How to address power creep without gutting individual skills and traits. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How to address power creep without gutting individual skills and traits.

So the fabled Q1 balance update that is supposed to address powercreep in the competitive modes is stated to:

  • Reduce hard CC damage
  • address condi spam
  • reduce damage across the board

I fear that this will just end up utterly gutting specific traits and skills. So how about an alternative? What are your thoughts on the below? Also, if any Devs do read this then strongly consider these ideas and what discussion may follow.

Instead of gutting scaling like with what was done with Rampage why not put a cap on the added damage players can stack in competitive game modes? Its not at all difficult to stack up to 700% damage on a Soulbeast for instance.

Put a cap on extra damage, including critical damage, at 300% damage. Most of this would come from critical damage, so this would open up traits for use as once you hit that 300% mark then anything else is useless unless it offers other things. This also curbs the toxic amount of DPS some builds can put out and create an opportunity for more build diversity.

For condi, put a cap on the amount of condition stacks that players can be inflicted with. This means not more than X stacks of Bleed, X stacks of Poison, X Stacks of Burning, etc. This is not X total stacks of any condition, but X stacks per condition. I'm not certain what that cap should be, perhaps it should be split between PvP and WvW but the amount of condi removal would have to decrease to compensate regardless.

I think 10 stacks per condition max would work, but as I said I'm not sure whether or not that would be appropriate. Maybe the right number is 15, or 20, or lower at 5.

Separately for WvW something that I think would work would be to limit the amount of damage packets a player can be inflicted by per second, or limit the amount of other players that can hit another player per second. This would limit the need to ball up on the pin to avoid damage.

Another possible idea for WvW to create healthier competition in outnumbered fights would be to increase target caps on skills and abilities to allow an individual player to fight against a larger number of foes.

Thoughts? Other ideas? Tweaks you would make to the above?

Comments

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is always a risk that if we lower the dmg we are going straight back to bunker meta.

    Not saying that there is something wrong with your idea tho.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There is always a risk that if we lower the dmg we are going straight back to bunker meta.

    Not saying that there is something wrong with your idea tho.

    But they're reducing healing too? Hopefully only self-healing, though..

    They want to make stats like Vitality and Toughness more important. The game was designed around active play, but the problem is DPS is largely a passive play. Sure, with a proper rotation you can hit something like 30k on most classes, but even without a rotation and just autoattack you can easily exceed 10k with just the right build for literally doing nothing but whacking things.

    Like I got a 19k burn tick on my Guardian in WvW the other day for just whirling on Greatsword, and she's not even full glass.

    Its the same for both Power and Condition Damage. Condis in theory have more active play since they don't have alot of hard %based bonuses, but these builds also stack Vulnerability easier which makes it roughly the same.

    On top of this the prevaleance of active play is actually what caused damage to explode, because when you're constantly blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. the only way you can kill anything is if you hit like a truck when your hits do land, which has heavily contributed to the one-shot and burst metas currently in play. This is yet another point of many that must be addressed (hard CC is a part of this..).

    Its not about one-shot/burst or bunker, its about finding a middleground that works for most people, to have an average fight.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There is always a risk that if we lower the dmg we are going straight back to bunker meta.

    Not saying that there is something wrong with your idea tho.

    But they're reducing healing too? Hopefully only self-healing, though..

    They want to make stats like Vitality and Toughness more important. The game was designed around active play, but the problem is DPS is largely a passive play. Sure, with a proper rotation you can hit something like 30k on most classes, but even without a rotation and just autoattack you can easily exceed 10k with just the right build for literally doing nothing but whacking things.

    Like I got a 19k burn tick on my Guardian in WvW the other day for just whirling on Greatsword, and she's not even full glass.

    Its the same for both Power and Condition Damage. Condis in theory have more active play since they don't have alot of hard %based bonuses, but these builds also stack Vulnerability easier which makes it roughly the same.

    On top of this the prevaleance of active play is actually what caused damage to explode, because when you're constantly blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. the only way you can kill anything is if you hit like a truck when your hits do land, which has heavily contributed to the one-shot and burst metas currently in play. This is yet another point of many that must be addressed (hard CC is a part of this..).

    Its not about one-shot/burst or bunker, its about finding a middleground that works for most people, to have an average fight.

    Wouldn't having a damage modifiers/condi stack cap help achieve that though?

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There is always a risk that if we lower the dmg we are going straight back to bunker meta.

    Not saying that there is something wrong with your idea tho.

    This suggestion assumes that healing and boon output is also addressed.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2019

    I’m gonna try to be very honest here.

    You’ve got your thinking cap on backwards. Changes in numbers alone (or adding obscure restrictions) is not going to fix balance. There is a reason the game has been like this for years, patch after patch after patch there’s always something that’s OP or hasn’t been nerfed enough until it gets nerfed so hard that it’s unplayable.

    I suggest looking into my post history and reading through a post called “why diversity is more important than balance.”

    It’s not the easiest thread to follow, but it is an in depth discussion about the implication that diversity has on balance of the game.

    To TLDR the discussion, it surrounds the basic definition of what balance actually is, which is that in order to achieve perfect balance, all classes must be exactly the same, and must all have the same skills and traits. You should quickly realize that perfect balance is a false prophet.

    The opposite of “exactly the same” is that all classes/players should be completely different, and completely unique. This is called heterogeneity, which is a direct consequence of having diversity. Diversity by proxy is a force that creates competition via adaptation, and this competition is in itself a form of balance.

    So the idea proposed in the thread is that in order to get balance, players need to have the build options to be more unique. There’s a bit more to the problem which has to deal with scale invariance, but you can read that issue in the thread also.

    So essentially, dialing knobs, switching buttons aren’t going to solve these balance issues. It’s been like this for years and the problems only become more obfuscated with each balance patch, and the classes that were meta at the beginning of POF are STILL meta after hundreds of balance changes. The issue is more fundamental...less intuitive.

    Adding obscure caps and limits only serve to reduce build diversity. Just look at SPVP as a real example of those kinds of design choices. It’s 10x more toxic, boring and less fun because of how restricting the build choices are, to the point where you HAVE to play a particular class and particular build to actually climb leaderboards.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I’m gonna try to be very honest here.

    You’ve got your thinking cap on backwards. Changes in numbers alone (or adding obscure restrictions) is not going to fix balance. There is a reason the game has been like this for years, patch after patch after patch there’s always something that’s OP or hasn’t been nerfed enough until it gets nerfed so hard that it’s unplayable.

