Conditions and some words about them — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Conditions and some words about them

Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

My dislike for conditions in PvP and why*

*Just an opinionated rant. I'm speaking as an average ranked player, not the upper echelon of the most skilled sPvP players.


TL;DR

  • DoT abilities should never be a main source of damage in a PvP setting, only supplementary.
  • Every profession should only have access to a set few conditions that match their theme. Having to deal with cleansing AND avoiding cleansing "blanket" conditions is super frustrating.
  • Condition application is too frequent for the damage it can do and the amount of them that can be output.

Why are they unhealthy for a PvP environment?

They are a low risk, high reward damage source as they are designed now. It's easy to spec into being tanky with high condition damage. This allows people to play offensively and defensively at the same time which is "ideal" but not healthy for PvP in a game. A major part of what makes PvP fun (for me at least) is having to read your opponent and situation to know when to switch between defense/offense. Being able to do both at once turns fights into a battle of attrition and puts people who are not built for offense/defense simultaneously at a instant disadvantage.

With the amount of different conditions that can be applied by a single profession it can make cleansing difficult if not impossible at some points. Not to mention it's child's play to bait out cleanses with minor condition application or blanket conditions since the sources from which to apply conditions are usually pretty varied. The sheer number of conditions that can be output by something like DrD, Mirage, FB, or Necro while being able to avoid/tank damage is staggering. You also usually can apply them in an AoE and they have little to no tell and are very hard to read.

Getting to the crux of the question, they are unhealthy because they promote a "fire and forget" gameplay style that allows for simultaneous defense/offense. Conditions should come with drawbacks just like power. Going "full condition" should require you to sacrifice some defensive capabilities OR conditions should be a slow burn effect that only partly contribute to your damage overall.


Problem conditions

Burning

Burning is way too strong (this is coming from someone who just started playing fire weaver). You can absolutely delete someone with 6-10 stacks of burning in a second or two if they don't have a cleanse up. Not to mention you can apply them faster than a majority of people can cleanse so even if they do cleanse I'll have my burn application abilities up again before they can cleanse it again. Burn FB can also accomplish something similar. It's not like the burning stacks are built up over time, they show up in quick succession and if you let them tick more than once then RIP. For burning I would suggest a decrease in the amount of stacks that can be applied at once in proportion to an increase in the time they last. That way you can provide supplementary damage and if ignored for a long time the damage will become major but not hit all at once. The idea would be to apply a constant stream of 1-3 stacks of burning weaved in with small bursts of power damage.

Cripple/Immob

There just need to be less sources of this. It's common, it's annoying, and can be easily used to cover damaging conditions. It's just not fun to play at points where you have 100% cripple up time because you can't waste a cleanse on it. It wont win someone a fight it's just not enjoyable to play against. I'll repeat this several times Taking away or reducing a players agency is not a fun game mechanic. This is why stuns are (usually) short and few and far between. Cripple/Immob isn't a stun but it still reduces the agency the player has.

Chill

This condition alone can shut down the whole profession of elementalist and is downright annoying on any other. As above, Taking away or reducing a players agency is not a fun game mechanic.. Not only does this slow you more than cripple, it slows your ability to react with skills. It's more or less an "almost stun" but usually lasts much longer and "breaking out" of it requires you to waste a cleanse you should be saving for damaging conditions. For this one I would remove the speed reduction and instead of causing all skills to go on longer cooldown only increase the cooldown of skills that are used during the chills uptime.

Slow

See Chill

Confusion

This is in a similar boat as burning. You shouldn't be able to stack enough confession to straight up kill someone with it especially since it targets your opponents agency. This should be a slow burn effect that racks up major damage over time if your opponent goes a long time without paying attention to it.

These are only the ones I see as major "issue" conditions, the others can be addressed by reducing the number of stacks of them that can be applied.


Common rebuttals

"Just dodge"

No u

"If you reduce conditions to a slow DoT effect, they'll be worthless!"

Only if you don't reapply them when cleansed. Conditions are essentially Damage Over Time effects, the key word being TIME. They should take time to really take effect. Being able to stack up enough conditions to kill someone in 1-2 ticks basically eliminates the time element.

"If you reduce condition build's defenses they wont be able to stay alive long enough to kill someone"

I said reduce, not delete. If you build for high condition damage you should be tankier than a glass power build but not be an M1 Abrams.

"These kind of changes would make power build meta and condi builds completely obsolete!"

Good, full condition builds in PvP is not a fun mechanic to play against. Conditions should be a tactic that contributes to you winning a fight, not the entire reason you win it.

Depression and anxiety are the worst...

<1

Comments

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @Nix.3152 said:
    everything you said could be ok but now right now when most of the classes have a lot of condi removal. there is power creep in everything: damage, condis, healing, boons, evading/blocking. in older days of gw2 condis were way less powerful but so were condi removal skills. condis were counter to high toughness builds with high protection uptime.

