Holo Needs Buffs and Nerfs (Formerly: The recent changes to Holo were good but they weren't enough.)

Heya!

Everyone's been hating on me super hard cause of this engi thread and I don't really blame them but I think a lot of people are misinterpreting what I'm trying to get across just because I haven't really listed any buffs along with the nerfs. Which, I definitely could've spent more time being thorough on judging by how many people end up seeing/responding to my stuff.

Anyways, I think engi needs buffs, core engi, scrapper, and holo ALL could do with some fixing up. For tools holo in particular, currently gameplay revolves a lot around setups from rifle into big damage + mobility + sustain from photon forge. In my opinion, this is a relatively forced playstyle since cooldowns on utilities are so long and engi has such a lack of stability outside of corona burst that it's necessary to constantly spam PF while in fights.

I would like to see a grandmaster trait in Holo that makes entering PF a stunbreak, 2 stacks of stability for 3s on a 10 second ICD, and heat passively builds 15% slower. Also, I think giving Elixir U back it's stability duration to 4 seconds (6 seconds with Compounding Chemicals + Rune of Leadership) is perfectly fine as long as the stacks of stability from CB get moved to the initial hit rather than spread out over both pulses. Furthermore, I liked the idea of stab per target hit, but it should cap at 2 targets instead of 5 and grant 2 stacks of stab per hit. This will give Holos a more reliable way of gaining stability as timing the CB will now grant max stacks of stability (now 4 instead of 2) right off the bat while leaving room for enemy players to counterplay by interrupting/dodging the skill.

I'd like Lock On to be addressed and have it's on-hit proc removed and the cooldown increased to 30 seconds. To compensate for the loss of fury, I think lowing the minor trait, Excessive Energy's 10% damage bonus while under the effects of vigor to 5% but also giving the engi 2 seconds of fury (3s with Compounding Chemicals + Rune of Leadership) every time they gain vigor with a 5s ICD.

I'd like to see rifle's Net Shot and Overcharged Shot both have 1/2s cast times with fast but clear animations, similar to a Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Also, removing the self-cc on Overcharged Shot would be a welcome change as it no longer requires the engi to stunbreak/have stab prior to using it.

For Toss Elixir S, the stealth could be reduced to 2 seconds (3s while traited with HGH) and also cleanse movement impairing conditions and/or grant 2 seconds of super speed to help balance it out.

I guess Healing Turret can remain 3/4s cast time but I still think it's difficult for a lot of classes to interrupt skills like HT, False Oasis, and Troll Unguent simply because their CCs have similar cast times as well.

Idk if I missed anything but yeah. If ya'll still wanna flame me that's cool lol, it is the internet after all and it'd be pretty silly if I actually cared about any/every little comment random people make about me. Forums are one of the ways I pass my time throughout the day if I don't have anything else going on. These are just my opinions/suggestions from my own experiences playing this game, not everyone will agree with them and that's fine. But feel free to share your opinions, thoughts, and feedback. :)

! 1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.! 2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.! 3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.! 4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.! 5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.! 6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.! 7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.!!

No to everything. Complaining about a class and you don't even know what the issue is. The stability should not have been nerfed on U, either. It was a problem with quickness, not stability which was already nerfed once.

You can't remove the lock on trait either because that messes up every build and engineer stunbreakers aren't even overpowered dude.

At a glance, it looks like you're complaining about core engineer which is lol.

@"Ruufio.1496" said:No to everything. Complaining about a class and you don't even know what the issue is. The stability should not have been nerfed on U, either. It was a problem with quickness, not stability which was already nerfed once.

You can't remove the lock on trait either because that messes up every build and engineer stunbreakers aren't even overpowered dude.

I don't think the Elixir U stab should've been nerfed.

Sorry but if you think 12 seconds of reveal, high fury uptime, 20 stacks of vulnerability, and 6 seconds of vigor on a 25s cooldown passive trait is fine, you have an extremely skewed sense of balance.

