Will Charr become hostile again once dragons are gone? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Will Charr become hostile again once dragons are gone?

Bron.9647Bron.9647 Member ✭✭

I've been thinking about this for a few days and I feel like the way the Charr society is structured, they NEED an enemy to focus on. In Guild Wars 1 it was the humans, now it's the dragons, but who will it be when the dragons are no longer a threat? Will Charr again become hostile and seek to expand their territory? Bangar Ruinbringer going after Jormag is merely the most recent example of this and he probably felt the Charr needed a common foe in order to promote cohesion among Charr society and to allow him to gain more influence among the Charr. The only way I don't see the Charr becoming hostile again once the threat of the dragons is gone is if their society goes through some radical changes, like how the Olmakhan have a completely different societal structure and now seem fairly peaceful. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

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  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bron.9647 said:
    I've been thinking about this for a few days and I feel like the way the Charr society is structured, they NEED an enemy to focus on. In Guild Wars 1 it was the humans, now it's the dragons, but who will it be when the dragons are no longer a threat? Will Charr again become hostile and seek to expand their territory? Bangar Ruinbringer going after Jormag is merely the most recent example of this and he probably felt the Charr needed a common foe in order to promote cohesion among Charr society and to allow him to gain more influence among the Charr. The only way I don't see the Charr becoming hostile again once the threat of the dragons is gone is if their society goes through some radical changes, like how the Olmakhan have a completely different societal structure and now seem fairly peaceful. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

    My theory is that the charr form the primary Tyrian race that harvests aether and generates the most torment. Their warlike disposition is unlikely to change, despite the Omalkhan and Scorchrazer (?) demonstrating that at least some charr can live in harmony.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2020

    lack of foes is the last worries that a fantasy plot have, its can be just a new foe arrive like a "mists creature" or something like that, even a new god can goes on "balthazar mode" again.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • It will make a heck of a new story imagine if there is no dragon threat anymore and races start to fight each other and blame each other for various reasons all old alliances will be broken and then OPEN WORLD PVP hahaha. we could have a system that a players would speak to an NPC and declare which race would like to support and when he or she enters open wolrd could become OVERT which means he could be attacked by another OVERT player . If he or she does not like to enter the open world in that state could speak to the NPC and become COVERT..

    That would revitilise the game i believe and fun things will happen :D

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Redavv.2643 said:
    It will make a heck of a new story imagine if there is no dragon threat anymore and races start to fight each other and blame each other for various reasons all old alliances will be broken and then OPEN WORLD PVP hahaha. we could have a system that a players would speak to an NPC and declare which race would like to support and when he or she enters open wolrd could become OVERT which means he could be attacked by another OVERT player . If he or she does not like to enter the open world in that state could speak to the NPC and become COVERT..

    That would revitilise the game i believe and fun things will happen :D

    Anet barely can implement the "joko invasion of Tyria".

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Some Charr are just stuck in their old ways so yes there are Charr who will become hostile again when the greater threat is dealt with, we're already seeing this in game now with Bangar.

    There are other Charr though who've become less Charr like in many ways like Rytlock who has shown disdain for many aspects of his own culture that he simply doesnt like or agrees with.
    The real question is how is this outcome going to end..
    Will Bangar succeed and keep the wheel of war going resulting in the needless deaths of many Charr for generations..
    Or will the more progressive Charr like Rytlock rise up, kill the old Charr ways and reform their culture into one that can survive in a more unified world.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They can’t become 100% hostile because of player charr. But depending on how this story unfolds (namely if Bangar lives and if the blood legion comes out of this with an army still), I could see them trying to end the legion system, establish a “blood Empire”, and try to subdue the other races. Before the Icebrood Saga started I had always thought jormag would be one plot line and then the blood legion homelands would be an entire other expansion

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2020

    I know some charr mains who are waiting on the day... mice watch your backs! jk jk

