@cmc please halt the holo nerfs and don't go throught them until you nerf rev — Guild Wars 2 Forums

@cmc please halt the holo nerfs and don't go throught them until you nerf rev

Flandre.2870Flandre.2870 Member ✭✭✭
edited December 1, 2019 in PVP

my credits; won 5 out of last 6 mats on eu
holo is already an obsolete class in organized and engineer will lose a spot in the metagame totally if you go through with these nerfs.
yes holo needs a nerf but it has to happen alongside rev ele fb and thief nerfs otehrwise you're pushing another option out of meta.
if the holo nerfs go through, class stacking will be more prelevant than ever
people will stack fbs, revs, eles, thieves
because you're pushing yet another class out of the meta
i agree that proposed changes for holo are good and are necessary for the long term health of the game
cmc i would like to sincerely inqiure for you to halt these specific changes until the patch that will nerf ele thief fb and rev alongside holo.
please do not make a mistake, no one wants to deal with calss stacking. that's the most cancerous thing in this game

<1

Comments

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    well said, if there is 5 broken builds nerfing just 1 makes things only worse.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    I'll take some nerfs over none. As you peel back the onion, it's more obvious what still stinks.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    HOLO MUST PAY FOR EVERYTHING THEY DID TO US, NERF THEM TO GROUND!

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Better just hurry up with Ele nerfs and take away some dodge frames from Rev, the dmg output is not even the problem, Rev should have good dmg but the ability of chaining tons of evades some even include stunbreaks + other def skills is just too high and makes the Rev barely punishable for going too deep. Fb is an issue but i don't think it will be as big of an issue by its own as Eles on side node will be after patch.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cmc

    Don't forget about Lock On

    1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
    2. 12 seconds of reveal
    3. 14 seconds of fury
    4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
    5. 25 second cooldown

    Don't forget about Overcharged Shot

    1. No cast time
    2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

    Ty

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Better just hurry up with Ele nerfs and take away some dodge frames from Rev, the dmg output is not even the problem, Rev should have good dmg but the ability of chaining tons of evades some even include stunbreaks + other def skills is just too high and makes the Rev barely punishable for going too deep. Fb is an issue but i don't think it will be as big of an issue by its own as Eles on side node will be after patch.

    Im curious, would you rather have rev lose some of its evade/blocks or some of it sustain throught various healing ?
    I think rev due to its class mechanic should be easy to balance, if its too strong you can increase the costs by a slight margin and see how it goes.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So say we nerf harald burst which is its thing what kind of class would it be? Nerf its evade frames? Is it a tanky class cuz seems pretty glass for a heavy armor class. Does it have large amount of defence outside of evade frames like block, invisibility, invulnerability, blinks and tele's that can be used reliably for disengagrment when pressured?
    I'm just trying to imagine a rev whither less evades having all things equal as they are now trying to servive lol or if we made its burst not as threatning how effective I'd be.
    U say u dont want stacking but in a team pvp there will always be stacking of toons that compliment each other or that are more effective than others. In a perfectly world if all classes were balanced equal which unless their all the exact same is not possible the players will always stack the most effective instead of what they actually prefer to play, at least a lot do.
    I dunno wasn't fb/scourge a issue in the past now isn't it 2xfb/rev? Are revs as effective without the super support/buffs fb gives it if so change it but if not maybe fb is the issue. I only ask as I haven't played a lot of rev but compared to most of the classes I've I'm played it's one of the hardest to learn and do well on especially since survival depends almost entirely on properly timing evade and chaining them at right time with the rest depending on skills like ward rift etc. I don't really care what they do to rev in the end but I think I'd be pretty easy to see it getting slight shaves to point of it being least picked as it was few yrs back, don't really want that for any class.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So say we nerf harald burst which is its thing what kind of class would it be? Nerf its evade frames? Is it a tanky class cuz seems pretty glass for a heavy armor class. Does it have large amount of defence outside of evade frames like block, invisibility, invulnerability, blinks and tele's that can be used reliably for disengagrment when pressured?
    I'm just trying to imagine a rev whither less evades having all things equal as they are now trying to servive lol or if we made its burst not as threatning how effective I'd be.
    U say u dont want stacking but in a team pvp there will always be stacking of toons that compliment each other or that are more effective than others. In a perfectly world if all classes were balanced equal which unless their all the exact same is not possible the players will always stack the most effective instead of what they actually prefer to play, at least a lot do.
    I dunno wasn't fb/scourge a issue in the past now isn't it 2xfb/rev? Are revs as effective without the super support/buffs fb gives it if so change it but if not maybe fb is the issue. I only ask as I haven't played a lot of rev but compared to most of the classes I've I'm played it's one of the hardest to learn and do well on especially since survival depends almost entirely on properly timing evade and chaining them at right time with the rest depending on skills like ward rift etc. I don't really care what they do to rev in the end but I think I'd be pretty easy to see it getting slight shaves to point of it being least picked as it was few yrs back, don't really want that for any class.