Rifle also has 2 low cooldown skills that either cc and/or prevent dodges that don't have cast times/animations. Like it's insane how some engi mains actually claim stuff like this is fine.

I'd love to have a free 6 seconds of stealth every 30 seconds to completely reset any fight twice every minute. Whooo fun and balanced right?

Core engi needs buffs but saying, "You can't nerf Holo because Core Engi D:" is silly. Anet needs to buff core traitlines that are chronically underused if they want builds like core engi to see play. Still, it doesn't take away from the fact that rifle is a very, very strong weapon for setting up damage/dealing damage/kiting. Also, adding short cast times and visible animations is a pretty reasonable thing to ask for and aren't incredibly heavy "nerfs" as opposed to QoL changes for everyone fighting against it.

@"Ruufio.1496" said:No to everything. Complaining about a class and you don't even know what the issue is. The stability should not have been nerfed on U, either. It was a problem with quickness, not stability which was already nerfed once.

You can't remove the lock on trait either because that messes up every build and engineer stunbreakers aren't even overpowered dude.

At a glance, it looks like you're complaining about core engineer which is lol.

Elixir U only got stability back in July 2018. It hasn't even been a year and a half since then. Holo has been a top tier ranked build and a solid if not meta side choice for MATs both before and after that. Engineer existed, and has had a variety of solid to top tier builds for years before it ever got stability on Elixir U.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Ruufio.1496" said:No to everything. Complaining about a class and you don't even know what the issue is. The stability should not have been nerfed on U, either. It was a problem with quickness, not stability which was already nerfed once.

You can't remove the lock on trait either because that messes up every build and engineer stunbreakers aren't even overpowered dude.

At a glance, it looks like you're complaining about core engineer which is lol.

Yes and it got the stability because engineers badly needed it for years since it's not mesmer/thief and was for a while a free kill. That stability badly needs to be returned. Nerf the quickness, sure. Holosmith can't have 1 source of stability which also requires you to land the hit. Give us ports and evades if that's going to be the case.

Holosmith basically has 1 unreliable source of stability now. Reaper is more reliable in that case, and has perma quickness lol.

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:No to everything. Complaining about a class and you don't even know what the issue is. The stability should not have been nerfed on U, either. It was a problem with quickness, not stability which was already nerfed once.

You can't remove the lock on trait either because that messes up every build and engineer stunbreakers aren't even overpowered dude.

At a glance, it looks like you're complaining about core engineer which is lol.

Yeah I remember all those free...kill scrappers... back in Heart of Thorns?

So a engi saying holo isnt still op? Hmm weird lolThey still need more tuning down.

If you can't beat holos wholesale now I'm not sure what can help you. The matchup vs holo can't be any easier. I'll spell it out:

1) Don't get hit by corona burst.2) Wait for / pressure for dodge.3) Cast CC skill4) Repeat until dead.

Trivial.

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

My man said Net SHOT and BlunderBuss. LMAO

Nerf prot holo more, not tools :)

@zoopop.5630 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

Net Shot is a 2 second immobilize on a 9 second cooldown without a cast time. If you honestly believe this skill is balanced then you're lying to yourself.

Blunderbuss can crit very hard for a 1/2 seconds cast time (less with quickness).

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

Also going to ignore the fact that Net shot misses 90% of the time? Probably the most useless skill on rifle lmaooooooo.

@zoopop.5630 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

If you use it from max range, then sure. However, I'm assuming you've played PvP before?

If you have, then you would know that a majority of the fights take place in melee range. Therefore, Net Shot is extremely reliable and can set up CCs/damage very easily/frequently because it doesn't have a cast time or animation to avoid in closer ranges.

Most of ppl that don't know how holosmith works, say post like this.They want literally a useless core engi

@Chaith.8256

you seem to have zero sense of what needs to be nerfed.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:you seem to have zero sense of what needs to be nerfed.

