Please make WvW more manual for more player involvement and purpose (less automation)

It would be nice if players are given more manual tasks to do instead of making everything move and upgrade automatically.This gives a sense of purpose and more involvement from players instead of just going in to fight and fight and fight.WvW is great for the variety of activities it gives to players, roaming, scouting, blobbing, havocing etc. and would do good with more manual involvement and less automation.

For example:

• Yaks will not move unless there is at least 1 player beside it to walk and protect the yak
• Keeps and Towers will not upgrade unless there are players manually carrying supplies to the walls/gates to build/upgrade them
• NPC sentries are now removed. The area will be revealed only if at least 1 player is stationed in the sentry circle
• Ruins remain claimed for only a set time (1 hour?) and will return to neutral after and needs to be reclaimed
• Tower sentries will only be active if there is a player stationed in the tower
• Keep waypoints will need to be fueled by players feeding it supplies periodically (30mins?) so that it remains open

etc.

The problem is making the game more player-based, while more interesting, also always favors the side with more players. Its like an RTS, the player who has several dozen workers alive will far outpace the player who only has half of that.

Making the game mode less dependant on siege would be enough, I think.

tournaments neere to happen

I actually agree with you on less automation...

But...its not as simple as less automation = better.

Games like WvW need to be designed to bring opposing forces to compete with each other. If all of your players are allocated to upgrading their own towers and escorting Doyaks, then your opponents are doing the same thing on their side, and you end up with no conflict, because why bother fighting if you have to dedicate all your player resources to upgrading and maintaining your own base?

The keyword here is conflict...

opposing forces need to compete with each other, (usually for some finite resource, in a closed system) so that they can interact and provide content. So long as those basic constituents are there, whether there is automata or not, there will be content.

Right now in WvW, the world is setup so that each base can effectively upgrade and maintain T3 structures without venturing outside of the base. So the only reason people actually venture out into opposing bases is to create content, out of sheer drive to do something other than nothing, and it’s why at times the game can feel boring.

So if you ask me, reducing automation wont really change much. What needs to go down, is a fundamental look at how resources are allocated throughout the mode, create artificial scarcity and so on to drive additional conflicting forces between opponents.

@"Sovereign.1093" said:tournaments neere to happenTournaments never to happen? Cool.

Anyway, the premise of "manual involvement" and those examples is just... wrong. What many of them describe is creating menial tasks and busy work just for the sake of creating menial tasks and busy work that doesnt really involve players. That's not what I would say is "more manual player involvement". It should have a definite purpose or allow you to enhance the game in addition to it's base function, or at least let the players think that they need to do a certain action (like say escort a dolly) in order to achieve a momentary goal (like say the keep was attacked and now need supplies), not just drag it on and on and on and on with just I need to run next to every single dolly on the map or they wont move and I have to do it forever.

To make some other examples, based on the examples in OP:

• Packed dollies is an active tactivator that increase the carrying capacity much more than today for a limited time, but slows down the dolly considerably thus encouraging players to escort (and kill) them.

• Keeps and towers have upgrade paths that players need to decide on, for example such as stronger walls (do you focus your manual defense on the doors?) or a scouting tower (passive scout, but considerably weaker walls and doors).

• NPC sentries sentries no longer reveals, but pings out being attacked on the map and summons guards from the nearest tower/keep to attempt to delay the enemy.

• Ruins are changed to small cappable guard towers that function similar to sentries, but when held also gives additional NPC guards to their linked keeps instead of bloodlust.

• Tower sentry balloon is now a repeatable 2m tactivator on a 20m cd.

• Keep waypoints requires 200 supplies to keep it passively running for 30 minutes, if the keep is lower than this the waypoint shuts off and wont renew until it goes above 200 supplies again.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:tournaments neere to happenTournaments never to happen? Cool.

• Packed dollies is an active tactivator that increase the carrying capacity much more than today for a limited time, but slows down the dolly considerably thus encouraging players to escort (and kill) them.

• Keeps and towers have upgrade paths that players need to decide on, for example such as stronger walls (do you focus your manual defense on the doors?) or a scouting tower (passive scout, but considerably weaker walls and doors).

• NPC sentries sentries no longer reveals, but pings out being attacked on the map and summons guards from the nearest tower/keep to attempt to delay the enemy.

• Ruins are changed to small cappable guard towers that function similar to sentries, but when held also gives additional NPC guards to their linked keeps instead of bloodlust.

• Tower sentry balloon is now a repeatable 2m tactivator on a 20m cd.

• Keep waypoints requires 200 supplies to keep it passively running for 30 minutes, if the keep is lower than this the waypoint shuts off and wont renew until it goes above 200 supplies again.

tournaments must happen :3

@Sovereign.1093 said:tournaments neere to happen

One can only dream!!!

@Loosmaster.8263 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:tournaments neere to happen

hehe indeed.