    Revs have very strong single target burst, strong AoE damage, good sustain, very strong mobility and high active defenses (all on low cooldowns).

    The only things that kept them in check were condi mirages and scourges. The former is still viable, wins monthlies, and sees play, but the latter doesn't.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Better just hurry up with Ele nerfs and take away some dodge frames from Rev, the dmg output is not even the problem, Rev should have good dmg but the ability of chaining tons of evades some even include stunbreaks + other def skills is just too high and makes the Rev barely punishable for going too deep. Fb is an issue but i don't think it will be as big of an issue by its own as Eles on side node will be after patch.

    Im curious, would you rather have rev lose some of its evade/blocks or some of it sustain throught various healing ?
    I think rev due to its class mechanic should be easy to balance, if its too strong you can increase the costs by a slight margin and see how it goes.

    Talking about meta Shiro Powerrev? It doesn't have too much healing and the one good heal can be countered very well (at least in high ranks where you have a chance to have 4 teammates stop attacking the Rev into his heal and don't heal him to 100% hp). Rev has a little bit too many active defensive tools, that is not as bad as passive facetank sustain but when the amount is too high that it can be spammed like Rev can, than it is too much. I would go for evade frames. The amount of stunbreaks is also very high but because Rev doesn't have any other things like invuln or disengage mobility i think that is bearable.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    Enjoy 3-4 months of borderline irrelevancy. Honestly, just play the next new "meta" star build. They all do the same thing at the end of the day.

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Better just hurry up with Ele nerfs and take away some dodge frames from Rev, the dmg output is not even the problem, Rev should have good dmg but the ability of chaining tons of evades some even include stunbreaks + other def skills is just too high and makes the Rev barely punishable for going too deep. Fb is an issue but i don't think it will be as big of an issue by its own as Eles on side node will be after patch.

    Im curious, would you rather have rev lose some of its evade/blocks or some of it sustain throught various healing ?
    I think rev due to its class mechanic should be easy to balance, if its too strong you can increase the costs by a slight margin and see how it goes.

    Imo make staff 5 not an evade.

    Rev just has too many sources of damage avoidance for a good player to reliably find windows to deal damage.

    Sword 3
    Sword 5(on another target)
    Staff 3
    Staff 5
    Shiro leap (on another target)
    Phase retreat
    Glint heal

    Among things such as stunbreak on legend swap, various blinds and speed boosters.

    Ele, thief, and mesmer all share this same problem.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @cmc

    Don't forget about Lock On

    1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
    2. 12 seconds of reveal
    3. 14 seconds of fury
    4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
    5. 25 second cooldown

    Don't forget about Overcharged Shot

    1. No cast time
    2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

    Ty

    Brilliant.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    @zoopop.5630 difference between me and you is im okay with my class getting nerfed :)

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Ryan.9387 said:
    Ele, thief, and mesmer all share this same problem.

    not ele

    when ele is evading it's not doing damage. You can just wait or precast or something

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @reikken.4961 said:

    @Ryan.9387 said:
    Ele, thief, and mesmer all share this same problem.

    not ele

    when ele is evading it's not doing damage. You can just wait or precast or something

