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PvP in GW2 is beginning to feel like the Hasbro board game Battleship

Trevor Boyer.6524

By Trevor Boyer.6524
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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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^ Thread title says it all.

This is mainly because stealth uptime & frequency of application has become waaaaay too prevalent intra-class wide. I don't mind if Thief builds are running around doing this stuff, but other classes seriously need a strong handed 50% reduction in their stealth play. It's gotten out of hand at this point. It's like every other class/build and person you engage nowadays is wearing a dungeons & dragons ring of mass invisibility or something. Yeah, not only are they stealthing themselves frequently, but they are also able to stealth their entire team with skills & field blasting that is on relatively low cool down. The game now feels like I had purchased an Alien vs. Predator title, where the game was entirely designed around the theme & objective of invisibly stalking each other for stealth ganks.

This effect & feel becomes worse with how much additional teleportational mobility that has been introduced into the game as well as overall DPS power creep. When too great of mobility & extreme DPS output is combined with Predator like stealth potential, it begins to turn Guild Wars 2 competitive modes into Hasbro Battleship, a game where you're spending an awful lot of time trying to interpret where your opponent is that you cannot see on the map, often feeling more RNG guess oriented rather than mechanical combat skill oriented.

As a Guild Wars 2 consumer & connoisseur of 8 years now, I can say that I've always loved this game's pvp which is why I'm still here. But I do not like where this stealth heavy dynamic is taking the competitive direction of the game. Notice I am not saying that it is over powered. I am saying that too much stealth play is ruining the smooth dynamic that the game mode once had. There was a time where conquest was about sheer map awareness & player experience level, being able to see where players are going or coming from, and being able to reliably create plays against it as such. But nowadays there is so much stealth & long range mobility while stealthed, that the game demands just as much RNG guess work as it does map awareness & player experience, concerning who is where, where to go next, or where not to go. I do not like how that feels.

I can't remember who said this, but I'm going to quote it as he represented & captured the feel of what I'm trying to say quite perfectly. He said: "We could have a class that only had 1 skill, and that 1 skill was a skill that when used, had a 50% chance to instantly kill the player who used it, as well as a 50% chance to instantly kill the opponent he had targeted. Although this class would actually be perfectly balanced, it means nothing next to the fact that this single class is going to make the game feel more about chance and less about skill." I bring up this quote because this is exactly what it feels like to me, with so many Hasbro Battleship elements that are present in the game today.

Can we please, normalize the stealth play?

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ugrakarma.9416

ugrakarma.9416

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like i always said the "everyone can be everything" is the primordial sin of this game.U question should be: if tankness, healing, one-shotting, CC spam is acessible to all professions, why not stealth too?

if everyone can be everything, then anything had stack effect or would appear too much.

the crybaby about "mmmmm we dont have new expansion, nor new elite specs" can be read as "mmm we dont have given stealth to a new class like warrior or reaper yet".

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I'll never understand why stealth was given to so many classes. It's a hard mechanic to balance and I see why a theif assassin class would have sneaky or stealth gameplay but why the rest? Even mesmer has confusion,clones,portals and tele's as their thing so why stealth to? Than u got rangers,scrappers etc etc, it's silly.

I have already explained this to you but keep playing dumb.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:100% agree. Nerf the burst and remove some layers of defense, remove stealth and tone down distortion and similar on demand invuls. These defensive effects that dont rely on stat investments trivializes gear choice and will always be OP on full glass specs.

TLDRI dont have invulns or stealth so im fine with nerfing them :Dnerf fear by 90%, its too prevelant with boon corrupt you can fear 5+ times back to back !

Fear has like 7x more counterplay compared to stealth or invuln. You are just bad.

U are definitely right that fear has more counterplay than stealth but that doesn't make a necro fearing u every so many seconds over and over while ur trying to fight it lol especially if uve used or don't have enough clears to counter half as many as the necro's throwing out.With that said I'm of the opinion thieves should have been the only class with access to stealth as for a lot its design and therefore its builds require it not only as a means of burst but for sustain. A class like mesmer has blocks,invulnerability,blinks and as its main mechanism clones and phantasm to distract and confuse player leaving it without the need for stealth. The amount of stealth engines gets is silly as well and not even fitting of the class. Ranger instead of stealth should have had the ability in pvp to remove its icon off the map allowing only players to visually track it due to a rangers ability to sneak well.Stealth in my eyes ends up being prevalent in so many matches cuz more classes have access to it then there should be and its feels like stealth has been thrown onto classes that seem like they wernt even balanced around having access to it

In your opinion illusionist should not have access to stealth?