I want:

1. Visible animations on CC/high damage skills
2. Nerf of a passive, high uptime reveal + buff + debuff trait with two, identically functioning charges that do not share the same cooldown
3. Stealth reduction on a 30 second cooldown, 6 second stealth that allows the holo to completely reset the fight every time they use it
4. A slight increase on the cast time of Healing Turret so CCs with 3/4s cast times can interrupt it
5. A range decrease on photon forge autos which have double the range of basically every other melee auto attack in the game on top of dealing more damage

In my opinion, both stacks of stability should be moved to the first pulse of Corona Burst and the stab duration can be added back onto Elixir U as well.

dude shadow ur so lost in the sauce ur beyond saving

There are issues with holo, like with every PoF spec, but none of these things are problematic.

holo is fine as it is. if u start nerfing around in meta classes, you soon have only trash left. the stealthing - load - burst is a bit trashy, but they don't have long time for doing this, the invis does barely hold long enough to move around a corner. with stability and a dodge u avoid most damage for example ;P

I think people miss the point he is trying to make.He wants no tell CC to be gone but he also wants engi to get compensation.But as it is with whiners they dont feel like providing anything suitable for buffs, so here we are.

EDIT@shadowpass.4236 to you mate.MENTION in your post that you also want buffs to core engi, and mb provide what kind of buffs would be acceptable.Masses wont watch your entire video like I did or will simple ignore what you said.This is repeat of nerf mesmer mantra where you whined on everything and everyone just started trolling you.

Yeah nerf Holo further and buff Rev more. Will clearly improve the meta. Also make sure to keep hitting the core mechanics on engi, so the chance of ever having a viable is even lower. The crybabies on this forum will keep on crying about everything that beats them, which is unfortunately, everything as soon as a good player is behind it.

BTW, why is there no block function on this forum?

Oh dear apparently multiple people are fine with getting hard cc'd off-point with no tell in melee range. Yay

@NationalNacho.5972

Also I'm not sure if you play a side noder or any class that stealths frequently but getting random revealed for 6 seconds constantly just cause a holo can spam 1 and hit an entire point, tag you with a stray static discharge bounce, or face in your general direction and use blunderbuss (which also has a nearly nonexistent animation and extremely low cast time) is actually retarded.

Half the reason it's so hard to kill a Holosmith is because they have Toss Elixir S that gives them a long, 6 second stealth (3 seconds less than traited mass invis) every 30 seconds with an animation that's so quick it's impossible to reactively interrupt (unlike the long cast time on mass invis).

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

1. agree
2. agree
3. rofl nope it is fine as it is
4. nope don't see any problems here
5. not sure how to deal with that one. For a hard cc in melee it has too less counterplay in current state but threating it like Ranger bow knockback is alsowrong because it has a self punish effect other cc doesn't have. A better animation would help a lot already.
6. Autoattacks in general should not have such high dmg that spamming it is rewarding enough, imo the dmg is too high. Reduce dmg and let the range as it is.
7. Hell no! 3/4 cast time for a heal is totally ok, the problem was more the free full reset with Elixier s what doesn't get solved by higher casttime anyway,also you already want to nerf Elixier s. Tools which are meant for these kind of mindful interrupts have way lower cast times (daze often is instant) andcan interrupt it with a good chance by watching the animation, hard cc with casttime from 3/4 is not meant for that purpose. 3/4 casttime hard cc ismeant to lock down, it can be used to interrupt when you predict the healuse correctly what then is balanced because it needs another braincell fromthe user. Giving heals a casttime so every hard cc (that is not only a daze) in this game can interrupt it easy makes it unplayable. That is exactly whatstuff like Mantra of Distraction is for and not your lock down hard cc. Lock down hard cc is not an interrupt tool in the first place.