    Not true if your damage is burns coming from primordial stance and that other fire/earth skill.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    Yes those professions also need nerf. They are less flashy in solo queue than holo but also are strong. I just do not know what should be nerfed on them. I think the problem is that their design gives them an advantage that people do not always realize (like shorter cds, more spells/adaptability, burst) because they are classified as "harder to play". But as soon as you see some of them played better or just stacked (even with average players) the effect is… wow , ridiculous :skull:

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grimjack.8130 said:
    @zoopop.5630 difference between me and you is im okay with my class getting nerfed :)

    who isn't ? Calm down boomer.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So say we nerf harald burst which is its thing what kind of class would it be? Nerf its evade frames? Is it a tanky class cuz seems pretty glass for a heavy armor class. Does it have large amount of defence outside of evade frames like block, invisibility, invulnerability, blinks and tele's that can be used reliably for disengagrment when pressured?
    I'm just trying to imagine a rev whither less evades having all things equal as they are now trying to servive lol or if we made its burst not as threatning how effective I'd be.
    U say u dont want stacking but in a team pvp there will always be stacking of toons that compliment each other or that are more effective than others. In a perfectly world if all classes were balanced equal which unless their all the exact same is not possible the players will always stack the most effective instead of what they actually prefer to play, at least a lot do.
    I dunno wasn't fb/scourge a issue in the past now isn't it 2xfb/rev? Are revs as effective without the super support/buffs fb gives it if so change it but if not maybe fb is the issue. I only ask as I haven't played a lot of rev but compared to most of the classes I've I'm played it's one of the hardest to learn and do well on especially since survival depends almost entirely on properly timing evade and chaining them at right time with the rest depending on skills like ward rift etc. I don't really care what they do to rev in the end but I think I'd be pretty easy to see it getting slight shaves to point of it being least picked as it was few yrs back, don't really want that for any class.

    Revs have very strong single target burst, strong AoE damage, good sustain, very strong mobility and high active defenses (all on low cooldowns).

    The only things that kept them in check were condi mirages and scourges. The former is still viable, wins monthlies, and sees play, but the latter doesn't.

    They have great engage mobility but defenitly not great disengage abilities compared a lot if classes that's for sure so I'd say the have great burst, good sustain,good over all mobility and the good sustain part is because of the active defenses no?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Better just hurry up with Ele nerfs and take away some dodge frames from Rev, the dmg output is not even the problem, Rev should have good dmg but the ability of chaining tons of evades some even include stunbreaks + other def skills is just too high and makes the Rev barely punishable for going too deep. Fb is an issue but i don't think it will be as big of an issue by its own as Eles on side node will be after patch.

    Im curious, would you rather have rev lose some of its evade/blocks or some of it sustain throught various healing ?
    I think rev due to its class mechanic should be easy to balance, if its too strong you can increase the costs by a slight margin and see how it goes.

    Imo make staff 5 not an evade.

    Rev just has too many sources of damage avoidance for a good player to reliably find windows to deal damage.

    Sword 3
    Sword 5(on another target)
    Staff 3
    Staff 5
    Shiro leap (on another target)
    Phase retreat
    Glint heal

    Among things such as stunbreak on legend swap, various blinds and speed boosters.

    Ele, thief, and mesmer all share this same problem.

    I agree it has high evade up time but the way u have to time those skills this give the evade frames is far more skillful than what's needed to servive on a holosmith, any warrior,scourge,scrapper,soul beast and most certainly guard/fb builds etc at least in my eyes. I've picked up most those classes and most times never felt lacking passive sustain or defensive skills but playing revs like u gotta use the skills at the right times for those evade frames or ur dead cuz its sustain nor defensive skills definitely don't feel on the lv of their heavy armor wearing buds lol. Even the heal is great IF timed well but kitten if u use it at wrong time. Slippery slop cuz how rev is could easily fall to useless if their not careful.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Better just hurry up with Ele nerfs and take away some dodge frames from Rev, the dmg output is not even the problem, Rev should have good dmg but the ability of chaining tons of evades some even include stunbreaks + other def skills is just too high and makes the Rev barely punishable for going too deep. Fb is an issue but i don't think it will be as big of an issue by its own as Eles on side node will be after patch.

