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  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2019

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    But Why are 100% mechanics bad?

    When you chain them together (damage avoidance, CC, etc.) it leads to a player being very hard to kill. This seems good in theory, except then you need damage creep so that when someone does land a hit, they hit like a truck, otherwise no one would ever die.

    That's part of why conditions are the way they are, because of cleanses being plentiful and absolute.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 17k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Sea of Sorrows Silver Assaulter [SUKI]
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Do people know why condition builds are strong?

    Because they counter the meta glassy power builds that skip cleansing in favor of burst.

    That usually tells you everything you need to know.

    If you build heavy into cleanse then you're damage isn't enough to kill the tanky condi builds. Those tanky condi builds don't have to sacrifice their damage for survivability. They can both be offensive and defensive at the same time where with power you have to open yourself up to counter pressure in order to pressure someone.

    That really depends though doesn't it?

    For instance, necromancers have a lot of conditional defenses and core necro can go condi but with low support sustain they are fairly easy to burst down as they can't get away very easily.

    That might very well be true about guardians though i don't know for sure so i won't say it is.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    cleanses being plentiful and absolute

    And then, one or two seconds after the cleanse, the conditions are back on you, effectively negating the point of having used the cleanse.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    cleanses being plentiful and absolute

    And then, one or two seconds after the cleanse, the conditions are back on you, effectively negating the point of having used the cleanse.

    If you have conditions on you then you got hit with skills that apply those conditions.

    If you cleansed those conditions you didn’t take X damage from those conditions.

    If you got loaded up with conditions again you got hit by even more skills that apply conditions, making you take Y damage.

    If you cleanse you get hit with Y damage. If you don’t cleanse you get hit with X+Y damage.

    Your reward for cleansing at the correct moment is to significantly cut the damage you take. Cleanse is not meant to make you immune to condi damage any more than armor rating is meant to make you immune to power damage.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    cleanses being plentiful and absolute

    And then, one or two seconds after the cleanse, the conditions are back on you, effectively negating the point of having used the cleanse.

    If you have conditions on you then you got hit with skills that apply those conditions.

    If you cleansed those conditions you didn’t take X damage from those conditions.

    If you got loaded up with conditions again you got hit by even more skills that apply conditions, making you take Y damage.

    If you cleanse you get hit with Y damage. If you don’t cleanse you get hit with X+Y damage.

    Your reward for cleansing at the correct moment is to significantly cut the damage you take. Cleanse is not meant to make you immune to condi damage any more than armor rating is meant to make you immune to power damage.

    Some times there is no amount of cleanse that will help you and a lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it. If I'm fighting a power warrior and power ranger I can read their movements and know when to dodge/block. If I'm fighting a condi mirage and condi firebrand I have to "role the dice" and hope I cleanse the the right condi spam I'm getting slathered with and that there are not a multitude of condi laying over the actual damaging ones. I might have to burn two cleanse just to get to the condi I need to remove.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2019

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    How much damage per second is too much?

    The issue is that cleanse means some condi damage will inevitably have to occur quickly enough to prompt a cleanse. Also, the damage won’t start at XYZ per second and it won’t end at XYZ because the person may front load or backload conditions to overwhelm the opponent’s cleanses.

    I’d agree strongly that if a build can spike multiple times (both before and after a cleanse) then the problem is that build specifically and not condi more generally.

    Take this example.

    I can apply enough condi to max out at around 4k condi damage per second. That assumes no cleanse. With cleanse in the picture my condi damage over the first 10 seconds of a fight can vary widely from less than 1k per second all the way up to 3k per second (lower than the strongest tick because the damage starts out lower and takes up to 4-5 seconds to peak before falling off).

    Now, assuming I hold my maximum application skills for my opponent to blow their cleanses on my non-burst condition application, I might be able to get up to a 4k spike that lasts 3 seconds (roughly 12k damage). I don’t think that level of damage is unfair against a target that has already used condi specific mitigation (cleanse) and fails to use non-specific mitigation (evade, block, immunity/resistance, stealth, heal).

    Most of my fights last longer than 10 seconds. Often they last for 30+ seconds or even over a minute of trading blows and trying to wear them down. If all condi was OP my fights would all end in 5 seconds with no chance for them to fight back.

