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Lower Improvisation Cooldown?


Exitus.3297

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Hey Everyone,

I noticed that the cooldown for Improvisation at the end of the Deadly Arts tree is 20 seconds. Obviously, this wasn't an issue before, but now that the cooldown on Swipe is 17 seconds when paired up with Sleight of Hand in Trickery, Improvisation just feels a bit janky. Assuming the Thief is using Swipe every time it is off cooldown, they are only benefitting from the trait every other Swipe instead of every Swipe... Unless they decide to wait another 3 seconds.

The only reason I can imagine the Cooldown was put in place to begin with was that it happened to line up with Steal's lowest cooldown, and that it might have kept Deadeyes in line since their Deadeye's Mark can reset.

I don't know what else to really say about it. It just feels really weird.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Asking for a thief buff,on these forums?Silly man!

I wouldn't even really call it a buff... I guess in a way it would be a tiny one, but I don't think it would be that big.

I see it more of a quality of life change since the problem with it (at least imho) is that it just feels really weird, but not necessarily really weak.

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I think that for Thief to be using Steal (Swipe) everytime the moment its off CD is almost impossible to happen. Especially since it would have to be in a long consistent fight which usually doesn't happen for thief. If he/she is using it off CD then they're doing it wrong. Besides 3 second is a very small timespan to wait for.It practically never happens to me and when it does its because I played badly and deserve that as a result for my lack of timing/etc.We cant all be Warrior and have every other lethal mistake we make go unpunished.

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@Alatar.7364 said:I think that for Thief to be using Steal (Swipe) everytime the moment its off CD is almost impossible to happen. Especially since it would have to be in a long consistent fight which usually doesn't happen for thief. If he/she is using it off CD then they're doing it wrong. Besides 3 second is a very small timespan to wait for.It practically never happens to me and when it does its because I played badly and deserve that as a result for my lack of timing/etc.We cant all be Warrior and have every other lethal mistake we make go unpunished.

You're not wrong, but I do sometimes find myself waiting for it to come off cooldown if I'm in sPvP and I just rotated from somewhere where I used it recently and I'm ready to gank again. Maybe there are other niche situations like duels in custom matches where it could have been handy. But it's as you say: that's rarely the case.

I guess a good way to put it is Daredevils probably shouldn't be using Swipe every time its off cooldown so it shouldn't be that much of a problem, but it would be nice to know that Improvisation works in the rare situations where they might have to. Not really a big deal. Just thought it seemed janky.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Exitus.3297 said:Hey Everyone,

I noticed that the cooldown for Improvisation at the end of the Deadly Arts tree is 20 seconds. Obviously, this wasn't an issue before, but now that the cooldown on Swipe is 17 seconds when paired up with Sleight of Hand in Trickery, Improvisation just feels a bit janky. Assuming the Thief is using Swipe every time it is off cooldown, they are only benefitting from the trait every other Swipe instead of every Swipe... Unless they decide to wait another 3 seconds.

The only reason I can imagine the Cooldown was put in place to begin with was that it happened to line up with Steal's lowest cooldown, and that it might have kept Deadeyes in line since their Deadeye's Mark can reset.

I don't know what else to really say about it. It just feels really weird.

In practice, I only Steal/Swipe every 25-30s regardless of cooldown. Only because the heals from Mug is more important than the stolen skills I get or the pathetic random chance of one of my utility skill will reset. To be honest, it's not worth taking. The power level of Improv is no longer at the GM level. It used to have a potential of resetting the heal, 3 utilities and elite skills (5 skills) if they are all of the same kind every 20s. Now, we only get one out of 3 utility skills. It's sucks so bad.

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Though I do find the idea of thief receiving a buff being funny, I do agree that they should reduce the cooldown of Improvisation as QoL change.

Frankly speaking, it doesn't even make sense for this skill to have an internal cooldown anymore. Sword no longer reset cooldown of steal.

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@SoulSin.5682 said:Though I do find the idea of thief receiving a buff being funny, I do agree that they should reduce the cooldown of Improvisation as QoL change.

Frankly speaking, it doesn't even make sense for this skill to have an internal cooldown anymore. Sword no longer reset cooldown of steal.

Frankly speaking, it doesn't even make sense as a GM trait anymore.

There, fixed it.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:Hey Everyone,

I noticed that the cooldown for Improvisation at the end of the Deadly Arts tree is 20 seconds. Obviously, this wasn't an issue before, but now that the cooldown on Swipe is 17 seconds when paired up with Sleight of Hand in Trickery, Improvisation just feels a bit janky. Assuming the Thief is using Swipe every time it is off cooldown, they are only benefitting from the trait every
other
Swipe instead of every Swipe... Unless they decide to wait another 3 seconds.