    Im curious, would you rather have rev lose some of its evade/blocks or some of it sustain throught various healing ?
    I think rev due to its class mechanic should be easy to balance, if its too strong you can increase the costs by a slight margin and see how it goes.

    Imo make staff 5 not an evade.

    Rev just has too many sources of damage avoidance for a good player to reliably find windows to deal damage.

    Sword 3
    Sword 5(on another target)
    Staff 3
    Staff 5
    Shiro leap (on another target)
    Phase retreat
    Glint heal

    Among things such as stunbreak on legend swap, various blinds and speed boosters.

    Ele, thief, and mesmer all share this same problem.

    I agree it has high evade up time but the way u have to time those skills this give the evade frames is far more skillful than what's needed to servive on a holosmith, any warrior,scourge,scrapper,soul beast and most certainly guard/fb builds etc at least in my eyes. I've picked up most those classes and most times never felt lacking passive sustain or defensive skills but playing revs like u gotta use the skills at the right times for those evade frames or ur dead cuz its sustain nor defensive skills definitely don't feel on the lv of their heavy armor wearing buds lol. Even the heal is great IF timed well but kitten if u use it at wrong time. Slippery slop cuz how rev is could easily fall to useless if their not careful.

    Lucky for rev players their class mechanics will let them be nerfed in small ways, yes ?

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    I feel like this is akin to letting super bad criminal X go free to go fight super bad criminal Y. I think it's probably better to just let Average Joe A, B, and C take their chances with Y, instead of having to fight them both, y'know?

    Because we can't really trust super bad criminal X to only fight super bad criminal Y, now can we?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2019

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    I feel like this is akin to letting super bad criminal X go free to go fight super bad criminal Y. I think it's probably better to just let Average Joe A, B, and C take their chances with Y, instead of having to fight them both, y'know?

    Because we can't really trust super bad criminal X to only fight super bad criminal Y, now can we?

    Not the best analogy. If I wanted to run with your idea, a more accurate one would be like:

    5 super bad criminals in custody, but only have the public resources to litigate one, until next quarter's funds come in, so the rest walk. Oh well

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    Herald Shiro is overrated and definitely not overpowered. To fall short Vs one shows that they had already had an advantage over you before hand or there was too many CDs blown away for nothing when they were on the defensive.

    Their burst is subpart if you know when to expect it, just like Mesmer, but that burst also falls short if you just time any form of cc right as they Phase Traversal to you.

    Herald Shiro has little to no proper form of control since it sacrifices everything to just have Herald skills rather than more utility that can make it dominate fights properly. Their best utility is Infuse Light and that also falls short if you chip their health rather than go all out while also making sure they don't get any siphon with daggers.

    Put in the best way possible they can't be offensive and defensive at the same time like most professions can be because Shiro Herald is a bad combo for it. Everything else aside Ventari paired with any other legend can pull off much more damage while still not overly exposing themselves. Even Renegade Shiro has more damage and more control than Herald Shiro, the reason why people play Herald still is because they can't handle playing without invulnerable frames.

    You can believe me, if Herald heal wasn't so good, the skill ceiling for Revenant would be much higher and there would be more build diversity with it because people would not take it so much for granted.

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2019

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/515300904?t=2h34m14s

    The EU mAT final commentated by two engi mains, showing holos PoV quite a bit in the later part of the game and highlighting some of the issues that build already has in high end play at its current power level.

    I still think possibly reducing the stealth duration on toss elixir S, tuning down resustain (for example my removing leap Finisher on Holo 2) and mildly reducing quickness uptime (not as much as it has been done) would have been an okay nerf for its ranked and low elo performance without deleting it in high end play, but the changes to Elixir U and Photon Wall will now do exactly that.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP content

  • I would say one of the healthiest ways of going about reducing Rev's damage avoidance uptime would be to reduce the endurance gained from Riposting Shadows, or alternatively have it restore X amount per condition removed so it actually has a qualifier and isn't a guaranteed bonus. The legend does not need any energy cost increase or added cooldowns. The endurance gain from RS is a big part of what makes it so easy to chain evades in Shiro.