    Mesmer reapplies conditions so often because their clones apply conditions for full damage constantly. A good Mesmer will be hard to catch and constantly putting out clones. If constant strong condi application is your issue the problem is class specific imo.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    How much damage per second is too much?

    The issue is that cleanse means some condi damage will inevitably have to occur quickly enough to prompt a cleanse. Also, the damage won’t start at XYZ per second and it won’t end at XYZ because the person may front load or backload conditions to overwhelm the opponent’s cleanses.

    I’d agree strongly that if a build can spike multiple times (both before and after a cleanse) then the problem is that build specifically and not condi more generally.

    Take this example.

    I can apply enough condi to max out at around 4k condi damage per second. That assumes no cleanse. With cleanse in the picture my condi damage over the first 10 seconds of a fight can vary widely from less than 1k per second all the way up to 3k per second (lower than the strongest tick because the damage starts out lower and takes up to 4-5 seconds to peak before falling off).

    Now, assuming I hold my maximum application skills for my opponent to blow their cleanses on my non-burst condition application, I might be able to get up to a 4k spike that lasts 3 seconds (roughly 12k damage). I don’t think that level of damage is unfair against a target that has already used condi specific mitigation (cleanse) and fails to use non-specific mitigation (evade, block, immunity/resistance, stealth, heal).

    Most of my fights last longer than 10 seconds. Often they last for 30+ seconds or even over a minute of trading blows and trying to wear them down. If all condi was OP my fights would all end in 5 seconds with no chance for them to fight back.

    Mesmer reapplies conditions so often because their clones apply conditions for full damage constantly. A good Mesmer will be hard to catch and constantly putting out clones. If constant strong condi application is your issue the problem is class specific imo.

    They should also lower the amount of cleanses in proportion so the condi sticks longer just doesn't tick as hard. What ever you play seems to have pretty balanced condi damage but on my fire weaver I can 1-2 tick someone easy with burns. I've stacked 15 burns in under a second in ideal circumstances. It's not like I'm arguing against this to try to save my own profession or because what I play is particularly weak to condi, I'm arguing to nerf what I actually play. If you're going to kill someone with purely condi it should take a relatively long time compared to power since your damage ramps up. That said if two players are pretty good and equally skilled they can drag a fight out for 5 minutes even if both their builds are unbalanced and playing power.

    My second issue is how condi players can front load damage at all while being tanky in comparison to power which usually has to build fairly glassy to hit big numbers. Even if it's only for a few seconds. I would consider even 4k ticks to be pretty heavy since there are professions out there who only have between 11k-20k health. You're ticking them for between 1/4 to near 1/2 of their health per tick. Not to mention after you apply the condi you can kite while you're doing damage to your opponent utilizing both offense and defense at the same time. Don't underestimate how strong of a tool kiting is. With that benefit alone it should go to show why condi should be a mediocre, supplementary damage source and never be able to be used as a primary damage tool. The idea with using condi ideally to me would be to apply steady mediocre pressure between mediocre bursts of power while having a fairly tanky build. A more 'safe and slow' way to play.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2019

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    How much damage per second is too much?

    The issue is that cleanse means some condi damage will inevitably have to occur quickly enough to prompt a cleanse. Also, the damage won’t start at XYZ per second and it won’t end at XYZ because the person may front load or backload conditions to overwhelm the opponent’s cleanses.

    I’d agree strongly that if a build can spike multiple times (both before and after a cleanse) then the problem is that build specifically and not condi more generally.

    Take this example.

    I can apply enough condi to max out at around 4k condi damage per second. That assumes no cleanse. With cleanse in the picture my condi damage over the first 10 seconds of a fight can vary widely from less than 1k per second all the way up to 3k per second (lower than the strongest tick because the damage starts out lower and takes up to 4-5 seconds to peak before falling off).

    Now, assuming I hold my maximum application skills for my opponent to blow their cleanses on my non-burst condition application, I might be able to get up to a 4k spike that lasts 3 seconds (roughly 12k damage). I don’t think that level of damage is unfair against a target that has already used condi specific mitigation (cleanse) and fails to use non-specific mitigation (evade, block, immunity/resistance, stealth, heal).

