why hasn't jormag destroyed the world already? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

why hasn't jormag destroyed the world already?

So a few days ago after finishing the new story content a thought came to my mind in why hasn't jormag gone into the mists like years ago and destroyed reality like kralkatorrik tried to do in the mists. because a long time ago Jormag ate some spirits of the wild and they can open portals into the mists so that means jormag can do the same as well. and i understand he is power napping right now but when he was awake when he did that if we can assume kralkatorrik's reaction to being able to do such is what a standard response to a non-altered/properly raised dragon would do. shouldn't he have done mist shanagins a long time ago and ended everything.

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2019

    Some of this is covered in the Norn personal story. We actually do prevent an incursion into the Mist by the Sons of Svanir

    I'm hazy on further details after so long so I'll likely be corrected by more knowledgable folk, but as I understand it Kralk gained the ability from Balth to go in himself. I'm not sure Jormag could enter the Mists with any powers from the Spirits of the Wild or had any inclination to do so. I suspect the focus on it now is the combination of absorbing some new powers post-Kralk and a faltering of the defences of the existing Spirits - we see Raven needs our help greatly to keep Bjora protected and it takes a lot of work from us and the Havroun to restablish control.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • yes but they used a havroun from wolf? i believe and used his power to make the portal and maintain it rather then using only jormag. but jormag should have already had that power himself like kralkatorrik did and went into the mist himself or make portals/grant the ability to make portals to his followers directly with no middle man.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2019

    cjr isn't wrong. If a dragon can get new powers from eating Joko, they should be able to do the same with a Spirit of the Wild, and if anything, the Spirits do more jumping back and forth from the Mists than the gods do.

    It could just be that Jormag doesn't want the world destroyed. Kralkatorrik was at the indiscriminately destructive end of the spectrum, no question there, but other dragons don't necessarily see things that way- take Mordremoth and his talk of being or becoming the world. Jormag might just want the world physically intact for whatever their endgame is.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    Just to be clear: the Elder Dragons don't want to destroy the world. They just want to rule it and consume its magic at will. Just like we can't kill them without destroying Tyria, they can't destroy Tyria without destroying themselves.

    Also, Kralk was driven insane by all the energies he absorbed, most probably by Balthazar since Jormag doesn't seem to be afflicted in the same manner.

    Jormag's moves now are taking advantage of the fact that we can't kill any more Elder Dragons. As referenced in the Living World magazine between LS4 and Grothmar, the surviving Elder Dragons have noted this changed paradigm and are adapting to it faster than we are. Be afraid...

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Just to be clear: the Elder Dragons don't want to destroy the world. They just want to rule it and consume its magic at will. Just like we can't kill them without destroying Tyria, they can't destroy Tyria without destroying themselves.

    To be clear, not all of the Elder Dragons want to destroy the world. Kralkatorrik did. Jormag and Zhaitan do not.

    Kralkatorrik may have been the only Elder Dragon to wish global destruction. While the DSD is a complete enigma, Zhaitan and Jormag both presents the notion of wanting to rule something, while Mordremoth - in my interpretation at least - presented the notion of wanting to replace the world. Primrodus is a bit of an enigma too due to the fact that destroyers don't talk unlike the other minions, and there's been no direct interaction with its mind unlike Kralk, Jormag, and Mordy; but its minions' actions imply that it seeks out genocide of living races. Making it similar to Kralkatorrik.

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Also, Kralk was driven insane by all the energies he absorbed, most probably by Balthazar since Jormag doesn't seem to be afflicted in the same manner.

    Yes, and no. Kralkatorrik was driven insane by consuming all kinds of magic from ley lines over the eons. His torment is not a new thing. Consuming magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar did not create the torment, it merely made it worse for him. The torment's personality is the exact persona presented during Edge of Destiny, when Kralkatorrik rose and Snaff delved into its mind, that takes place 5 years before Zhaitan's death.

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  • i just find it strange that a dragon, regardless of motive who at the time would have been the first dragon to be able to go into the mists a place made of magic stuff didn't try to use it to its advantage in some way. even if it didn't want to indiscriminately eat everything it could have done a lot with that kind of power.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2019

    @cjr.2314 said:
    i just find it strange that a dragon, regardless of motive who at the time would have been the first dragon to be able to go into the mists a place made of magic stuff didn't try to use it to its advantage in some way. even if it didn't want to indiscriminately eat everything it could have done a lot with that kind of power.

    You've got some good insights there. Personally, I believe that all of the Elder Dragons want to destroy Tyria, but that their methods are so dissimilar that their true motive isn't easy to discern.

    Others clearly disagree with this assessment and it's important that we keep an open mind about the highest intent of the Elder Dragons. The most important thing to remember about all of this is that the uncorrupted tend to view the Elder Dragons as destructive. That viewpoint alone suggests that the Elders aren't here to do the planetoid any favors.