    I suggest looking into my post history and reading through a post called “why diversity is more important than balance.”

    It’s not the easiest thread to follow, but it is an in depth discussion about the implication that diversity has on balance of the game.

    To TLDR the discussion, it surrounds the basic definition of what balance actually is, which is that in order to achieve perfect balance, all classes must be exactly the same, and must all have the same skills and traits. You should quickly realize that perfect balance is a false prophet.

    The opposite of “exactly the same” is that all classes/players should be completely different, and completely unique. This is called heterogeneity, which is a direct consequence of having diversity. Diversity by proxy is a force that creates competition via adaptation, and this competition is in itself a form of balance.

    So the idea proposed in the thread is that in order to get balance, players need to have the build options to be more unique. There’s a bit more to the problem which has to deal with scale invariance, but you can read that issue in the thread also.

    So essentially, dialing knobs, switching buttons aren’t going to solve these balance issues. It’s been like this for years and the problems only become more obfuscated with each balance patch, and the classes that were meta at the beginning of POF are STILL meta after hundreds of balance changes. The issue is more fundamental...less intuitive.

    Adding obscure caps and limits only serve to reduce build diversity. Just look at SPVP as a real example of those kinds of design choices. It’s 10x more toxic, boring and less fun because of how restricting the build choices are, to the point where you HAVE to play a particular class and particular build to actually climb leaderboards.

    Yes, but limiting damage modifiers with a cap would allow for more diversity because there will be less need to take damage modifier traits thus opening up other options that would have been ignored otherwise.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I’m gonna try to be very honest here.

    You’ve got your thinking cap on backwards. Changes in numbers alone (or adding obscure restrictions) is not going to fix balance. There is a reason the game has been like this for years, patch after patch after patch there’s always something that’s OP or hasn’t been nerfed enough until it gets nerfed so hard that it’s unplayable.

    I suggest looking into my post history and reading through a post called “why diversity is more important than balance.”

    It’s not the easiest thread to follow, but it is an in depth discussion about the implication that diversity has on balance of the game.

    To TLDR the discussion, it surrounds the basic definition of what balance actually is, which is that in order to achieve perfect balance, all classes must be exactly the same, and must all have the same skills and traits. You should quickly realize that perfect balance is a false prophet.

    The opposite of “exactly the same” is that all classes/players should be completely different, and completely unique. This is called heterogeneity, which is a direct consequence of having diversity. Diversity by proxy is a force that creates competition via adaptation, and this competition is in itself a form of balance.

    So the idea proposed in the thread is that in order to get balance, players need to have the build options to be more unique. There’s a bit more to the problem which has to deal with scale invariance, but you can read that issue in the thread also.

    So essentially, dialing knobs, switching buttons aren’t going to solve these balance issues. It’s been like this for years and the problems only become more obfuscated with each balance patch, and the classes that were meta at the beginning of POF are STILL meta after hundreds of balance changes. The issue is more fundamental...less intuitive.

    Adding obscure caps and limits only serve to reduce build diversity. Just look at SPVP as a real example of those kinds of design choices. It’s 10x more toxic, boring and less fun because of how restricting the build choices are, to the point where you HAVE to play a particular class and particular build to actually climb leaderboards.

    Yes, but limiting damage modifiers with a cap would allow for more diversity because there will be less need to take damage modifier traits thus opening up other options that would have been ignored otherwise.

    This is a misconception about the concept. Adding a cap in the manner you described will only serve to shift the availability of choices. Traits you once picked are now no longer picked, in favor of another trait and you trade one for the other out of necessity rather than choice.

    The more caps you put in place, the more trait choices are picked out of necessity, until only a single set of traits fit the criteria set by your limitations. This is just the nature of adding limits.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I’m gonna try to be very honest here.

    You’ve got your thinking cap on backwards. Changes in numbers alone (or adding obscure restrictions) is not going to fix balance. There is a reason the game has been like this for years, patch after patch after patch there’s always something that’s OP or hasn’t been nerfed enough until it gets nerfed so hard that it’s unplayable.

    I suggest looking into my post history and reading through a post called “why diversity is more important than balance.”

    It’s not the easiest thread to follow, but it is an in depth discussion about the implication that diversity has on balance of the game.

    To TLDR the discussion, it surrounds the basic definition of what balance actually is, which is that in order to achieve perfect balance, all classes must be exactly the same, and must all have the same skills and traits. You should quickly realize that perfect balance is a false prophet.

    The opposite of “exactly the same” is that all classes/players should be completely different, and completely unique. This is called heterogeneity, which is a direct consequence of having diversity. Diversity by proxy is a force that creates competition via adaptation, and this competition is in itself a form of balance.

    So the idea proposed in the thread is that in order to get balance, players need to have the build options to be more unique. There’s a bit more to the problem which has to deal with scale invariance, but you can read that issue in the thread also.

    So essentially, dialing knobs, switching buttons aren’t going to solve these balance issues. It’s been like this for years and the problems only become more obfuscated with each balance patch, and the classes that were meta at the beginning of POF are STILL meta after hundreds of balance changes. The issue is more fundamental...less intuitive.

    Adding obscure caps and limits only serve to reduce build diversity. Just look at SPVP as a real example of those kinds of design choices. It’s 10x more toxic, boring and less fun because of how restricting the build choices are, to the point where you HAVE to play a particular class and particular build to actually climb leaderboards.

    Yes, but limiting damage modifiers with a cap would allow for more diversity because there will be less need to take damage modifier traits thus opening up other options that would have been ignored otherwise.

    This is a misconception about the concept. Adding a cap in the manner you described will only serve to shift the availability of choices. Traits you once picked are now no longer picked, in favor of another trait and you trade one for the other out of necessity rather than choice.

    The more caps you put in place, the more trait choices are picked out of necessity, until only a single set of traits fit the criteria set by your limitations. This is just the nature of adding limits.

    Rather nihilistic of you. If Berseker's Power or Bloody Roar were the only added damage modifiers needed for a Berserker to reach a damage modifier cap then you would see more Berserker's with MMR or Merciless Hammer or Eternal Champion. Looks more diversity from over here.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2019

    Let me propose an example

    Let’s impose a limit that says you can only take 1 damage modifier on your class which has some arbitrary number of modifier traits, and all damage modifiers give you 15% more damage on said class.

