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An experiment to increase raid participation

Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

I think one of the biggest issues with raids in this game is failing nets you nothing. This game trains you to focus on metas/activities where there are plenty of people, and to either follow the crowd or create the crowd with little individual accountability. Players can't stand doing an activity that rewards nothing. In fact I've bumped into players who just can't admit that they didn't do the right thing in a meta - I zoned into a ley line anomaly just before failure where there were no less than 20 people and someone was saying the other time slot was better due more people in the other time frame. I'm pretty sure I've done it with 10 (or low teens before). This basically means players try raiding once and give up, without giving it a second thought.

I actually think this game needs to encourage PuG raiding to encourage players to learn some form of accountability and team work. In addition to the fact that it will help keep the raiding community vibrant. And I think I have a solution to do just that.

It works like this:

There is a new weekly objective for each boss in one wing (rotating between wings), giving 5 AP, 5g, 1 bosses' worth raiding currency for ascended gear and 1 LI per objective. This objective isn't based on the boss actually getting killed. It's based on dealing total damage to it that would have been fatal if given in one go (as a squad, all of the damage of any squad you participate in counts toward your objective). The reason for this is if attempts alone are rewarded, people will just fail fast. So it has to be performance based. This will encourage players to put their best foot forward. Adding one objective per boss also encourages people to try the next one if they succeed or to pick it up later. I don't think this is game breaking -> consistent raiders earn way more of those things (except AP, which they would get anyway when it's implemented), so they're not being slighted at all. It's a performance based participation award, everyone wins. Honestly, the rewards just aren't there for strikes and most people wouldn't want to do something hard on that level for no reward (and by hard I mean wait in an LFG group forever).

Also note, this isn't giving away any of the legendary raid gear for free either - the armor and the ring are locked behind collections tied to boss kills. It's just giving the community incentive to try.

I would also recommend showing the objective clearly, above dailies in the UI, along with a recommendation for using the LFG tool (so newer players get accustomed to it fast). This way everyone knows it's there.

I know this will make elitists cringe because they don't want people pugging them, but the reality is GW2's structure is very open group everywhere else in the game, so encouraging that in a raiding environment can only ensure more community participation. Raiding will never be mainstream if LFG PuG groups aren't capable of doing them and there isn't guaranteed incentive for them. Period. Also CM mode is there for people that want something harder anyway. PS I PuG normal difficulty in WoW too and it is PuGable.

Comments

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2020

    I see few proplems in this, other than that im ok with the idea.
    1st: PERSONALLY i dont like that it gives LI.

    2nd: I dont like the increased gold rewards for raids. Atm we have 7 wings and 2 of them already gives 4 gold and random exo/boss while others gives 2 gold and random exo/boss. Adding this extra 5 gold/boss for 1 wing would give me 84 gold and ~20 exotic gear pieces + all the junk loot every monday. Which is alot i think.

    EDIT: also many fights would fail in first ~15 seconds without much dmg (or 0) done to boss if non raiders try them out.
    Deimos: without an handkiter squad wont live long here.

    Xera: ppl just failing pre event.

    Sloth: first tandrum/CC phase/poison all more or less together would wipe the squad at start.

    Matthias: no feedback at the beginning and matthias immune to damage just nukes every1.

    Twisted castle: lol😅

    Escort: boss at the end, non raiders wont ever get there without some1 doing towers.

    Desmina: i guess players could deal some dmg before wipe.

    Statues: too messy and confusing for non raiders plus there is 2 bosses and event.

    River: no boss.

    Dhuum: endless wipe at pre event.

    CA: some dmg during the first 20 seconds and then wipe.

    Largos: non raider squad gets killed in first 15 seconds.

    Qadim: no ppl for mechanics, non raiders wont ever even get to boss and wipe.

    Adina: first pillars would wipe the squad.

    Qadim2: just wipe after wipe at the beginning.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I think one of the biggest issues with raids in this game is failing nets you nothing. This game trains you to focus on metas/activities where there are plenty of people, and to either follow the crowd or create the crowd with little individual accountability. Players can't stand doing an activity that rewards nothing. In fact I've bumped into players who just can't admit that they didn't do the right thing in a meta - I zoned into a ley line anomaly just before failure where there were no less than 20 people and someone was saying the other time slot was better due more people in the other time frame. I'm pretty sure I've done it with 10 (or low teens before). This basically means players try raiding once and give up, without giving it a second thought.

    You are not completely correct, there is a mechanic in place for raids which rewards players even if unsuccessful in killing a boss:
    Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals

    Awarded for unsuccessful attempts at defeating bosses, based on the progression in the fight.

    Starting at 75% of health left, players get one shard, and another two for each multiple of 25% of health lost. For example, if a team wipes below 25%, they get 5 shards each.

    The reward is simply not what some players might want (aka easy access to LI or LD), but it is there.

    While I personally would love additional gold and AP from quests for raids, given I am an active raider, I'm not so sure this would go down well with a majority of the player base which does not enjoy raiding.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So your idea is to stress achievement hunters into raiding for some extra AP?

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2020

    I think the problem is that raids are inaccessible to 5man parties, which is the average in this game and what is used for all other content, combined with the requirement for kill proofs, and many other gatekeeping tactics from both ArenaNet and players.

    They're just not accessible, that's the whole reason Strike Missions were created.

    Its not just an issue of rewards, its alot of issues, starting with a decline in population and how hard it is to actually find the right compositions for Fractals, let alone raids which require twice as many people and are much more difficult to negotiate.

    Adding rewards upon failure won't help, because people don't want to fail and get rewards, they want to win and get rewards, and at least part of the reason for doing it is simply to win, despite the strereotype that everyone is in it for loot; the fact that people still troll Auric Basin meta and other events shows this is not actually true, and that players have alot of motivations besides rewards.