    This is a good point. My complaints would have to come with reductions to condi cleanse as well. It's more an symptom of overall power creep.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    But doing 30k damage in 2 seconds is still technically Damage over Time (time being 2 seconds) :trollface:

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  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Your problem condition list seems a bit biased imo.

    I find chill a bit hard to understand because its kind of rare outside of necromancer which in itself has had great number of chill nerfs. Really you dont feel chill hurting your mobility unless you are a ele or another necromancer so im troubling to understand that one. Ive ran super invested chill builds against people and only then do they find it annoying and that requires trait rune, and weapon, and utility investment to really drive it home.
    Cripple is a bit too common but it kind of has to be if both the chill and cripple conditions also reduced movement skills like they use to i could agree on cutting back cripple durations a bit more but as of right now both chill and cripple are not that big a deals for most professions.

    Especially on keep away professions that need conditions like chill and cripple whats also not fun is having a profession with super limited mobility and have someone dance around you because their base speed is greater, they have more evades, or more movement skills in their weapon kit.

    Slow, like chill, is pretty rare pretty much only used by chronos which are rare in pvp today. The only other common source of slow is arcane thievery which is sad really i want to see more things in the game actually be able to apply slow where it makes sense that it could.

    burning just does too much in general in pvp it needs to be scaled down which no one is going to argue but the problem here might be more so with the counts of burning that can be stacked at one time.

    immobile is pretty rare especially in long durations usually only ranger can apply long durations of this and what use to be mesmer with CI i for the most part thing immobe is fine no one has a ton of it anymore aside from ranger with entangle.

    What about bleed, torment, and poison?
    This is why im starting to think your problem condition list is a bit bias, all conditions are problematic in some way or none of them are in most cases you cant just pick out a few that might bother what you play the most which is what it seems like you might have done.

    That said i dont discredit the facts you pointed out and the topic / conversation you want to bring about with your post this is a interesting way of looking at combat and some other games are made where conditions are pretty much almost a non factor but that starts to limit diversity if you cut things back too much or it becomes unfair if you limit it so that only 1 profession is capable of really still working with conditions well while others cannont by almost any means.

    What about lowering condition caps in general?

    If you want to limit conditions just limit the max caps to a lower number in competitive settings if no damaging condition could stack above 10 counts then that would limit how much condition damage could be done at max at any given time by any given build or profession. Even if application was constant nothing would be stacking about 10 counts which would encourage a min max play style for condition builds to weave in and out from offensive to defensive play styles there would be no reason to over pressure someone at the max condition count by trying to drown them in more condition.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:>
    What about lowering condition caps in general?

    As long as you limit the amount of damage you can take from power if multiple targets are hitting you.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:>
    What about lowering condition caps in general?

    As long as you limit the amount of damage you can take from power if multiple targets are hitting you.

    most power damage is fine the issue with power strikes over performing is the insane might gen that alot of professions have. You tone the might down and their goes their damage. its not quite the same with conditions right now.

    Right now some condition builds perform like power builds while keeping the sustain that running a condition build provides. ITs naturally for condition builds to have more sustain so that the conditions have time to do damage and so that you can survive while waiting for that damage to be done. But for example weaver burn combos melt you like you ate at a power burst combo from a warrior and that should not be a thing in the game.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Your problem condition list seems a bit biased imo.

    I find chill a bit hard to understand because its kind of rare outside of necromancer which in itself has had great number of chill nerfs. Really you dont feel chill hurting your mobility unless you are a ele or another necromancer so im troubling to understand that one. Ive ran super invested chill builds against people and only then do they find it annoying and that requires trait rune, and weapon, and utility investment to really drive it home.
    Cripple is a bit too common but it kind of has to be if both the chill and cripple conditions also reduced movement skills like they use to i could agree on cutting back cripple durations a bit more but as of right now both chill and cripple are not that big a deals for most professions.

    Especially on keep away professions that need conditions like chill and cripple whats also not fun is having a profession with super limited mobility and have someone dance around you because their base speed is greater, they have more evades, or more movement skills in their weapon kit.

    Slow, like chill, is pretty rare pretty much only used by chronos which are rare in pvp today. The only other common source of slow is arcane thievery which is sad really i want to see more things in the game actually be able to apply slow where it makes sense that it could.

    burning just does too much in general in pvp it needs to be scaled down which no one is going to argue but the problem here might be more so with the counts of burning that can be stacked at one time.

    immobile is pretty rare especially in long durations usually only ranger can apply long durations of this and what use to be mesmer with CI i for the most part thing immobe is fine no one has a ton of it anymore aside from ranger with entangle.

    What about bleed, torment, and poison?
    This is why im starting to think your problem condition list is a bit bias, all conditions are problematic in some way or none of them are in most cases you cant just pick out a few that might bother what you play the most which is what it seems like you might have done.