    So at the start you have options to pick whatever mod on whatever tree you like...but once you select one of them as your damage mod, every other trait that is a damage modifier are automatically rendered useless.

    This is similar to what I like to call “signet syndrome.” You have a grandmaster trait that provides some benefit only to signets. This means that if you don’t run signets on your build, then this trait is rendered useless, so for every other build that doesn’t run signets, then they only have 2 GM choices rather than 3.

    So if warrior has 10 damage mod traits, then once you pick one of them, the other 9 are useless, and in those traitlines you have only 8 options (or less) to pick from instead of 9. Thus, build diversity goes down.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    Let me propose an example

    Let’s impose a limit that says you can only take 1 damage modifier on your class which has some arbitrary number of modifier traits, and all damage modifiers give you 15% more damage on said class.

    So at the start you have options to pick whatever mod on whatever tree you like...but once you select one of them as your damage mod, every other trait that is a damage modifier are automatically rendered useless.

    This is similar to what I like to call “signet syndrome.” You have a grandmaster trait that provides some benefit only to signets. This means that if you don’t run signets on your build, then this trait is rendered useless, so for every other build that doesn’t run signets, then they only have 2 GM choices rather than 3.

    So if warrior has 10 damage mod traits, then once you pick one of them, the other 9 are useless, and in those traitlines you have only 8 options (or less) to pick from instead of 9. Thus, build diversity goes down.

    Yet most traits do many things, like Merciless Hammer and Peak Performance.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2019

    in the past I said damage % modifiers should be nerfed, but in reality not a lot of classes can stack them up past 30% (deadeye and soulbeast are the biggest offenders here). I think the main culprits are ez 25 might, quickness uptime, and the simple uselessness of armor in some cases. a large problem that I never really noticed are all the stat boost traits getting added into the game. soulbeast and reaper are notable offenders, but fa ele takes the cake.

    look at this garbage. you can stack up to 1000 ferocity and 300 power. I mean kitten. regardless of viability this isn't good for the game.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGA4otouUB-z5ICA
    other notable meta classes that take advantage of these traits are spellbreaker, deadeye, reaper, and firebrand. so basically everyone.

    condi caps on durations/ stacks should exist to some degree, also bigger caps on boons. it would be interesting to try out a cap on damage packets per sec while raising the aoe cap on some skills. its bogus to get hit by 50 people and be able to only hit 5 back. the lack of options for smaller groups to deal with bigger ones is the biggest problem in wvw atm. other ones like population imbalance would take care of itself if aoe was fixed.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    in the past I said damage % modifiers should be nerfed, but in reality not a lot of classes can stack them up past 30% (deadeye and soulbeast are the biggest offenders here). I think the main culprits are ez 25 might, quickness uptime, and the simple uselessness of armor in some cases. a large problem that I never really noticed are all the stat boost traits getting added into the game. soulbeast and reaper are notable offenders, but fa ele takes the cake.

    look at this garbage. you can stack up to 1000 ferocity and 300 power. I mean kitten. regardless of viability this isn't good for the game.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGA4otouUB-z5ICA
    other notable meta classes that take advantage of these traits are spellbreaker, deadeye, reaper, and firebrand. so basically everyone.

    condi caps on durations/ stacks should exist to some degree, also bigger caps on boons. it would be interesting to try out a cap on damage packets per sec while raising the aoe cap on some skills. its bogus to get hit by 50 people and be able to only hit 5 back. the lack of options for smaller groups to deal with bigger ones is the biggest problem in wvw atm. other ones like population imbalance would take care of itself if aoe was fixed.

    I agree that the stat stacking on certain classes is out of line as well. There should be a target cap, but the inverse should also be the case, a cap on how many others that can hit an individual, or hits per second. I do not think life steal should count there, it's small and would push life steal out of builds.

  • I am not scared if the class that I play takes a hit. I could care less about the gutting of skills and traits as long as the flow and health of the game is sound. Contrary to popular belief, nerfs are good for games. They keep powercreep in check. That being said, I agree with you on damage caps.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

    Why?

    Would PvE become unplayable if it makes classes unable to solo raid bosses? The game becomes too hard if it takes 25s instead of 20s to take down 5 veterans at once? If you only do 27,000 dps against that legendary bounty instead of 30,000 it becomes impossible to bring down with 30 players?

    The powercreep has heavily affected PvE as well over the years and everything has just become full dps or go home, that's how easy it is nowadays. People just want to kill mobs as fast as possible. They dont have to rebalance kitten even if they nerf damage overall. The only ones that will cry is the dps counter peepers that will be horrified to a number lower than the previous number and probably proclaim the game is dead.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

    Why?

    Would PvE become unplayable if it makes classes unable to solo raid bosses? The game becomes too hard if it takes 25s instead of 20s to take down 5 veterans at once? If you only do 27,000 dps against that legendary bounty instead of 30,000 it becomes impossible to bring down with 30 players?

    The powercreep has heavily affected PvE as well over the years and everything has just become full dps or go home, that's how easy it is nowadays. People just want to kill mobs as fast as possible. They dont have to rebalance kitten even if they nerf damage overall. The only ones that will cry is the dps counter peepers that will be horrified to a number lower than the previous number and probably proclaim the game is dead.

    At the same time there are DPS checks in raids. They would have to alter those if modifier caps are put into PvE. Not against it in principle, but there are places were maxing damage is needed, but others where a modifier cap would be healthy.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2019

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

    Why?

    Would PvE become unplayable if it makes classes unable to solo raid bosses? The game becomes too hard if it takes 25s instead of 20s to take down 5 veterans at once? If you only do 27,000 dps against that legendary bounty instead of 30,000 it becomes impossible to bring down with 30 players?

    The powercreep has heavily affected PvE as well over the years and everything has just become full dps or go home, that's how easy it is nowadays. People just want to kill mobs as fast as possible. They dont have to rebalance kitten even if they nerf damage overall. The only ones that will cry is the dps counter peepers that will be horrified to a number lower than the previous number and probably proclaim the game is dead.

    At the same time there are DPS checks in raids. They would have to alter those if modifier caps are put into PvE. Not against it in principle, but there are places were maxing damage is needed, but others where a modifier cap would be healthy.

    What places? What are the "dps check" numbers? Where is the data?

    I dont raid but a wild guess would be that even if people did 75% of their current dps they would still pass the "dps check". It'll just take longer. Can any veteran raider chime in on whats needed and what you can do?