Why does a illusionist need stealth when it has illusions to confuse and distract its opponents along with teleports,blocks and invulns etc I think the class is loaded enough

It's like one of the main class fantasies of being an illusionist.

InvisibilityLevel: 2Components: V, S, MRange: TouchAoE: Creature touchedSave: NoneCasting Time : 2Duration: SpecialThis spell causes the creature touched to vanish from sight and be undetectable by normal vision or even infravision. Of course, the invisible creature is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the creature detectable. Even allies cannot see the invisible creature or his gear, unless these allies can normally see invisible things or employ magic to do so. Items dropped or put down by the invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Note, however, that light never becomes invisible, although a source of lightcan become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). The spell remains in effect until it is magically broken or dispelled, until the wizard or recipient cancels it, until the recipient attacks any creature, or until 24 hours have passed. Thus, the invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, etc., but if he attacks, he immediately becomes visible, although the invisibility enables him to attack first. Note that the priest spells bless, chant, and prayer are not attacks for this purpose. All highly Intelligent (Intelligence 13 or more) creatures with 10 or more Hit Dice or levels of experience have a chance to detect invisible objects (they roll saving throws vs. spell; success means they noticed the invisible object). The material components of the invisibility spell are an eyelash and a bit of gum arabic, the former encased in the latter.

Mass InvisibilityLevel: 7Components: V, S, MRange: 10 yds./levelAoE: 60 x 60 yds.Save: NoneCasting Time : 7Duration: SpecialThis is a more extensive adaptation of the invisibility spell for battlefield use. It can hide creatures in a 60-yard x 60-yard area: up to 400 man-sized creatures, 30 to 40 giants, or six to eight large dragons. The effect is mobile with the unit and is broken when the unit attacks. Individuals leaving the unit become visible. The wizard can end this spell upon command. The material components of the mass invisibility spell are an eyelash and a bit of gum arabic, the former encased in the latter.

Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

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Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

seems like he wants to steal stealth lol. someones jelly.

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

Most of thief is built around stealth,stealth in mmos is invisibility. Ninjas like as depicted I'n most of thief's traits use stealth attacks aka invis ingame,mirages confuse hense clones and phantasms

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

Most of thief is built around stealth,stealth in mmos is invisibility. Ninjas like as depicted I'n most of thief's traits use stealth attacks aka invis ingame,mirages confuse hense clones and phantasms

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out that historically, most rpgs table top or video game, make a distinct difference between "being stealthy through knowing how to sneak" and "wizards casting predator like invisibility spells."

I never said any of this was OP and I am not arguing with you. My argument is that there is flat out too much wizard like invisibility going on game wide. And the answer is not to add more reveal skills to the game. That's just going to result in more spam play such as when you try to counter DPS creep with more defensive boon spam. What we need is less spam play, so that being wise when choosing to use or not to use a stealth CD actually matters again. As of now, there are too many classes/builds that quite seriously every time they dip & turn around a corner or jump up over a box, they stealth and are gone or stealth and come back with a 1-2HKO.

I understand that Thief was originally designed as the primary stealth ganker for the purposes of GW2 class dynamic. Then we have Mesmer that was supposed to be a secondary less potent class for doing this. Then we had originally Ranger LB 3 for a very short stealth disengage, before Smokescale field stealthing. And then we had Engi with short stealth on toolbelt. But over the course of time, all of these skills have blown up with the elongation of stealth effects and even reduced CDs. in some cases there are extra smoke fields added, or runes that provide stealth effects, ect ect. It's too much at this point.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

Most of thief is built around stealth,stealth in mmos is invisibility. Ninjas like as depicted I'n most of thief's traits use stealth attacks aka invis ingame,mirages confuse hense clones and phantasms

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out that historically, most rpgs table top or video game, make a distinct difference between "being stealthy through knowing how to sneak" and "wizards casting predator like invisibility spells."