    Gremlins Gone Wild [GGW]

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mogwai.4015 said:
    I would say one of the healthiest ways of going about reducing Rev's damage avoidance uptime would be to reduce the endurance gained from Riposting Shadows, or alternatively have it restore X amount per condition removed so it actually has a qualifier and isn't a guaranteed bonus. The legend does not need any energy cost increase or added cooldowns. The endurance gain from RS is a big part of what makes it so easy to chain evades in Shiro.

    I've done the math before and Riposting Shadows generates just as much endurance Warrior gets from Might Makes Right overtime, if we nerf RS, we nerf MMR also. This endurance generation is really obvious when Spellbreakers Tether also.

  • Elxdark.9702Elxdark.9702 Member ✭✭✭

    remove pof buff thief

    Trash NA thief HITZER
    twitch

  • @Mogwai.4015 said:
    I would say one of the healthiest ways of going about reducing Rev's damage avoidance uptime would be to reduce the endurance gained from Riposting Shadows, or alternatively have it restore X amount per condition removed so it actually has a qualifier and isn't a guaranteed bonus. The legend does not need any energy cost increase or added cooldowns. The endurance gain from RS is a big part of what makes it so easy to chain evades in Shiro.

    I agree to balance professions in pvp for a more fun game. But ... rev can not be offensive and defensive at the same time, RP was already 50% nerf along with 80% of other skills were nerfs, what the hell ... complain about evasion frames because a skilled player with rev He used exactly the skills he needed to use at the time it was necessary and you also want to punish him for that, play and test before throwing the professions underground, more specifically those that have 1 or 2 playable constructions in pvp. English is not my language, excuse me.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2019

    @rev in love.8439 said:

    @Mogwai.4015 said:
    I would say one of the healthiest ways of going about reducing Rev's damage avoidance uptime would be to reduce the endurance gained from Riposting Shadows, or alternatively have it restore X amount per condition removed so it actually has a qualifier and isn't a guaranteed bonus. The legend does not need any energy cost increase or added cooldowns. The endurance gain from RS is a big part of what makes it so easy to chain evades in Shiro.

    I agree to balance professions in pvp for a more fun game. But ... rev can not be offensive and defensive at the same time, RP was already 50% nerf along with 80% of other skills were nerfs, what the hell ... complain about evasion frames because a skilled player with rev He used exactly the skills he needed to use at the time it was necessary and you also want to punish him for that, play and test before throwing the professions underground, more specifically those that have 1 or 2 playable constructions in pvp. English is not my language, excuse me.

    This is exactly my point as well. Rev has great sustain if ur skilled and have the reaction timing to chain the right skills at the right time to use the evades. That's how it should be but gw2 players wouldn't recognize that as 90% of the game has been dumbed down and all they see is alot of evade up time. To them rev would be better with a few more op skills at a push of a button like invulnerability,blocks etc and not have the option to if skilled enough to chain so many evades lol slowly the players and the devs are stripping this game of any skillful out play potentials and replacing it with dumb down cheese bursts- present and future of gw2.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @cmc

    Don't forget about Lock On

    1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
    2. 12 seconds of reveal
    3. 14 seconds of fury
    4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
    5. 25 second cooldown

    Don't forget about Overcharged Shot

    1. No cast time
    2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

    Ty

    nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @azzardome.9184 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @cmc

    Don't forget about Lock On

    1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
    2. 12 seconds of reveal
    3. 14 seconds of fury
    4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
    5. 25 second cooldown

    Don't forget about Overcharged Shot

    1. No cast time
    2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

    Ty

    nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

    Sure buddy.

    In melee range:

    Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

    Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Illusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Rifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast time
    Staggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Counterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

    etc. etc.

    Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @azzardome.9184 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @cmc

    Don't forget about Lock On

    1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
    2. 12 seconds of reveal
    3. 14 seconds of fury
    4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
    5. 25 second cooldown

    Don't forget about Overcharged Shot

    1. No cast time
    2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

    Ty

    nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

    Sure buddy.

    In melee range:

    Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

    Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Illusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Rifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast time
    Staggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Counterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

    etc. etc.

    Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

    Launch is close enough.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Updraft

    Counterattack kick cast time is lower than 3/4.

