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Core Power Mesmer Is Nasty Toxic Nonesense


Trevor Boyer.6524

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I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.

It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.

~ Edit

I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:

  1. Nuclear damage output. This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
  2. Too many instant cast pre-charged skills. It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
  3. Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility. Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
  4. There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build. Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
  5. Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds -> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.

I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra bad feeling about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

XgdCok7.jpg

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@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years

In the past it was limited for a variety of reasons, including that clones and phantasms competed for each other on the Mesmer's profession mechanic, with that removed phantasms became alot more potent, since they're "unlimted." The numbers are lower in PvP/WvW after recent nerfs but in PvE with the recharge signet you can bring up like ten phantasms at once.

Combine this with instant, pre-charged attacks like Mantras and you can very easily explode someone with zero effort. Nerfs have helped but its still possible to bring a rediculous amount of firepower to the fight in 2-3 seconds of casting.

What makes it dangerous is that mechanics like stealth and Blink allow this to happen right on top of you.

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Core Power Mesmer is absolutely disgusting, the Chaos buffs (superspeed...) really made this a nuisance.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years

Same thing happened with Fire Weaver, a build that was never really discovered until months after the Fire Aura condi cleanse trait was introduced.

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u know i'm not defending the build but u can't really say there is no counter play

the counter play is simply ur reaction. u will most likely say how can u react to that in 1 - 2 sec.

The instant dead is very common in League. 1 shot from stealth 1 shot from brush 1 shot from dark area.

super fast reaction is part of what determined how good player is

https://twitter.com/gzeebee/status/1073584565464121344?s=20

something like this.

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@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years~7 years you mean? And thats just OP, always hated mesmers just like most of ppl who are lost in clones. Crying for nerfs, especially on core, heh.I alrdy can see the bright future for this ~20 players left that still play "competitively"

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"NationalNacho.5972" said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

Ok, an extra second to charge, cant remember the dmg spike though

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@"NationalNacho.5972" said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

Ok, an extra second to charge, cant remember the dmg spike though
  • he gives the biggest hit, fore every 5k crit I got on mantra I got hits for 600.Its one of thse things where X class being mesmer Has good this this and that, and other want it gone.But they dont wanna give us Y and Z that other classes have. They are content with making mes worse and worse.I was content playing chrono in pvp mate, but the nerfs push us to more stupid and stupid builds.Nobody mentions that half the fucking traits and abilities are so unreliable that even when you land them then they still can whiff.ExAmPlEsS.Gs2 -> it can just bounce to allies/pets/clones and just hit once.Gs4 -> sword can just miss, and berserker just clip you for 2hits without dodging dealing almost no damageTHen even dmg modifiers like dmg on vulnerability can be cleansed, complex is under 50% and on crit only, then there is 5% when you have more hp -> again unreliable.The only way to proc all these traits and to force them to work is to actually stun and 1shot.
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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"NationalNacho.5972" said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

Ok, an extra second to charge, cant remember the dmg spike though
  • he gives the biggest hit, fore every 5k crit I got on mantra I got hits for 600.Its one of thse things where X class being mesmer Has good this this and that, and other want it gone.But they dont wanna give us Y and Z that other classes have. They are content with making mes worse and worse.I was content playing chrono in pvp mate, but the nerfs push us to more stupid and stupid builds.Nobody mentions that half the kitten traits and abilities are so unreliable that even when you land them then they still can whiff.ExAmPlEsS.Gs2 -> it can just bounce to allies/pets/clones and just hit once.Gs4 -> sword can just miss, and berserker just clip you for 2hits without dodging dealing almost no damageTHen even dmg modifiers like dmg on vulnerability can be cleansed, complex is under 50% and on crit only, then there is 5% when you have more hp -> again unreliable.The only way to proc all these traits and to force them to work is to actually stun and 1shot.

mantra of pain is one of the most single handed broken offensive utilities in the game, always has been.