    There's just alot to it, but its mostly about lack of accessibility. Raids were aimed at the top 1%..

    If you want to make raids accessible you can start with either making them doable by a good 5man group, or open them up completely and allow the entire 50man squad to enter and basically treat it like an open-world meta except instanced and squad-based, that way you at least retain some degree of "hardcore-ness" to it, very similar to coordinated groups in PvE metas and in WvW.

    This change alone would immediately pull a significant portion of the player base into raids on a regular basis.

    But this won't happen because ArenaNet is moving away from instanced content because they don't like players being unseen by other players, which is giving the "illusion" that the population is declining, hence the public strikes.

    Its also why they don't like guild halls, and many other things..

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Henge of Denravi Silver Invader [SUKI]
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2020

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I think the problem is that raids are inaccessible to 5man parties, which is the average in this game and what is used for all other content, combined with the requirement for kill proofs, and many other gatekeeping tactics from both ArenaNet and players.

    They're just not accessible, that's the whole reason Strike Missions were created.

    Its not just an issue of rewards, its alot of issues, starting with a decline in population and how hard it is to actually find the right compositions for Fractals, let alone raids which require twice as many people and are much more difficult to negotiate.

    Adding rewards upon failure won't help, because people don't want to fail and get rewards, they want to win and get rewards, and at least part of the reason for doing it is simply to win, despite the strereotype that everyone is in it for loot; the fact that people still troll Auric Basin meta and other events shows this is not actually true, and that players have alot of motivations besides rewards.

    There's just alot to it, but its mostly about lack of accessibility. Raids were aimed at the top 1%..

    If you want to make raids accessible you can start with either making them doable by a good 5man group, or open them up completely and allow the entire 50man squad to enter and basically treat it like an open-world meta except instanced and squad-based, that way you at least retain some degree of "hardcore-ness" to it, very similar to coordinated groups in PvE metas and in WvW.

    This change alone would immediately pull a significant portion of the player base into raids on a regular basis.

    But this won't happen because ArenaNet is moving away from instanced content because they don't like players being unseen by other players, which is giving the "illusion" that the population is declining, hence the public strikes.

    Its also why they don't like guild halls, and many other things..

    You can 5men many raids already.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I think the problem is that raids are inaccessible to 5man parties, which is the average in this game and what is used for all other content, combined with the requirement for kill proofs, and many other gatekeeping tactics from both ArenaNet and players.

    They're just not accessible, that's the whole reason Strike Missions were created.

    Its not just an issue of rewards, its alot of issues, starting with a decline in population and how hard it is to actually find the right compositions for Fractals, let alone raids which require twice as many people and are much more difficult to negotiate.

    Adding rewards upon failure won't help, because people don't want to fail and get rewards, they want to win and get rewards, and at least part of the reason for doing it is simply to win, despite the strereotype that everyone is in it for loot; the fact that people still troll Auric Basin meta and other events shows this is not actually true, and that players have alot of motivations besides rewards.

    There's just alot to it, but its mostly about lack of accessibility. Raids were aimed at the top 1%..

    If you want to make raids accessible you can start with either making them doable by a good 5man group, or open them up completely and allow the entire 50man squad to enter and basically treat it like an open-world meta except instanced and squad-based, that way you at least retain some degree of "hardcore-ness" to it, very similar to coordinated groups in PvE metas and in WvW.

    This change alone would immediately pull a significant portion of the player base into raids on a regular basis.

    But this won't happen because ArenaNet is moving away from instanced content because they don't like players being unseen by other players, which is giving the "illusion" that the population is declining, hence the public strikes.

    Its also why they don't like guild halls, and many other things..

    You can 5men many raids already.

    I think what Hannelore means is that they are balanced around five man parties instead of 10, which i disagree with unless they have two separate instances. How that would work i dont know because the mechanics would have to be changed. if they did have a 5 person and a 10 person instance with the same rewards id be really happy with that, it would mean id actually be able to do them with the small group of friends i have who are interested in raids. Finding 10 people without being in a guild and hoping for success is just laughable(i mean pugging here).

    Shes pretty right on the money otherwise imo.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I think the problem is that raids are inaccessible to 5man parties, which is the average in this game and what is used for all other content, combined with the requirement for kill proofs, and many other gatekeeping tactics from both ArenaNet and players.

    They're just not accessible, that's the whole reason Strike Missions were created.

    Its not just an issue of rewards, its alot of issues, starting with a decline in population and how hard it is to actually find the right compositions for Fractals, let alone raids which require twice as many people and are much more difficult to negotiate.

    Adding rewards upon failure won't help, because people don't want to fail and get rewards, they want to win and get rewards, and at least part of the reason for doing it is simply to win, despite the strereotype that everyone is in it for loot; the fact that people still troll Auric Basin meta and other events shows this is not actually true, and that players have alot of motivations besides rewards.

    There's just alot to it, but its mostly about lack of accessibility. Raids were aimed at the top 1%..

    If you want to make raids accessible you can start with either making them doable by a good 5man group, or open them up completely and allow the entire 50man squad to enter and basically treat it like an open-world meta except instanced and squad-based, that way you at least retain some degree of "hardcore-ness" to it, very similar to coordinated groups in PvE metas and in WvW.

    This change alone would immediately pull a significant portion of the player base into raids on a regular basis.

    But this won't happen because ArenaNet is moving away from instanced content because they don't like players being unseen by other players, which is giving the "illusion" that the population is declining, hence the public strikes.

    Its also why they don't like guild halls, and many other things..

    You can 5men many raids already.