I never said any of this was OP and I am not arguing with you. My argument is that there is flat out too much wizard like invisibility going on game wide.
And the answer is not to add more reveal skills to the game. That's just going to result in more spam play such as when you try to counter DPS creep with more defensive boon spam.
What we need is less spam play, so that being wise when choosing to use or not to use a stealth CD actually matters again. As of now, there are too many classes/builds that quite seriously every time they dip & turn around a corner or jump up over a box, they stealth and are gone or stealth and come back with a 1-2HKO.

Sry I meant to quote morailus lol.While I have u guys here I'm trying to uninstall gw2 as I dont really want it on comp anymore these days and it keeps throwing fatal error? Have u guys seen this?

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

Most of thief is built around stealth,stealth in mmos is invisibility. Ninjas like as depicted I'n most of thief's traits use stealth attacks aka invis ingame,mirages confuse hense clones and phantasms

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out that historically, most rpgs table top or video game, make a distinct difference between "being stealthy through knowing how to sneak" and "wizards casting predator like invisibility spells."

I never said any of this was OP and I am not arguing with you. My argument is that there is flat out too much wizard like invisibility going on game wide.
And the answer is not to add more reveal skills to the game. That's just going to result in more spam play such as when you try to counter DPS creep with more defensive boon spam.
What we need is less spam play, so that being wise when choosing to use or not to use a stealth CD actually matters again. As of now, there are too many classes/builds that quite seriously every time they dip & turn around a corner or jump up over a box, they stealth and are gone or stealth and come back with a 1-2HKO.

Sry I meant to quote morailus lol.While I have u guys here I'm trying to uninstall gw2 as I dont really want it on comp anymore these days and it keeps throwing fatal error? Have u guys seen this?

Actually yes.

Just about every other time I log in, it for some reason critical errors and completely shuts down my client for absolutely no reason within about 5 minutes of signing online. I have no idea why it's doing that, but it seems to be rather common nowadays. If I remember correctly, I began experiencing strange issues like this around the time they dropped the Icebrood Saga episode 1.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

Most of thief is built around stealth,stealth in mmos is invisibility. Ninjas like as depicted I'n most of thief's traits use stealth attacks aka invis ingame,mirages confuse hense clones and phantasms

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out that historically, most rpgs table top or video game, make a distinct difference between "being stealthy through knowing how to sneak" and "wizards casting predator like invisibility spells."

I never said any of this was OP and I am not arguing with you. My argument is that there is flat out too much wizard like invisibility going on game wide.
And the answer is not to add more reveal skills to the game. That's just going to result in more spam play such as when you try to counter DPS creep with more defensive boon spam.
What we need is less spam play, so that being wise when choosing to use or not to use a stealth CD actually matters again. As of now, there are too many classes/builds that quite seriously every time they dip & turn around a corner or jump up over a box, they stealth and are gone or stealth and come back with a 1-2HKO.

Sry I meant to quote morailus lol.While I have u guys here I'm trying to uninstall gw2 as I dont really want it on comp anymore these days and it keeps throwing fatal error? Have u guys seen this?

Actually yes.

Just about every other time I log in, it for some reason critical errors and completely shuts down my client for absolutely no reason within about 5 minutes of signing online. I have no idea why it's doing that, but it seems to be rather common nowadays. If I remember correctly, I began experiencing strange issues like this around the time they dropped the Icebrood Saga episode 1.

It's like it just doesnt want to let go lol, its not a huge deal just figured was a waste if space being there. Gonna try and delete each file tomorrow which hopefully solve the issue. Thanks for replying about it,I appreciate it.

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

This.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

This.

Lmao u serious?This isnt a table top d&d game where u can role a dice and say "ohhhh the thief quietly sneaks up and strikes its opponent from behind for a fatal backstab".This is a mmo video game where any sneak or stealth would be useless unless it's a cloak like predator style stealth or invisibility cuz oh I donno u can see visual queues in video games lol. Huge difference.I could imagine a squishy rogue in a mmo crouching and sneaking up behind a player lmao oh so sneaky lol u would never get a stealth hit off unless ur opponent is afk. Or a thief standing in a shadowed area still visible thinking shhhhh they'll never see me coming lol. Then again I'm guessing that is what most of the community would prefer and think is balanced lol

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

This.