Mantra power chrono was significantly more brain dead to play than current core mantra mesmer - I hate the changes they did to chrono shatters but the damage modifiers from slow and the synergy with MoD/MoP was free, low skill, instant cast high damage

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@NationalNacho.5972 said:

@NationalNacho.5972 said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

Ok, an extra second to charge, cant remember the dmg spike though
  • he gives the biggest hit, fore every 5k crit I got on mantra I got hits for 600.Its one of thse things where X class being mesmer Has good this this and that, and other want it gone.But they dont wanna give us Y and Z that other classes have. They are content with making mes worse and worse.I was content playing chrono in pvp mate, but the nerfs push us to more stupid and stupid builds.Nobody mentions that half the kitten traits and abilities are so unreliable that even when you land them then they still can whiff.ExAmPlEsS.Gs2 -> it can just bounce to allies/pets/clones and just hit once.Gs4 -> sword can just miss, and berserker just clip you for 2hits without dodging dealing almost no damageTHen even dmg modifiers like dmg on vulnerability can be cleansed, complex is under 50% and on crit only, then there is 5% when you have more hp -> again unreliable.The only way to proc all these traits and to force them to work is to actually stun and 1shot.

mantra of pain is one of the most single handed broken offensive utilities in the game, always has been.

Mantra power chrono was significantly more brain dead to play than current core mantra mesmer - I hate the changes they did to chrono shatters but the damage modifiers from slow and the synergy with MoD/MoP was free, low skill, instant cast high damage

You instantly assumed I playe chrono 1shot build, good way to make you look dumb.As I said, take away good stuff dont fix the bad stuff.Propose reasonable nerfs to fix the issue.Propose reasonable buffs to fix the issue.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"NationalNacho.5972" said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

I wish I had mantra on reaper, at least reaper is fairly easy to avoid as all you have to do is keep away, on mesmer, it's a braindead build that requires little to no thought to 1 shot people by going invis stunning and just 1 hit kill. It's even more braindead than Deadeye. Then again mesmers have always given the illusion of skill no? i mean they have been super overpowered for so long with ridiculous movesets like infinite spam of illusions that blow up your enemies in second and infinite condi spamming mirage.

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@Axl.8924 said:

@"NationalNacho.5972" said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

I wish I had mantra on reaper, at least reaper is fairly easy to avoid as all you have to do is keep away, on mesmer, it's a braindead build that requires little to no thought to 1 shot people by going invis stunning and just 1 hit kill. It's even more braindead than Deadeye. Then again mesmers have always given the illusion of skill no? i mean they have been super overpowered for so long with ridiculous movesets like infinite spam of illusions that blow up your enemies in second and infinite condi spamming mirage.

And I wish I could have perma quickness from reapoer, I wish mt every ability crit for 10k. I wish that if im left alone during A fight for 5s I can spin for 30k dmg.Alas, this "braindead" 1shot build takes more thought to play then any monkey build people think are hard to play.Mechanical skill needed =/ thought needed to play.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@"NationalNacho.5972" said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

I wish I had mantra on reaper, at least reaper is fairly easy to avoid as all you have to do is keep away, on mesmer, it's a braindead build that requires little to no thought to 1 shot people by going invis stunning and just 1 hit kill. It's even more braindead than Deadeye. Then again mesmers have always given the illusion of skill no? i mean they have been super overpowered for so long with ridiculous movesets like infinite spam of illusions that blow up your enemies in second and infinite condi spamming mirage.

And I wish I could have perma quickness from reapoer, I wish mt every ability crit for 10k. I wish that if im left alone during A fight for 5s I can spin for 30k dmg.Alas, this "braindead" 1shot build takes more thought to play then any monkey build people think are hard to play.Mechanical skill needed =/ thought needed to play.

The difference is you got infinite escapes plus a kitten high burst.

Reaper hits very very hard but without that quickness, we cannot land a blow as its super slow.

Reaper can be kited fairly easily and requires actually trying to get people into a tight area so you can land a shot because anyone and his mother can kite a reaper due to lack of mobility and a very limited amount of stab, so you can pretty much kite reapers with any class if you know how to.

Remember the druid video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEJwTjfSYlA&feature=emb_title

see how the reaper is having so much trouble? yeah if he lands his attacks he could land a kill, but the word of the day is "IF" in fact not only that but burst from the outside also limits how long his shroud lasts also making his attacks more limited, plus lack of getting out balances reaper.

mesmers have fewer of these unlike reaper, so it's about time other classes get balanced too, so they don't have ridiculously high sustain and dmg and mobility combined.

What i mean to say is I think reaper is well balanced, I think its the other classes power creep.