    I think what Hannelore means is that they are balanced around five man parties instead of 10, which i disagree with unless they have two separate instances. How that would work i dont know because the mechanics would have to be changed. if they did have a 5 person and a 10 person instance with the same rewards id be really happy with that, it would mean id actually be able to do them with the small group of friends i have who are interested in raids. Finding 10 people without being in a guild and hoping for success is just laughable(i mean pugging here).

    Shes pretty right on the money otherwise imo.

    Well she asked them to be doable with 5 good player like many of them are already. But yeah i understand the point as some raids needs 10 men because of mechanics which imo makes those raids intresting. Still many bosses dont have mechanics that requires 10 players and tbh im not sure how many players those are balanced for as enrage timer is very forgiving and even after the enrage fight is kinda easy to complete with low man squad.

    TLDR: if you have 5 friends who are looking for challenging content, lowman raids are for you.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    I see few proplems in this, other than that im ok with the idea.
    1st: PERSONALLY i dont like that it gives LI.

    2nd: I dont like the increased gold rewards for raids. Atm we have 7 wings and 2 of them already gives 4 gold and random exo/boss while others gives 2 gold and random exo/boss. Adding this extra 5 gold/boss for 1 wing would give me 84 gold and ~20 exotic gear pieces + all the junk loot every monday. Which is alot i think.

    84 g and 20 exotic in 4-5 h if ur squad id decent. If ur wiping and u learn it takes Way longer. Its easier and more profitable to do brainless meta for 30 g/h. Imo raid rewards should be increased, considering its end game of gw2

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    I see few proplems in this, other than that im ok with the idea.
    1st: PERSONALLY i dont like that it gives LI.

    2nd: I dont like the increased gold rewards for raids. Atm we have 7 wings and 2 of them already gives 4 gold and random exo/boss while others gives 2 gold and random exo/boss. Adding this extra 5 gold/boss for 1 wing would give me 84 gold and ~20 exotic gear pieces + all the junk loot every monday. Which is alot i think.

    84 g and 20 exotic in 4-5 h if ur squad id decent. If ur wiping and u learn it takes Way longer. Its easier and more profitable to do brainless meta for 30 g/h. Imo raid rewards should be increased, considering its end game of gw2

    Wanna hear a secret? I dont wanna have increased raid rewards because im already tired of reading topics about how unfair raiding is for whatever reason, increase rewards and there will be even more of those 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    a better experiment:
    implement multiple difficulties

    This way a much easier version could be implemented and so casual participation would increase.
    This way, they could also implement an even harder version, for those top percentage players that think raids are too easy.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    I know this will make elitists cringe because they don't want people pugging them, but the reality is GW2's structure is very open group everywhere else in the game, so encouraging that in a raiding environment can only ensure more community participation. Raiding will never be mainstream if LFG PuG groups aren't capable of doing them and there isn't guaranteed incentive for them. Period. Also CM mode is there for people that want something harder anyway. PS I PuG normal difficulty in WoW too and it is PuGable.

    Although any idea of making the raids more PUG friendly is a step forward in showing to ANet that the players are interested in raids, sadly, I don't expect any change. Because of the way the raids were designed: to be completed by very few players - the most dedicated/skillful/...etc. The raids were not designed for the PUG's. Period. Sad, but true.

    Moreover, ANet seems to be not disturbed by the fact the raiders number is so low compared with the GW2 players number and considers the raids to be a success. And even if (secretly) ANet will consider the raids as a failed experiment, they will never admit. The raid development will be slowed down (a wing per year for example), and in 2-3 years the raids will have the same fate as the dungeons. Dying in silence. Without turning into something PUG friendly.

    So, keep hoping. But expect nothing regarding the raids.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I think one of the biggest issues with raids in this game is failing nets you nothing. This game trains you to focus on metas/activities where there are plenty of people, and to either follow the crowd or create the crowd with little individual accountability. Players can't stand doing an activity that rewards nothing. In fact I've bumped into players who just can't admit that they didn't do the right thing in a meta - I zoned into a ley line anomaly just before failure where there were no less than 20 people and someone was saying the other time slot was better due more people in the other time frame. I'm pretty sure I've done it with 10 (or low teens before). This basically means players try raiding once and give up, without giving it a second thought.

    I actually think this game needs to encourage PuG raiding to encourage players to learn some form of accountability and team work. In addition to the fact that it will help keep the raiding community vibrant. And I think I have a solution to do just that.

    It works like this:

    There is a new weekly objective for each boss in one wing (rotating between wings), giving 5 AP, 5g, 1 bosses' worth raiding currency for ascended gear and 1 LI per objective. This objective isn't based on the boss actually getting killed. It's based on dealing total damage to it that would have been fatal if given in one go (as a squad, all of the damage of any squad you participate in counts toward your objective). The reason for this is if attempts alone are rewarded, people will just fail fast. So it has to be performance based. This will encourage players to put their best foot forward. Adding one objective per boss also encourages people to try the next one if they succeed or to pick it up later. I don't think this is game breaking -> consistent raiders earn way more of those things (except AP, which they would get anyway when it's implemented), so they're not being slighted at all. It's a performance based participation award, everyone wins. Honestly, the rewards just aren't there for strikes and most people wouldn't want to do something hard on that level for no reward (and by hard I mean wait in an LFG group forever).

    Also note, this isn't giving away any of the legendary raid gear for free either - the armor and the ring are locked behind collections tied to boss kills. It's just giving the community incentive to try.

    I would also recommend showing the objective clearly, above dailies in the UI, along with a recommendation for using the LFG tool (so newer players get accustomed to it fast). This way everyone knows it's there.