    That said i dont discredit the facts you pointed out and the topic / conversation you want to bring about with your post this is a interesting way of looking at combat and some other games are made where conditions are pretty much almost a non factor but that starts to limit diversity if you cut things back too much or it becomes unfair if you limit it so that only 1 profession is capable of really still working with conditions well while others cannont by almost any means.

    What about lowering condition caps in general?

    If you want to limit conditions just limit the max caps to a lower number in competitive settings if no damaging condition could stack above 10 counts then that would limit how much condition damage could be done at max at any given time by any given build or profession. Even if application was constant nothing would be stacking about 10 counts which would encourage a min max play style for condition builds to weave in and out from offensive to defensive play styles there would be no reason to over pressure someone at the max condition count by trying to drown them in more condition.

    It is biased, I started with saying it's an opinionated rant. The reason the list is short is just because I'm at work and decided to cut things short and lump the rest I didn't cover into a generalization. I just target the ones I find to be the most annoying, personally.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    It is biased, I started with saying it's an opinionated rant. The reason the list is short is just because I'm at work and decided to cut things short and lump the rest I didn't cover into a generalization. I just target the ones I find to be the most annoying, personally.

    Understandable and knowing this your list makes more sense to me.
    I personally find burning very frustrating to deal with (in high counts) and immoblize depending on how it was applied. When a ranger does it its "how annoying but i can handle this" when the old mesmer CI was doing it it was just bang head against desk or wall level infuriating.

    But all conditions are problematic in some way. I personally think torment should not exist in the game in its current form and that the way torment works should have just been how bleed works from the start.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    LOL PEOPLE COMPLAINJ ABOUT CONDI DAMAGE WHILE POWER PLAYERS ARE DOING 20k PER HIT WITH WARRIORS/RANGERS/HOLOS

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    LOL PEOPLE COMPLAINJ ABOUT CONDI DAMAGE WHILE POWER PLAYERS ARE DOING 20k PER HIT WITH WARRIORS/RANGERS/HOLOS

    I never said power wasn't also broken but I find condi more annoying so that's what I'm addressing here.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:>
    What about lowering condition caps in general?

    As long as you limit the amount of damage you can take from power if multiple targets are hitting you.

    most power damage is fine the issue with power strikes over performing is the insane might gen that alot of professions have. You tone the might down and their goes their damage. its not quite the same with conditions right now.

    Right now some condition builds perform like power builds while keeping the sustain that running a condition build provides. ITs naturally for condition builds to have more sustain so that the conditions have time to do damage and so that you can survive while waiting for that damage to be done. But for example weaver burn combos melt you like you ate at a power burst combo from a warrior and that should not be a thing in the game.

    The limit idea is just bad....player A interacting with player B should have no impact on me, player C, interacting with player A.

    To be honest that was just a quick idea but probably not the best one, but i see what you mean the issue is more player A melting player B quicker than power build Player C can nuke Player B when anet said conditions are explicitly not suppose to work that way.

    This is my problem with this entire argument every time it comes up and its always, in the most general sense:
    "Insert condi build here is a problem so all conditions are a problem" VS "Insert power build here is an issue and here are the points that are causing that build to be an issue".

    Most power builds are not as safe as alot of the condition builds they are compared to lets not forget this the safest power build was high evasion staff thief which was using the bugged staff 3 and we saw what happened so expect the same to condition builds that are called out within similar reasoning.

    You specifically mention fire weaver but if all conditions were a problem then this build would have always been an issue but it wasn't until the fire line and ele burning got a buff. Where are my complaints about condi engi, condi warrior, condi ranger, rev? When one of them gets a condi build thats strong are all conditions to blame once again? Where were the complaints about fire weaver before the buff? There weren't any because non-mender water weaver was considered bad.

    I mentioned fire weaver as an example but you can also look at poison thief or staff mirage before the nerfs if you like, heck even firebrand. Weaver is probably one of my least concerning elites when it comes to looking at the annoyance of conditions.

    And i dont even think the fire line buff was the issue the issue was specifically just weaver with primordial stance and being able to perform evades while it pulsed generally speaking you just cant fight a weaver till they leave fire or their stances are not active because its over punishing to be in melee range of them that said kiting is a solution.

    As far as condi engi, warrior, ranger and rev (which they all do have builds some which solid believe it or not) are not complained about because they dont instantly melt you after landing afew taps and are not as safe while applying their conditions or their applications have very blunt down times in which if you evade or clense burst you have ample time combat them.

    There are reasons why those builds are not complained about because they are seen as more balanced properly than some of the other major offenders (most of which are just too safe for the damage they deal)

    Its even in your post in bold. "Power builds that generate a lot of might are an issue" VS "Some condi builds are over-tuned so the damage type is OP and needs handicapping". People need to get over the bias and generalisation. Conditions in general are mostly fine, just like power is mostly fine. Just there are some build in both that are over-tuned.