    Most of my fights last longer than 10 seconds. Often they last for 30+ seconds or even over a minute of trading blows and trying to wear them down. If all condi was OP my fights would all end in 5 seconds with no chance for them to fight back.

    Mesmer reapplies conditions so often because their clones apply conditions for full damage constantly. A good Mesmer will be hard to catch and constantly putting out clones. If constant strong condi application is your issue the problem is class specific imo.

    They should also lower the amount of cleanses in proportion so the condi sticks longer just doesn't tick as hard. What ever you play seems to have pretty balanced condi damage but on my fire weaver I can 1-2 tick someone easy with burns. I've stacked 15 burns in under a second in ideal circumstances. It's not like I'm arguing against this to try to save my own profession or because what I play is particularly weak to condi, I'm arguing to nerf what I actually play. If you're going to kill someone with purely condi it should take a relatively long time compared to power since your damage ramps up. That said if two players are pretty good and equally skilled they can drag a fight out for 5 minutes even if both their builds are unbalanced and playing power.

    My second issue is how condi players can front load damage at all while being tanky in comparison to power which usually has to build fairly glassy to hit big numbers. Even if it's only for a few seconds. I would consider even 4k ticks to be pretty heavy since there are professions out there who only have between 11k-20k health. You're ticking them for between 1/4 to near 1/2 of their health per tick. Not to mention after you apply the condi you can kite while you're doing damage to your opponent utilizing both offense and defense at the same time. Don't underestimate how strong of a tool kiting is. With that benefit alone it should go to show why condi should be a mediocre, supplementary damage source and never be able to be used as a primary damage tool. The idea with using condi ideally to me would be to apply steady mediocre pressure between mediocre bursts of power while having a fairly tanky build. A more 'safe and slow' way to play.

    DoT skills very much have a place in the game, just like a ton of other video games, spvp included.

    The root issues of the condition system is the overall design, and none of your ideas or feedback would make the condi system any better in gw2. In fact, you'd want to change the game so everyone basically runs a direct/power damage build, because that's what you'd want to be most effective, without addressing the real problems at all. And that's not fixing issues, it's changing to another set of issues.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    How much damage per second is too much?

    The issue is that cleanse means some condi damage will inevitably have to occur quickly enough to prompt a cleanse. Also, the damage won’t start at XYZ per second and it won’t end at XYZ because the person may front load or backload conditions to overwhelm the opponent’s cleanses.

    I’d agree strongly that if a build can spike multiple times (both before and after a cleanse) then the problem is that build specifically and not condi more generally.

    Take this example.

    I can apply enough condi to max out at around 4k condi damage per second. That assumes no cleanse. With cleanse in the picture my condi damage over the first 10 seconds of a fight can vary widely from less than 1k per second all the way up to 3k per second (lower than the strongest tick because the damage starts out lower and takes up to 4-5 seconds to peak before falling off).

    Now, assuming I hold my maximum application skills for my opponent to blow their cleanses on my non-burst condition application, I might be able to get up to a 4k spike that lasts 3 seconds (roughly 12k damage). I don’t think that level of damage is unfair against a target that has already used condi specific mitigation (cleanse) and fails to use non-specific mitigation (evade, block, immunity/resistance, stealth, heal).

    Most of my fights last longer than 10 seconds. Often they last for 30+ seconds or even over a minute of trading blows and trying to wear them down. If all condi was OP my fights would all end in 5 seconds with no chance for them to fight back.

    Mesmer reapplies conditions so often because their clones apply conditions for full damage constantly. A good Mesmer will be hard to catch and constantly putting out clones. If constant strong condi application is your issue the problem is class specific imo.

    They should also lower the amount of cleanses in proportion so the condi sticks longer just doesn't tick as hard. What ever you play seems to have pretty balanced condi damage but on my fire weaver I can 1-2 tick someone easy with burns. I've stacked 15 burns in under a second in ideal circumstances. It's not like I'm arguing against this to try to save my own profession or because what I play is particularly weak to condi, I'm arguing to nerf what I actually play. If you're going to kill someone with purely condi it should take a relatively long time compared to power since your damage ramps up. That said if two players are pretty good and equally skilled they can drag a fight out for 5 minutes even if both their builds are unbalanced and playing power.