    I know this will make elitists cringe because they don't want people pugging them, but the reality is GW2's structure is very open group everywhere else in the game, so encouraging that in a raiding environment can only ensure more community participation. Raiding will never be mainstream if LFG PuG groups aren't capable of doing them and there isn't guaranteed incentive for them. Period. Also CM mode is there for people that want something harder anyway. PS I PuG normal difficulty in WoW too and it is PuGable.

    Or maybe the "problem" you have identified is caused by the game coddling it's players so hard with it's "Max loot for almost zero effort" mentality and that could change.
    Instead of rewarding people for failure, maybe the developers should take a look at why players in Guild Wars 2 have become so accustomed to receiving max rewards for under-performing.
    Go to all the popular meta events rewards, and scale Gold reward for the top 10% of those contributing and giving everyone else silver or bronze. Half the number of bonus chests, and no Greater Chests in the loot phase for Tarir if you dont get gold. Zero elegy mosiacs for legendary bounties unless you do more than 5kDPS. No Amalgamated Gemstones for people with Bronze. Bottom contribution on a strike?..zero rewards.... nothing.

    If indeed your assumption is correct, this fix would be far healthier than an idea which would inevitably lead to "fail farming".

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Bottom contribution on a strike?..zero rewards.... nothing.

    While I've seen ridiculous stuff in strikes (a deadeye doing 900 dps, for instance) and some people are definitely just leeching from competent teammates, I think your ideas here introduce a zero-sum mentality that would unacceptably taint the spirit of GW2. This essentially would pit squadmates against each other, and ensures that there will always be a complete loser in the group. You might think that taking draconian measures might somehow encourage players to do better, but experience and logic suggests that the mass of people who can't meet these new standards would just quit, and quit angrily/loudly if they've invested real money and a significant chunk of time into the game.

    Like it or not, I think the lack of challenge and direct player-to-player competition for resources in pve is a big part of what makes GW2 distinguishable from most other titles. The game does provide challenges for those who choose to seek them. I understand that there aren't a ton of raids and that the pace of release doesn't satisfy raiders, but turning the rest of the game into a toxic "git gud or lose everything" instance solves absolutely nothing.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I think one of the biggest issues with raids in this game is failing nets you nothing. This game trains you to focus on metas/activities where there are plenty of people, and to either follow the crowd or create the crowd with little individual accountability. Players can't stand doing an activity that rewards nothing. In fact I've bumped into players who just can't admit that they didn't do the right thing in a meta - I zoned into a ley line anomaly just before failure where there were no less than 20 people and someone was saying the other time slot was better due more people in the other time frame. I'm pretty sure I've done it with 10 (or low teens before). This basically means players try raiding once and give up, without giving it a second thought.

    I actually think this game needs to encourage PuG raiding to encourage players to learn some form of accountability and team work. In addition to the fact that it will help keep the raiding community vibrant. And I think I have a solution to do just that.

    It works like this:

    There is a new weekly objective for each boss in one wing (rotating between wings), giving 5 AP, 5g, 1 bosses' worth raiding currency for ascended gear and 1 LI per objective. This objective isn't based on the boss actually getting killed. It's based on dealing total damage to it that would have been fatal if given in one go (as a squad, all of the damage of any squad you participate in counts toward your objective). The reason for this is if attempts alone are rewarded, people will just fail fast. So it has to be performance based. This will encourage players to put their best foot forward. Adding one objective per boss also encourages people to try the next one if they succeed or to pick it up later. I don't think this is game breaking -> consistent raiders earn way more of those things (except AP, which they would get anyway when it's implemented), so they're not being slighted at all. It's a performance based participation award, everyone wins. Honestly, the rewards just aren't there for strikes and most people wouldn't want to do something hard on that level for no reward (and by hard I mean wait in an LFG group forever).

    Also note, this isn't giving away any of the legendary raid gear for free either - the armor and the ring are locked behind collections tied to boss kills. It's just giving the community incentive to try.

    I would also recommend showing the objective clearly, above dailies in the UI, along with a recommendation for using the LFG tool (so newer players get accustomed to it fast). This way everyone knows it's there.

    I know this will make elitists cringe because they don't want people pugging them, but the reality is GW2's structure is very open group everywhere else in the game, so encouraging that in a raiding environment can only ensure more community participation. Raiding will never be mainstream if LFG PuG groups aren't capable of doing them and there isn't guaranteed incentive for them. Period. Also CM mode is there for people that want something harder anyway. PS I PuG normal difficulty in WoW too and it is PuGable.

    Or maybe the "problem" you have identified is caused by the game coddling it's players so hard with it's "Max loot for almost zero effort" mentality and that could change.
    Instead of rewarding people for failure, maybe the developers should take a look at why players in Guild Wars 2 have become so accustomed to receiving max rewards for under-performing.
    Go to all the popular meta events rewards, and scale Gold reward for the top 10% of those contributing and giving everyone else silver or bronze. Half the number of bonus chests, and no Greater Chests in the loot phase for Tarir if you dont get gold. Zero elegy mosiacs for legendary bounties unless you do more than 5kDPS. No Amalgamated Gemstones for people with Bronze. Bottom contribution on a strike?..zero rewards.... nothing.

    If indeed your assumption is correct, this fix would be far healthier than an idea which would inevitably lead to "fail farming".

    Fail farming could be a thing, but players are rewarded for actually doing things efficiently - there's overhead to retrying bosses after each fail, also due to more rewards deeper in the wing, you get more for actually succeeding. That's part of the reason i suggested it work that way. Players who want more will do their best and look for others who want to as well.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Fail farming could be a thing, but players are rewarded for actually doing things efficiently - there's overhead to retrying bosses after each fail, also due to more rewards deeper in the wing, you get more for actually succeeding. That's part of the reason i suggested it work that way. Players who want more will do their best and look for others who want to as well.