Maybe one the other classes are nerfed and mobility and sustain is more balanced then can reaper take a hit to dmg.

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@"NationalNacho.5972" said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

I wish I had mantra on reaper, at least reaper is fairly easy to avoid as all you have to do is keep away, on mesmer, it's a braindead build that requires little to no thought to 1 shot people by going invis stunning and just 1 hit kill. It's even more braindead than Deadeye. Then again mesmers have always given the illusion of skill no? i mean they have been super overpowered for so long with ridiculous movesets like infinite spam of illusions that blow up your enemies in second and infinite condi spamming mirage.

And I wish I could have perma quickness from reapoer, I wish mt every ability crit for 10k. I wish that if im left alone during A fight for 5s I can spin for 30k dmg.Alas, this "braindead" 1shot build takes more thought to play then any monkey build people think are hard to play.Mechanical skill needed =/ thought needed to play.

The difference is you got infinite escapes plus a kitten high burst.

Reaper hits very very hard but without that quickness, we cannot land a blow as its super slow.

Reaper can be kited fairly easily and requires actually trying to get people into a tight area so you can land a shot because anyone and his mother can kite a reaper due to lack of mobility and a very limited amount of stab, so you can pretty much kite reapers with any class if you know how to.

Remember the druid video?

see how the reaper is having so much trouble? yeah if he lands his attacks he could land a kill, but the word of the day is "IF" in fact not only that but burst from the outside also limits how long his shroud lasts also making his attacks more limited, plus lack of getting out balances reaper.

mesmers have fewer of these unlike reaper, so it's about time other classes get balanced too, so they don't have ridiculously high sustain and dmg and mobility combined.

What i mean to say is I think reaper is well balanced, I think its the other classes power creep.

Maybe one the other classes are nerfed and mobility and sustain is more balanced then can reaper take a hit to dmg.

Infinite escapes huh? alright mate, the biggest dumbasses I have seen in PvP were scourges and reapers for a reason.Alot of mesmer skills are underpowered due to the reasons people want them nerfed, if you nerf them you gonna have to buff those powers.Exampleeehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Stab + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_Blade . they together deal same damage as https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spinal_Shivers . but here is a catch, you have to hit all 3 bounces!.1 Ranged ability deals same damage as 2 Ranged abilities while having to rely on RnG bouncess, and round and round it goes with all abilities.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Axl.8924"https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ghastly_Claws alone deals MORE damage then Mirror blade ( when all 3 bounces land ) and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Berserker when by the grace of the gods sword lands and berserker somehow lands all its hits.also it has 8s cd kekW

It deals a lot of damage, but like i said necro has a ton of counters.

For one thing phantasmal has 1200 range, which alone is an advantage.

Second, you got tons of sustain abilities such as invulns and mobility stuff.

Ghastly claws are 900 range and have a cd of 8 sec, and necros need to deal that kind of damage as they have little to no sustain outside of reaper shroud and will die.Also, you can interrupt ghastly claws as its a channeling ability and deal full damage you have to finish channeling so if you see them do this interrupt or get invuln up, or use some sort of daze.

Besides you can do F1-f5 for all sorts of hard CCs at range and offensive condis, and as other necros have said necro's defense is conditional and it has gotten weaker over time, to the point where the effects of our conditional defenses are very limited and leave us often easy prey.

I'll trade you some damage on ax for some sustain moves and mobility on our weapon kits plus a few of those mobilities and sustain moves.

Also once everything else is balanced we can think about looking at mesmer's weakest abilities and what needs changing.

To me having so much hard cc at easy disposal and invis and invulnerbilities you guys have is a disaster.

Why should cheese death from invuln mesmers get a free pass when death from invuln thief or condi thief for instance or double pistol thief didn't?

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@Axl.8924 said:

alone deals MORE damage then Mirror blade ( when all 3 bounces land ) and
when by the grace of the gods sword lands and berserker somehow lands all its hits.also it has 8s cd kekW

It deals a lot of damage, but like i said necro has a ton of counters.

For one thing phantasmal has 1200 range, which alone is an advantage.

Second you got tons of sustain abilities such as invulns and mobility stuff.

Ghastly claws is 900 range and has a cd of 8 sec, and necros need to deal that kind of damage as they have little to no sustain outside of reaper shroud and will die.