I don't think we need to waste players' time more, especially when all their work can be undone in 5 minutes by a random blob showing up.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:It would be nice if players are given more manual tasks to do instead of making everything move and upgrade automatically.This gives a sense of purpose and more involvement from players instead of just going in to fight and fight and fight.WvW is great for the variety of activities it gives to players, roaming, scouting, blobbing, havocing etc. and would do good with more manual involvement and less automation.

For example:

• Yaks will not move unless there is at least 1 player beside it to walk and protect the yak
• Keeps and Towers will not upgrade unless there are players manually carrying supplies to the walls/gates to build/upgrade them
• NPC sentries are now removed. The area will be revealed only if at least 1 player is stationed in the sentry circle
• Ruins remain claimed for only a set time (1 hour?) and will return to neutral after and needs to be reclaimed
• Tower sentries will only be active if there is a player stationed in the tower
• Keep waypoints will need to be fueled by players feeding it supplies periodically (30mins?) so that it remains open

etc.

What are your proposed hourly pay rates and rewards for doing this highly boring “manual involvement”?

maybe need to return to the old system of paying for upgrades and orkers building as supply comes in, maybe use a WvW currency for the upgrades. Also buff the npcs

In an open world pvp game with claimable structures where pvp and gvg didn't mean leaving a game mode I'd be fine with guilds and pubs having to organize more. This is a separate mode which is time away from another mode that's already filled with daily tasks and these days I'm lucky to get into one good large scale fight per a night that lasts more than an minute.

If I wanted to do an escort mission, supply carrying or something like that, there are plenty options in pve. Sorry but this is a terrible idea in my opinion. Wvw should be interesting without any forced manual labor. Good balance, good population, alliances (lol) and better rewards can manage that.

The yes answer should also include focus on fights. It is counterintuitive, but automation kills fights because automation allows upgrades to happen without anyone logging in. Automation rewards players who don't fight for their upgrades. Then you get players complaining about no one fighting because of their T3 structures.

(Yaks not moving unless escorted seems a bit too extreme though. Just require manual approval of upgrades.)

Sounds bad in my opinion. Instead of enjoying fights people will be spending their time doing boring work to upgrade structures (and all of their work will be undone in moments by blobs.)

I don't think this sounds like a very good way to keep the declining playerbase interested in WvW.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The keyword here is conflict...

opposing forces need to compete with each other, (usually for some finite resource, in a closed system) so that they can interact and provide content. So long as those basic constituents are there, whether there is automata or not, there will be content.

Right now in WvW, the world is setup so that each base can effectively upgrade and maintain T3 structures without venturing outside of the base. So the only reason people actually venture out into opposing bases is to create content, out of sheer drive to do something other than nothing, and it’s why at times the game can feel boring.

So if you ask me, reducing automation wont really change much. What needs to go down, is a fundamental look at how resources are allocated throughout the mode, create artificial scarcity and so on to drive additional conflicting forces between opponents.

Hmm, there needs to be more incentive to enter enemy territory yes. Maybe we should make the base rate of upgrading slower, but you could make it faster by pillaging something from the enemy side and bringing it back. Or be able to steal dolyaks, I dunno.

Also supply isn't scarce enough and becomes a non-issue if you have too many people. Maybe supply could decay passively on players and structures over time.

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The keyword here is conflict...

opposing forces need to compete with each other, (usually for some finite resource, in a closed system) so that they can interact and provide content. So long as those basic constituents are there, whether there is automata or not, there will be content.

Right now in WvW, the world is setup so that each base can effectively upgrade and maintain T3 structures without venturing outside of the base. So the only reason people actually venture out into opposing bases is to create content, out of sheer drive to do something other than nothing, and it’s why at times the game can feel boring.

So if you ask me, reducing automation wont really change much. What needs to go down, is a fundamental look at how resources are allocated throughout the mode, create artificial scarcity and so on to drive additional conflicting forces between opponents.

A feasible change would be to just place camps in a different area. If all camps are in the center of the map for example, then all parties must meet in the center to claim resources, and are forced to confront each other.

This is one of the more basic examples, and I’m sure there’s other ways to go about it, just have to be clever enough with the design of how you can create conflict really.

devs can make it so that the last 25% of the remaining period of the skirmish, all gates keeps walls open. that would be fun.

id like an event even pve where you build stuff but at the last minute, all npcs turn against you and you need to punish them.

think about reverse building.

minds hazy, baby locked right now so cant think much but would be fun.

In the end, the same 10 people who now rebuild walls, flip camps, make friends/demoralize mercenary camps, will be the ones taking on these new tasks.

Just last night, the enemy was hot to take mendons. We fought them off several times, but once the enemy retreated, our zerg was off leaving two of us to run supply to fix the walls. Luckily, we were able to do so before a roaming group or zerg came to take the camp on their way to mendons again. I've literally spent hours running supply to fix walls, when our zerg leaves gaping holes in our walls. And I am not talking about sm.

I would love to see some sort of tactic disabler, like to have one that allows you to channel a radar-bypasser that ignores the Marked mechanic for Watchtower/Sentry for X minutes. Give it a long channel time, a cooldown per person, and perhaps a certain number of charges so zergs can't totally abuse it.