    Either way, I am guessing that Anets intent is to take down the extremes while maintaining the averages and the lows.

    It wouldnt surprise me the slightest however if they nerf everything and maintain the relative extremes because they dont know how to balance things. Its highly likely this end up as another "chrono is fine, mesmer is fine, nerf mirage, mirage is OP!!!" > [Anet nerfs base mesmer traits to make mirage less OP] situtation, thus making everything thats unviable today even more unviable while the current dps leaders will still be dps leaders and meta.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

    Why?

    Would PvE become unplayable if it makes classes unable to solo raid bosses? The game becomes too hard if it takes 25s instead of 20s to take down 5 veterans at once? If you only do 27,000 dps against that legendary bounty instead of 30,000 it becomes impossible to bring down with 30 players?

    The powercreep has heavily affected PvE as well over the years and everything has just become full dps or go home, that's how easy it is nowadays. People just want to kill mobs as fast as possible. They dont have to rebalance kitten even if they nerf damage overall. The only ones that will cry is the dps counter peepers that will be horrified to a number lower than the previous number and probably proclaim the game is dead.

    At the same time there are DPS checks in raids. They would have to alter those if modifier caps are put into PvE. Not against it in principle, but there are places were maxing damage is needed, but others where a modifier cap would be healthy.

    What places? What are the "dps check" numbers? Where is the data?

    I dont raid but a wild guess would be that even if people did 75% of their current dps they would still pass the "dps check". It'll just take longer. Can any veteran raider chime in on whats needed and what you can do?

    Either way, I am guessing that Anets intent is to take down the extremes while maintaining the averages and the lows.

    It wouldnt surprise me the slightest however if they nerf everything and maintain the relative extremes because they dont know how to balance things. Its highly likely this end up as another "chrono is fine, mesmer is fine, nerf mirage, mirage is OP!!!" > [Anet nerfs base mesmer traits to make mirage less OP] situtation, thus making everything thats unviable today even more unviable while the current dps leaders will still be dps leaders and meta.

    I am worried about that, hence the discussion on just capping modifiers and condi stacks in competitive modes. Open world would be irrelevant, but I can see such caps in instanced content, maybe at different thresholds than the competitive modes.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2019

    The damage on most skills are fine actually the issue is usually the boons boosting stats up to points things are not tolerable there are a few exceptions like mesmer 1 shot builds that need to be adressed as that can 1shot people without having an obserd amount of boons applied. but in most cases like rev, warrior, ranger, etc its just the boons for the most part that give too much sustain or damage in some cases both.

    • Lower damage on CC skills make them like the cc skills in rampage especially if those cc skills have things like unblockable or evade attached to them.
    • Cull boons back so that there is no such thing as 40+ seconds of vigor, protection, regeneration. Make might burst beyond 15 or 20 stacks super limited to short time frames for solo self application.
    • Address no tell issues, 1 shot builds from stealth for example.
    • Address support specs having too much offensive power while keeping the benefit of the sustain built into their kits for their intended purposes of being played as support (mostly looking at firebrand here)

    Power creep in pve is a bit less of an issue because if they want in some cases they can force people to bring healers, and boon support much like they do in raids by adding mechanics pure full dps cant sustain. For open world i see no issue with going full glass considering there are usually other people around you it wont really matter. It really only matters in maybe future strikes, fractals, and raids where you want to some times have players invested into healing and boon support.

    Most of the power creep issues players will have issue with will be in wvw and spvp.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

    Why?

    Would PvE become unplayable if it makes classes unable to solo raid bosses? The game becomes too hard if it takes 25s instead of 20s to take down 5 veterans at once? If you only do 27,000 dps against that legendary bounty instead of 30,000 it becomes impossible to bring down with 30 players?

    The powercreep has heavily affected PvE as well over the years and everything has just become full dps or go home, that's how easy it is nowadays. People just want to kill mobs as fast as possible. They dont have to rebalance kitten even if they nerf damage overall. The only ones that will cry is the dps counter peepers that will be horrified to a number lower than the previous number and probably proclaim the game is dead.

    I agree with this regarding the DPS meta in PvE. To use an example, just look at Dungeons. Because of the crazy damage running rampant in the game, dungeons are literally obsolete now because it's too easy to just burst everything down.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The damage on most skills are fine actually the issue is usually the boons boosting stats up to points things are not tolerable there are a few exceptions like mesmer 1 shot builds that need to be adressed as that can 1shot people without having an obserd amount of boons applied. but in most cases like rev, warrior, ranger, etc its just the boons for the most part that give too much sustain or damage in some cases both.

    • Lower damage on CC skills make them like the cc skills in rampage especially if those cc skills have things like unblockable or evade attached to them.
    • Cull boons back so that there is no such thing as 40+ seconds of vigor, protection, regeneration. Make might burst beyond 15 or 20 stacks super limited to short time frames for solo self application.
    • Address no tell issues, 1 shot builds from stealth for example.
    • Address support specs having too much offensive power while keeping the benefit of the sustain built into their kits for their intended purposes of being played as support (mostly looking at firebrand here)

    Power creep in pve is a bit less of an issue because if they want in some cases they can force people to bring healers, and boon support much like they do in raids by adding mechanics pure full dps cant sustain. For open world i see no issue with going full glass considering there are usually other people around you it wont really matter. It really only matters in maybe future strikes, fractals, and raids where you want to some times have players invested into healing and boon support.

    Most of the power creep issues players will have issue with will be in wvw and spvp.

    Yeah I agree here. Warrior is a good example with the 25 might thing. if they didn't have 25 might, their damage wouldn't be so flippin high.
    Same with my build. I just recently posted a picture showcasing a 6.2k auto from flamethrower. 1 auto. As well, this was without 10% of the usual damage modifiers I have (I run Object in Motion, so in this case I lacked Superspeed and Swiftness for the extra 10% damage).
    Defensive, a good example is the Ranger trait that grants you Protection AND the the enemy weakness simply for being hit. Protection is good enough, but adding weakness onto it is absurd, absolutely absurd, and just for hitting them.
    Then another example is 10k Bambi which is OMEGALULfineOMEGALUL.
    I can go on with a list of so many things, but my intention of this reply is simply to agree with the one I am replying to.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The damage on most skills are fine actually the issue is usually the boons boosting stats up to points things are not tolerable there are a few exceptions like mesmer 1 shot builds that need to be adressed as that can 1shot people without having an obserd amount of boons applied. but in most cases like rev, warrior, ranger, etc its just the boons for the most part that give too much sustain or damage in some cases both.