    Once again one example of many i could list out my issue with each condition if you wanted because almost all of them have something i dont like about them but then again they are conditions you are not suppose to like them when they are on you. I could say i have a small issue with each condition and in some cases its not on what its doing to me its on what its not doing to the target its applied to.

    I would go as far as to say that condi as a damage type is weak. Because in the current game state cleanse is so high that if you aren't on a build that puts out a lot of variety, reapplication or both you are borderline irrelevant.

    Cleanses are high because condition pressure is high it only make sense dont say conditions are weak just because people run cleanses that makes no sense.
    Everyone runs a generous amount of cleanse because they dont want to be instantly melted if they happen to take a few hits but those few hits applied 10 burn or some how you ended up with 22 confusion 15 torment etc.

    Wide verity does not always mean its better though it can mean that only if everyone is like that though.
    So long as most professions only have 1 or 2 conditions to focus on it will mean your stack counts reach insane numbers very fast which causes people to instantly melt if anything i would prefer everyone had a wider spread, for longer durations, with much much lower stack counts (similar to what you see with core necormancer) so its not instantly killing you. Especially if you apply your conditions extremely safely.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    LOL PEOPLE COMPLAINJ ABOUT CONDI DAMAGE WHILE POWER PLAYERS ARE DOING 20k PER HIT WITH WARRIORS/RANGERS/HOLOS

    I never said power wasn't also broken but I find condi more annoying so that's what I'm addressing here.

    i don't see how having a chance to fight back and clean everything is annoying, annoying to me is not having a chance to fight back

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    Some classes apply too much of it, which renders cleanse pretty useless and others don’t apply enough of it. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a condi ranger in pvp, I’ve tried it and it’s a joke compared to thieves, Mesmers, Nercos, burn guards and eles.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:>
    What about lowering condition caps in general?

    As long as you limit the amount of damage you can take from power if multiple targets are hitting you.

    most power damage is fine the issue with power strikes over performing is the insane might gen that alot of professions have. You tone the might down and their goes their damage. its not quite the same with conditions right now.

    Right now some condition builds perform like power builds while keeping the sustain that running a condition build provides. ITs naturally for condition builds to have more sustain so that the conditions have time to do damage and so that you can survive while waiting for that damage to be done. But for example weaver burn combos melt you like you ate at a power burst combo from a warrior and that should not be a thing in the game.

    The limit idea is just bad....player A interacting with player B should have no impact on me, player C, interacting with player A.

    The point about sustain..some of the current and historic builds with the highest sustain have been power builds? Condi builds don't inherently have more sustain than power builds.

    This is my problem with this entire argument every time it comes up and its always, in the most general sense:
    "Insert condi build here is a problem so all conditions are a problem" VS "Insert power build here is an issue and here are the points that are causing that build to be an issue".

    You specifically mention fire weaver but if all conditions were a problem then this build would have always been an issue but it wasn't until the fire line and ele burning got a buff. Where are my complaints about condi engi, condi warrior, condi ranger, rev? When one of them gets a condi build thats strong are all conditions to blame once again? Where were the complaints about fire weaver before the buff? There weren't any because non-mender water weaver was considered bad.

    Its even in your post in bold. "Power builds that generate a lot of might are an issue" VS "Some condi builds are over-tuned so the damage type is OP and needs handicapping". People need to get over the bias and generalisation. Conditions in general are mostly fine, just like power is mostly fine. Just there are some build in both that are over-tuned.

    I would go as far as to say that condi as a damage type is weak. Because in the current game state cleanse is so high that if you aren't on a build that puts out a lot of variety, reapplication or both you are borderline irrelevant.

    I never said power didn't have its issues and I did say this is an opinionated rant in the fine print. They both have their broken builds but here I'm addressing condi because I find it more annoying than power, personally, my opinion. I'm not trying trying to change anyone's mind one way or another, I'm just venting my frustration after having faced condi after condi after condi build in sPvP. I also do not like getting 100-0 by rifle warrior at the moment but they are easier to deal with and are fewer than the constant condi I run into.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    LOL PEOPLE COMPLAINJ ABOUT CONDI DAMAGE WHILE POWER PLAYERS ARE DOING 20k PER HIT WITH WARRIORS/RANGERS/HOLOS

    I never said power wasn't also broken but I find condi more annoying so that's what I'm addressing here.

    i don't see how having a chance to fight back and clean everything is annoying, annoying to me is not having a chance to fight back

    That's just my point, you don't really have anymore of a chance to fight back than with those power builds. Instead of being "Bang" -dead from a rifle warrior one shooting you; you get covered, cleanse, get covered, cleanse, get covered "you are out of cleanses" and end up hobbling around in slow motion while your face melts in <2 seconds. It's my opinion anyways, I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    there are literarly 2-3 viable condi builds in pvp.
    1 cmirage
    2 core necro
    and 3 weaver.
    honorable mention c thief?
    meanwhile there is 10+ power builds, take your condi hate away.
    I 100% disagree with everything but burning, but its class specific.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

    They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold. Same goes for power Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    there are literarly 2-3 viable condi builds in pvp.
    1 cmirage
    2 core necro
    and 3 weaver.
    honorable mention c thief?
    meanwhile there is 10+ power builds, take your condi hate away.
    I 100% disagree with everything but burning, but its class specific.

