add a sigil of the same type that adds another 50% chance to kill someone; someone with both bonuses will auto kill anyone they deal the death blow on. There, done deal. Downstate can stay, but for those who are hell bent on wanting to outright kill someone (like myself), would run both the rune set and the sigil.

    Anet, if they so choose, could even make an entire new stat, call it what you want, but it adds a % to dealing a full death blow. A useful stat for roamers, but also a useful stat for people like me who thinks downstate shouldn't exist in PvP or WvW.

    Only if we also get a sigil with 50% chance to kill a specific class on hit, so we can have a useful sigil for people that thinks these classes shouldnt exist in PvP or WvW.

    Deal?

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    Why do you think double herald is a thing? Sure rev is " OP" but honestly if there was no downstate you wouldnt need to run 2 revs anymore, just run anything that can kill people, but instead we need high dmg AoE cleave to be able to finish the downs otherwise theres not enough dmg. So yes that just proves how limiting and casual friendly the downstate mechanic is and its totally killing solo Q and the competitve aspect of the game or anything thats left of it rather since the majority of players quit long time ago.

    eh... not really the reason for running duo pwr rev, mainly to deal with sustainers like healbrand, was pretty much the only counter to fb scourge combo


    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    downstate is fine, remove rally. especially in wvw, its so cheap to get right back up cuz you spammed some aoe and did a couple thousand damage to some guy.

    agree, best to remove Rally
    the biggest broken thing in PvP, or be at least changed to be like WvW to only rally 1 player

    I've had came across quite a few fights where we were winning had 3 of their guys down, something like 3 up 2 down vs 3 down 2 up, then one of our downed guys got taken out, and all 3 rallied, becoming 3 ups vs 5 ups, kitten


    and of course there are few another ones annoying ones i find personally annoying

    like thief's shadow steps back miles away while doing finisher

    and for some classes have so much revive modifiers that they can brute force revive through dmg and poison, hopefully this can be somewhat be addressed with the next upcoming patch

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  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    Title is hyperbole.
    The visual noise and how boring conquest is to watch (for the majority), deterring those who aren't already invested in the scene; is the biggest reason why.

    You can't have an e-sport without spectators, even less so when hype is mainly driven by the incentives you throw in for tuning in, and worst still you're not getting any new eyes.
    Pretty sure these aspirations have been abandoned in any meaningful way and probably wont try again until balance is in order.

    Frankly, and I know many would disagree but I partly agree with these sentiments about downstate, but they are manageable and can be a fun dynamic. This is why I said back in HoT: "Quickness Stomps are healthy, and Quickness Rezs are not." But A-net threw them both away for the "sake of consistency" (one of the few times I got a direct dev response- yay~), then they found other ways to make rezs easy.

    Worst part is downstate isn't anywhere remotely equal. Thief can deny stomp twice, control their direction and do good damage at a constant rate (not just 1 thing to dodge), Ranger can self rez way to easy on top of having up to 2 denials, Warrior is kinda gg in any 1v1 situation, Engie can also deny twice. Then mes has 1 deny that they can't reliably control, doesn't fool anyone, and the one thing that does damage is a single easily avoidable and cleavable hit. Ele's is best in WvW but PvP they can move to delay point but really it's only 1 deny. Then Necros can be good, or can be awful with only 1 deny. (feel like light armor to shafted)

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2019

    "Downstate is too casual friendly, it is why the game is not esports"

    [in the distance:]

    "HEROES NEVER DIE"

    If anything downstate is less forgiving and more intricate than some games that are specifically designed for esports.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Nilkemia.8507Nilkemia.8507 Member ✭✭✭

    No, I'm sure there were a lot more (valid) reasons than downstate for why e-sports didn't work out for GW2. First one is that trying to make an MMO focus on PvP almost never works. Second is all the visual noise. Then there's the meme builds and cheap gimmicks to just blow up opponents before they can see, much less react to it, the limited and very stale mode of Conquest, and that ArenaNet's attempts to add more than that have been met with not-so-positive reception. Remember Courtyard? Stronghold? Barely anyone does, I think. While I praise SPvP for being more entry friendly then most other games I play (certainly more than any other MMO I've seen/heard/played), it's ultimately not that fun to play, and much less watch. Without the reward and pip tracks, I'm certain it'd be dead already.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2019

    OP, you have to be kidding.

    Downstate is one of the only things that is e-sports worthy about GW2 PvP.

    For people to get excited about watching something, there need to be moments that are "clutch" or "hype". Moments where things really go down to the wire and where a split-second decision or display of skill can completely turn a game around.

    About the only time you see that in GW2 is when there's a downstate rally-race, where both teams have people down, and there's an opportunity for one side to get a clutch stomp and turn around a losing position and claim the entire map.

    The only other time you really see moments like this is when someone on a zerker build adds into a losing 2v3 and insta-downs 2, turning that fight around.

    Nobody wants to watch a scrapper duel a weaver for 10 minutes.

    It's no coincidence that GW2 e-sports died when bunker-meta was at its worst.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2019

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    OP, you have to be kidding.

    Downstate is one of the only things that is e-sports worthy about GW2 PvP.

    For people to get excited about watching something, there need to be moments that are "clutch" or "hype". Moments where things really go down to the wire and where a split-second decision or display of skill can completely turn a game around.

    About the only time you see that in GW2 is when there's a downstate rally-race, where both teams have people down, and there's an opportunity for one side to get a clutch stomp and turn around a losing position and claim the entire map.

    The only other time you really see moments like this is when someone on a zerker build adds into a losing 2v3 and insta-downs 2, turning that fight around.

    Nobody wants to watch a scrapper duel a weaver for 10 minutes.

    It's no coincidence that GW2 e-sports died when bunker-meta was at its worst.

    EU Go4 47 HYPE oRNG Lord Rush from downstate!

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  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭

    Downstate is only thing that makes gw2 unique and actually clutch.

    Pure mechanics get boring to watch very soon.
    (ex. basketball, watching 100x long 3-point shots get boring fast , but going close for 2-point has unlimited combos to pass the ball)

    And gw2 doesnt even have "skillshots" anymore as most small aoes are 240 now and most clunky cast times have been shortened to viable level , so theres nothing special when you land it.

    So the only thing gw2 has left is smooth animations and jumping puzzles.

  • Despond.2174Despond.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Downed state is also a core mechanic that defines GW2 combat, allow for flex between varying numbers and skill levels in both smallscale and largescale and overall gives us the ability to help our friends in battle - something all MMOs should strive for.

    So it balances out.

    SO much this. People need to realize GW2 won't be an esport so there's no need to make a change that might in some theory "help" esport.

    Dealing with downstate is a skill in itself,--things like if there are no rez'ers leaving them with bleeds up etc--especially when you have rezer's or other attackers and knowing when to leave or when to not rez a player.

    It's a defining point about GW2 that says when you're on the ground, you're still not out. There is no rational reason to change it in this late stage of the game, the esport dream was extinguished a long time ago - and even then I wouldn't want it removed.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Of all the issues to why this isn't a good competitive PvP game I think this is at the bottom of the list. Major imbalance I think we can all agree is the biggest issue .

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • NationalNacho.5972NationalNacho.5972 Member ✭✭
    edited December 5, 2019

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    Of all the issues to why this isn't a good competitive PvP game I think this is at the bottom of the list. Major imbalance I think we can all agree is the biggest issue .

    +1 - it adds a different, interesting interaction in fights that other games dont have

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  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Revive wars 2.
    Basically what the game is.