    • Lower damage on CC skills make them like the cc skills in rampage especially if those cc skills have things like unblockable or evade attached to them.
    • Cull boons back so that there is no such thing as 40+ seconds of vigor, protection, regeneration. Make might burst beyond 15 or 20 stacks super limited to short time frames for solo self application.
    • Address no tell issues, 1 shot builds from stealth for example.
    • Address support specs having too much offensive power while keeping the benefit of the sustain built into their kits for their intended purposes of being played as support (mostly looking at firebrand here)

    Power creep in pve is a bit less of an issue because if they want in some cases they can force people to bring healers, and boon support much like they do in raids by adding mechanics pure full dps cant sustain. For open world i see no issue with going full glass considering there are usually other people around you it wont really matter. It really only matters in maybe future strikes, fractals, and raids where you want to some times have players invested into healing and boon support.

    Most of the power creep issues players will have issue with will be in wvw and spvp.

    Yeah I agree here. Warrior is a good example with the 25 might thing. if they didn't have 25 might, their damage wouldn't be so flippin high.
    Same with my build. I just recently posted a picture showcasing a 6.2k auto from flamethrower. 1 auto. As well, this was without 10% of the usual damage modifiers I have (I run Object in Motion, so in this case I lacked Superspeed and Swiftness for the extra 10% damage).
    Defensive, a good example is the Ranger trait that grants you Protection AND the the enemy weakness simply for being hit. Protection is good enough, but adding weakness onto it is absurd, absolutely absurd, and just for hitting them.
    Then another example is 10k Bambi which is OMEGALULfineOMEGALUL.
    I can go on with a list of so many things, but my intention of this reply is simply to agree with the one I am replying to.

    Warrior is one of the extreme examples to be honest because might syncs so well for them with a wide number of things and shouts like "for great justice" have just been power crept to the level that they are bluntly over performing. Not only does it give might to other players but the selfish use of it gives the caster 15 might for a long duration and fury with 0 cast time and the shout has 2 charges. With the right build that one utility becomes a small minor heal and free endurance restoration. Meanwhile some how the pve version is not power crept and only gives like 6 stacks of might or something.

  • @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The damage on most skills are fine actually the issue is usually the boons boosting stats up to points things are not tolerable there are a few exceptions like mesmer 1 shot builds that need to be adressed as that can 1shot people without having an obserd amount of boons applied. but in most cases like rev, warrior, ranger, etc its just the boons for the most part that give too much sustain or damage in some cases both.

    • Lower damage on CC skills make them like the cc skills in rampage especially if those cc skills have things like unblockable or evade attached to them.
    • Cull boons back so that there is no such thing as 40+ seconds of vigor, protection, regeneration. Make might burst beyond 15 or 20 stacks super limited to short time frames for solo self application.
    • Address no tell issues, 1 shot builds from stealth for example.
    • Address support specs having too much offensive power while keeping the benefit of the sustain built into their kits for their intended purposes of being played as support (mostly looking at firebrand here)

    Power creep in pve is a bit less of an issue because if they want in some cases they can force people to bring healers, and boon support much like they do in raids by adding mechanics pure full dps cant sustain. For open world i see no issue with going full glass considering there are usually other people around you it wont really matter. It really only matters in maybe future strikes, fractals, and raids where you want to some times have players invested into healing and boon support.

    Most of the power creep issues players will have issue with will be in wvw and spvp.

    Yeah I agree here. Warrior is a good example with the 25 might thing. if they didn't have 25 might, their damage wouldn't be so flippin high.
    Same with my build. I just recently posted a picture showcasing a 6.2k auto from flamethrower. 1 auto. As well, this was without 10% of the usual damage modifiers I have (I run Object in Motion, so in this case I lacked Superspeed and Swiftness for the extra 10% damage).
    Defensive, a good example is the Ranger trait that grants you Protection AND the the enemy weakness simply for being hit. Protection is good enough, but adding weakness onto it is absurd, absolutely absurd, and just for hitting them.
    Then another example is 10k Bambi which is OMEGALULfineOMEGALUL.
    I can go on with a list of so many things, but my intention of this reply is simply to agree with the one I am replying to.

    Warrior is one of the extreme examples to be honest because might syncs so well for them with a wide number of things and shouts like "for great justice" have just been power crept to the level that they are bluntly over performing. Not only does it give might to other players but the selfish use of it gives the caster 15 might for a long duration and fury with 0 cast time and the shout has 2 charges. With the right build that one utility becomes a small minor heal and free endurance restoration. Meanwhile some how the pve version is not power crept and only gives like 6 stacks of might or something.

    They just need to bring the PvE split into the competitive modes for FGJ. Fixes 30% of whatever overperformance people feel warrior might generation may be. Halving the gains on Forceful Greatsword fixes the rest honestly.

    Some would say Tether, but I disagree.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The damage on most skills are fine actually the issue is usually the boons boosting stats up to points things are not tolerable there are a few exceptions like mesmer 1 shot builds that need to be adressed as that can 1shot people without having an obserd amount of boons applied. but in most cases like rev, warrior, ranger, etc its just the boons for the most part that give too much sustain or damage in some cases both.

    • Lower damage on CC skills make them like the cc skills in rampage especially if those cc skills have things like unblockable or evade attached to them.
    • Cull boons back so that there is no such thing as 40+ seconds of vigor, protection, regeneration. Make might burst beyond 15 or 20 stacks super limited to short time frames for solo self application.
    • Address no tell issues, 1 shot builds from stealth for example.
    • Address support specs having too much offensive power while keeping the benefit of the sustain built into their kits for their intended purposes of being played as support (mostly looking at firebrand here)

    Power creep in pve is a bit less of an issue because if they want in some cases they can force people to bring healers, and boon support much like they do in raids by adding mechanics pure full dps cant sustain. For open world i see no issue with going full glass considering there are usually other people around you it wont really matter. It really only matters in maybe future strikes, fractals, and raids where you want to some times have players invested into healing and boon support.

    Most of the power creep issues players will have issue with will be in wvw and spvp.