    My second issue is how condi players can front load damage at all while being tanky in comparison to power which usually has to build fairly glassy to hit big numbers. Even if it's only for a few seconds. I would consider even 4k ticks to be pretty heavy since there are professions out there who only have between 11k-20k health. You're ticking them for between 1/4 to near 1/2 of their health per tick. Not to mention after you apply the condi you can kite while you're doing damage to your opponent utilizing both offense and defense at the same time. Don't underestimate how strong of a tool kiting is. With that benefit alone it should go to show why condi should be a mediocre, supplementary damage source and never be able to be used as a primary damage tool. The idea with using condi ideally to me would be to apply steady mediocre pressure between mediocre bursts of power while having a fairly tanky build. A more 'safe and slow' way to play.

    DoT skills very much have a place in the game, just like a ton of other video games, spvp included.

    The root issues of the condition system is the overall design, and none of your ideas or feedback would make the condi system any better in gw2. In fact, you'd want to change the game so everyone basically runs a direct/power damage build, because that's what you'd want to be most effective, without addressing the real problems at all. And that's not fixing issues, it's changing to another set of issues.

    I never claimed to have all the answers or that my ideas were the best. I'm able to identify something is wrong though and attempt to give my opinion on how to fix it. If you're going to suggest my ideas wont fix anything could you give some of your own? I'm always down for better suggestions

    EDIT:
    I'm not aware of many good PvP games that have such a heavy focus around DoT in their PvP setting (maybe WoW? I don't play it.) They will have DoT skills, or DoT characters, but not a full chunk of game mechanic focused around DoT in PvP. Could you give some examples so I could maybe do some comparisons?

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    How much damage per second is too much?

    The issue is that cleanse means some condi damage will inevitably have to occur quickly enough to prompt a cleanse. Also, the damage won’t start at XYZ per second and it won’t end at XYZ because the person may front load or backload conditions to overwhelm the opponent’s cleanses.

    I’d agree strongly that if a build can spike multiple times (both before and after a cleanse) then the problem is that build specifically and not condi more generally.

    Take this example.

    I can apply enough condi to max out at around 4k condi damage per second. That assumes no cleanse. With cleanse in the picture my condi damage over the first 10 seconds of a fight can vary widely from less than 1k per second all the way up to 3k per second (lower than the strongest tick because the damage starts out lower and takes up to 4-5 seconds to peak before falling off).

    Now, assuming I hold my maximum application skills for my opponent to blow their cleanses on my non-burst condition application, I might be able to get up to a 4k spike that lasts 3 seconds (roughly 12k damage). I don’t think that level of damage is unfair against a target that has already used condi specific mitigation (cleanse) and fails to use non-specific mitigation (evade, block, immunity/resistance, stealth, heal).

    Most of my fights last longer than 10 seconds. Often they last for 30+ seconds or even over a minute of trading blows and trying to wear them down. If all condi was OP my fights would all end in 5 seconds with no chance for them to fight back.

    Mesmer reapplies conditions so often because their clones apply conditions for full damage constantly. A good Mesmer will be hard to catch and constantly putting out clones. If constant strong condi application is your issue the problem is class specific imo.

    They should also lower the amount of cleanses in proportion so the condi sticks longer just doesn't tick as hard. What ever you play seems to have pretty balanced condi damage but on my fire weaver I can 1-2 tick someone easy with burns. I've stacked 15 burns in under a second in ideal circumstances. It's not like I'm arguing against this to try to save my own profession or because what I play is particularly weak to condi, I'm arguing to nerf what I actually play. If you're going to kill someone with purely condi it should take a relatively long time compared to power since your damage ramps up. That said if two players are pretty good and equally skilled they can drag a fight out for 5 minutes even if both their builds are unbalanced and playing power.