    As to why Jormag isn't in the Mists already: I believe that the true form of the Elder Dragons projects into the Mists, that they came from the Mists and are a part of it. Hence, Kralkatorrik's activities are merely the most obvious example of an Elder Dragon revealing an aspect of it's true form. In other words, the Elder Dragons have always been in the Mists. What we perceive of them is what they project into reality.

    I hope this helps.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭

    Why should he destroy the world if he can play the role of the "Nice and beloved king" and savior?

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2019

    @cjr.2314 said:
    i just find it strange that a dragon, regardless of motive who at the time would have been the first dragon to be able to go into the mists a place made of magic stuff didn't try to use it to its advantage in some way. even if it didn't want to indiscriminately eat everything it could have done a lot with that kind of power.

    Playing devil's advocate here- maybe they have? We've seen icebrood coming from Mists portals since launch, after all, even outside of the one PS arc. We knew what Kralkatorrik was doing in the Mists because he immediately set about despoiling the afterlives and pulling reality apart at the seams, but if a dragon with a more subtle touch was active out there, would we necessarily know it?

    I don't expect ANet to lean too heavily on that angle- that sort of indirect action has never been given much place in their writing- but it's the sort of thing I wouldn't be surprised to hear some NPC confirm in passing.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2019

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    You've got some good insights there. Personally, I believe that all of the Elder Dragons want to destroy Tyria, but that their methods are so dissimilar that their true motive isn't easy to discern.

    In all honesty, it wouldn't take much for Primordus to destroy the world, given that it's size and position. They just need to tunnel, tunnel, tunnel and they can collapse the entire surface into countless sinkholes.

    Besides, there's no theorycrafting involved with Kralkatorrik's goal anymore. Open mind or not. While Zhaitan's, Jormag's, and Mordremoth's goals are merely heavily hinted, Kralkatorrik's is laid bare. And even he didn't truly seek global destruction. With Kralkatorrik, while I did say his goal was destruction, that's not fully accurate and is a simplification of what we know, which is simply thus:

    Kralkatorrik: It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.

    Kralkatorrik's goal, as far as our current (and previous?) dragonrise goes, was to end the pain inflicted upon him by consuming too much magic, and he believed he could accomplish this by "destroying everything". His original goal seemed to simply prevent his vision from coming to pass (just not out of fear of death, as Glint surmised).

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    As to why Jormag isn't in the Mists already: I believe that the true form of the Elder Dragons projects into the Mists, that they came from the Mists and are a part of it. Hence, Kralkatorrik's activities are merely the most obvious example of an Elder Dragon revealing an aspect of it's true form. In other words, the Elder Dragons have always been in the Mists. What we perceive of them is what they project into reality.

    Except we have developer confirmation that the Elder Dragons are native to Tyria and have been a part of Tyria (world) since time immemorial. Furthermore, the act of killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists was explicitly stated to be an act that could not occur.

    Furthermore, can you kill a projection? Yet we very much killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth without the involvement of the Mists.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @cjr.2314 said:
    i just find it strange that a dragon, regardless of motive who at the time would have been the first dragon to be able to go into the mists a place made of magic stuff didn't try to use it to its advantage in some way. even if it didn't want to indiscriminately eat everything it could have done a lot with that kind of power.

    Playing devil's advocate here- maybe they have? We've seen icebrood coming from Mists portals since launch, after all, even outside of the one PS arc. We knew what Kralkatorrik was doing in the Mists because he immediately set about despoiling the afterlives and pulling reality apart at the seams, but if a dragon with a more subtle touch was active out there, would we necessarily know it?

    I don't expect ANet to lean too heavily on that angle- that sort of indirect action has never been given much place in their writing- but it's the sort of thing I wouldn't be surprised to hear some NPC confirm in passing.

    I was more or less going to say the same thing. It's also possible that it's taken Jormag time to become accustomed to the ability to manipulate the Mists - Kralkatorrik took 6 years to figure out how to use Zhaitan's death magic, not having used it until Season 4 began. While 150 years is a bit of a long stretch for Jormag getting accustomed to Owl's magic, it's also possible they didn't consider it a possibility, thus didn't bother trying until the power play shifted dramatically.

    It should be noted that, by all evidence, Jormag's influence over the Mists is far below Kralkatorrik's. Jormag doesn't seem capable of entering the Mists personally, only opening up some portals for minions to traverse.