@bravan.3876 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

1. agree
2. agree
3. rofl nope it is fine as it is
4. nope don't see any problems here
5. not sure how to deal with that one. For a hard cc in melee it has too less counterplay in current state but threating it like Ranger bow knockback is also wrongbecause it has a self punish effect other cc doesn't have. A better animation would help a lot already.
6. Autoattacks in general should not have such high dmg that spamming it is rewarding enough, imo the dmg is too high. Reduce dmg and let the range as it is.
7. Hell no! 3/4 cast time for a heal is totally ok, the problem was more the free full reset with Elixier s what doesn't get solved by higher casttime anyway, also youalready want to nerf Elixier s. Tools which are meant for these kind of mindful interrupts have way lower cast times (daze often is instant) and can interrupt it with agood chance by watching the animation, hard cc with casttime from 3/4 is not meant for that purpose. 3/4 casttime hard cc is meant to lock down, it can be used tointerrupt when you predict the healuse correctly what then is balanced because it needs another braincell from the user. Giving heals a casttime so every hard cc(that is not only a daze) in this game can interrupt it easy makes it unplayable. That is exactly what stuff like Mantra of Distraction is for and not your lock down hardcc. Lock down hard cc is not an interrupt tool in the first place.

Regarding the healing skill, I'd like Troll Unguent to be increased to 1s from 3/4s as well. Like ranger might not be meta but there's still stuff I find problematic with my own class.

All I want is proper risk vs. reward. When I'm fighting, it should feel like I'm fighting against the player not the build. Unfortunately, specs like Holosmith can quite literally rotate 2-5 on rifle, throw a particle accelerator in there, enter photon forge and roll 2-5, then spam 1 for a few seconds and repeat. Then, if they get pressured, they have Healing Turret which can only be reliably interrupted by instant/near instant CCs, and then they have Elixir S and Toss Elixir S (with the latter being a 6 second stealth on a 30 second cooldown in an AoE).

Lock On is also a completely passive trait that gives Holos stupid amounts of value against classes that can stealth with little to no input/additional thought on their part but at least you agree with this one.

@"shadowpass.4236" said:All I want is proper risk vs. reward. When I'm fighting, it should feel like I'm fighting against the player not the build. Unfortunately, specs like Holosmith can quite literally rotate 2-5 on rifle, throw a particle accelerator in there, enter photon forge and roll 2-5, then spam 1 for a few seconds and repeat. Then, if they get pressured, they have Healing Turret which can only be reliably interrupted by instant/near instant CCs, and then they have Elixir S and Toss Elixir S (with the latter being a 6 second stealth on a 30 second cooldown in an AoE).

1.) Must not be able to rotate skills #2-5 on both weapon sets, not enough risk of missing multiple abilities,2.) Heal skills must be be under reliable threat of being interrupted, not enough risk to sustain primarily with 3/4s cast time skills,3.) A spec spending up to 20% of gameplay in stealth is too much, not enough risk because 6s of stealth every 30s removes risk of dying,

Did I accurately sum up your 3 reasons of how Holosmith is too low risk?

I can't launch into an extensive list of whataboutisms because these 3 standards you're applying don't apply to anybody else. Apparently GW2 doesn't have proper risk vs. reward: Show me a weapon set you absolutely can't faceroll to moderate accuracy with reasonably short cooldowns, show me a class that has no access to uninterruptable sustain abilities, or can cover/layer instead defensive skills to reliably self-sustain without real threat of one well-timed headshot ending their life. Show me a spec that has access to stealth can't pull 6 seconds off on a reasonable cooldown.

Mirage exists and this thread be like: "Yup, unfair to faceroll Rifle and Photon Forge." "Yup, unfair for a heal skill to not be readily interruptable." "Yup, 6 seconds of stealth every 30s is broken for a class to achieve."

And then after: Staff 2-3-4-5, Scepter-Pistol 5-4-3-2, while dodges during the casting of their heal skill, and then instantly vanish and reset combat.

Edit: Not an argument to how Mirage or Holo are over or under performing, just pointing out how risk/reward often works in GW2, it's gonna be often be asymmetrical among classes with various balances of risk vs. reward

The amount of hypocrisy truly astounds.