    As far as i can tell there are plenty of NPC charr who still dont like other races regardless of how often they might be forced to work with them they would just prefer not to be around them. I think you dont have to worry about charr who join groups like the vigil and priory etc as they have already left the charr life style and culture behind to do their own thing. Even if they dont like some other races i dont think they would go hostile to them. Its the common charr who still live among the legions that you really have to worry about if any. This is shown in the blood legion homelands (grothmar) especially. Because they have been living mostly in solitude away from other races (i want to assume for the most part) and are still attuned to that base style of culture of not liking the other races.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    You say that, and yet I vividly remember going to Bjora and meeting a Charr who refused to follow Jhavi specifically because she was a Norn. The Charr in question was raised to hate the false gods and saw little difference between Jormag and the Raven Spirit, the way that the Charr teach each other makes them incapable of nuance in many situations. In Maguuma the first one to suggest leaving the Sylvari to die and focusing on their own defense was coincidentally the Charr engineer Explorer Metella. To me not only could the Charr in the Pact turn, they are the most likely ones to turn along with the male Norn.

    Joining the Pact or living in Lions Arch does not, and never has, stripped the Charr of their cultural identity. They can follow it right into the mouth of madness if they desire.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2020

    U guys are stretching to much.

    Charr ways are needed for world equilibrium, theyre not a error to be fixed, theyre just the contrary, theyre a fix to the chaotic world like Tyria was.

    Without "Charr way" there barely a functional Vigil, for example. Almorra is who called for a Pact have a hierarchy in Personal History, then is when a marshall rank is born.

    Also races features wasnt randomly droped on lore, the writers know what theyre doing specially those who wrote personal history.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2020

    There is no 'equilibrium' to attempted genocide and slavery, a crime that the Charr do not commit just to other races, but often to their own. Their society is, in the words of Shaman Ninukab, a hellscape. Whether they can move beyond that is to be seen.

    The Charr did not invent the concept of warriors either, they merely emphasize them. The Vigil is founded by a Charr, but it is not emblematic of the Charr, to the contrary the Vigil exists in spite of Legion doctrine,

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2020

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Joining the Pact or living in Lions Arch does not, and never has, stripped the Charr of their cultural identity. They can follow it right into the mouth of madness if they desire.

    I disagree with the "living in Lion's Arch" part of this. The primary source of charr cultural identity comes from the Legions. The charr in the Pact that are anti-"false gods" come from the High Legions. While there is dialogue of some charr sending their children to the High Legions' fahrars, this isn't universal. While they may not be as peace loving as the Olmakhan, the charr of Lion's Arch would be largely growing up without the military structure of the High Legions, with no warband, but with family and inter-racial friends and neighbors.

    This creates a drastically different nurturing environment than the fahrars of the High Legions that develops the "religion hate" and "charr above others" mentality.

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    There is no 'equilibrium' to attempted genocide and slavery, a crime that the Charr do not commit just to other races, but often to their own. Their society is, in the words of Shaman Ninukab, a hellscape. Whether they can move beyond that is to be seen.

    This is false. The charr do not use slavery anymore - they have prisoners of war and labor camps for their prisoners (of war or otherwise), which is a vastly different situation. In GW1, their PoWs were treated as well as slaves, but the only mention of slavery in charr history comes from their initial conquest of the lands that would be Ascalon, in which they enslaved (or dispersed) grawl. And with the human PoWs, they were set free early on during the peace talks.

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  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    There is no 'equilibrium' to attempted genocide and slavery, a crime that the Charr do not commit just to other races, but often to their own. Their society is, in the words of Shaman Ninukab, a hellscape. Whether they can move beyond that is to be seen.

    The Charr did not invent the concept of warriors either, they merely emphasize them. The Vigil is founded by a Charr, but it is not emblematic of the Charr, to the contrary the Vigil exists in spite of Legion doctrine,

    You had a notable fixation of carrying real world political theories to a fantasy lore. this is wishful thinking. and in real world they flaws too, politics is almost grey area, not totally "black or white". Just remembering that the United States was the country most reluctant to end the slavery and they needed a civil war to resolve the impasse. the last countries to abolish slavery in that order was: United States(1863) cuba(1886) Brazil(1888). In Brazil a common argument often used to defend slavery was, "If Americans can have a slave, so can we, because America is an exemplary country for the world."

    Also, in personal history and in other parts of lore, there efforts to writers to show that every race had vicious or "dumbness", with some bits of black humour for example, Asura is presented as prone to torture in name of science.