    My second issue is how condi players can front load damage at all while being tanky in comparison to power which usually has to build fairly glassy to hit big numbers. Even if it's only for a few seconds. I would consider even 4k ticks to be pretty heavy since there are professions out there who only have between 11k-20k health. You're ticking them for between 1/4 to near 1/2 of their health per tick. Not to mention after you apply the condi you can kite while you're doing damage to your opponent utilizing both offense and defense at the same time. Don't underestimate how strong of a tool kiting is. With that benefit alone it should go to show why condi should be a mediocre, supplementary damage source and never be able to be used as a primary damage tool. The idea with using condi ideally to me would be to apply steady mediocre pressure between mediocre bursts of power while having a fairly tanky build. A more 'safe and slow' way to play.

    First, I think you may be mistaken about condi builds being more tank than power builds. In PvE or WvW you may have an argument about stats that make them more survivable with comparable damage output. Then again, I’ve seen cleanse negate pure condi builds to the point that hybrid damage is the only way to stay competitive (and with those trade offs for sustain versus damage). In PvP, you don’t get sustain with condi any more than you get sustain with power. Holo and Soul Beast and a few other power builds have plenty of sustain and don’t run condi. There is Weaver or FB, which both can do condi with some sustain but...the sustain has nothing to do with condi—those builds are just good at self sustain when played well. Mirage is able to stay alive with evade, stealth and detargeting, again not because it does condi damage.

    Second, I’m not sure I agree that front loading damage is a major issue. Cleanse is MORE effective when you get loaded up because more of the overall potential damage can be negated. Also, front loading means burning a lot of utilities and sacrificing multiple cool downs. By the time you should recover yourself they will also have recovered.

    I do think being able to repeatedly burst can be an issue Or being able to achieve 10k ticks of condi in an instant application (but that is again a build issue and I don’t think we disagree on the idea that builds that are over performing should be nerfed. In this case condi builds that overperform the baseline should be nerfed.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    How much damage per second is too much?

    The issue is that cleanse means some condi damage will inevitably have to occur quickly enough to prompt a cleanse. Also, the damage won’t start at XYZ per second and it won’t end at XYZ because the person may front load or backload conditions to overwhelm the opponent’s cleanses.

    I’d agree strongly that if a build can spike multiple times (both before and after a cleanse) then the problem is that build specifically and not condi more generally.

    Take this example.

    I can apply enough condi to max out at around 4k condi damage per second. That assumes no cleanse. With cleanse in the picture my condi damage over the first 10 seconds of a fight can vary widely from less than 1k per second all the way up to 3k per second (lower than the strongest tick because the damage starts out lower and takes up to 4-5 seconds to peak before falling off).

    Now, assuming I hold my maximum application skills for my opponent to blow their cleanses on my non-burst condition application, I might be able to get up to a 4k spike that lasts 3 seconds (roughly 12k damage). I don’t think that level of damage is unfair against a target that has already used condi specific mitigation (cleanse) and fails to use non-specific mitigation (evade, block, immunity/resistance, stealth, heal).

    Most of my fights last longer than 10 seconds. Often they last for 30+ seconds or even over a minute of trading blows and trying to wear them down. If all condi was OP my fights would all end in 5 seconds with no chance for them to fight back.

    Mesmer reapplies conditions so often because their clones apply conditions for full damage constantly. A good Mesmer will be hard to catch and constantly putting out clones. If constant strong condi application is your issue the problem is class specific imo.

    They should also lower the amount of cleanses in proportion so the condi sticks longer just doesn't tick as hard. What ever you play seems to have pretty balanced condi damage but on my fire weaver I can 1-2 tick someone easy with burns. I've stacked 15 burns in under a second in ideal circumstances. It's not like I'm arguing against this to try to save my own profession or because what I play is particularly weak to condi, I'm arguing to nerf what I actually play. If you're going to kill someone with purely condi it should take a relatively long time compared to power since your damage ramps up. That said if two players are pretty good and equally skilled they can drag a fight out for 5 minutes even if both their builds are unbalanced and playing power.

    My second issue is how condi players can front load damage at all while being tanky in comparison to power which usually has to build fairly glassy to hit big numbers. Even if it's only for a few seconds. I would consider even 4k ticks to be pretty heavy since there are professions out there who only have between 11k-20k health. You're ticking them for between 1/4 to near 1/2 of their health per tick. Not to mention after you apply the condi you can kite while you're doing damage to your opponent utilizing both offense and defense at the same time. Don't underestimate how strong of a tool kiting is. With that benefit alone it should go to show why condi should be a mediocre, supplementary damage source and never be able to be used as a primary damage tool. The idea with using condi ideally to me would be to apply steady mediocre pressure between mediocre bursts of power while having a fairly tanky build. A more 'safe and slow' way to play.