    Yeah I agree here. Warrior is a good example with the 25 might thing. if they didn't have 25 might, their damage wouldn't be so flippin high.
    Same with my build. I just recently posted a picture showcasing a 6.2k auto from flamethrower. 1 auto. As well, this was without 10% of the usual damage modifiers I have (I run Object in Motion, so in this case I lacked Superspeed and Swiftness for the extra 10% damage).
    Defensive, a good example is the Ranger trait that grants you Protection AND the the enemy weakness simply for being hit. Protection is good enough, but adding weakness onto it is absurd, absolutely absurd, and just for hitting them.
    Then another example is 10k Bambi which is OMEGALULfineOMEGALUL.
    I can go on with a list of so many things, but my intention of this reply is simply to agree with the one I am replying to.

    Warrior is one of the extreme examples to be honest because might syncs so well for them with a wide number of things and shouts like "for great justice" have just been power crept to the level that they are bluntly over performing. Not only does it give might to other players but the selfish use of it gives the caster 15 might for a long duration and fury with 0 cast time and the shout has 2 charges. With the right build that one utility becomes a small minor heal and free endurance restoration. Meanwhile some how the pve version is not power crept and only gives like 6 stacks of might or something.

    They just need to bring the PvE split into the competitive modes for FGJ. Fixes 30% of whatever overperformance people feel warrior might generation may be. Halving the gains on Forceful Greatsword fixes the rest honestly.

    Some would say Tether, but I disagree.

    Tether is an issue too though to some extent. Not so much with the fact that it generates might but rather how fast it generates it.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The damage on most skills are fine actually the issue is usually the boons boosting stats up to points things are not tolerable there are a few exceptions like mesmer 1 shot builds that need to be adressed as that can 1shot people without having an obserd amount of boons applied. but in most cases like rev, warrior, ranger, etc its just the boons for the most part that give too much sustain or damage in some cases both.

    • Lower damage on CC skills make them like the cc skills in rampage especially if those cc skills have things like unblockable or evade attached to them.
    • Cull boons back so that there is no such thing as 40+ seconds of vigor, protection, regeneration. Make might burst beyond 15 or 20 stacks super limited to short time frames for solo self application.
    • Address no tell issues, 1 shot builds from stealth for example.
    • Address support specs having too much offensive power while keeping the benefit of the sustain built into their kits for their intended purposes of being played as support (mostly looking at firebrand here)

    Power creep in pve is a bit less of an issue because if they want in some cases they can force people to bring healers, and boon support much like they do in raids by adding mechanics pure full dps cant sustain. For open world i see no issue with going full glass considering there are usually other people around you it wont really matter. It really only matters in maybe future strikes, fractals, and raids where you want to some times have players invested into healing and boon support.

    Most of the power creep issues players will have issue with will be in wvw and spvp.

    Yeah I agree here. Warrior is a good example with the 25 might thing. if they didn't have 25 might, their damage wouldn't be so flippin high.
    Same with my build. I just recently posted a picture showcasing a 6.2k auto from flamethrower. 1 auto. As well, this was without 10% of the usual damage modifiers I have (I run Object in Motion, so in this case I lacked Superspeed and Swiftness for the extra 10% damage).
    Defensive, a good example is the Ranger trait that grants you Protection AND the the enemy weakness simply for being hit. Protection is good enough, but adding weakness onto it is absurd, absolutely absurd, and just for hitting them.
    Then another example is 10k Bambi which is OMEGALULfineOMEGALUL.
    I can go on with a list of so many things, but my intention of this reply is simply to agree with the one I am replying to.

    Warrior is one of the extreme examples to be honest because might syncs so well for them with a wide number of things and shouts like "for great justice" have just been power crept to the level that they are bluntly over performing. Not only does it give might to other players but the selfish use of it gives the caster 15 might for a long duration and fury with 0 cast time and the shout has 2 charges. With the right build that one utility becomes a small minor heal and free endurance restoration. Meanwhile some how the pve version is not power crept and only gives like 6 stacks of might or something.

    They just need to bring the PvE split into the competitive modes for FGJ. Fixes 30% of whatever overperformance people feel warrior might generation may be. Halving the gains on Forceful Greatsword fixes the rest honestly.

    Some would say Tether, but I disagree.

    Tether is an issue too though to some extent. Not so much with the fact that it generates might but rather how fast it generates it.

    2-3 might per second is not that rapid. Not like FGJ or Signet of Might.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    So the fabled Q1 balance update that is supposed to address powercreep in the competitive modes is stated to:

    • Reduce hard CC damage
    • address condi spam
    • reduce damage across the board

    I fear that this will just end up utterly gutting specific traits and skills. So how about an alternative? What are your thoughts on the below? Also, if any Devs do read this then strongly consider these ideas and what discussion may follow.

    Instead of gutting scaling like with what was done with Rampage why not put a cap on the added damage players can stack in competitive game modes? Its not at all difficult to stack up to 700% damage on a Soulbeast for instance.

    Put a cap on extra damage, including critical damage, at 300% damage. Most of this would come from critical damage, so this would open up traits for use as once you hit that 300% mark then anything else is useless unless it offers other things. This also curbs the toxic amount of DPS some builds can put out and create an opportunity for more build diversity.

    For condi, put a cap on the amount of condition stacks that players can be inflicted with. This means not more than X stacks of Bleed, X stacks of Poison, X Stacks of Burning, etc. This is not X total stacks of any condition, but X stacks per condition. I'm not certain what that cap should be, perhaps it should be split between PvP and WvW but the amount of condi removal would have to decrease to compensate regardless.

    I think 10 stacks per condition max would work, but as I said I'm not sure whether or not that would be appropriate. Maybe the right number is 15, or 20, or lower at 5.

    Separately for WvW something that I think would work would be to limit the amount of damage packets a player can be inflicted by per second, or limit the amount of other players that can hit another player per second. This would limit the need to ball up on the pin to avoid damage.

    Another possible idea for WvW to create healthier competition in outnumbered fights would be to increase target caps on skills and abilities to allow an individual player to fight against a larger number of foes.

    Thoughts? Other ideas? Tweaks you would make to the above?

    They should have kept conditions the way they were before the big condi rework. Bleed capped at 25, burning and poison not stacking duration, and confusion not having a DoT component.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

    Why?

    Would PvE become unplayable if it makes classes unable to solo raid bosses? The game becomes too hard if it takes 25s instead of 20s to take down 5 veterans at once? If you only do 27,000 dps against that legendary bounty instead of 30,000 it becomes impossible to bring down with 30 players?