    Guardian shield 5

    But this all is only valuable in context. You can see the rifle projectile and dodge it regardless of cast time.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @azzardome.9184 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @cmc

    Don't forget about Lock On

    1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
    2. 12 seconds of reveal
    3. 14 seconds of fury
    4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
    5. 25 second cooldown

    Don't forget about Overcharged Shot

    1. No cast time
    2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

    Ty

    nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

    Sure buddy.

    In melee range:

    Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

    Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Illusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Rifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast time
    Staggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Counterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

    etc. etc.

    Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

    Launch is close enough.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Updraft

    Counterattack kick cast time is lower than 3/4.

    Guardian shield 5

    But this all is only valuable in context. You can see the rifle projectile and dodge it regardless of cast time.

    Not if you're in melee or close to melee.

    Also Launches are significantly more devastating than simple knockbacks. With a knockbacks you are able to move within a fraction of a second after you finish traveling. Blow outs take seconds to recover even after you are done traveling.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Community: Nerf Weaver. It's clearly overperforming with its constant heals and evade spam

    Anet: No prob bro I gotchu

    Community: Daredevil is destroying 1v1s with it's constant evade spam

    Anet: Daredevils only have 2 evades in PvP only. Vault evade reduced to 1/4 seconds.

    Community: kitten are you doing Anet. You nerfed two of the best duelists but left mesmer untouched and now nothing can touch them.

    Anet: We're nerfing both pistol and greatsword.

    Community: Fireb--

    Anet: Nerfed.

    Several months pass. . .

    Community: What were you thinking Anet? Letting druids be this strong in pvp? they bunker a node for days, you can never catch them with all the stealth spam with CA and LB and the evade frames on Sword 2. Nerf it!

    Several more months pass. . .

    Community: What happened to this game? PvP used to take skill. I remember the days when a skilled player could 1v2 or even 1v3. Now everyone just runs in and spams their PvE rotation. It feels like the gap between a skilled player and unskilled player has only gotten smaller over time.

    Wait... why does that last bit sound familiar?

    Right, that's exactly what happened to WoW!

    Be careful what you wish for.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @azzardome.9184 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Don't forget about Overcharged Shot

    1. No cast time
    2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

    Ty

    nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

    Sure buddy.

    In melee range:

    Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

    Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Illusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Rifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast time
    Staggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Counterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

    etc. etc.

    Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

    Launch is close enough.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Updraft

    Counterattack kick cast time is lower than 3/4.

    Guardian shield 5

    But this all is only valuable in context. You can see the rifle projectile and dodge it regardless of cast time.

    Not if you're in melee or close to melee.

    Also Launches are significantly more devastating than simple knockbacks. With a knockbacks you are able to move within a fraction of a second after you finish traveling. Blow outs take seconds to recover even after you are done traveling.

    yes. and overcharged shot is a launch, while those others are just knockbacks.
    It's probably allowed to be instant because it technically also CC's the user, though for a much shorter duration.

  • Rev should get a nerf but not that hard, just a slightly nerf, like anet should not nerf it to unusable death, more maybe reduce the effectiveness of some skills

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    Rev should get a nerf but not that hard, just a slightly nerf, like anet should not nerf it to unusable death, more maybe reduce the effectiveness of some skills

    do mesmer treatment and reduce half the skills by 50% :D

  • @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Flandre.2870 said:

    if the holo nerfs go through, class stacking will be more prelevant than ever

    Here's an idea I've been saying for years, how about they just lock in your class when you que for ranked. But you're still able to change your build on said class. This nonsense of playing chicken with seeing who can hard counter who with class swaps before the game starts is absurd.

    Noooooo, just hush, they'll tell you, the community voted for....

    I think they talk about the 5% of the people in the game who connect to the forum...

    And the new players they have the right to vote or not ??

    For my part, even though I'm here since 2012, I've never seen a "vote" and I've never voted.

    I ask for a new vote (even if I'm abusing myself and I change my class everytime when it's 20 secs :p)

    Troll since 1982.