    I don't have enough cleanses to remove the hate, so have some more. It really isn't necessary for PvP. You can tell by the lack of heavy use of DoT skills in most other PvP games. They do exist, but nothing to the extent of what GW2 boasts. The only "condi" builds there should be are hybrid builds at best. With anet and how they balance PvP it either ends up being OP or useless, I would rather it just be useless and go full tilt into power.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    there are literarly 2-3 viable condi builds in pvp.
    1 cmirage
    2 core necro
    and 3 weaver.
    honorable mention c thief?
    meanwhile there is 10+ power builds, take your condi hate away.
    I 100% disagree with everything but burning, but its class specific.

    I don't have enough cleanses to remove the hate, so have some more. It really isn't necessary for PvP. You can tell by the lack of heavy use of DoT skills in most other PvP games. They do exist, but nothing to the extent of what GW2 boasts. The only "condi" builds there should be are hybrid builds at best. With anet and how they balance PvP it either ends up being OP or useless, I would rather it just be useless and go full tilt into power.

    removing condi will just make revenant and other anti power builds kitten disgustingly broken, but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    If that happens we would see monkey warriors facetank power dmg for days, clowns running full toughtness sets with perma prot taking no damage, FuN

    TLDR
    condi is kinda annoying me so I want it gone, OpS balance even more broken, now time to nerf half the kitten roster becouse their counters got deleted.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    there are literarly 2-3 viable condi builds in pvp.
    1 cmirage
    2 core necro
    and 3 weaver.
    honorable mention c thief?
    meanwhile there is 10+ power builds, take your condi hate away.
    I 100% disagree with everything but burning, but its class specific.

    I don't have enough cleanses to remove the hate, so have some more. It really isn't necessary for PvP. You can tell by the lack of heavy use of DoT skills in most other PvP games. They do exist, but nothing to the extent of what GW2 boasts. The only "condi" builds there should be are hybrid builds at best. With anet and how they balance PvP it either ends up being OP or useless, I would rather it just be useless and go full tilt into power.

    removing condi will just make revenant and other anti power builds kitten disgustingly broken, but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    If that happens we would see monkey warriors facetank power dmg for days, clowns running full toughtness sets with perma prot taking no damage, FuN

    TLDR
    condi is kinda annoying me so I want it gone, OpS balance even more broken, now time to nerf half the kitten roster becouse their counters got deleted.


    but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.

    Oh by golly gee, you sure got me there!....keep your passive aggressive comments at home. PvP is toxic enough without them.

    Seriously though, I have not said nor been suggesting power is A-Okay and needs no changes. If you did reduce condi's prevalence there would obviously have to be other changes. You're throwing out this what-about-ism with power but that's not what I'm addressing here. I dislike playing against condi so I'm addressing condi. This isn't a "how to balance and fix all PvP" thread.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

    They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold. Same goes for power Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

    I think Zdragon hit the nail on the head, and that is fixing the condi applications of these offenders rather than mass nerfs, and making so you aren't necessarily 100% unable to do anything about it helpless. Like if a class dazes and stuns you and puts 15 burns on you and instantly melts you, to me thats not good, perhaps without those 15 burns it would be ok like 3-4 burns at once but not 15.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

    They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold. Same goes for power Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

    I think Zdragon hit the nail on the head, and that is fixing the condi applications of these offenders rather than mass nerfs, and making so you aren't necessarily 100% unable to do anything about it helpless. Like if a class dazes and stuns you and puts 15 burns on you and instantly melts you, to me thats not good, perhaps without those 15 burns it would be ok like 3-4 burns at once but not 15.

    I would be okay with that if I trusted Anet to keep it balanced but as soon as they nerf the OP builds you know something else is going to get boosted to OP next patch. Me, personally, I would rather just not have condi be prevalent in PvP at all than having to keep dealing with the rollercoaster of condi builds that pop up from patch to patch.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have a problem when thinking of this.

    Necros who have conditions and ar every condition oriented with boon corrupt ddo quite bit of pressure, how would you deal with that?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    there are literarly 2-3 viable condi builds in pvp.
    1 cmirage
    2 core necro
    and 3 weaver.
    honorable mention c thief?
    meanwhile there is 10+ power builds, take your condi hate away.
    I 100% disagree with everything but burning, but its class specific.