    The powercreep has heavily affected PvE as well over the years and everything has just become full dps or go home, that's how easy it is nowadays. People just want to kill mobs as fast as possible. They dont have to rebalance kitten even if they nerf damage overall. The only ones that will cry is the dps counter peepers that will be horrified to a number lower than the previous number and probably proclaim the game is dead.

    At the same time there are DPS checks in raids. They would have to alter those if modifier caps are put into PvE. Not against it in principle, but there are places were maxing damage is needed, but others where a modifier cap would be healthy.

    It's not like clearing raids was an issue back in pre-PoF days when condi tempest was top DPS with 29k golem dps and pretty much everyone did 25% less dps than now. Just required people to actually do some mechanics if they wanted to improve the chances of getting the kill. Currently pretty much over 80% of pure dps builds, even the weaker ones, bench over 20k and over 50% would bench 24k or more (and Kitty's including ALL pretty much weapon combos here on both condi and power builds). About 5% of builds bench above 30k but that's already dozens of them.

    From Kitty's experience testing various builds in raids, if you can do 24k on a build, you already do fairly more than enough dps to clear the raids and even if we received a 10-20% blanket nerf for weapon combos that bench over 25k, we'd still clear raids just fine. Just can't ignore mechs as much as this far. Currently people like to say "higher dps means less chances of wiping to mechanic failure" while it currently essentially means "higher dps means less chances of wiping to intentional mechanic failures that you try to overheal through". Slightly tuning down heals and barriers also would combat against that (like nerfing Soulcleave's life siphon, scourge's barriers, engi's and rev's outgoing healing modifiers, tempest's heals, guard's Pure of Heart and increasing Transfusion cooldown) as it'd make it harder to hard-carry through constant mechanical failures.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • While i agree that adding caps on some game elements like might stacks, crit damage etc would help with reducing the damage ceiling, power creep is much more of a fundamental game design issue that cant be completely fixed with number tweaks. All skills, traits, elite specs, need to be looked at and need to be re-balanced or re-designed with competitive pvp in mind. Gameplay elements like evading while doing damage, abundant defensive, CC, and mobility skills, and low effort - high impact damage combos cant be fixed by changing numbers and coefficients on skills, the way the skills function needs to be reworked.

    I think the main concern is that there is simply far too much that needs to be changed to make gw2 pvp more competitive. Even if they have the time and resources to attempt this, there is a very good chance that the changes wont be enough to make the game more enjoyable.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

    Why?

    Would PvE become unplayable if it makes classes unable to solo raid bosses? The game becomes too hard if it takes 25s instead of 20s to take down 5 veterans at once? If you only do 27,000 dps against that legendary bounty instead of 30,000 it becomes impossible to bring down with 30 players?

    The powercreep has heavily affected PvE as well over the years and everything has just become full dps or go home, that's how easy it is nowadays. People just want to kill mobs as fast as possible. They dont have to rebalance kitten even if they nerf damage overall. The only ones that will cry is the dps counter peepers that will be horrified to a number lower than the previous number and probably proclaim the game is dead.

    It's a fair question to ask.

    They say that this is mostly a competitive update.

    I am just curious if it would affect raids, or if they will leave pve numbers the same as they are now.

    My guess is they wont touch pve since they are calling it a competitive update.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    I agree with this regarding the DPS meta in PvE. To use an example, just look at Dungeons. Because of the crazy damage running rampant in the game, dungeons are literally obsolete now because it's too easy to just burst everything down.

    That's not why dungeons are obsolete. Dungeons created the DPS meta, it was Anet taking them out back and shooting them in the head (to make fractals/raids look good in comparison) that did it.

    @warherox.7943 said:
    They should have kept conditions the way they were before the big condi rework. Bleed capped at 25, burning and poison not stacking duration, and confusion not having a DoT component.

    No, they should not have, because multiple condition users no longer actively hinder each other like they used to when there was a cap.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    While i agree that adding caps on some game elements like might stacks, crit damage etc would help with reducing the damage ceiling, power creep is much more of a fundamental game design issue that cant be completely fixed with number tweaks. All skills, traits, elite specs, need to be looked at and need to be re-balanced or re-designed with competitive pvp in mind. Gameplay elements like evading while doing damage, abundant defensive, CC, and mobility skills, and low effort - high impact damage combos cant be fixed by changing numbers and coefficients on skills, the way the skills function needs to be reworked.

    I think the main concern is that there is simply far too much that needs to be changed to make gw2 pvp more competitive. Even if they have the time and resources to attempt this, there is a very good chance that the changes wont be enough to make the game more enjoyable.

    That much rework would indeed be a heavy lift time and resource wise, hence the suggestion in this thread to limit the degree damage can power creep. From there individual traits and skills can be looked out to add functionality if needed, or excess trimmed away.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well it will be interesting ro see if they spent a bunch of time on this looking at traits and such, or if it will just be nerfing targeted things.

    They make it sound like they are putting a lot of time into it...

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    Well it will be interesting ro see if they spent a bunch of time on this looking at traits and such, or if it will just be nerfing targeted things.

    They make it sound like they are putting a lot of time into it...

    Yeah, I'm just wishing that there is not wide spread gutting like what they did to Rampage (or Chronos).

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    Well it will be interesting ro see if they spent a bunch of time on this looking at traits and such, or if it will just be nerfing targeted things.

    They make it sound like they are putting a lot of time into it...

    Yeah, I'm just wishing that there is not wide spread gutting like what they did to Rampage (or Chronos).

    Agreed. I would be more ok with it if they adjusted our elites some. Banner needs help and we need an elite Shout and Stance. Having more options would make it hurt less.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2020

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    Well it will be interesting ro see if they spent a bunch of time on this looking at traits and such, or if it will just be nerfing targeted things.

    They make it sound like they are putting a lot of time into it...

    Yeah, I'm just wishing that there is not wide spread gutting like what they did to Rampage (or Chronos).

    Agreed. I would be more ok with it if they adjusted our elites some. Banner needs help and we need an elite Shout and Stance. Having more options would make it hurt less.

    This is actually very true, and I think what ur talking about is more critical than the devs know...

    Lack of skills and some skills are just copy paste with different color is one of gw2 issues.

    Kinda forces devs to condence best performance on a niche number of skills and that will bork up balance since Anet want skills to feel strong and carry player at its usage.

    Am yet waiting for Anet learn this.