    Players who want to succeed are already looking for others who want to as well....and getting labelled toxic for doing so.
    Your idea does nothing but attract the same player who afks after putting in the minimum number of hits in Tarir, or sits at spawn in one PvP match per day for the daily.

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    While I've seen ridiculous stuff in strikes (a deadeye doing 900 dps, for instance) and some people are definitely just leeching from competent teammates, I think your ideas here introduce a zero-sum mentality that would unacceptably taint the spirit of GW2. This essentially would pit squadmates against each other, and ensures that there will always be a complete loser in the group.

    So the deadeye leeching at 900dps isn't the problem, it's the suggestion that such a player go unrewarded for such contribution that "would unacceptably taint the spirit of GW2".
    That's some pretty heavy-handed rhetoric there.
    A deadeye doing 900dps lives in a bubble. They live in that bubble thinking they are helping and nothing shatters their little illusion. They happily continue living thier power fantasy and why would they not? They are fully rewarded in every encounter. No one breaks that bubble.
    Anyways.... thanks for the lecture on the "spirit of GW2", you clearly took the time to understand what I was saying to the OP, and the backhanded comments about toxicity were a real learning moment for me.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    Or maybe the "problem" you have identified is caused by the game coddling it's players so hard with it's "Max loot for almost zero effort" mentality and that could change.
    Instead of rewarding people for failure, maybe the developers should take a look at why players in Guild Wars 2 have become so accustomed to receiving max rewards for under-performing.
    Go to all the popular meta events rewards, and scale Gold reward for the top 10% of those contributing and giving everyone else silver or bronze. Half the number of bonus chests, and no Greater Chests in the loot phase for Tarir if you dont get gold. Zero elegy mosiacs for legendary bounties unless you do more than 5kDPS. No Amalgamated Gemstones for people with Bronze. Bottom contribution on a strike?..zero rewards.... nothing.

    If indeed your assumption is correct, this fix would be far healthier than an idea which would inevitably lead to "fail farming".

    LOOOL !! What a hate! I'm so glad you have no decision rights in ANet. I'm worried that you may have these rights in the RL :#

    So, in a cooperative mode, where some events cannot be completed solo, you suggest to reward only 10% of the players. The rest are noninportant according to your point of view. Really? They are the persons helping the 10% to have the rewards. And another thing: If the rewards will be like that, no matter what, no matter how much DPS a player will have, in this kind of situation you will always have a percentage of players excluded from rewards. Even if the difference between max DPS and min DPS in that squad is 100 points.

    Applying your suggestions, will turn this ... experiment to increase raid participation into an efficient way to empty GW2 from players.

    As I wrote above - I'm glad you cannot decide something regarding GW2.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2020

    I'd offer my help as low dps support for 100g per encounter and be one of the few people in the group warranting rewards for the others. Would be a hell of a money making machine.
    I mean rewards are terrible anyways.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Raids are organized content in a game that to 95% markets itself towards being a singleplayer mmo without any organization needed.
    Thats why theres low participation.
    Achievements and/or more rewards wont solve this.
    Strikemissions are more along the lines of "hop in, get loot, hop out" that the big majority of players in gw2 nowadays want, sadly they will fail also because anet is too stingy with rewards on those. People rather farm dragonfall then do a daily strikemission, even if the strikemission is more fun.

    Ive said this a few times already, what raids need to make them attractive to new players to put in the effort of organizing themselves, is a form of easymode that minimizes necessary organization. Like a buff the commander can trigger that pulses all boons to everyone every few seconds for 100% boonuptime. Not having to organize builds to maximize boons makes it so much easier to get a raidsquad going. 1 tank, 1-2 healers, rest dps.

    The same system then could be used to add a hardmode a la: no downstate debuff.

    You get an extra reward in form of gold or champbags for doing normal or hardmode.

    Voila, 3 modes instead of the current horrible "one size has to fit all" system that nobody likes and causes raids to die each week some more.

    But lets be real here. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this very anet-owned forum and the reddit. Many very good solutions have been presented, some of them even very easy to implement for anet. They have done nothing. That should tell you everything you need to know about raids in gw2.

    If you really want to raid in an mmo, theres games that offer way more raiding support for their community. Be it WoW (Classic) with its massive 40man raids, FFXIV, ESO etc. Pick one of those that you like the underlying combat system the most of and play GW2 the way anet wants you to play the game: a singleplayer game with a new story episode every few months.
    Trying to get anet to "fix raids" is absolutely hopeless. Dont waste your energy.

    Well your idea is really good for the different modes. I hate FFXIV's art style. Eso is weird.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I think one of the biggest issues with raids in this game is failing nets you nothing. This game trains you to focus on metas/activities where there are plenty of people, and to either follow the crowd or create the crowd with little individual accountability. Players can't stand doing an activity that rewards nothing. In fact I've bumped into players who just can't admit that they didn't do the right thing in a meta - I zoned into a ley line anomaly just before failure where there were no less than 20 people and someone was saying the other time slot was better due more people in the other time frame. I'm pretty sure I've done it with 10 (or low teens before). This basically means players try raiding once and give up, without giving it a second thought.

    I actually think this game needs to encourage PuG raiding to encourage players to learn some form of accountability and team work. In addition to the fact that it will help keep the raiding community vibrant. And I think I have a solution to do just that.