    I don't have enough cleanses to remove the hate, so have some more. It really isn't necessary for PvP. You can tell by the lack of heavy use of DoT skills in most other PvP games. They do exist, but nothing to the extent of what GW2 boasts. The only "condi" builds there should be are hybrid builds at best. With anet and how they balance PvP it either ends up being OP or useless, I would rather it just be useless and go full tilt into power.

    removing condi will just make revenant and other anti power builds kitten disgustingly broken, but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    If that happens we would see monkey warriors facetank power dmg for days, clowns running full toughtness sets with perma prot taking no damage, FuN

    TLDR
    condi is kinda annoying me so I want it gone, OpS balance even more broken, now time to nerf half the kitten roster becouse their counters got deleted.


    but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.
    but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.

    Oh by golly gee, you sure got me there!....keep your passive aggressive comments at home. PvP is toxic enough without them.

    Seriously though, I have not said nor been suggesting power is A-Okay and needs no changes. If you did reduce condi's prevalence there would obviously have to be other changes. You're throwing out this what-about-ism with power but that's not what I'm addressing here. I dislike playing against condi so I'm addressing condi. This isn't a "how to balance and fix all PvP" thread.

    Its an useless whiny thread, so I treat it as such, I find CC annoying, lets remove 70% CC from the game, nevermind that its stronger against some classes more then others, doesnt matter, as long as it annoys ME less.
    I Dont care that It will require to balance all the classes again, it annoys ME less.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

    They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold. Same goes for power Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

    I think Zdragon hit the nail on the head, and that is fixing the condi applications of these offenders rather than mass nerfs, and making so you aren't necessarily 100% unable to do anything about it helpless. Like if a class dazes and stuns you and puts 15 burns on you and instantly melts you, to me thats not good, perhaps without those 15 burns it would be ok like 3-4 burns at once but not 15.

    I disagree, If a power spec can stun me, and down me before stun ends, then there is NO reason for condi spec to be unable to apply enough condi to down somebody.
    3-4 burs would deal 6-10k dmg, this is the range of 1 highrolled power hit.
    Lets have theoretical scenarion.
    1 Warrior bullscharges into you, you cant remove CC. He follows up with Arcing and hundred blades -> how much damage should this reasonably do ?
    2 Cmirage hits you with magic bullet, you cant remove CC. He follows up with p4 into scepter 3 and shatters -> how much worth of condi should that do?

    Becouse RN warrior will hit 5k BC -> 6k arcing, and 5k+ blades.
    Cmirage would land 200 dmg p5, 2k p4, 2k scept 3, and leave you with 8k bleed and confusion.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    LOL PEOPLE COMPLAINJ ABOUT CONDI DAMAGE WHILE POWER PLAYERS ARE DOING 20k PER HIT WITH WARRIORS/RANGERS/HOLOS

    I never said power wasn't also broken but I find condi more annoying so that's what I'm addressing here.

    i don't see how having a chance to fight back and clean everything is annoying, annoying to me is not having a chance to fight back

    That's just my point, you don't really have anymore of a chance to fight back than with those power builds. Instead of being "Bang" -dead from a rifle warrior one shooting you; you get covered, cleanse, get covered, cleanse, get covered "you are out of cleanses" and end up hobbling around in slow motion while your face melts in <2 seconds. It's my opinion anyways, I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other.

    the problem isn't condi, the problem are some classes that can apply 5 stacks of burn + 10 types of condi in one hit, now if you get 10 stacks of burn plus 10 types of condi in alot of hits then not is wrong with that, because you received alot of hits to stack it.
    now if you have 20 stacks of confusion or torment on you it's your fault because mesmers need alot of hits to stack like that.
    they nerfed thiefs on this patch because of one hit and 10 stacks of poison what is a good thing, now they need to nerf firebrand and fireweaver but they need to prior power users since they are way more overpowered

  • Kondor.2904Kondor.2904 Member ✭✭✭

    I will be okay with condi damage becoming subpar and real DoT if you give every class an equally viable power alternative.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mirage clones need a nerf on their stacking capabilities when using Infinite Horizon.

    You want to dodge the biggest offenders, and cleanse only to nullify the biggest bursts or when you trip up - this is what people forget, you can dodge against non-power specs aswell and they will land nothing.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

    They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold. Same goes for power Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

    I think Zdragon hit the nail on the head, and that is fixing the condi applications of these offenders rather than mass nerfs, and making so you aren't necessarily 100% unable to do anything about it helpless. Like if a class dazes and stuns you and puts 15 burns on you and instantly melts you, to me thats not good, perhaps without those 15 burns it would be ok like 3-4 burns at once but not 15.

    I disagree, If a power spec can stun me, and down me before stun ends, then there is NO reason for condi spec to be unable to apply enough condi to down somebody.
    3-4 burs would deal 6-10k dmg, this is the range of 1 highrolled power hit.
    Lets have theoretical scenarion.
    1 Warrior bullscharges into you, you cant remove CC. He follows up with Arcing and hundred blades -> how much damage should this reasonably do ?
    2 Cmirage hits you with magic bullet, you cant remove CC. He follows up with p4 into scepter 3 and shatters -> how much worth of condi should that do?