    Inquest Technician: Let me out! This hurts! I don't want to die here!
    Elite Inquest Operative: Stop whining. I need these results, and in case you haven't noticed, we're running out of time.
    Elite Inquest Operative: Yes, the experiment will probably kill you. But it will also advance the Inquest's march toward total world domination.
    Elite Inquest Operative: Subject 6 is nearly ready. Now pipe down and take your medicine. Some of us intend to survive this fiasco.
    Elite Inquest Operative: Wait! you can't slime me to death. I'm your creator! Aaaah!
    Dessa Observation Mode: Look out! That so-called Subject 6 is loose.
    Dessa Observation Mode: It seems to be of the ooze family, but radically mutated. Even more caustic, corrosive, and calamitous than usual.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thaumanova_Reactor_Fractal

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2020

    I would struggle to describe the way that Charr treat their prisoners in, for example Scourgejaw Vault are forced to work while being beaten with whips and hammers for 'motivation' as penance for their crimes against the High Legions as anything other then slavery. Now you might say they 'deserve' that kind of treatment for being criminals or that it's 'better' then the other possible sentence of fighting to death in the Bane, or that it's only temporary so it's not really a form of slave owning, but I reject that last notion entirely. They're owned by the state, and they have no room to disobey, they simply work until the Legions tell them they don't need to work anymore, if ever. You can call that penal labor, or 'unfree labor' if you want, but i'v always found the distinction as dubious at best.

    I half agree with the assessment of Lions Arch Charr. There are some, like Tybalt Leftpaw, who left their society entirely for the Arch and have abandoned much or most of that cultural identity to find a new family there. However at the same time Charr who live in Lions Arch don't suddenly lose all patriotism for their country anymore then someone from France automatically loses all love for the French by moving into the United States. This might be as minor as maintaining a distrust for false gods or believing in the value of a hard military structure, as major as working as an agent for the Legions in Lions Arch in the way I suspect Evon Gnashblade is judging by the Black Lion traders at the Ash Legion camp in Grothmar supporting Malice, or in it's most extreme cases actively subverting the Lions Arch like Captain Grimjaw tried to do in order to earn the status of Tribune back at the Citadel.

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    There is no 'equilibrium' to attempted genocide and slavery, a crime that the Charr do not commit just to other races, but often to their own. Their society is, in the words of Shaman Ninukab, a hellscape. Whether they can move beyond that is to be seen.

    The Charr did not invent the concept of warriors either, they merely emphasize them. The Vigil is founded by a Charr, but it is not emblematic of the Charr, to the contrary the Vigil exists in spite of Legion doctrine,

    You had a notable fixation of carrying real world political theories to a fantasy lore. this is wishful thinking. and in real world they flaws too, politics is almost grey area, not totally "black or white". Just remembering that the United States was the country most reluctant to end the slavery and they needed a civil war to resolve the impasse. the last countries to abolish slavery in that order was: United States(1863) cuba(1886) Brazil(1888). In Brazil a common argument often used to defend slavery was, "If Americans can have a slave, so can we, because America is an exemplary country for the world."

    Also, in personal history and in other parts of lore, there efforts to writers to show that every race had vicious or "dumbness", with some bits of black humour for example, Asura is presented as prone to torture in name of science.

    Inquest Technician: Let me out! This hurts! I don't want to die here!
    Elite Inquest Operative: Stop whining. I need these results, and in case you haven't noticed, we're running out of time.
    Elite Inquest Operative: Yes, the experiment will probably kill you. But it will also advance the Inquest's march toward total world domination.
    Elite Inquest Operative: Subject 6 is nearly ready. Now pipe down and take your medicine. Some of us intend to survive this fiasco.
    Elite Inquest Operative: Wait! you can't slime me to death. I'm your creator! Aaaah!
    Dessa Observation Mode: Look out! That so-called Subject 6 is loose.
    Dessa Observation Mode: It seems to be of the ooze family, but radically mutated. Even more caustic, corrosive, and calamitous than usual.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thaumanova_Reactor_Fractal