Besides you can do F1-f5 for all sorts of hard CCs at range and offensive condis, and as other necros have said necro's defense is conditional and it has gotten weaker over time, to the point where the effects of our conditional defenses are very limited and leave us often easy prey.

I'l trade you some damage on ax for some sustain moves and mobility on our weapon kits plus a few of those mobilities and sustain moves.

Also once everything else is balanced we can think about looking at mesmer's weakest abilities and what needs changing.

To me having so much hard cc at easy disposal and invis and invulnerbilities you guys have is a disaster.

Why should cheese death from invuln mesmers get a free pass when death from invuln thief or condi thief for instance or double pistol thief didn't?

Ah so you see my point now yes?Our skills are worse version of other classes becouse we can use shit like shatters stealth and mantras.If you start removing shatters,stealth and mantras you have to start buffing our powers.Mesmer doesnt have mobility moves on its weapons, only exeption is mirage sword ambush.And another thing, we dont have much hard CC.Current 1shot pu mes has.F3 stun -> 38s cd off the top of my head.gs5 short knockback -> 30s cd of the top of my head.sword 3 immob 2s -> dont know the CD personally but its more likely to not actually hit then it is to hit.torch 5 -> 1/2s daze about 30s cd? it never lands anyways, unless you use it on downed/resing player.

As for ghastly claws, IT hits SO hard, that people use agility sigil on axe ONLY to land this one ability.To put this into perspective, I have to cast gs3 -> start casting gs2 -> blink into melee -> f3 stun -> f1 shatter -> gs2.this combo using 6 abilities will do 2x the damage of ghastly claws.There is a point where its just better to spam overtuned damage wise abilities like spinal becouse if the combo from mes doesnt kill its game over man.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

alone deals MORE damage then Mirror blade ( when all 3 bounces land ) and
when by the grace of the gods sword lands and berserker somehow lands all its hits.also it has 8s cd kekW

It deals a lot of damage, but like i said necro has a ton of counters.

For one thing phantasmal has 1200 range, which alone is an advantage.

Second you got tons of sustain abilities such as invulns and mobility stuff.

Ghastly claws is 900 range and has a cd of 8 sec, and necros need to deal that kind of damage as they have little to no sustain outside of reaper shroud and will die.

Besides you can do F1-f5 for all sorts of hard CCs at range and offensive condis, and as other necros have said necro's defense is conditional and it has gotten weaker over time, to the point where the effects of our conditional defenses are very limited and leave us often easy prey.

I'l trade you some damage on ax for some sustain moves and mobility on our weapon kits plus a few of those mobilities and sustain moves.

Also once everything else is balanced we can think about looking at mesmer's weakest abilities and what needs changing.

To me having so much hard cc at easy disposal and invis and invulnerbilities you guys have is a disaster.

Why should cheese death from invuln mesmers get a free pass when death from invuln thief or condi thief for instance or double pistol thief didn't?

Ah so you see my point now yes?Our skills are worse version of other classes becouse we can use kitten like shatters stealth and mantras.If you start removing shatters,stealth and mantras you have to start buffing our powers.Mesmer doesnt have mobility moves on its weapons, only exeption is mirage sword ambush.And another thing, we dont have much hard CC.Current 1shot pu mes has.F3 stun -> 38s cd off the top of my head.gs5 short knockback -> 30s cd of the top of my head.sword 3 immob 2s -> dont know the CD personally but its more likely to not actually hit then it is to hit.torch 5 -> 1/2s daze about 30s cd? it never lands anyways, unless you use it on downed/resing player.

As for ghastly claws, IT hits SO hard, that people use agility sigil on axe ONLY to land this one ability.To put this into perspective, I have to cast gs3 -> start casting gs2 -> blink into melee -> f3 stun -> f1 shatter -> gs2.this combo using 6 abilities will do 2x the damage of ghastly claws.There is a point where its just better to spam overtuned damage wise abilities like spinal becouse if the combo from mes doesnt kill its game over man.

Chrono has a ton of stuff with shield though and they can generate illusions fairly well enough to shatter. GS shield plus you can deflect fairly well add a ton of buffs sus as protection quickness with your f buttons and other stuff, which necro doesn't have easy access to.

There is a reason people cried for changes to necro sustain outside of reaper shroud, and its because once they get caught, they are almost certainly dead, which is why death magic change was attempted to fix core necro sustain itself, and why people also ask for some extra stab, because of how much CC flies around.

