A few questions on Margonites and the Fall of Abaddon — Guild Wars 2 Forums

A few questions on Margonites and the Fall of Abaddon

Dondarrion.2748Dondarrion.2748 Member ✭✭

Working on a "popularised/fan-fiction" lore feature on the history of Elona/Crystal Desert; and going through all my notes on the Margonites and Abaddon; I have some questions I hope someone either knows the answer to or at least can help ponder. :)

  • The Margonites defile the shrines of the other five Gods in the Temple of the Gods; allegedly located on the coast of the Crystal Sea; and their action fuels the conflict between Abaddon and his brethren, initially caused by the retraction of the gift of magic. Roughly whereabout was this Temple of the Gods, marked on a current map? The articles I've read further suggest Abaddon, his transformed Margonites and the defiled temple were all banished to the Realm of Torment; so I'm guessing there are no ruins left to see in either the Crystal Desert or the Desolation?

  • Lord Jadoth flees the Forgotten armada; the Margonites having been forced into exile in the Crystal Sea. He is veiled in mists that Abaddon conjured, and responding to his plea for aid to defeat or "send the Forgotten to the watery depths", Abaddon causes a giant maelstrom in the Crystal Sea. A few questions here; the Margonites being forced into exile in the Crystal Sea; does that mean they were chased from the Clashing Seas, where they originally ruled, by the Forgotten armies?

  • And a bit about the map and the exact location of the Crystal Sea; would you say the river inlet running north of Orr and southeastward direction along the "Scavenger Causeway" is the direction the Margonites followed to enter the Crystal Sea? The Crystal Sea is once referred to as being a boundless ocean; but how does that fit with it being an inland sea with a coastline to the east and then supposedly Vabbi to the south and the pre-transformation Desolation in the west?
  • Also, this maelstrom Abaddon created, it's talked about as a rift? Is there any connection between this, and the rift at the Mouth of Torment where Abaddon was struck down and imprisoned in the Realm of Torment with his transformed Margonites?

The feature will probably make some subjective speculations to tell a story that fits together; but it would be nice to see if I've maybe overlooked any definite answers to some of these events.

Lord Sazed (Grd), Mistress Glaive (War), Hasla the Huntress (Rng), Seaguard Hala (Mes)
Dragon Season (DS), Seafarer's Rest (SFR)

Comments

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    As far as I know, there are no definitive answers to your questions, although there is one comment I can make:

    Regarding the defiled temple: not only is it banished to the Realm of Torment, but you can actually visit it, and in fact have to in order to complete Nightfall. Unless my memory has completely failed me, it's the temple where you fight Shiro and Khilbron and then speak to the Muse of Lyssa. So you're probably right in saying that there are no ruins of it to be found in Tyria... although it is possible that it's possible to identify where it was, or that what we find in the Realm of Torment is actually a Nightfallen mirror of the temple similar to Nightfallen Jahai.

  • Ah; time to fire up GW1 again and go check out the Gate of Madness. But it would be nice to get a more precise idea of where in Tyria the temple once resided... I was looking over the map and was wondering if perhaps the site of the Temple of Ascension could be the same location where the old temple was; seeing as how the temple would be a suitable location to come seeking Ascension and commune with the Gods?

    Another two questions that I forgot above; the Tomb of the Primeval Kings; were those built after the Crystal Desert came into existence, or were they already there while the Crystal Sea existed, i.e. along the northern outskirts of "Elona"/"Vabbi" along the Crystal Sea coastline?

    And King Sahlahja; was he a Vabbian merchant prince; and why the King title if so? He presumeably ruled over a region in the Desolation and was one who fell/submitted to Joki's advancing forces - was he an early casualty when Palawa Joko conquered Vabbi? Mostly asking about his Vabbian affiliation due to his looks in ghost/spirit form.

    Lord Sazed (Grd), Mistress Glaive (War), Hasla the Huntress (Rng), Seaguard Hala (Mes)
    Dragon Season (DS), Seafarer's Rest (SFR)

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    Hrrrmn. I think that there's an indication that the Tomb of the Primeval Kings was constructed after Abaddon's banishment. The Primeval Kings certainly pushed north in the aftermath - they built the fortress-city of Morah, which watched over the Mouth of Torment until it had to be abandoned by the expanding Desolation.

    With regards to Sahlaja, the impression I get was that Sahlaja dates back to the Shattered Dynasties era (we know Joko was active during King Thorn's lifetime), and Sahlajar appears to be an independent kingdom that was outside of Kourna or Vabbi. I don't think that's been formally confirmed, but it seems to fit with the history as we know it.