    I carry real world political theories into Guild Wars because the developers actively talk about real world political theories in the game world. The Sylvari are noted to live a privileged life in a scarcity free society, a character outright states that Divinity's Reach suffers as a pure Monarchy that is a smokescreen for an Oligarchy that creates crippling wealth inequality, for crying out loud the last raid we did ended with an Asura suggesting the Djinn adopt a 'Timocracy like Istan'. The developers are not only aware of this parallels to real world governmental systems but actively go out of their way to explore them, and in this case it is really, really, REALLY hard not to notice the parallels to fascism. I swear to you, I was five seconds away from thinking Bangar was about to break into 'Tomorrow belongs to me' at the end Bound by Blood.

    The red/black color scheme and resemblance to Scar really isn't helping.

    While the point of every race having flaws is valid, these flaws are not inherently 'equal' to one another. I would not, for example, say the Sylvari have problems that are nearly as severe as the sheer amount of incompetence and evil that the Asura Arcane Council is capable of. Part of why I find the Icebrood Saga interesting is we're exploring two races who find the idea of good and evil as something that's subjective, and we're seeing the kind of damage that the kind of people with a mentality like 'victory at any cost' can cause.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bron.9647 said:
    I've been thinking about this for a few days and I feel like the way the Charr society is structured, they NEED an enemy to focus on.

    That's pretty much the entire pretense of Bound by Blood prologue, and we're basically seeing what happens when the charr don't have any more enemies to fight. Bangar "going after Jormag" isn't the most recent example, it's the outcome of what ends up happening. With no common enemy to fight, he's seeing old enemies turned allies as enemies again, and sees them as having an overwhelming advantage (charr divided into four, the "enemy" has an Elder Dragon ally) so he's pushing to reunite the four Legions and tame his own Elder Dragon.

    In effect, when faced with no enemies, they make an enemy. And this ends up dividing the charr race between those who can move on from needing an enemy, and those who can't (who've mostly joined Bangar and the Renegades by this point).

    If you have a Blood Legion character it makes the initial story basically reveal earlier on how off his rocker Bangar is. "I didn't think you'd aim an Elder Dragon at YOUR OWN LEGION! NOW I NEED TO GET MY OWN!"

    Let's forgive the fact that we don't "own" Aurene.

    Charr hero saving the entire world irrespective of people but just randomly decided man my own legion sucks! Coming back to my peoples ancestral homelands after being invited by my Imperator I've decided to suddenly attack my own people! Yeah!

    Come on man.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bron.9647 said:
    I've been thinking about this for a few days and I feel like the way the Charr society is structured, they NEED an enemy to focus on.

    That's pretty much the entire pretense of Bound by Blood prologue, and we're basically seeing what happens when the charr don't have any more enemies to fight. Bangar "going after Jormag" isn't the most recent example, it's the outcome of what ends up happening. With no common enemy to fight, he's seeing old enemies turned allies as enemies again, and sees them as having an overwhelming advantage (charr divided into four, the "enemy" has an Elder Dragon ally) so he's pushing to reunite the four Legions and tame his own Elder Dragon.

    In effect, when faced with no enemies, they make an enemy. And this ends up dividing the charr race between those who can move on from needing an enemy, and those who can't (who've mostly joined Bangar and the Renegades by this point).

    If you have a Blood Legion character it makes the initial story basically reveal earlier on how off his rocker Bangar is. "I didn't think you'd aim an Elder Dragon at YOUR OWN LEGION! NOW I NEED TO GET MY OWN!"

    Let's forgive the fact that we don't "own" Aurene.

    Charr hero saving the entire world irrespective of people but just randomly decided man my own legion sucks! Coming back to my peoples ancestral homelands after being invited by my Imperator I've decided to suddenly attack my own people! Yeah!

    Come on man.

    Given what happens at the start of the blood legion story? i could 100% see the PC challenging Bangar for control, you did challenge and defeat your warbands leader for control of your band, that will never happen because of the implications, but Rytlock should have just stabbed him in his office and seized control.

    As ive found out from my own time over seas serving in the military, it changes how you view your country and people. My views of my home nation have changed -alot- and i disapprove of alot of things they do. Do i have to support them right now? Yes because im still active, but i dont have to and i dont like it.