    First, I think you may be mistaken about condi builds being more tank than power builds. In PvE or WvW you may have an argument about stats that make them more survivable with comparable damage output. Then again, I’ve seen cleanse negate pure condi builds to the point that hybrid damage is the only way to stay competitive (and with those trade offs for sustain versus damage). In PvP, you don’t get sustain with condi any more than you get sustain with power. Holo and Soul Beast and a few other power builds have plenty of sustain and don’t run condi. There is Weaver or FB, which both can do condi with some sustain but...the sustain has nothing to do with condi—those builds are just good at self sustain when played well. Mirage is able to stay alive with evade, stealth and detargeting, again not because it does condi damage.

    Second, I’m not sure I agree that front loading damage is a major issue. Cleanse is MORE effective when you get loaded up because more of the overall potential damage can be negated. Also, front loading means burning a lot of utilities and sacrificing multiple cool downs. By the time you should recover yourself they will also have recovered.

    I do think being able to repeatedly burst can be an issue Or being able to achieve 10k ticks of condi in an instant application (but that is again a build issue and I don’t think we disagree on the idea that builds that are over performing should be nerfed. In this case condi builds that overperform the baseline should be nerfed.

    You may be right with just nerfing professions and I'm aware I'm bias against condi. I just really don't enjoy fighting OP condi builds on any professions. I would take an OP power build over an OP condi build any day and there seems like there is always some broken condi build running around.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    How much damage per second is too much?

    The issue is that cleanse means some condi damage will inevitably have to occur quickly enough to prompt a cleanse. Also, the damage won’t start at XYZ per second and it won’t end at XYZ because the person may front load or backload conditions to overwhelm the opponent’s cleanses.

    I’d agree strongly that if a build can spike multiple times (both before and after a cleanse) then the problem is that build specifically and not condi more generally.

    Take this example.

    I can apply enough condi to max out at around 4k condi damage per second. That assumes no cleanse. With cleanse in the picture my condi damage over the first 10 seconds of a fight can vary widely from less than 1k per second all the way up to 3k per second (lower than the strongest tick because the damage starts out lower and takes up to 4-5 seconds to peak before falling off).

    Now, assuming I hold my maximum application skills for my opponent to blow their cleanses on my non-burst condition application, I might be able to get up to a 4k spike that lasts 3 seconds (roughly 12k damage). I don’t think that level of damage is unfair against a target that has already used condi specific mitigation (cleanse) and fails to use non-specific mitigation (evade, block, immunity/resistance, stealth, heal).

    Most of my fights last longer than 10 seconds. Often they last for 30+ seconds or even over a minute of trading blows and trying to wear them down. If all condi was OP my fights would all end in 5 seconds with no chance for them to fight back.

    Mesmer reapplies conditions so often because their clones apply conditions for full damage constantly. A good Mesmer will be hard to catch and constantly putting out clones. If constant strong condi application is your issue the problem is class specific imo.

    They should also lower the amount of cleanses in proportion so the condi sticks longer just doesn't tick as hard. What ever you play seems to have pretty balanced condi damage but on my fire weaver I can 1-2 tick someone easy with burns. I've stacked 15 burns in under a second in ideal circumstances. It's not like I'm arguing against this to try to save my own profession or because what I play is particularly weak to condi, I'm arguing to nerf what I actually play. If you're going to kill someone with purely condi it should take a relatively long time compared to power since your damage ramps up. That said if two players are pretty good and equally skilled they can drag a fight out for 5 minutes even if both their builds are unbalanced and playing power.

    My second issue is how condi players can front load damage at all while being tanky in comparison to power which usually has to build fairly glassy to hit big numbers. Even if it's only for a few seconds. I would consider even 4k ticks to be pretty heavy since there are professions out there who only have between 11k-20k health. You're ticking them for between 1/4 to near 1/2 of their health per tick. Not to mention after you apply the condi you can kite while you're doing damage to your opponent utilizing both offense and defense at the same time. Don't underestimate how strong of a tool kiting is. With that benefit alone it should go to show why condi should be a mediocre, supplementary damage source and never be able to be used as a primary damage tool. The idea with using condi ideally to me would be to apply steady mediocre pressure between mediocre bursts of power while having a fairly tanky build. A more 'safe and slow' way to play.