The only reason I can imagine the Cooldown was put in place to begin with was that it happened to line up with Steal's lowest cooldown, and that it might have kept Deadeyes in line since their Deadeye's Mark can reset.

I don't know what else to really say about it. It just feels really weird.

In practice, I only Steal/Swipe every 25-30s regardless of cooldown. Only because the heals from Mug is more important than the stolen skills I get or the pathetic random chance of one of my utility skill will reset. To be honest, it's not worth taking. The power level of Improv is no longer at the GM level. It used to have a potential of resetting the heal, 3 utilities and elite skills (5 skills) if they are all of the same kind every 20s. Now, we only get one out of 3 utility skills. It's sucks so bad.

It has lower highs and higher lows now. I actually see it going off more often now than I did before. They traded that potential to set off more than 1 skill (but probably not) with the guarantee that something on your utility bar is getting reset, but it may not always be something that is on cooldown at the time. I use my utility skills much more aggressively now with the expectation that something is coming back, not the hope that something is. But that's just me. You do you.

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@Exitus.3297 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:Hey Everyone,

I noticed that the cooldown for Improvisation at the end of the Deadly Arts tree is 20 seconds. Obviously, this wasn't an issue before, but now that the cooldown on Swipe is 17 seconds when paired up with Sleight of Hand in Trickery, Improvisation just feels a bit janky. Assuming the Thief is using Swipe every time it is off cooldown, they are only benefitting from the trait every
other
Swipe instead of every Swipe... Unless they decide to wait another 3 seconds.

The only reason I can imagine the Cooldown was put in place to begin with was that it happened to line up with Steal's lowest cooldown, and that it might have kept Deadeyes in line since their Deadeye's Mark can reset.

I don't know what else to really say about it. It just feels really weird.

In practice, I only Steal/Swipe every 25-30s regardless of cooldown. Only because the heals from Mug is more important than the stolen skills I get or the pathetic random chance of one of my utility skill will reset. To be honest, it's not worth taking. The power level of Improv is no longer at the GM level. It used to have a potential of resetting the heal, 3 utilities and elite skills (5 skills) if they are all of the same kind every 20s. Now, we only get one out of 3 utility skills. It's sucks so bad.

It has lower highs and higher lows now. I actually see it going off more often now than I did before. They traded that potential to set off more than 1 skill (but probably not) with the guarantee that something on your utility bar is getting reset, but it may not always be something that is on cooldown at the time. I use my utility skills much more aggressively now with the expectation that something is coming back, not the hope that something is. But that's just me. You do you.

So you're saying that you'll pick this garbage of a GM trait over Potent poison and Executioner. Yeah, you do you.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:Hey Everyone,

I noticed that the cooldown for Improvisation at the end of the Deadly Arts tree is 20 seconds. Obviously, this wasn't an issue before, but now that the cooldown on Swipe is 17 seconds when paired up with Sleight of Hand in Trickery, Improvisation just feels a bit janky. Assuming the Thief is using Swipe every time it is off cooldown, they are only benefitting from the trait every
other
Swipe instead of every Swipe... Unless they decide to wait another 3 seconds.

The only reason I can imagine the Cooldown was put in place to begin with was that it happened to line up with Steal's lowest cooldown, and that it might have kept Deadeyes in line since their Deadeye's Mark can reset.

I don't know what else to really say about it. It just feels really weird.

In practice, I only Steal/Swipe every 25-30s regardless of cooldown. Only because the heals from Mug is more important than the stolen skills I get or the pathetic random chance of one of my utility skill will reset. To be honest, it's not worth taking. The power level of Improv is no longer at the GM level. It used to have a potential of resetting the heal, 3 utilities and elite skills (5 skills) if they are all of the same kind every 20s. Now, we only get one out of 3 utility skills. It's sucks so bad.

It has lower highs and higher lows now. I actually see it going off more often now than I did before. They traded that potential to set off more than 1 skill (but probably not) with the guarantee that something on your utility bar is getting reset, but it may not always be something that is on cooldown at the time. I use my utility skills much more aggressively now with the expectation that something is coming back, not the hope that something is. But that's just me. You do you.

So you're saying that you'll pick this garbage of a GM trait over Potent poison and Executioner. Yeah, you do you.

Thanks for your pleasant input. I'll be sure to keep it in mind.

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@Exitus.3297 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:Hey Everyone,

I noticed that the cooldown for Improvisation at the end of the Deadly Arts tree is 20 seconds. Obviously, this wasn't an issue before, but now that the cooldown on Swipe is 17 seconds when paired up with Sleight of Hand in Trickery, Improvisation just feels a bit janky. Assuming the Thief is using Swipe every time it is off cooldown, they are only benefitting from the trait every
other
Swipe instead of every Swipe... Unless they decide to wait another 3 seconds.