  • Imagine a see-saw that has a pile of fragile plates on each side which you are trying to balance without it crashing into an unbalanced mess

    Option 1: change 20 things on 1 side, and 30 on another. Do this once every 3 months. Get the brush ready.

    Option 2, change 1 plate on each side and repeat carefully and regularly.

    Guess what our current patching model looks like, that is the issue and allways will be. Until things change.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2020

    Yes, caps should be a thing in a competitive environment, problem is how to approach intensity without making condition damage vanish?

    It's not exactly easy to manage, I still think that one of the biggest problem is people panic cleansing instead of waiting for the big delivery then make use of their sustain.

    The only thing I would change is Might, it's the biggest offender for all forms of damage at 25.

    12 would be plenty as a cap and I could see that fix a lot of problem we already have before with applying condition stack caps, because if we were to allow it then should also power gets capped also and that would be too complicated to manage with toughness.

    Condition is just like Power overtime, it really is. There's just the mentality of not losing all your health right away that makes it feel unfair.

    Also if damage reduction modifiers have a limit, so should damage increase as well.

    Perhaps if there was more /big/ condition hits like warrior rather than multi hits, that would also contribute to the feeling of being less unfair also.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just reduce spam in general. CC, condition, boon. Gameplay need to be more punishing and rewarding for hitting and whiffing skills.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think power creep is something you're ever going to solve properly in any give mmo, the best you can do and hope for is to get all classes into a state where they're fun to play even if they're albeit not balanced between each other.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I wonder if they will spill this over into pve. If they do, they may have to rebalance mob health pools.

    Why?

    Would PvE become unplayable if it makes classes unable to solo raid bosses? The game becomes too hard if it takes 25s instead of 20s to take down 5 veterans at once? If you only do 27,000 dps against that legendary bounty instead of 30,000 it becomes impossible to bring down with 30 players?

    The powercreep has heavily affected PvE as well over the years and everything has just become full dps or go home, that's how easy it is nowadays. People just want to kill mobs as fast as possible. They dont have to rebalance kitten even if they nerf damage overall. The only ones that will cry is the dps counter peepers that will be horrified to a number lower than the previous number and probably proclaim the game is dead.

    At the same time there are DPS checks in raids. They would have to alter those if modifier caps are put into PvE. Not against it in principle, but there are places were maxing damage is needed, but others where a modifier cap would be healthy.

    and ? they dont have to keep the old dmg numbers for the check, they would just need to adjust and do it with less dmg. maybe supports will get more viable then, because you actually need to sustain longer to finish a boss, instead of just killing it before it kills the group.

  • Some individual skills need to be nerfed, like DH traps or axe 5 warrior. Condis are not the problem in this way. Just reduce their duration time. There is a limit on how many condi stacks you can inflict on a mob, because your "oldest" stacks will end in a certain moment, e.g. the possible limit of torment stacks for condi mirage is 40-50 and if you reach these 50 stacks, it would drop almost instantly. There is a cap for condi duration (stats).
    For power damage: needs a crit chance cap and crit damage cap, so you can't have more than 50% chance. Critical hits should be something that would occasionaly make you deal more damage, not just a way to increase you dps. First thing in meta build is reaching 100% crit chance (this is why some professions have Berserker mixed with Assassin), because non crit hit = 300% less damage, and dealing only critical hits is a huge dps increase.

    I don't like sand. It's coarse, and rough, and irritating, and it gets everywhere.

  • @Antycypator.9874 said:
    Some individual skills need to be nerfed, like DH traps or axe 5 warrior. Condis are not the problem in this way. Just reduce their duration time. There is a limit on how many condi stacks you can inflict on a mob, because your "oldest" stacks will end in a certain moment, e.g. the possible limit of torment stacks for condi mirage is 40-50 and if you reach these 50 stacks, it would drop almost instantly. There is a cap for condi duration (stats).
    For power damage: needs a crit chance cap and crit damage cap, so you can't have more than 50% chance. Critical hits should be something that would occasionaly make you deal more damage, not just a way to increase you dps. First thing in meta build is reaching 100% crit chance (this is why some professions have Berserker mixed with Assassin), because non crit hit = 300% less damage, and dealing only critical hits is a huge dps increase.

    Axe 5 is not something you see in WvW typically. High damage in theory, but not in practice.

    I think you're hitting onto something here with the rest of your post though with condi duration. Reduce the base durations in PvP/WvW. Perhaps only in WvW since there are more condis to stack there.

    I disagree on the Crit Chance cap, there are builds that need crit for things other than power damage. The issue with power damage is stacking multipliers, crit damage included. We have armor stats that give more than 50% crit chance. If we instead cap the extent that damage can be increased by then we limit the power creep. Maybe a piece of that is capping crit damage. But there needs to be a ceiling on the amount of %damage increases one can attain.

  • Drgnfly.5812Drgnfly.5812 Member ✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    The use of damage modifiers needs to be addressed if the developers want to tackle power creep. One of the bigger issues I see is the number of damage modifiers in the game and how certain professions have access to a much wider selection of these modifiers. (Glaring at the Warrior profession.) While I'm not advocating for removal of damage modifiers, I would advocate for specific kinds of modifiers only existing with specific professions.

    As an example, consider the "Increase damage for every boon on you" trait. Right now 5/9 professions carry this specific trait. ( Guardian, Warrior, Ranger, Thief (Deadeye), and Elementalist) There is no uniformity in access to this trait among these professions in game and no obvious telegraphing that this trait is in use. For Warriors and Guardian these traits are "minors", therefore guaranteed based on trait line selection. However, for Ranger and Elementalist these traits are "majors" and require trade-off in trait selection. As for Thief, further imbalance is achieved as access to this trait type comes only with the selection of an elite specialization. The lack of uniformity, accessibility, and application of this one damage modifier encourages power creep and demands redesign.

    I would propose that can be achieved by redeveloping this trait type to activate only under specific boon applications, like is already seen in the Engineer or Revenant professions. Twelve different boons exist within the game, twelve different opportunities to create "Deal more damage while the effects of (x)". Traits like that encourage build diversity, suppress power creep, and even would provide a means of potentially telegraphing the use of that trait in competitive game modes without creating unneeded icons.

    Only by addressing this and other damage modifiers will power creep begin to come back down.

    "There is little love for those of my kind in this place, yet I am here to help save them all. To those who matter, actions speak louder than words and my actions shall echo across this city for eternity until all recognize the honor of the Tengu race." ~ Talon Silverwing