    It works like this:

    There is a new weekly objective for each boss in one wing (rotating between wings), giving 5 AP, 5g, 1 bosses' worth raiding currency for ascended gear and 1 LI per objective. This objective isn't based on the boss actually getting killed. It's based on dealing total damage to it that would have been fatal if given in one go (as a squad, all of the damage of any squad you participate in counts toward your objective). The reason for this is if attempts alone are rewarded, people will just fail fast. So it has to be performance based. This will encourage players to put their best foot forward. Adding one objective per boss also encourages people to try the next one if they succeed or to pick it up later. I don't think this is game breaking -> consistent raiders earn way more of those things (except AP, which they would get anyway when it's implemented), so they're not being slighted at all. It's a performance based participation award, everyone wins. Honestly, the rewards just aren't there for strikes and most people wouldn't want to do something hard on that level for no reward (and by hard I mean wait in an LFG group forever).

    Also note, this isn't giving away any of the legendary raid gear for free either - the armor and the ring are locked behind collections tied to boss kills. It's just giving the community incentive to try.

    I would also recommend showing the objective clearly, above dailies in the UI, along with a recommendation for using the LFG tool (so newer players get accustomed to it fast). This way everyone knows it's there.

    I know this will make elitists cringe because they don't want people pugging them, but the reality is GW2's structure is very open group everywhere else in the game, so encouraging that in a raiding environment can only ensure more community participation. Raiding will never be mainstream if LFG PuG groups aren't capable of doing them and there isn't guaranteed incentive for them. Period. Also CM mode is there for people that want something harder anyway. PS I PuG normal difficulty in WoW too and it is PuGable.

    the reason i dont raid and i never will raid?
    because i personally find PvE dumbest thing in world ;) not just in gw2 but in most games cus u can just predict npc's movement or skills ones u did enough PvE which is what i dislike thus why i get my joy out of PvP or WvW cus i cant predict people there yes i can Guess what they will do and call it predict but u really cant figure out 100% sure what some1 is up to. which gives me joy and its also alot harder then wacking a HP punch bag.

    even if raids would drop legendary weapons i wouldnt even bother doing them to be honest.
    rewards dont pull people towards something also if u ask me. id still play only PvP and WvW if all rewards would be removed from these game types i just do what i enjoy and rewards are nice but not needed in my eyes if i dont like something then why bother playing it?

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    That's some pretty heavy-handed rhetoric there.
    A deadeye doing 900dps lives in a bubble. They live in that bubble thinking they are helping and nothing shatters their little illusion. They happily continue living thier power fantasy and why would they not? They are fully rewarded in every encounter. No one breaks that bubble.

    That's actually my point, exactly. As much as you or I might not appreciate this aspect of the game, GW2 has never been about even a modestly hardcore gaming experience, and not bursting that bubble is a defining aspect of this product. I'm not saying that preserving that bubble is an explicit Anet development goal, or that even having such a goal is a good thing. I just think it's far too late for GW2 to introduce these kinds of cutoffs. I think this reward restructuring you suggest will definitely drive off a large number of players instead of encouraging them to do better, and simultaneously will do nothing to attract new players to the game, let alone to harder content within the game.

    Anyways.... thanks for the lecture on the "spirit of GW2", you clearly took the time to understand what I was saying to the OP, and the backhanded comments about toxicity were a real learning moment for me.

    You're welcome, glad you learned something.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People often talk about the shrinking size and quantity of the raid community as a whole and thus the many attempts or at least ideas to attract new people. But we also happen to neglect to mention the quality of the incoming new and even remaining old players.
    So, how about an attempt to actually keep the veterans who have already gained everything there is around rather than looking to replace them with players who are neither interested in the content nor can be considered even close to it's target audience?
    Not saying there should be no new blood or that these attempts shouldn't be commended but both goals need to happen simultaneously and parallely to eachother to ensure a healthy community with a mixed base of players willing to learn and able to teach.

    New content or more specifically raid content that doesn't only come once a year should be the main goal but if that isn't possible for whatever reason then there might be multiple ways of keeping the hardcore, semi-hardcore communities and anyone who has raided for years interested.
    Ways to add additional rewards or special titles and masteries similar to what they did with Fractals. There should be an incentive to keep your squad together and to redo ancient bosses weekl after week. There could be weekly new challenges on specific bosses or the occasional reset of old CM modes. Not sure how hard it would be to implement such things but it sound far easier and more doable than releasing an additional new wing every six months.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    While I've seen ridiculous stuff in strikes (a deadeye doing 900 dps, for instance) and some people are definitely just leeching from competent teammates, I think your ideas here introduce a zero-sum mentality that would unacceptably taint the spirit of GW2. This essentially would pit squadmates against each other, and ensures that there will always be a complete loser in the group.

    So the deadeye leeching at 900dps isn't the problem, it's the suggestion that such a player go unrewarded for such contribution that "would unacceptably taint the spirit of GW2".
    That's some pretty heavy-handed rhetoric there.
    A deadeye doing 900dps lives in a bubble. They live in that bubble thinking they are helping and nothing shatters their little illusion. They happily continue living thier power fantasy and why would they not? They are fully rewarded in every encounter. No one breaks that bubble.

    You have thought to that point, but you didn't think your idea through to its real consequence.

    So, that 900dps deadeye starts consistently getting nothing, and either improves its dps, or quits (more likely the second). Good, mission achieved.

    What happens next, though?

    Those 2000-3000dps average open world players start getting no rewards. They either improve, or quit (again, more likely the second). You might say, again, good, mission accpmplished.

    So...

    Those 4000-6000 dps better than average players start getting no rewards, they either improve, or quit.

    ...start seeing the pattern?

    How long do you think until only experienced raiders will remain doing it? At some point doing 20k might end up being not enough to get the reward. What message would that send?
    What about players doing other roles than dps (Healers/buffers, or people doing some specific mechanics in metas that might result in their dps getting cut)? How would you quantify their contribution? Or should they always get bronze/nothing?