They start with 0 life force when the match stars so they need to build up for it and are easy prey. Also, a lot of that stuff you are talking about is also in melee range, which is super dangerous for necro outside shroud.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@NationalNacho.5972 said:Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time

only trashcans play mantra mesmer

Why do you post something before taking look at the facts?

Ok, an extra second to charge, cant remember the dmg spike though
  • he gives the biggest hit, fore every 5k crit I got on mantra I got hits for 600.Its one of thse things where X class being mesmer Has good this this and that, and other want it gone.But they dont wanna give us Y and Z that other classes have. They are content with making mes worse and worse.I was content playing chrono in pvp mate, but the nerfs push us to more stupid and stupid builds.Nobody mentions that half the kitten traits and abilities are so unreliable that even when you land them then they still can whiff.ExAmPlEsS.Gs2 -> it can just bounce to allies/pets/clones and just hit once.Gs4 -> sword can just miss, and berserker just clip you for 2hits without dodging dealing almost no damageTHen even dmg modifiers like dmg on vulnerability can be cleansed, complex is under 50% and on crit only, then there is 5% when you have more hp -> again unreliable.The only way to proc all these traits and to force them to work is to actually stun and 1shot.

mantra of pain is one of the most single handed broken offensive utilities in the game, always has been.

Mantra power chrono was significantly more brain dead to play than current core mantra mesmer - I hate the changes they did to chrono shatters but the damage modifiers from slow and the synergy with MoD/MoP was free, low skill, instant cast high damage

You instantly assumed I played chrono 1shot build, good way to make you look dumb.As I said, take away good stuff dont fix the bad stuff.Propose reasonable nerfs to fix the issue.Propose reasonable buffs to fix the issue.

"You instantly assumed I played chrono 1shot build"

The reason I assumed you played chrono one shot was due to your instant defensive take to defend MoP, which historically is always the stance of low tier mesmers who like "meme" killing actual good players with low counterplay 1 shots and thinking theyre good for doing so. With that said, the only other relevant chrono build in recent memory that used MoP was the chrono bunker build, which was still a low skill build that was hard carried by MoP (and Chaos trait line) for all the same reasons, it gave it relevant, spammable, low counterplay damage to force CDs adequately with the added benefit of procing restorative mantras every 2 seconds for massive Hp/s.

Now, ill humor you. Core power mes is fine as a build, I dont even see (any) mesmer builds as a problematic from a comp/high tier perspective for say mATs since the most recent patch. So specifically the issues people have arent from a top tier perspective and/or are from a counter play/anti fun perspective. With that said, one of the lowest counter play, anti fun things that brings power mesmer damage over the top is - Mantra of pain. Power core mes and power mirage do not one shot meta/near meta builds at all without mantra of pain (might stacks + 2 charges) - So it is an obvious thing to target in my opinion. I think the stealth is, while potentially annoying, a lesser factor since its not going to influence much in conquest and core mesmer already has limited survivability after the first 15 or so seconds of a fight.

"Propose reasonable nerfs to fix the issue. Propose reasonable buffs to fix the issue."

Slightly hypocritical when your initial post in this thread was only an attempt to devalue my post, and youve added no actual suggestions yourself. You have just provided some minor anecdotal accounts for why you feel like power mesmer is fine. Im not going to sit here and dismiss what youve posted but I dont think your accounts assume optimal or near optimal play (since you mention missing abilities... that arent that hard to land consistently, especially given the tools mesmer has to setup effective damage). Now I didnt elaborate fully on my reasoning for "delete mantra of pain" in my initial post but there is still ample evidence in that original post that I would assume most intelligent folk could put together that the skill does too much for little cost and little risk - It is extremely bloated.

"Its often easier to attack the person than it is to debate what they have to say." - You attacked the incorrect minor mistake in mantra channel time, instead of attempting to understand the thesis of my original post.

To continue humoring you - Mantra of pain is conceptually broken. You could "fix" it in two potential ways;

  1. Nerf the numbers into oblivion (pvp/pve split) Reduce the might stacks, and damage it does. Essentially removing it from viability - Easy to execute, good outcome for game play, trash outcome for the skill (its useless).