    First, I think you may be mistaken about condi builds being more tank than power builds. In PvE or WvW you may have an argument about stats that make them more survivable with comparable damage output. Then again, I’ve seen cleanse negate pure condi builds to the point that hybrid damage is the only way to stay competitive (and with those trade offs for sustain versus damage). In PvP, you don’t get sustain with condi any more than you get sustain with power. Holo and Soul Beast and a few other power builds have plenty of sustain and don’t run condi. There is Weaver or FB, which both can do condi with some sustain but...the sustain has nothing to do with condi—those builds are just good at self sustain when played well. Mirage is able to stay alive with evade, stealth and detargeting, again not because it does condi damage.

    Second, I’m not sure I agree that front loading damage is a major issue. Cleanse is MORE effective when you get loaded up because more of the overall potential damage can be negated. Also, front loading means burning a lot of utilities and sacrificing multiple cool downs. By the time you should recover yourself they will also have recovered.

    I do think being able to repeatedly burst can be an issue Or being able to achieve 10k ticks of condi in an instant application (but that is again a build issue and I don’t think we disagree on the idea that builds that are over performing should be nerfed. In this case condi builds that overperform the baseline should be nerfed.

    You may be right with just nerfing professions and I'm aware I'm bias against condi. I just really don't enjoy fighting OP condi builds on any professions. I would take an OP power build over an OP condi build any day and there seems like there is always some broken condi build running around.

    Hey, if you want to take all the condi away and replace it with direct damage and hard CC, well uh .. sure? I don't think you'd like the result though.

    I will use condi engi as an example:

    • Instead of being able to potentially cleanse a melee range blowtorch, you'd just get hit for a 15k+ burst in the face.
    • Instead of being immobilized/slowed by Glue Shot, you'd be stunned or knocked down.
    • Instead of being blinded by Static Shot, you'd be dazed.
    • Instead of being hit with autoattacks that could potentially deal ~2k damage over 15s if uncleansed, you'd just be hit for 1.5k direct.

    I'd gladly take that trade.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    lot of condi is AoE so it's not like power which you can easily see an animation and dodge/block it

    This just isn't true. Both damage types have single target moves, both have AOEs. Neither is predominately one or the other.

    You also again try to pin the "problems" of conditions on its strongest meta builds.

    Its interesting to see the logic in practice, "If a condi build is OP all condi is, if a power build is OP that build is the issue",w ith this thread where conditions are OP because condi mirage is a thing, its been mentioned so many times in this thread that condi is OP and mirage is used as an example, then another thread how core mesmer is OP because of one exact build.

    I also like how scourge isn't part of the list of classes making condi OP anymore by the looks of things. Its almost as if the builds issues causing it to over perform and be complained about were nerfed and that was the problem not conditions themselves.

    How condi works is the issue though that's making these example builds over perform. At no point in time should condi be able to stack in a way to "burst" an opponent, that's not how DoT are meant to work but you can do this on more than one profession/build. Condi should not be able to front load damage at any point, that's powers M-O. They could limit the condi mechanic as a whole in PvP to keep these kinds of builds from being able to do what they do but still allow for people to use them as an effective method to pressure over time.

    How much damage per second is too much?

    The issue is that cleanse means some condi damage will inevitably have to occur quickly enough to prompt a cleanse. Also, the damage won’t start at XYZ per second and it won’t end at XYZ because the person may front load or backload conditions to overwhelm the opponent’s cleanses.

    I’d agree strongly that if a build can spike multiple times (both before and after a cleanse) then the problem is that build specifically and not condi more generally.

    Take this example.

    I can apply enough condi to max out at around 4k condi damage per second. That assumes no cleanse. With cleanse in the picture my condi damage over the first 10 seconds of a fight can vary widely from less than 1k per second all the way up to 3k per second (lower than the strongest tick because the damage starts out lower and takes up to 4-5 seconds to peak before falling off).