    The PC may have experienced the same thing, especially because they got sent away by the high legions.. Their time away with the Pact, and their time with all the other peoples of Tyria, taking down 3 Elder Dragons, Facing a Fallen god more than once, dying to said fallen god, coming back and then killing that fallen god, taking on and killing Joko, the last mursaat, along with numerous other villians as well as MAKING a freaking Elder Dragon would probably change how you view your people to.

    But Bangar regardless has lost his bloody mind.

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  • @Loesh.4697 said:
    I would struggle to describe the way that Charr treat their prisoners in, for example Scourgejaw Vault are forced to work while being beaten with whips and hammers for 'motivation' as penance for their crimes against the High Legions as anything other then slavery.

    Then prison and labor camps throughout human history, even as recent as a few decades ago and no doubt even in modern time, is slavery by your terminology. By your terminology, the United States had slavery during WWII.

    Most people would disagree with you. Bad conditions? Sure, but slavery? No. After all, once they serve their sentence (assuming not life sentence), they'd be free.

    I half agree with the assessment of Lions Arch Charr. There are some, like Tybalt Leftpaw, who left their society entirely for the Arch and have abandoned much or most of that cultural identity to find a new family there. However at the same time Charr who live in Lions Arch don't suddenly lose all patriotism for their country anymore then someone from France automatically loses all love for the French by moving into the United States. This might be as minor as maintaining a distrust for false gods or believing in the value of a hard military structure, as major as working as an agent for the Legions in Lions Arch in the way I suspect Evon Gnashblade is judging by the Black Lion traders at the Ash Legion camp in Grothmar supporting Malice, or in it's most extreme cases actively subverting the Lions Arch like Captain Grimjaw tried to do in order to earn the status of Tribune back at the Citadel.

    I am more talking about those who grew up in Lion's Arch (which has been housing charr for ~100 years, more than a full generation lifespan), not those who abandoned the Legions due to being outcasted as gladium like Tybalt, and certainly not counting Evon Gnashblade who is a confirmed Ash Legion spy - or Grimjaw - and thus in all reason are not "Lion's Arch charr".

    And while I did state that there are a few - and by all evidence they're in the minority - who do have that patriotism, those that got pointed out are likely also High Legion soldiers on a distanced mission or the like, similar to Evon.

    Those who grew up in Lion's Arch will, however, not have any loyalties to the High Legions. And why should they? They grew up separate from them, just like the Olmakhan. The "charr homelands" are unknown to them. Just like how I, a third generation American, have zero care or revelance for Italy, Ireland, or Germany - and neither do my parents.

    And we've seen Lion's Arch charr who have no hatred of gods, nor hatred of other races.

    Point being, evidence suggests that the charr's violent nature is, in fact, merely nurture born from the culture of the High Legions.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    Aaron pretty much stated what I was going to say, in the United States whether prison labor counts as slavery is actually a pretty hotly debated topic and generally speaking we don't whip our prisoners in the States.

    For the second part I agree with the assessment that the High Legions conditioning is to blame for their mentality, the issues are sociological not biological. But even among Charr who grew up in Lions Arch I find it hard to believe that Legion culture was just abandoned in it's entirety, that kind of disassociation isn't universal(Or even common.) for groups of people who lived in a different place from their homeland for generations, hell it's not even capable of people who have lived there for thousands. I certainly have the exact opposite experience given my cultural background, and that goes the same for other minority groups i'v talked to in the states.

    But regardless my point was in general, not merely among Charr who have been there for over a hundred years.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2020

    Also we should note that Charr are heavily modeled after Roman Empire, what is evident in their names and their hierarchy, that kind "patriotsm" that emerged in WW1 and WW2 era is another completely different(and short) history. The only discrepancy is their disdain of gods, while Roman Empire culture was very religious society... Roman empire was basically a "civil religion society".