Lmao u serious?This isnt a table top d&d game where u can role a dice and say "ohhhh the thief quietly sneaks up and strikes its opponent from behind for a fatal backstab".This is a mmo video game where any sneak or stealth would be useless unless it's a cloak like predator style stealth or invisibility cuz oh I donno u can see visual queues in video games lol. Huge difference.I could imagine a squishy rogue in a mmo crouching and sneaking up behind a player lmao oh so sneaky lol u would never get a stealth hit off unless ur opponent is afk. Or a thief standing in a shadowed area still visible thinking shhhhh they'll never see me coming lol. Then again I'm guessing that is what most of the community would prefer and think is balanced lol

I think the better point of the mention is to point out how an effect such as invisibility is a powerful game changer. It isn't something that everyone should have all of the time so lightly.

In most other "video games" as you reference, rogue and thief like sneaking is usually handled in ways like this:

  1. You go off the map radar and turn a faded color until a player character happens to face you within a certain range. Even if you got within 200 range of them but were behind them, they still wouldn't see you on their screen unless they faced you.
  2. Your character must go into "walk" animation for the time they are sneaking, greatly lowering their mobility.
  3. In some cases the "hide" skill, if it does work like stealth in GW2, only functions while the player stands completely still.

There is something to be said about maintaining the touch the mental association we all have of how a real combat feels or sounds or is. It's one thing to tag on extra speed boosts or stat buffs or fireball graphics, as long as the game triggers associations within the mind that a user has sort of experienced before. This is what keeps a game exciting. While sword fighting or dodging attacks, one's mind can relate to these dangerous activities and as such it gets a type of endorphin rush. But when too many abstract strange functions enter a game, it becomes less and less like a real combat, and then the game begins to feel too weird.. too different. and that isn't always a good thing. I don't know how else to explain this.

Imagine putting on a VR headset and a set of gloves, and engaging in the most UBER realistic boxing game ever designed, where you go online and compete with serious boxing techniques against other players in a virtually simulated ring where there are 1000s or in some cases millions of viewers for your match if you're a pro. When you have a match against another top 100 player in the world, imagine the rush you feel 1v1ing in that game, as you rise in ranks while viewers watch you live and yell things at you in coms as if it were actual arena.

^ Now imagine what the game would lose if each player could stealth for 3 seconds every 15 seconds. Sometimes less is more, even in an RPG designed for magical effects.

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Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mesmers having invisibility makes more sense thematically than thieves having invisibility.

for what game? it really doesn't lol.

Yeah lmao cuz hes a mesmer main it somehow does. Cuz u kno the ports,portals,clones and phantasm arnt enough for class identity.

He's talking about the difference between "hiding" & "move silently" as skills, vs. actual "invisibiliy" as a spell. In dungeons & dragons as example, a thief or rogue is sneaky because they use physical skills in hiding & moving silently, which you have to roll spot & listen checks against, which are also physical based skills. There is no limit to the times per day that they can use these skills.

Invisibility on the other hand, is an actual spell that regardless of how high your spot check is, a player cannot see through invisibility without a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural quality to do so. At best a player can roll a spot check to see if the invisible player is walking across a sandy floor leaving foot prints as he goes by, but the player still cannot see through the invisibility. He could also roll a listen check to try and hear where the invisible player is at, but he still can't actually see the invisible opponent. The invisibility will grant many combat bonuses, even if a player knows the exact position that the invisible opponent is standing in. Imagine being in a boxing ring and trying to fist fight an invisible opponent that you know is standing directly in front of you. Invisibility is also limited in use per day, depending on how many timers per day the caster has/is allowed to prepare the spell, which is not often at all unless you're playing in a very high leveled epic campaign. Invisibility is a very powerful effect and only lasts a matter of rounds or minutes.

I think mort is making the point that stealth in GW2 functions more like invisibility as a popular table top rpg spell which is cast by wizard classes, than the skill hide which is used by rogues & thief classes.

in table top rpgs that fundamental difference is very real.

This.

Lmao u serious?This isnt a table top d&d game where u can role a dice and say "ohhhh the thief quietly sneaks up and strikes its opponent from behind for a fatal backstab".This is a mmo video game where any sneak or stealth would be useless unless it's a cloak like predator style stealth or invisibility cuz oh I donno u can see visual queues in video games lol. Huge difference.I could imagine a squishy rogue in a mmo crouching and sneaking up behind a player lmao oh so sneaky lol u would never get a stealth hit off unless ur opponent is afk. Or a thief standing in a shadowed area still visible thinking shhhhh they'll never see me coming lol. Then again I'm guessing that is what most of the community would prefer and think is balanced lol

I think the better point of the mention is to point out how an effect such as invisibility is a powerful game changer. It isn't something that everyone should have all of the time so lightly.