    Now, assuming I hold my maximum application skills for my opponent to blow their cleanses on my non-burst condition application, I might be able to get up to a 4k spike that lasts 3 seconds (roughly 12k damage). I don’t think that level of damage is unfair against a target that has already used condi specific mitigation (cleanse) and fails to use non-specific mitigation (evade, block, immunity/resistance, stealth, heal).

    Most of my fights last longer than 10 seconds. Often they last for 30+ seconds or even over a minute of trading blows and trying to wear them down. If all condi was OP my fights would all end in 5 seconds with no chance for them to fight back.

    Mesmer reapplies conditions so often because their clones apply conditions for full damage constantly. A good Mesmer will be hard to catch and constantly putting out clones. If constant strong condi application is your issue the problem is class specific imo.

    They should also lower the amount of cleanses in proportion so the condi sticks longer just doesn't tick as hard. What ever you play seems to have pretty balanced condi damage but on my fire weaver I can 1-2 tick someone easy with burns. I've stacked 15 burns in under a second in ideal circumstances. It's not like I'm arguing against this to try to save my own profession or because what I play is particularly weak to condi, I'm arguing to nerf what I actually play. If you're going to kill someone with purely condi it should take a relatively long time compared to power since your damage ramps up. That said if two players are pretty good and equally skilled they can drag a fight out for 5 minutes even if both their builds are unbalanced and playing power.

    My second issue is how condi players can front load damage at all while being tanky in comparison to power which usually has to build fairly glassy to hit big numbers. Even if it's only for a few seconds. I would consider even 4k ticks to be pretty heavy since there are professions out there who only have between 11k-20k health. You're ticking them for between 1/4 to near 1/2 of their health per tick. Not to mention after you apply the condi you can kite while you're doing damage to your opponent utilizing both offense and defense at the same time. Don't underestimate how strong of a tool kiting is. With that benefit alone it should go to show why condi should be a mediocre, supplementary damage source and never be able to be used as a primary damage tool. The idea with using condi ideally to me would be to apply steady mediocre pressure between mediocre bursts of power while having a fairly tanky build. A more 'safe and slow' way to play.

    First, I think you may be mistaken about condi builds being more tank than power builds. In PvE or WvW you may have an argument about stats that make them more survivable with comparable damage output. Then again, I’ve seen cleanse negate pure condi builds to the point that hybrid damage is the only way to stay competitive (and with those trade offs for sustain versus damage). In PvP, you don’t get sustain with condi any more than you get sustain with power. Holo and Soul Beast and a few other power builds have plenty of sustain and don’t run condi. There is Weaver or FB, which both can do condi with some sustain but...the sustain has nothing to do with condi—those builds are just good at self sustain when played well. Mirage is able to stay alive with evade, stealth and detargeting, again not because it does condi damage.

    Second, I’m not sure I agree that front loading damage is a major issue. Cleanse is MORE effective when you get loaded up because more of the overall potential damage can be negated. Also, front loading means burning a lot of utilities and sacrificing multiple cool downs. By the time you should recover yourself they will also have recovered.

    I do think being able to repeatedly burst can be an issue Or being able to achieve 10k ticks of condi in an instant application (but that is again a build issue and I don’t think we disagree on the idea that builds that are over performing should be nerfed. In this case condi builds that overperform the baseline should be nerfed.

    You may be right with just nerfing professions and I'm aware I'm bias against condi. I just really don't enjoy fighting OP condi builds on any professions. I would take an OP power build over an OP condi build any day and there seems like there is always some broken condi build running around.

    Hey, if you want to take all the condi away and replace it with direct damage and hard CC, well uh .. sure? I don't think you'd like the result though.

    I will use condi engi as an example:

    • Instead of being able to potentially cleanse a melee range blowtorch, you'd just get hit for a 15k+ burst in the face.
    • Instead of being immobilized/slowed by Glue Shot, you'd be stunned or knocked down.
    • Instead of being blinded by Static Shot, you'd be dazed.
    • Instead of being hit with autoattacks that could potentially deal ~2k damage over 15s if uncleansed, you'd just be hit for 1.5k direct.

    I'd gladly take that trade.

    Isn't that just Holo these days though.