  • Maethor.2810Maethor.2810 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Hrrrmn. I think that there's an indication that the Tomb of the Primeval Kings was constructed after Abaddon's banishment. The Primeval Kings certainly pushed north in the aftermath - they built the fortress-city of Morah, which watched over the Mouth of Torment until it had to be abandoned by the expanding Desolation.

    From what I recall, that is the case. The Primeval Kings expanded their rule northwards around 29AE including into the Desolation and CD and that year is when it is specified that was when they started burying their dead in the desert (Tomb of the PK in CD, Dynastic Tombs in Desolation, and Traitor's Tomb at some point). So I would assume they didn't start construction on the tombs until after their northward climb, which happens after Abaddon's banishment.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    @Maethor.2810 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Hrrrmn. I think that there's an indication that the Tomb of the Primeval Kings was constructed after Abaddon's banishment. The Primeval Kings certainly pushed north in the aftermath - they built the fortress-city of Morah, which watched over the Mouth of Torment until it had to be abandoned by the expanding Desolation.

    From what I recall, that is the case. The Primeval Kings expanded their rule northwards around 29AE including into the Desolation and CD and that year is when it is specified that was when they started burying their dead in the desert (Tomb of the PK in CD, Dynastic Tombs in Desolation, and Traitor's Tomb at some point). So I would assume they didn't start construction on the tombs until after their northward climb, which happens after Abaddon's banishment.

    Ah, yes. I was looking at the timeline to verify that King Thorn died before the end of the Shattered Dynasties, but didn't think to check if it gave a date for the northern expansion or the tombs. But that entry does seem pretty conclusive - if they didn't go into Vabbi or the Desolation until after the Exodus, we can probably conclude they didn't reach the region the TOPK until afterwards either.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Dondarrion.2748 said:
    Working on a "popularised/fan-fiction" lore feature on the history of Elona/Crystal Desert; and going through all my notes on the Margonites and Abaddon; I have some questions I hope someone either knows the answer to or at least can help ponder. :)
    -snip-

    • We don't know the exact location of the Temple of the Six, or even the rough location. I always figured it was on the southern shoreline though, due to the Margonite's ease of access to it (they ruled (part of) the Crystal Sea, Clashing Seas, and according to the gw.dat, Marga Coast too). Yes, the temple was indeed pulled into the Realm of Torment - we visit it during the mission Gate of Madness.
    • As I understand it, Jadoth was not exiled to the Crystal Sea in a formal way, so much that he was stranded on one of the islands in the Crystal Sea. He was being hunted down, so most likely scenario is that his ship was sunk and he survived the wreckage washing ashore. While Margonites did have domain over the Clashing Seas, we know they also had domain in the Crystal Sea for a time too.
    • Ultimately hard to say. I'm not really sure there was a coastline to the east though - we see in the world map that there is a large inland sea there. My theory is that the Crystal Sea once connected to it, and perhaps had a large river flowing near Marga Coast (thus explaining their presence there) and that the Margonites' main transport between the Crystal Sea and Clashing Seas was said river (or perhaps a strait) rather than the Strait of Malchor. If I'm right, then we're seeing a huge sea stretching east, with a sizable strait to the northwest and southwest. Making Orr + Scavenger's Causeway and the mountains on western Elonian shore to be a large island at the time. As for the "boundless ocean" bit... keep in mind that the game is greatly scaled down so the Crystal Sea (and desert) would be much larger than it seems in lore compared to how it seems in game. This may also be a case of inconsistent writing on ArenaNet's part; after all during Sea of Sorrows novel, the sea of the same name is called an ocean periodically and even the water over Orr is called an ocean in of itself. The "pre-transformation Desolation" would be south/southeast, rather than west.
    • I would say no. It seemed more like a rift in terms of separation in the clouds and sea rather than a portal to another place in the Mists.

    Second set of questions:

    • There's no known correlation between the Hall of Ascension and the Temple of the Six. If anything, I would correlate the Hall of Ascension with the Gate of Heaven that Abaddon laid siege to. However, it's also possible to correlate the Temple of the Six to the Gate of Heaven. Either way, I would find it equally if not more likely for said Gate of Heaven to be located near where the Mouth of Torment is now, whether connected to the Temple of the Six or not. One theory is that Abaddon fell at/near the Temple of the Six and the Mouth of Torment is not only where Abaddon's defeat was, but where the Temple was too as it has roughly the same shape (both being circular to it's not that great of an argument).
    • The Primeval Kings did not spread north until 29 AE - that meaning into the Crystal Desert and Vabbi. So all Elonian structures (be they tombs or cities) in The Desolation, Crystal Desert, and Vabbi are highly unlikely to predate that year. So the Tomb of the Primeval Kings was post-Exodus for sure.
    • Sahlahja is... rather questionable, in all honesty. He might have been one of the Pretender Kings, if I had to guess, as that is the latest timeframe in which any Elonian ruler took the title of king (besides Joko). While that puts Joko as being over 100 years older than we have records of him (Shattered Dynasty era ending in 640 AE; earliest record of Joko's existence is when he built the Bone Palace in 757 AE) that wouldn't be so surprising, the only other answer would be he is either a king from the Great Dynasty, or the Primeval Dynasty, and neither seems likely to have set the heart of a kingdom in the Desolation.
  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • There's no known correlation between the Hall of Ascension and the Temple of the Six. If anything, I would correlate the Hall of Ascension with the Gate of Heaven that Abaddon laid siege to. However, it's also possible to correlate the Temple of the Six to the Gate of Heaven. Either way, I would find it equally if not more likely for said Gate of Heaven to be located near where the Mouth of Torment is now, whether connected to the Temple of the Six or not. One theory is that Abaddon fell at/near the Temple of the Six and the Mouth of Torment is not only where Abaddon's defeat was, but where the Temple was too as it has roughly the same shape (both being circular to it's not that great of an argument).

    It would actually explain how it got sucked into the Realm of Torment if Abaddon's defeat had happened at the site of the temple. It'd essentially be collateral damage as Abaddon is being pulled into the Realm of Torment.

  • Thanks a lot for all your input; very useful for shaping up my story!

    I came across an article which cited "multiple Chinese sources" and wonder if it's anything related to the GW Taiwan info. Anyhow, I'm taking this with a huge pinch of salt, but it states:

    One particular tribe of humans lived exclusively on the high seas. The waters in which they sailed are now known as the Crystal Desert - known as the Crystal Sea at the time. During that time, it was a beautiful and bountiful place, nested between Tyria and Elona. The people there worshipped Abaddon exclusively, and upon hearing the news, they launched an attack on the "High Temples of the Six Gods" [Translator's note: reference unclear], a great place of worship on the northern shores of Elona.

    So according to that information; this would place the Temple on the southern shoreline, as you also suggested @Konig Des Todes.2086

    Lord Sazed (Grd), Mistress Glaive (War), Hasla the Huntress (Rng), Seaguard Hala (Mes)
    Dragon Season (DS), Seafarer's Rest (SFR)

  • Found another bit concerning the Temple of the Six Gods in a dialogue between a Tormented Soul and Kormir.

    Tormented Soul: "And when Abaddon fell, he pulled it down into Torment. It is now overrun by his Margonite worshipers."

    So, instead of the other Gods sending the temple to the Realm of Torment with Abaddon; he may actually have pulled it in. Could the Crystal Sea shoreline to Elona have been fairly close to where Mouth of Torment is. As you said, a great crater was left where Abaddon was struck down; possibly sending him "down" to the Realm of Torment with his remaining transformed Margonites, but not without him taking the Temple with him.

    Pure speculation that last bit; but at least the dialogue with the Tormented Soul must be considered seeing as it exists in-game in the original Guild Wars.

    Lord Sazed (Grd), Mistress Glaive (War), Hasla the Huntress (Rng), Seaguard Hala (Mes)
    Dragon Season (DS), Seafarer's Rest (SFR)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14

    Ah, I didn't recall that line. Which would mean Drax's conclusion of my line of thought would be accurate. It was pulled in with Abaddon's defeat - whether one attributes it to Abaddon or the Five is a matter of perspective, I'd imagine.

    But yes, that would imply it was at / near the Mouth of Torment location.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dondarrion.2748 said:
    Found another bit concerning the Temple of the Six Gods in a dialogue between a Tormented Soul and Kormir.

    Tormented Soul: "And when Abaddon fell, he pulled it down into Torment. It is now overrun by his Margonite worshipers."

    So, instead of the other Gods sending the temple to the Realm of Torment with Abaddon; he may actually have pulled it in. Could the Crystal Sea shoreline to Elona have been fairly close to where Mouth of Torment is.

    It probably would be. The Mouth of Torment is pretty close to the northern edge of the Desolation, so if you conclude that the Desolation was dry land before Abaddon's defeat then it would be close to the southern shore. Conversely, it's not that far west from Vabbi, so if most of the Desolation was also water, then it could still be an island or peninsula.

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