    When thinking of simple solutions, you do need to really think them through, because it so happens, that simple solutions in most cases end up being either not simple, or not a solution (or both).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2020

    @Henry.5713 said:
    People often talk about the shrinking size and quantity of the raid community as a whole and thus the many attempts or at least ideas to attract new people. But we also happen to neglect to mention the quality of the incoming new and even remaining old players.
    So, how about an attempt to actually keep the veterans who have already gained everything there is around rather than looking to replace them with players who are neither interested in the content nor can be considered even close to it's target audience?
    Not saying there should be no new blood or that these attempts shouldn't be commended but both goals need to happen simultaneously and parallely to eachother to ensure a healthy community with a mixed base of players willing to learn and able to teach.

    New content or more specifically raid content that doesn't only come once a year should be the main goal but if that isn't possible for whatever reason then there might be multiple ways of keeping the hardcore, semi-hardcore communities and anyone who has raided for years interested.
    Ways to add additional rewards or special titles and masteries similar to what they did with Fractals. There should be an incentive to keep your squad together and to redo ancient bosses weekl after week. There could be weekly new challenges on specific bosses or the occasional reset of old CM modes. Not sure how hard it would be to implement such things but it sound far easier and more doable than releasing an additional new wing every six months.

    Because the vets in general are uninterested in helping newer players, so helping them doesn't grow the community. I've seen it in a guild (raid training leader looked for absolutely any reason to duck out, never did a good job organizing the group ) as well as in LFG descriptions. "150 li or gtfo". That's the perspective i had when writing this. However, you do have a point, there needs to be rewards for vets as well. Though my solution gives those as well.

  • Would it be better to have a system like ffxiv where if the game detect that there is a person that haven't done raid before, the people that did it before get extra reward (not too much where its can be exploited). And I don't mean detecting weekly clear, its detect if the account did that certain boss or not.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    This whole idea is strange to me. Your very first statement, 'I think one of the biggest issues with raids in this game is failing nets you nothing. ' is just factually not true. You get magnetite shards and gaeting crystals for failing. In fact, literally the only way to hit the weekly cap of gaeting crystals is to fail something at least once (perfect full clear is 145 gaeting).

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:
    This whole idea is strange to me. Your very first statement, 'I think one of the biggest issues with raids in this game is failing nets you nothing. ' is just factually not true. You get magnetite shards and gaeting crystals for failing. In fact, literally the only way to hit the weekly cap of gaeting crystals is to fail something at least once (perfect full clear is 145 gaeting).

    Yeah except most of those crystals come from actual victories, ie it's way more efficient to win and i'm sure there's more efficient ways of farming ascended gear than failing a boss 600 to 200 times depending on how good your group is when it fails + 20g you have to fork over.

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    a better experiment:
    implement multiple difficulties

    This way a much easier version could be implemented and so casual participation would increase.
    This way, they could also implement an even harder version, for those top percentage players that think raids are too easy.

    yup, and a sinple change for difficulty..would be less boss health, and weaker boss attacks. bam easy node, that stil includes mechanics. The problem is..if they don't offer Li or kp, it won't help with progression into normal mode.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    This whole idea is strange to me. Your very first statement, 'I think one of the biggest issues with raids in this game is failing nets you nothing. ' is just factually not true. You get magnetite shards and gaeting crystals for failing. In fact, literally the only way to hit the weekly cap of gaeting crystals is to fail something at least once (perfect full clear is 145 gaeting).

    Yeah except most of those crystals come from actual victories, ie it's way more efficient to win and i'm sure there's more efficient ways of farming ascended gear than failing a boss 600 to 200 times depending on how good your group is when it fails + 20g you have to fork over.

    Yeah but the alternative you proposed:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    This objective isn't based on the boss actually getting killed. It's based on dealing total damage to it that would have been fatal if given in one go (as a squad, all of the damage of any squad you participate in counts toward your objective).

    Has the exact same design. It is much more efficient to just kill it in one go. Worse yet, the current system keeps rewarding you even when you fail, all the way to 150 mag shards/gaeting crystals, your proposal is a lot lower. In the current system I can spend an hour wiping at VG and keep getting shards. Even for a completely new group, your alternative caps out after 5-10 pulls, and it only gives 10 shards total. Your proposal gives less shards and maxes out its reward way faster (i.e. even less incentives to keep players progressing towards a kill).

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    Or maybe the "problem" you have identified is caused by the game coddling it's players so hard with it's "Max loot for almost zero effort" mentality and that could change.
    Instead of rewarding people for failure, maybe the developers should take a look at why players in Guild Wars 2 have become so accustomed to receiving max rewards for under-performing.
    Go to all the popular meta events rewards, and scale Gold reward for the top 10% of those contributing and giving everyone else silver or bronze. Half the number of bonus chests, and no Greater Chests in the loot phase for Tarir if you dont get gold. Zero elegy mosiacs for legendary bounties unless you do more than 5kDPS. No Amalgamated Gemstones for people with Bronze. Bottom contribution on a strike?..zero rewards.... nothing.

    If indeed your assumption is correct, this fix would be far healthier than an idea which would inevitably lead to "fail farming".

    LOOOL !! What a hate! I'm so glad you have no decision rights in ANet. I'm worried that you may have these rights in the RL :#

    So, in a cooperative mode, where some events cannot be completed solo, you suggest to reward only 10% of the players. The rest are noninportant according to your point of view. Really? They are the persons helping the 10% to have the rewards. And another thing: If the rewards will be like that, no matter what, no matter how much DPS a player will have, in this kind of situation you will always have a percentage of players excluded from rewards. Even if the difference between max DPS and min DPS in that squad is 100 points.

    Applying your suggestions, will turn this ... experiment to increase raid participation into an efficient way to empty GW2 from players.