    In this make sense that they have some sort of militaristic and "harsh world views" culture because it was basically what is thought of the Roman empire. Throw at them(and at Tyria society in general) values debated only in XX century is a case of historical anacronism. If charr are fascists, it is like saying that the whole Han Chinese empire was fascist, all European monarchies, or even Aztec Indians. Also worth mention that every civilization, specially the older ones thinks themself as the "center of world".

    historical anachronism is risky, and the discourse that "bad cultures" exist even worse. One of the most prominent promoters of this was Winston Churchill, who was a notorious racist(research what he thought of Indians, and chemical weapon attacks on the Arabs). Winston Churchill is the biggest spreader of the idea that the German problem was an inherently bad culture, and so the solution would be to exterminate them or reduce it to poverty at levels of underdeveloped countries.

    Nor is it anything special, or need to stretch too much, it's just a repeat of a common fantasy genre plot:

    • the warrior race (orcs),
    • the magicians (elfs),
    • the inventors that overcompesate their small size being genius(dwarfs),
    • and the wildcard / can be anything / forever divided+weak cuz they like to walk circles in politics: (humans).

    Ironically in the World of Warcraft exists a "Bangar", with the difference that he is human, he is the Admiral Proudmoore. In the plot, he believes the Orc race is inherently destined to be evil because of "culture" or whatsover, and so he think it is better to exterminate them. Like i predicted the Bangar plot in GW2 borrow some elements from that lore, we have our Admiral Proudmoore(Bangar) and our potential Jaina Proudmoore(Crecia Stoneglow). This role could be also in part attributed to Caudecus and his daughter too.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    It's not modeled on just the Roman Empire however, it draws heavily from the Mongolians, and in this case it's more modern military culture is drawing heavily on Fascist ideologies, it's not like the Romans themselves weren't the basis for fascist ideals in any capacity regardless. There is a very good reason why Mussolini wanted to invoke a lot of what Rome had built for his imperial ambitions.

    Likewise the notion that a culture cannot be evil or destructive just because a prominent racist like Winston Churchill believed in the idea is silly, a lot of different cultures thought other nations had destructive tendencies and to varying degrees they were correct. I certainly don't believe my own peoples tradition of drinking snake bile and consuming raw hearts to prove their manhood is even slightly healthy, to the opposite, it speaks to a nation that needs a person to constantly improve their masculinity. That's alienating and self destructive, and in the case of certain nations similar ideals have lead to belief systems that resulted in heinous crimes against their neighbors as well as themselves.

    I'm going to take a quote from General Morghan in Nightfall here 'All war is an atrocity' and few are more through in their interpretation of evil then the Charr legions. As the Olmakhan themselves point out, in the absence of humanity they would continue to fight and kill anyone they encountered because their entire society was based on warfare and domination, to anyone with eyes the Charr were their own worst enemies and when everything else on Tyria was dead they would then exterminate each other until nothing was left. This is not a healthy way to run a society, this isn't even a sane way to run a society.

    I don't think Arenanet is ignorant of the fact the Charr have made the centerpiece of their society that atrocity. Rytlock is the first in a new generation of Charr who question the old ways, the constant need to hate and kill the 'other' for their own personal gain and to sequester their children into military camps to fuel a war machine, and his ideologies are coming to a head with Bangar who is practically the embodiment of Legion psychosis and paranoia. It benefits Bangar to perpetuate these systems to keep himself in power and continue this nonsense 'tradition' of fighting and killing one another for rank and might makes right, he's an animal entirely driven by rage, hatred, and most importantly fear.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    It's not modeled on just the Roman Empire however, it draws heavily from the Mongolians, and in this case it's more modern military culture is drawing heavily on Fascist ideologies, it's not like the Romans themselves weren't the basis for fascist ideals in any capacity regardless. There is a very good reason why Mussolini wanted to invoke a lot of what Rome had built for his imperial ambitions.

    Also don't forget the eagle standards carried by the Roman legions were co-opted by the kitten. Yet another cool bit of heraldry ruined by that period of history.

    I agree that Rytlock and Bangar seem to be set up as possible future vs. clinging to the old ways. I also like that this has been something of a slow burn set up by the writers. And it isn't just about the Olmakhan either; we hear in Grothmar that parents checking in on their cubs is a regular occurrence, so there's likely a long-simmering discomfort with the Legion structure, even for charr who aren't quite as outside their system as Rytlock or the Olmakhan (or any of the Pact charr who genuinely like and respect their non-charr colleagues).