The only reason I can imagine the Cooldown was put in place to begin with was that it happened to line up with Steal's lowest cooldown, and that it might have kept Deadeyes in line since their Deadeye's Mark can reset.

I don't know what else to really say about it. It just feels really weird.

In practice, I only Steal/Swipe every 25-30s regardless of cooldown. Only because the heals from Mug is more important than the stolen skills I get or the pathetic random chance of one of my utility skill will reset. To be honest, it's not worth taking. The power level of Improv is no longer at the GM level. It used to have a potential of resetting the heal, 3 utilities and elite skills (5 skills) if they are all of the same kind every 20s. Now, we only get one out of 3 utility skills. It's sucks so bad.

It has lower highs and higher lows now. I actually see it going off more often now than I did before. They traded that potential to set off more than 1 skill (but probably not) with the guarantee that something on your utility bar is getting reset, but it may not always be something that is on cooldown at the time. I use my utility skills much more aggressively now with the expectation that something is coming back, not the hope that something is. But that's just me. You do you.

So you're saying that you'll pick this garbage of a GM trait over Potent poison and Executioner. Yeah, you do you.

Thanks for your pleasant input. I'll be sure to keep it in mind.

And you should. Unless you're stealing every 20s, most of your utility skills will naturally go out of cooldown on their own. Improv was worthy of GM slot when it can reset an Elite skill that has a long CD (i.e. Thieves Guild). I can't believe that you're trying to defend this botched cosmetic surgery.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:Hey Everyone,

I noticed that the cooldown for Improvisation at the end of the Deadly Arts tree is 20 seconds. Obviously, this wasn't an issue before, but now that the cooldown on Swipe is 17 seconds when paired up with Sleight of Hand in Trickery, Improvisation just feels a bit janky. Assuming the Thief is using Swipe every time it is off cooldown, they are only benefitting from the trait every
other
Swipe instead of every Swipe... Unless they decide to wait another 3 seconds.

The only reason I can imagine the Cooldown was put in place to begin with was that it happened to line up with Steal's lowest cooldown, and that it might have kept Deadeyes in line since their Deadeye's Mark can reset.

I don't know what else to really say about it. It just feels really weird.

In practice, I only Steal/Swipe every 25-30s regardless of cooldown. Only because the heals from Mug is more important than the stolen skills I get or the pathetic random chance of one of my utility skill will reset. To be honest, it's not worth taking. The power level of Improv is no longer at the GM level. It used to have a potential of resetting the heal, 3 utilities and elite skills (5 skills) if they are all of the same kind every 20s. Now, we only get one out of 3 utility skills. It's sucks so bad.

It has lower highs and higher lows now. I actually see it going off more often now than I did before. They traded that potential to set off more than 1 skill (but probably not) with the guarantee that something on your utility bar is getting reset, but it may not always be something that is on cooldown at the time. I use my utility skills much more aggressively now with the expectation that something is coming back, not the hope that something is. But that's just me. You do you.

So you're saying that you'll pick this garbage of a GM trait over Potent poison and Executioner. Yeah, you do you.

Thanks for your pleasant input. I'll be sure to keep it in mind.

And you should. Unless you're stealing every 20s, most of your utility skills will naturally go out of cooldown on their own. Improv was worthy of GM slot when it can reset an Elite skill that has a long CD (i.e. Thieves Guild). I can't believe that you're trying to defend this botched cosmetic surgery.

Depends why you're using it; the main reason I chose improv in the past was the extra stolen item, which on daredevil is very helpful in outnumbered fights with a mesmer present and on deadeye is another source of stealth with 5 malice which made not taking SA more bearable. The reset on utility skills was always too RnG for me to rely on because it was linked to utility type, although I agree with you that the other GS traits are often better these days depending on your build.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:1) Remove ICD2) Make it always reset something on CD. None of this 'reset the CD of something that wasn't cooling down' stuff. This would at least let people try and force certain skills to reset and create more interesting play.

I agree, but...what would you do about DE double stealing?

I would remove quickness from spvp.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:1) Remove ICD2) Make it always reset something on CD. None of this 'reset the CD of something that wasn't cooling down' stuff. This would at least let people try and force certain skills to reset and create more interesting play.

I agree, but...what would you do about DE double stealing?

I would remove quickness from spvp.

Ouch!

EDIT: By the way, you do know that double stealing is not just about the Quickness right?

DE Condi build: Steal ->Binding -> Mercy -> Steal -> Binding/Mercy (whichever refreshed first).

Heck you can even Steal ->Mercy ad infinitum.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:1) Remove ICD2) Make it always reset something on CD. None of this 'reset the CD of something that wasn't cooling down' stuff. This would at least let people try and force certain skills to reset and create more interesting play.