    Because RN warrior will hit 5k BC -> 6k arcing, and 5k+ blades.
    Cmirage would land 200 dmg p5, 2k p4, 2k scept 3, and leave you with 8k bleed and confusion.

    I think it depends.

    I have seen some really cool fights regarding thieves dancing around evading and trying to time their hits to not be killed as they have to in order to get close enough to deal damage, you have to be skillful and mindful of your surroundings and such and that's good I think.

    What I think most people have a problem and me included, is when out of nowhere you are invisible and stun and one-hit kills people or have a long-ranged attack that cannot be detected with tons of cc attached that are considered unfair and unfun to deal with, and massive damage. There are some classes you get killed you might think oh well I probably could have done better, or for sure I could have been better.

    I get the feeling you are on the defensive because a lot of these pertain to mesmers, but some also to thief admittedly and etc, etc.

    I think we could arguably give better tells limit cheap invis stun one-hit KO farming potentials with massive amounts of condi that murders you with 20 torments 20 confusions and just pukes out every cc imaginable in 1 ability.

    I personally would like to see for instance if they limit these at least in pvp if we can go without having caps because i fear that these caps things others have asked for will nerf condi too much, some of this could devastatingly crush necro as boon corrupts have condis. scourge deserves a little of what it got but core does not in my opinion as i don't think it's as overpowered in boon corrupt or condi.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    To be honest that was just a quick idea but probably not the best one, but i see what you mean the issue is more player A melting player B quicker than power build Player C can nuke Player B when anet said conditions are explicitly not suppose to work that way.

    I feel you're purposefully being obtuse here since this is not what I meant at all and you've somehow changed this it fit your agenda. What I actually meant, which I felt was pretty clear, was that if player A put 10 stacks of something on player B then player C's attacks do nothing, completely preventing player interaction.

    I mentioned fire weaver as an example but you can also look at poison thief or staff mirage before the nerfs if you like, heck even firebrand. Weaver is probably one of my least concerning elites when it comes to looking at the annoyance of conditions.

    This is the point I am making right here. You attempt to say condi is OP and list the current overtuned builds as an example as to why this is the case.

    As far as condi engi, warrior, ranger and rev (which they all do have builds some which solid believe it or not) are not complained about because they dont instantly melt you after landing afew taps and are not as safe while applying their conditions or their applications have very blunt down times in which if you evade or clense burst you have ample time combat them.
    There are reasons why those builds are not complained about because they are seen as more balanced properly than some of the other major offenders (most of which are just too safe for the damage they deal)

    The reason those builds are not complained about is because they are not competitive and are relatively weak, not balanced.

    dont say conditions are weak just because people run cleanses that makes no sense.

    Everyone runs a generous amount of cleanse because they dont want to be instantly melted if they happen to take a few hits but those few hits applied 10 burn or some how you ended up with 22 confusion 15 torment etc.

    Again not what i am saying..not only is the another case in point as a direct reference to mirage and fire weaver being an issue and not conditions overall, it leads to the point I stated which as much as you want to dismiss it still holds true. Cleanse is so high that unless your build has a lot of condition coverage/ variety or high application you will be pretty much irrelevant. This is why you dont see any besides the 3~4 that are casuing all condi to be OP apparently.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think sigmoid is right about a few classes being predominantly the problem.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    I think people need to wake up and realize that there is 8x more power builds then condi builds and soon oh so very soon there is going to be rev spam whos only counter is condi, too bad condi no longer exists whoopsyyy

  • Condi is/was a big deal for many people because the amaunt of skills that did conditions and the condition rate of the skills is high, But in the year 2019 there are just more Condi cleanse than enaugh and we have far more than that, dodges, skills with dodges, skills with blocks, wasd (imagine you can move your character out of aoe condis).

    In case of burn, burn was since always the hardest condition and when I remember back to vanilla to all this burn guards, they did mostly the same than the weavers now days, it ticks hard but you know its coming and you can prepare.

    Of course power is strong too, but you don't need to kite and do much else to denie the dmg that comes.

    Condi is a bit of a mess state, in my opinion it's easy to deal with condis, but on lower ranks most guys does not know how to handle and say it is op.

    I am not that good player but I can for sure say condi wars is since a long time over and some of them are annoying but not really op or gamebreaking.

  • Despond.2174Despond.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    It's no issue for higher skill play, and that's where you balance so you have everyone reaching the same ceiling. Some builds stack a bit too quickly I agree but there's already a crazy amount of passive and manual cleanse. If you made that many changes you would have to redo nearly every talents/build, then there would be a complaint about something else. I don't think it's a big issue at all, maybe for people who need to get more experience and are running sub optimal set-ups.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    The main issue with conditions is that you get multiple stacked on you every time and the way they are applied. Most come from large pulsing AOE or range attacks or the passive ones where you dodge but next attack applies them anyway. By themselves each and every condition is ok the issue is when they get combined for example confusion and torment, you can't cast you can't move, they come in as both cc and a damage source and here soft cc is way more dangerous than hard cc, a cripple lasts way longer and once its applied can be reapplied.
    Also tells on condition attacks are terrible like all range tells in the game, no one is able to tell the difference between shaking your little hand little bit to the left or little bit to the right. If the telegraphs felt weighty and were actual telegraphs it would be one idea less annoying to deal with conditions.