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  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    I mentioned this before in another discussion, but I've always had the impression that the Elder Dragons are sort of like H.P. Lovecraft's monsters in that some portion of them isn't really solid matter as we know it. Some portion of their "substance" is probably the magic which binds their physical forms together. This semi-materiality would at least partly explain how critters the size of mountains -- and especially Primordus -- are able to move about Tyria without the whole world feeling the quakes as they go. And it would also explain their need to consume magic to sustain themselves.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2019

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    I mentioned this before in another discussion, but I've always had the impression that the Elder Dragons are sort of like H.P. Lovecraft's monsters in that some portion of them isn't really solid matter as we know it. Some portion of their "substance" is probably the magic which binds their physical forms together. This semi-materiality would at least partly explain how critters the size of mountains -- and especially Primordus -- are able to move about Tyria without the whole world feeling the quakes as they go. And it would also explain their need to consume magic to sustain themselves.

    theyre more to mythologic chinese dragons that are god likes and had a "spheres of influence".

    They traditionally symbolize potent and auspicious powers, particularly control over water, rainfall, typhoons, and floods. The dragon is also a symbol of power, strength, and good luck for people who are worthy of it in East Asian culture. During the days of Imperial China, the Emperor of China usually used the dragon as a symbol of his imperial strength and power.

    .....

    Chinese dragons were considered to be physically concise. Of the 117 scales, 81 are of the yang essence (positive) while 36 are of the yin essence (negative). Initially, the dragon was benevolent, wise, and just, but the Buddhists introduced the concept of malevolent influence among some dragons. Just as water destroys, they said, so can some dragons destroy via floods, tidal waves, and storms. They suggested that some of the worst floods were believed to have been the result of a mortal upsetting a dragon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cjr.2314 said:
    So a few days ago after finishing the new story content a thought came to my mind in why hasn't jormag gone into the mists like years ago and destroyed reality like kralkatorrik tried to do in the mists. because a long time ago Jormag ate some spirits of the wild and they can open portals into the mists so that means jormag can do the same as well. and i understand he is power napping right now but when he was awake when he did that if we can assume kralkatorrik's reaction to being able to do such is what a standard response to a non-altered/properly raised dragon would do. shouldn't he have done mist shanagins a long time ago and ended everything.

    We don't know for sure if Jormag has that ability but we do know that Jormag is in control of it's senses so while it does have the drive to do what Elder dragons typically do It doesn't have a desire to completely destroy the world like Kralkatorrik did.

    Kralkatorrik was effectively driven insane by conflicting magics he had consumed in recent years, Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar especially who posessed a lot of magic from Primordus, Jormag and the bulk of a Bloodstone when we effectively fed him to Kralkatorrik.
    Kralkatorrik wanted to consume everything because he believed that it would stop the pain and torment he was constantly suffering from which turned out to be almost a seperate entity within him.. like a twisted evil parasite driving him to destroy everyone and everything in his wake.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2019

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    I mentioned this before in another discussion, but I've always had the impression that the Elder Dragons are sort of like H.P. Lovecraft's monsters in that some portion of them isn't really solid matter as we know it. Some portion of their "substance" is probably the magic which binds their physical forms together. This semi-materiality would at least partly explain how critters the size of mountains -- and especially Primordus -- are able to move about Tyria without the whole world feeling the quakes as they go. And it would also explain their need to consume magic to sustain themselves.

    This is more or less established. Some of our original lore on them repeatedly described them as "more magical than physical", and is why Kralkatorrik has an alternative "sandstorm form" which is how we see him during the PoF finale and during S4E4.

    That said, the world does in fact quake when they move... just... not Primordus during Season 3 for some oddity. I mean, the Great Destroyer acting up alone caused earthquakes in Tyria, Elona, and even Cantha. When Kralkatorrik woke up, the Edge of Destiny novel had a nice description of how its awakening - not its path south - was felt with earthquakes and storms in the Black Citadel and even Rata Sum:

    Tyria should have known. The signs of the dragonrise were everywhere.
    The earthquake that shook Rata Sum.
    The tidal wave that carried ships into the streets of Lion's Arch.
    The geysers that erupted in the tundra beyond Hoelbrak.
    The pall that hung over the Black Citadel.
    Tyria had been wracked by such terrible birth pangs before.
    The people should have guessed that a dragon was rising.

    Though part of me sometimes wonder if this is meant to reference all of the Elder Dragons' rising, and not just Kralkatorrik, but there was none near Rata Sum (unless that's EotN timeline references). Still, it denotes that the awakening of the Elder Dragons results in earthquakes and storms, even far from where they rise. And in Grothmar Wardown, we see the afteraffects of Kralkatorrik rising - Longeye's Stead was collapsed in a landslide, and the top of Blood Keep was torn off in a violent storm with quick repairs of metal (thus giving the unique brick + metal aesthetic).

    And other movements/awakenings also caused massive cataclysmic events here and there. Like Jormag causing a 4 year long blizzard before forcing the norn south, and shattering the Shiverpeaks when doing so.

    Just... not Primordus' movement in Season 3... for some reason. That just resulted in displaced magic and Priory doubting Primordus was moving despite that one guy's claims.

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