I agree, but...what would you do about DE double stealing?

I would remove quickness from spvp.

Ouch!

EDIT: By the way, you do know that double stealing is not just about the Quickness right?

DE Condi build: Steal ->Binding -> Mercy -> Steal -> Binding/Mercy (whichever refreshed first).

Heck you can even Steal ->Mercy ad infinitum.

Set Improv to inherit steal's cooldown but not the mechanics that influence steal (so it would change w/traits reducing steal CD, but wouldn't like...give boons and stuff xD)? This would have the same effect as removing the cooldown for most builds while ensuring Mercy could not be abused.

For DE in particular, this is not a massive problem for other thief mechanics that interact with steal, as it would be for other thief builds because Mark has a cast time and can be evaded/w-e.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:1) Remove ICD2) Make it always reset something on CD. None of this 'reset the CD of something that wasn't cooling down' stuff. This would at least let people try and force certain skills to reset and create more interesting play.

I agree, but...what would you do about DE double stealing?

I would remove quickness from spvp.

Ouch!

EDIT: By the way, you do know that double stealing is not just about the Quickness right?

DE Condi build: Steal ->Binding -> Mercy -> Steal -> Binding/Mercy (whichever refreshed first).

Heck you can even Steal ->Mercy ad infinitum.

Set Improv to inherit steal's cooldown but not the mechanics that influence steal (so it would change w/traits reducing steal CD, but wouldn't like...give boons and stuff xD)? This would have the same effect as removing the cooldown for most builds while ensuring Mercy could not be abused.

That's just a horrible idea. For the sake of Improv, you want to nerf Mug (no dmg, no heal), Sleight (no daze), Serpent Touch (no poison), Bewildering (no confuse), BQoBK (no quickness), etc.

No, thank you. Just delete Improvisation please.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:1) Remove ICD2) Make it always reset something on CD. None of this 'reset the CD of something that wasn't cooling down' stuff. This would at least let people try and force certain skills to reset and create more interesting play.

I agree, but...what would you do about DE double stealing?

I would remove quickness from spvp.

Ouch!

EDIT: By the way, you do know that double stealing is not just about the Quickness right?

DE Condi build: Steal ->Binding -> Mercy -> Steal -> Binding/Mercy (whichever refreshed first).

Heck you can even Steal ->Mercy ad infinitum.

Set Improv to inherit steal's cooldown but not the mechanics that influence steal (so it would change w/traits reducing steal CD, but wouldn't like...give boons and stuff xD)? This would have the same effect as removing the cooldown for most builds while ensuring Mercy could not be abused.

That's just a horrible idea. For the sake of Improv, you want to nerf Mug (no dmg, no heal), Sleight (no daze), Serpent Touch (no poison), Bewildering (no confuse), BQoBK (no quickness), etc.

No, thank you. Just delete Improvisation please.

How does matching Improv's cooldown to steal impact mug/sleight/serp/bewilder/bqobk?

Improv. Inherit. Steal. Cooldown. That second part was just to clarify that improv proccing would not proc steal-related traits - but you could still cast steal and get them anyway O.o

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:1) Remove ICD2) Make it always reset something on CD. None of this 'reset the CD of something that wasn't cooling down' stuff. This would at least let people try and force certain skills to reset and create more interesting play.

I agree, but...what would you do about DE double stealing?

I would remove quickness from spvp.

Ouch!

EDIT: By the way, you do know that double stealing is not just about the Quickness right?

DE Condi build: Steal ->Binding -> Mercy -> Steal -> Binding/Mercy (whichever refreshed first).

Heck you can even Steal ->Mercy ad infinitum.

Set Improv to inherit steal's cooldown but not the mechanics that influence steal (so it would change w/traits reducing steal CD, but wouldn't like...give boons and stuff xD)? This would have the same effect as removing the cooldown for most builds while ensuring Mercy could not be abused.

That's just a horrible idea. For the sake of Improv, you want to nerf Mug (no dmg, no heal), Sleight (no daze), Serpent Touch (no poison), Bewildering (no confuse), BQoBK (no quickness), etc.

No, thank you. Just delete Improvisation please.

How does matching Improv's cooldown to steal impact mug/sleight/serp/bewilder/bqobk?

Improv. Inherit. Steal. Cooldown. That second part was just to clarify that improv proccing would not proc steal-related traits - but you could still cast steal and get them anyway O.o

Review your post. You said: "Set Improv to inherit steal's cooldown but not the mechanics that influence steal (so it would change w/traits reducing steal CD, but wouldn't like...give boons and stuff xD)"

I wasn't responding on the matching CD, I'm responding to the the trade off.

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