In most other "video games" as you reference, rogue and thief like sneaking is usually handled in ways like this:
  1. You go off the map radar and turn a faded color until a player character happens to face you within a certain range. Even if you got within 200 range of them but were behind them, they still wouldn't see you on their screen unless they faced you.
  2. Your character must go into "walk" animation for the time they are sneaking, greatly lowering their mobility.
  3. In some cases the "hide" skill, if it does work like stealth in GW2, only functions while the player stands completely still.

There is something to be said about maintaining the touch the mental association we all have of how a real combat feels or sounds or is. It's one thing to tag on extra speed boosts or stat buffs or fireball graphics, as long as the game triggers associations within the mind that a user has sort of experienced before. This is what keeps a game exciting. While sword fighting or dodging attacks, one's mind can relate to these dangerous activities and as such it gets a type of endorphin rush. But when too many abstract strange functions enter a game, it becomes less and less like a real combat, and then the game begins to feel too weird.. too different. and that isn't always a good thing. I don't know how else to explain this.

Imagine putting on a VR headset and a set of gloves, and engaging in the most UBER realistic boxing game ever designed, where you go online and compete with serious boxing techniques against other players in a virtually simulated ring where there are 1000s or in some cases millions of viewers for your match if you're a pro. When you have a match against another top 100 player in the world, imagine the rush you feel 1v1ing in that game, as you rise in ranks while viewers watch you live and yell things at you in coms as if it were actual arena.

^ Now imagine what the game would lose if each player could stealth for 3 seconds every 15 seconds. Sometimes less is more, even in an RPG designed for magical effects.

Stealth on some professions isn't the problem. The issue is the pve ruleset for stealth in pvp modes...

So you understand what I mean...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88414/please-fix-broken-stealth-mechanics-here-are-some-constructive-ideas-for-inspiration

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Tao.5096

Tao.5096

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Welp,Thief has stealth and it's a good mechanic for this class - it's squishy, so it needs mobility and somethng extra as mechanic for defense (tho daredevil is done in stupid way).

Mesmer as comparison has

  • Invulnerability(Distortion)
  • Stealth
  • Break-Target skills
  • Aegis (via boon application)
  • Visual noise and cover via Clones (yes, it takes more time to re-target Mesmer than Thief)

Personally, I would choose between Break-Target skills and Stealth - Mesmer despite being a light-armor class, it has quite an amount of cards to protect itself while being engaged in combat, and has also mechanics to escape when fight is not in favor.

Stealth on Guardian or Ranger in case of traps is fine - Ranger Trapper has nothing to protect itself except it's own sustain.Guardian is tricky, but it's not difficult to re-target anyway.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@Tao.5096 said:Welp,Thief has stealth and it's a good mechanic for this class - it's squishy, so it needs mobility and somethng extra as mechanic for defense (tho daredevil is done in stupid way).

Mesmer as comparison has

  • Invulnerability(Distortion)
  • Stealth
  • Break-Target skills
  • Aegis (via boon application)
  • Visual noise and cover via Clones (yes, it takes more time to re-target Mesmer than Thief)

Personally, I would choose between Break-Target skills and Stealth - Mesmer despite being a light-armor class, it has quite an amount of cards to protect itself while being engaged in combat, and has also mechanics to escape when fight is not in favor.

Stealth on Guardian or Ranger in case of traps is fine - Ranger Trapper has nothing to protect itself except it's own sustain.Guardian is tricky, but it's not difficult to re-target anyway.

jesus christ, mesmer has 2 abilities that retarget, 1 is axe that puts him and all clones in melee. and another is RNG 35s cd glorified dodge.I can point out to stupid shit to contradict your point.Thief has

  • superior mobility, more swiftness and teleports.
  • more evade uptime, ALOT more.
  • more CC, immob spam, stun spam.
  • blinds depending on the choices.
  • steal grants slow/chill/fear or plasma that gives regen,prot,stab,resistance as extra def tools.
  • much more cleansing then mesmer.
  • stealth
  • daggerstorm kekW -> preety much disort but also movespeed boost, but also aoe dmg but also can cap nodes.
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