    As I wrote above - I'm glad you cannot decide something regarding GW2.

    good point. Sometimes I do Jormag with new players. I go on pure support tempest, tell them what to do and let them have fun while keeping them alive. They enjoy the experience, they can concentrate on their skills and don't need to worry about going down. According to dps, I am useless. But since I make sure that several people are actually on their feet I DO contribute.

    DPS checks are useless, unless they check if that person doing the damage was buffed, healed, cleansed by a third person and rewards the supporter as well. And then we REALLY open a can of worms.

    The current system is fine. It works. Raids should have never come to this game, it is that simple. Their stupid 'watch 5 guids twenty times to learn the mechanics. Then memorize your perfect rotation from snowcrows' architecture just keeps people away (because honestly? You either wipe contantly, which is boring, or just play by muscle memory which is just as boring).

    How to fix raids? Remove them, completely rework them and bring them back.

    And make legendary raid armor available to everyone who has any kind of legendary armor.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    good point. Sometimes I do Jormag with new players. I go on pure support tempest, tell them what to do and let them have fun while keeping them alive. They enjoy the experience, they can concentrate on their skills and don't need to worry about going down. According to dps, I am useless. But since I make sure that several people are actually on their feet I DO contribute.

    DPS checks are useless, unless they check if that person doing the damage was buffed, healed, cleansed by a third person and rewards the supporter as well. And then we REALLY open a can of worms.

    The current system is fine. It works. Raids should have never come to this game, it is that simple. Their stupid 'watch 5 guids twenty times to learn the mechanics. Then memorize your perfect rotation from snowcrows' architecture just keeps people away (because honestly? You either wipe contantly, which is boring, or just play by muscle memory which is just as boring).

    How to fix raids? Remove them, completely rework them and bring them back.

    And make legendary raid armor available to everyone who has any kind of legendary armor.

    The open world system is fine. I agree. For you and a huge amount of the community.
    But on the other side you're totally wrong. Raids are fine as well because it has a "target audience" to which you do not belong apparently. It's the same with PvP and WvW. Different people, different tastes. There's no reason to remove raids other than that people are jealous due to exclusive rewards or content they aren't able to overcome.
    If you don't like them don't do them. All you have to do is not caring. Funnily enough you are speaking against them which means that there's kind of envy on your side otherwise you would stop paying attention to them.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    The open world system is fine. I agree. For you and a huge amount of the community.
    But on the other side you're totally wrong. Raids are fine as well because it has a "target audience" to which you do not belong apparently. It's the same with PvP and WvW. Different people, different tastes. There's no reason to remove raids other than that people are jealous due to exclusive rewards or content they aren't able to overcome.
    If you don't like them don't do them. All you have to do is not caring. Funnily enough you are speaking against them which means that there's kind of envy on your side otherwise you would stop paying attention to them.

    I think that the main point of contention was always about raids being the only PvE way to obtain legendary armor (and i mean a legendary armor, not specifically an envoy set). If there was a path to legendary armor of comparable quality that followed the old PvE legendary gear creation model, most people would indeed not care about raids at all, and the amount of complains would have been much, much smaller.

    ...but of course Anet did want everyone (and not only people the content was truly designed for) to care, which is why we're in the current situation.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    The open world system is fine. I agree. For you and a huge amount of the community.
    But on the other side you're totally wrong. Raids are fine as well because it has a "target audience" to which you do not belong apparently. It's the same with PvP and WvW. Different people, different tastes. There's no reason to remove raids other than that people are jealous due to exclusive rewards or content they aren't able to overcome.
    If you don't like them don't do them. All you have to do is not caring. Funnily enough you are speaking against them which means that there's kind of envy on your side otherwise you would stop paying attention to them.

    I think that the main point of contention was always about raids being the only PvE way to obtain legendary armor (and i mean a legendary armor, not specifically an envoy set). If there was a path to legendary armor of comparable quality that followed the old PvE legendary gear creation model, most people would indeed not care about raids at all, and the amount of complains would have been much, much smaller.

    ...but of course Anet did want everyone (and not only people the content was truly designed for) to care, which is why we're in the current situation.

    I agree to the point that they could have made the complaints a little bit more quiet with a parallel implementation of an open world PvE armor but I still think that the majority of complaints would still exist because lots of people just cannot accept that there are areas in such a varied game like an mmo that is not for them.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I agree to the point that they could have made the complaints a little bit more quiet with a parallel implementation of an open world PvE armor but I still think that the majority of complaints would still exist because lots of people just cannot accept that there are areas in such a varied game like an mmo that is not for them.

    Nah. Complains about PvP modes were never this big, and only appeared if, by any chance, the paths of those modes intersected with paths of pve players (so, having to get a map completion/gift of battle for legendaries, or similar stuff). The only reason why in this case it was different is because Anet, instead of making it clear that it is a separate, sidecontent only for those interested in it, tried to mainstream it and show it as the endgame content for all of PvE. They made sure that everyone would be interested.

    Raids were for a long time too much of an "in your face" stuff to ignore them - and yet they were designed only for a minority of players. Thus the complains.

    TL/DR;
    If you make a lot of incentives for people from group A to do the content B, first make sure that this content is designed in such a way that will let them do it. If you lead players to the content, and then tell them it's not for them, it will not make them happy.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, it was obvious that raids will be hard. They were even announced as the hardest challenge a group has to overcome so far and to reward the successful ones with the leggy armor. Not to forget that the armor was realeased so late that it hasn't been funny anymore. In addition the look is kind of awful for the majority of players which is a key point in a game in which fashion is one of the main arguments to get items.
    But I'm still 100% convinced that a huge amount of those who were disappointed about raids in the first place would have been disappointed as well with an open world PvE armor once they realized that they have 0% chance to beat raids without effort on their side.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019