Perhaps there could instead be a new banner that allows for stuff like that, like granting immunity to radar detection to x people within x radius, along with other stuff like Dolyak Interceptor and Dolyak Reinforcer skills. Skills with zero combat relevance but actual practical skills to help your server succeed. Make it actually worth defending, and worth killing by giving a bonus to those who kill the banner carrier. In general, it would be nice to see stuff become more engaging and less fire-and-forget.

I would have voted yes based on the thread title/concept, but OP's examples are just bad . . .

So who here volunteers to do all this? This proposal is way overboard.

Most players playing a few hours a day aren't going to waste their play time on running supply for some place that can be lost in the time they're not on and thus wasting their efforts, the only places of worth are the keeps for their waypoints. I'll also note this system is even worse than the original system, which had problems getting people to upgrade and scout places in the first place, it required dedicated home defense players to do it, who lost gold, gained little wxp, little respect, or little gratitude for that work.

Stand in a sentry spot to have the sentry active? why? if a player is already in that area they can already scout report in map or team chat, same goes for requiring someone for watch tower to be active, if there's a player there they can report. Hey guys let me jump into that sentry spot as the zerg is capping it so it can activate the scouting on the map! Some automation needs to exist, not everyone wants to play a walking or standing around simulator.

There's a few things I wouldn't mind happening, change upgrading to requiring someone to start it every tier like the old days. Take out watch tower tactic from the game, start using target painters more often. Take out t3 fortified walls and gate strength and permanently have t2 reinforced strength, that should cut out the people complaining about t3 structures and those complaining about automated upgrades. T3 should still exist and used to make guards and lords stronger.

If you want players to manually do everything they should be reasonably rewarded for it too.

I really like this idea to split ppl

I would love also :1) Nighttime that you have to defend your Captured areas from Zombies . The more areas you have captured , more hardly are to defend them .The enemy makes takes advantage of it , and help the zombies

Or2) As the match progress and a clear Winner will show up that have captured most bases , he would automatically be titled as ''Conqueror'' .The 2 lesser servers will choose either a) ''Rebels'' , b) ''Nobles''

The commander from the ''Conquerors'' , creates area-marks on the map where any of his teammates can go and offer visibility to his server for 30 sec (just like using the Scouts in Age of Empires , to scout the area) .The commander uses as mana pool , his 4:30-next-Points-that-goes-to-unlock-reward-tracksIf his scouts manages to get in 20 places withought been killed , then the commander will take back 100% of the Points .If his scouts hit (not kill) a ''Rebel'' , they(rebel) wont be able to participate in a 'Sack the Captured Point'' - (we will talk about later) .If ''Nobles'' help the ''Rebels'' with ''Suplies Boons'' in a area that is revealed by Conquers (x20 times) , then the Conquer Commander will get more Track-point-resourses + Their Server will get 50 WvWvW points next turn + a free Suply Deposit from Nobles

''Nobles'' can see all 'Rebels'' player , on the World map as black dotsThey can drop ''Suplies Boons'' (stockpile of crates )in a 2500 yard area (Or in the center of a hexagon-block area) , where the Rebels Unlock F5+ F6 (Refresh cds + Endure Pain at 50% for 6 sec ) .If Rebel manages to capture a Conquers base or kill an enemy , then they become vanuable pawns , geting a gold aura around their small black dot icon on the world map . A small portion WvWvW points will be go to''Nobles'' , whom helped the Rebels with ''Suply Boons''If ''Rebels'' 'Sack the Captured Point'' (talk about later) of a''Nobles'' building , then they wont show up in their Map > so they wont get any help (Suplies Boons) from them .If ''Nobles'' doesnt get discovered > cast ''Suplies Boons'' in a area that is affected by 30 sec reveal and the person that get boons captures somethng in 3 min > or if their Rebel pawn manages to kill the Conquer scout , then they get bonus WvWvW Score Points from their own Buildings + their Buildings have more HPIf they discovered x20 times they loose a Suply Deposit .

''Rebels'' have F7 > Superspeed on low cdTheir Siesge engines dont cost Supplies to be craftedTheir siege does 1300% more damageThey cannot capture a base/keep/castle , but only ask ransom for :'Sack the Captured Point'' > downgrade it to lvl 1 after of 2 min (let democrats get it more easily+ you get points if they captured it in 10 min).''Extorsion'' > ask 100 WvWvW points to not obliterate it ('Sack the Captured Point'' ) . The Conquers have 2 min to respond (sent the scouts you fool)'Beg '' = mostly to be used in ''Nobles'' buildings that offer silver + small amount of WvWvW Points , no need to wait for a timer +gain their trust or get the gold aura around you black dot (to be Booned in the future)

@Solitude.2097 said:Nighttime that you have to defend your Captured areas from Zombies .That is how it works today.

Nobody ever wins.

we already have this non automated tournament map - Edge Of The Mist.