  • Don Vega Van Kain.9842Don Vega Van Kain.9842 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @Falan.1839 said:
    ^ this. This guy here has abused pretty much every cancerous thing in the last metas during the recent mATs, you can safely assume he understands it.

    Not just in the recent mAT's, I watched his exploits for a long time, he already abused every cancerous build in the game for years :D and you know what ? he's right and smart.

    Not his fault if it take @net decades to balance their game.

    Troll since 1982.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thing is these holo nerfs are not that bad compared to what was done to some of the other professions.

    I say deal with it holo will still be mostly a high damage low risk elite spec overall until the heat cost or passive heat generation on photon forge is increased holo is going to be strong af. Over worrying about holo nerfs is totally pointless your spec will be fine lets not pretend it wont be.

    Alot of other specs are going to survive against revs and other insane meta things with much less than holo has so just deal lol.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Sure buddy.

    In melee range:

    Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

    Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Illusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Rifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast time
    Staggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Counterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

    etc. etc.

    Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

    Are you forgetting a dew details?

    Like number of targets? AoE? Penalties? Cherry-picking data isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

    Overcharged shot can only launch one target in front of the player and has a self-inflicted penalty. Rifle butt, for example, can hit three targets. Illusionary wave can hit five, as can staggering blow. Counterattack kick can hit three targets and includes evade frames.

    And before you start griping about "holo has all this stability," don't forget that they're nerfing access to stability (again), and that rifle is a core engineer weapon.

    those few details dont outweight the positives by a MILE.
    its not 10-15% dmg or range difference its triple damage, and triple range.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Sure buddy.

    In melee range:

    Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

    Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Illusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Rifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast time
    Staggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Counterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

    etc. etc.

    Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

    Are you forgetting a dew details?

    Like number of targets? AoE? Penalties? Cherry-picking data isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

    Overcharged shot can only launch one target in front of the player and has a self-inflicted penalty. Rifle butt, for example, can hit three targets. Illusionary wave can hit five, as can staggering blow. Counterattack kick can hit three targets and includes evade frames.

    And before you start griping about "holo has all this stability," don't forget that they're nerfing access to stability (again), and that rifle is a core engineer weapon.

    those few details dont outweight the positives by a MILE.
    its not 10-15% dmg or range difference its triple damage, and triple range.

    They do though. The self-CC is a very relevant part of the skill and is probably the reason why it is allowed to be instant. There are many situations where OC shot hurts the engi more than it helps:

    • If your opponent predicts it and pops reflect, you end up double-CC-ing yourself.
    • If your opponent has a passive CC cancel, you end up CC-ing yourself while not CC-ing them.
    • If you are in a 1v2, you may CC one of the players, but the other will jump on you while you're self-CCd

    Now, most holosmiths will avoid this by combining it with a stability skill to negate the self-CC. I personally don't think this should work, but even still. It's using 2 skills to achieve 1 CC. That no longer makes it an instant CC since you need to use another skill (most with their own cast times) first in order to prevent the self-knockback.

    Back when I used to run core rifle engi, I would have gladly traded all of Overcharged Shot's damage, half its range, and even added a small cast time if it meant avoiding the self-knockback.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Sure buddy.

    In melee range:

    Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

    Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Illusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Rifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast time
    Staggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast time
    Counterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

    etc. etc.

    Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

    Are you forgetting a dew details?

    Like number of targets? AoE? Penalties? Cherry-picking data isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

    Overcharged shot can only launch one target in front of the player and has a self-inflicted penalty. Rifle butt, for example, can hit three targets. Illusionary wave can hit five, as can staggering blow. Counterattack kick can hit three targets and includes evade frames.

    And before you start griping about "holo has all this stability," don't forget that they're nerfing access to stability (again), and that rifle is a core engineer weapon.

    It's an instant cast hard cc in melee range. It can also cc people from range as well.

    But, the INSTANT CAST HARD CC is the important thing that you people are trying to draw attention away from.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    But, the INSTANT CAST HARD CC is the important thing that you people are trying to draw attention away from.

    By many definitions it isn't instant, can't use it while dazed or CC'd, can be interrupted or weapon stow'd during the cast. The tooltip should reflect a 1/4s cast or so

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.