  • Fearless.3569Fearless.3569 Member ✭✭✭

    There is a easy solution to condition damage. Split their damage into Condition Damage/Ferocity/Precision like Power Damage is. Boom now Condition Damage builds also have to choose between tanky or bursty. I mean if Condition specs are going to have the same benifits to Power specs. Than they need to also incur the same weakness.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Despond.2174 said:
    It's no issue for higher skill play, and that's where you balance

    Why would you balance around a minority of outliers that will manage in any situation anyway?
    It makes significantly more sense to balance around the median where most players are, so it's becomes for fair for as much people as possible.

  • I actually think there's too much cleanse...

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the necro skills that apply 8s chill are 40s cooldown, or superslow(GS #1 sequence). chill to necro is almost a source of other passive triggers(apply weakness and gain life force) than a CC skill.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Despond.2174 said:
    It's no issue for higher skill play, and that's where you balance

    Why would you balance around a minority of outliers that will manage in any situation anyway?
    It makes significantly more sense to balance around the median where most players are, so it's becomes for fair for as much people as possible.

    If you balance a game not for the best players, more for the mijority of the players, you will get a lot more of abuse from high tier player.

    And you can be say for sure that the game is balanced. Players under the top tier player can't say it's imbalanced or not, because if they are not using the ways that are open for them, is it not the balance fault.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2019

    It doesn't make sense why power is always mentioned in condi complaints. If you feel like power damage is high, then create a thread about it! Power creep is real. Both types can be busted at the same time!

    On other games, dots are over time. Not burst oriented. CC is controlled by a bar. A character can't be stun locked without consequence and creating CC immunity for the next few seconds. It prevents enemies from just spamming kitten. Just play that game? No, the point is, those mechanics were solely created to encourage better game play. It doesn't have to be game specific.

    Firebrand /Fire Weaver/ Scourge/ Condi thief / Mirage all had their hay-day of condi burst. Some nerfed already. Some still needing nerfs. I've even seen burst condi Rangers and Engi's. Condi isn't just a problem for a certain class. If one class gets nerfed, another cancer is just gonna pop up somewhere else. The sole problem is condi, how it deals damage, how it's applied, and how you stat for it

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do people know why condition builds are strong?

    Because they counter the meta glassy power builds that skip cleansing in favor of burst.

    That usually tells you everything you need to know.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Do people know why condition builds are strong?

    Because they counter the meta glassy power builds that skip cleansing in favor of burst.

    That usually tells you everything you need to know.

    If you build heavy into cleanse then you're damage isn't enough to kill the tanky condi builds. Those tanky condi builds don't have to sacrifice their damage for survivability. They can both be offensive and defensive at the same time where with power you have to open yourself up to counter pressure in order to pressure someone.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    what I would do

    is make all conditions take much longer to do their damage, and shift cleanses into duration reductions

    another problem with condi vs cleanse is that it's very all or nothing. too much cleanse and people take no damage at all. not enough cleanse and they just get destroyed. This would help in that regard.

  • @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

    They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold. Same goes for power Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

    If they're trying to reduce the global power level as they've said in recent discussions, buffs should really be happening minimally if at all. Regarding condi, they just need to bring everything in line with a DOT paradigm. That means no more being insta-melted by FB and Weaver bursts (condi thief has already been addressed). For true DOT condi builds to be viable though, cleanse will definitely need reduction as well, as it is currently balanced towards existing condi levels.

  • @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Do people know why condition builds are strong?

    Because they counter the meta glassy power builds that skip cleansing in favor of burst.

    That usually tells you everything you need to know.

    If you build heavy into cleanse then you're damage isn't enough to kill the tanky condi builds. Those tanky condi builds don't have to sacrifice their damage for survivability. They can both be offensive and defensive at the same time where with power you have to open yourself up to counter pressure in order to pressure someone.

    I wish this was true.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2019

    @reikken.4961 said:
    what I would do

    is make all conditions take much longer to do their damage, and shift cleanses into duration reductions

    another problem with condi vs cleanse is that it's very all or nothing. too much cleanse and people take no damage at all. not enough cleanse and they just get destroyed. This would help in that regard.

    This. +1

    There's too many absolutes in this game, and its not just cleanses, its blocks, evades, Blinds, etc. Pretty much anything that you use in the game is not only guaranteed (save for a few mechanics like Unblockable), but has an effect of 100%. and that's where it goes wrong.

    For balance to ever be achieved, everything has to be relative, not absolute.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • But Why are 100% mechanics bad?