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    It's not modeled on just the Roman Empire however, it draws heavily from the Mongolians, and in this case it's more modern military culture is drawing heavily on Fascist ideologies, it's not like the Romans themselves weren't the basis for fascist ideals in any capacity regardless. There is a very good reason why Mussolini wanted to invoke a lot of what Rome had built for his imperial ambitions.

    Also don't forget the eagle standards carried by the Roman legions were co-opted by the kitten. Yet another cool bit of heraldry ruined by that period of history.

    I agree that Rytlock and Bangar seem to be set up as possible future vs. clinging to the old ways. I also like that this has been something of a slow burn set up by the writers. And it isn't just about the Olmakhan either; we hear in Grothmar that parents checking in on their cubs is a regular occurrence, so there's likely a long-simmering discomfort with the Legion structure, even for charr who aren't quite as outside their system as Rytlock or the Olmakhan (or any of the Pact charr who genuinely like and respect their non-charr colleagues).

    Pretty much, I generally put the blame for Charr society being this way on the higher ups, not on the grunts. By and large the rank and file of the Legions are a lot more empathetic then their tribunes and Centurions would probably like. Grothmar isn't even the first time we've had hints of Charr cubs being a particular sticking point for their people, we had stories about it as early as the core game.

    TL:DR: Ever since the Ebonhawke ceasefire this has been a long time coming, something had to break eventually.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Redavv.2643 said:
    It will make a heck of a new story imagine if there is no dragon threat anymore and races start to fight each other and blame each other for various reasons all old alliances will be broken and then OPEN WORLD PVP hahaha. we could have a system that a players would speak to an NPC and declare which race would like to support and when he or she enters open wolrd could become OVERT which means he could be attacked by another OVERT player . If he or she does not like to enter the open world in that state could speak to the NPC and become COVERT..

    That would revitilise the game i believe and fun things will happen :D

    it would completely kill the game. Openworld PVP is the worst thing that could happen to gw2.

    I mean, WvW is a thing. But I get what you mean. If it were confined to certain areas it wouldn't be so bad.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I doubt we will ever get as far as to see what awaits "after the dragons." They need to start from scratch if they want to turn the wheel around. Of course, I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. ;) Those upcoming scrying pool vision stories sound hopeful...

    (Off to playing Pillars of Eternity until the next content patch.)

  • @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Redavv.2643 said:
    It will make a heck of a new story imagine if there is no dragon threat anymore and races start to fight each other and blame each other for various reasons all old alliances will be broken and then OPEN WORLD PVP hahaha. we could have a system that a players would speak to an NPC and declare which race would like to support and when he or she enters open wolrd could become OVERT which means he could be attacked by another OVERT player . If he or she does not like to enter the open world in that state could speak to the NPC and become COVERT..

    That would revitilise the game i believe and fun things will happen :D

    it would completely kill the game. Openworld PVP is the worst thing that could happen to gw2.

    I mean, WvW is a thing. But I get what you mean. If it were confined to certain areas it wouldn't be so bad.

    it is already confind to certain areas. Alpine Borderlands (2x), Desert Borderland, Eternal Battlegrounds, Edge of the mists, Obsidian Sanctum.

  • @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Redavv.2643 said:
    It will make a heck of a new story imagine if there is no dragon threat anymore and races start to fight each other and blame each other for various reasons all old alliances will be broken and then OPEN WORLD PVP hahaha. we could have a system that a players would speak to an NPC and declare which race would like to support and when he or she enters open wolrd could become OVERT which means he could be attacked by another OVERT player . If he or she does not like to enter the open world in that state could speak to the NPC and become COVERT..

    That would revitilise the game i believe and fun things will happen :D

    it would completely kill the game. Openworld PVP is the worst thing that could happen to gw2.

    I mean, WvW is a thing. But I get what you mean. If it were confined to certain areas it wouldn't be so bad.

    WvW isn't really "open world PvP", since there's nothing to do in WvW except PvP objectives.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bron.9647 said:
    I've been thinking about this for a few days and I feel like the way the Charr society is structured, they NEED an enemy to focus on.