  2. Rework how the damage is delivered; IE mantra of pain is now a projectile or it works like it currently does but has a delayed effect similar to scourge shades that have a small aoe ring that fills out before the damage lands (Allowing counter play). In this option it still greatly nerfs 1 shot builds due to the (obvious) telegraph but builds that existed like the previously mentioned bunker chrono would have still benefited from MoP working like this, since it would still provide the consistent damage and healing.

(If they ever did re work how mantras apply their damage/effect they should do the same to mantra of distraction since people have similar complaints about the low counter play)

Random side note; Chrono once was (post bunker chrono) a really fun, rewarding, high skill cap, high floor spec to play and it has been reduced to an abomination spec that feels horrible to play, and for who knows what reasons. But to save myself time ill just quote myself; "I have been consistent with what ive always preached, that is, changing the "feel" of classes that a lot of people have grown to love over a period of 7 years while failing to address the specific desirable outcome is a damn shame. change is good, and understandable when it makes a difference and reaches the desired outcome. Its just too bad historically thats not been the case from the view of a lot of the people I play with and speak to - Which leads to resentment."

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

alone deals MORE damage then Mirror blade ( when all 3 bounces land ) and
when by the grace of the gods sword lands and berserker somehow lands all its hits.also it has 8s cd kekW

It deals a lot of damage, but like i said necro has a ton of counters.

For one thing phantasmal has 1200 range, which alone is an advantage.

Second you got tons of sustain abilities such as invulns and mobility stuff.

Ghastly claws is 900 range and has a cd of 8 sec, and necros need to deal that kind of damage as they have little to no sustain outside of reaper shroud and will die.

Besides you can do F1-f5 for all sorts of hard CCs at range and offensive condis, and as other necros have said necro's defense is conditional and it has gotten weaker over time, to the point where the effects of our conditional defenses are very limited and leave us often easy prey.

I'l trade you some damage on ax for some sustain moves and mobility on our weapon kits plus a few of those mobilities and sustain moves.

Also once everything else is balanced we can think about looking at mesmer's weakest abilities and what needs changing.

To me having so much hard cc at easy disposal and invis and invulnerbilities you guys have is a disaster.

Why should cheese death from invuln mesmers get a free pass when death from invuln thief or condi thief for instance or double pistol thief didn't?

Ah so you see my point now yes?Our skills are worse version of other classes becouse we can use kitten like shatters stealth and mantras.If you start removing shatters,stealth and mantras you have to start buffing our powers.Mesmer doesnt have mobility moves on its weapons, only exeption is mirage sword ambush.And another thing, we dont have much hard CC.Current 1shot pu mes has.F3 stun -> 38s cd off the top of my head.gs5 short knockback -> 30s cd of the top of my head.sword 3 immob 2s -> dont know the CD personally but its more likely to not actually hit then it is to hit.torch 5 -> 1/2s daze about 30s cd? it never lands anyways, unless you use it on downed/resing player.

As for ghastly claws, IT hits SO hard, that people use agility sigil on axe ONLY to land this one ability.To put this into perspective, I have to cast gs3 -> start casting gs2 -> blink into melee -> f3 stun -> f1 shatter -> gs2.this combo using 6 abilities will do 2x the damage of ghastly claws.There is a point where its just better to spam overtuned damage wise abilities like spinal becouse if the combo from mes doesnt kill its game over man.

Chrono has a ton of stuff with shield though and they can generate illusions fairly well enough to shatter. GS shield plus you can deflect fairly well add a ton of buffs sus as protection quickness with your f buttons and other stuff, which necro doesn't have easy access to.

There is a reason people cried for changes to necro sustain outside of reaper shroud, and its because once they get caught, they are almost certainly dead, which is why death magic change was attempted to fix core necro sustain itself, and why people also ask for some extra stab, because of how much CC flies around.

They start with 0 life force when the match stars so they need to build up for it and are easy prey. Also, a lot of that stuff you are talking about is also in melee range, which is super dangerous for necro outside shroud.

Spinal and ghastly has 900 and 1200 range, those arent melee ranges.Chrono is unplayable, no point even mentioning it.As for necro, I think they should passively regain to 10% of their shround out of combat, if you are at 50% stay at 50, but if you are at under 10% it should go up to that number.It lets you use reaper shroud for monility etc etc, necros would find a way to make use of it.

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