    That's pretty much the entire pretense of Bound by Blood prologue, and we're basically seeing what happens when the charr don't have any more enemies to fight. Bangar "going after Jormag" isn't the most recent example, it's the outcome of what ends up happening. With no common enemy to fight, he's seeing old enemies turned allies as enemies again, and sees them as having an overwhelming advantage (charr divided into four, the "enemy" has an Elder Dragon ally) so he's pushing to reunite the four Legions and tame his own Elder Dragon.

    In effect, when faced with no enemies, they make an enemy. And this ends up dividing the charr race between those who can move on from needing an enemy, and those who can't (who've mostly joined Bangar and the Renegades by this point).

    I suspect that Bangar understood this. He knows that he is the only important leader not able to change, in contrast with Rhytlock, Crecia, Smodur, Malice who are (Smodur and Malice at least in appearance) favorable to a change in the Charr mentality. Even the Flame Legion leaders are more inclined to find peace than to fight. He accepted in his inner self that the times changed and the Charrs need to give up the old ways - aka war with any enemy, real or invented. But he cannot simply leave the scene. He seeks an end fitted with his reputation - fighting to the end against "the enemy".

    @Dante.1763 said:

    I predict that for the most all the Charr that -need- an enemy to focus on will follow Bangar. Theyll either end up being converted to Jormags minions(and killed), or see the error of their ways in the end when they realize its not the way forward for their species as a whole(probably unlikely, i totally see the vast majority getting killed off in this saga due to Bangar.). Leaving the Charr as a species filled with alot of cooler headed individuals(of which weve seen examples already).

    I agree that this can be a logical follow-up. The last service Bangar brings to the Charrs - cleaning their society of the "old school" unable to change members.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Redavv.2643 said:
    It will make a heck of a new story imagine if there is no dragon threat anymore and races start to fight each other and blame each other for various reasons all old alliances will be broken and then OPEN WORLD PVP hahaha. we could have a system that a players would speak to an NPC and declare which race would like to support and when he or she enters open wolrd could become OVERT which means he could be attacked by another OVERT player . If he or she does not like to enter the open world in that state could speak to the NPC and become COVERT..

    That would revitilise the game i believe and fun things will happen :D

    it would completely kill the game. Openworld PVP is the worst thing that could happen to gw2.

    I mean, WvW is a thing. But I get what you mean. If it were confined to certain areas it wouldn't be so bad.

    WvW isn't really "open world PvP", since there's nothing to do in WvW except PvP objectives.

    you mean apart from the dolyaks, the keeps, towers, camps, guards, sentries, vet creatures, ...

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Redavv.2643 said:
    It will make a heck of a new story imagine if there is no dragon threat anymore and races start to fight each other and blame each other for various reasons all old alliances will be broken and then OPEN WORLD PVP hahaha. we could have a system that a players would speak to an NPC and declare which race would like to support and when he or she enters open wolrd could become OVERT which means he could be attacked by another OVERT player . If he or she does not like to enter the open world in that state could speak to the NPC and become COVERT..

    That would revitilise the game i believe and fun things will happen :D

    it would completely kill the game. Openworld PVP is the worst thing that could happen to gw2.

    I mean, WvW is a thing. But I get what you mean. If it were confined to certain areas it wouldn't be so bad.

    WvW isn't really "open world PvP", since there's nothing to do in WvW except PvP objectives.

    you mean apart from the dolyaks, the keeps, towers, camps, guards, sentries, vet creatures, ...

    Ah, right, how silly of me to forget that the one and only form of PvP is "deathmatch".

    It's not like there's king of the hill, capture the flag, and so many other kinds of PvP designs out there that includes NPCs, escorts, and objectives.

    How silly of me.

    /s

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • well, go to eotm. It is basically openworld pvp. Plenty of events to do, if you dont want to fight people.

    But keep the 'real' openworld pvp free.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    well, go to eotm. It is basically openworld pvp. Plenty of events to do, if you dont want to fight people.

    That's not open world PvP, since all those events are still all PvP oriented objectives and capture points (nor, btw, am I advocating for it; just pointing out that GW2 doesn't have any form of open world PvP).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.