Reworking overloads into burst skills

As an elementalist main ever since I've started playing (around 7 years ago), Tempest has always bugged me as a very passive gameplay: You swap into an attunement, wait a few seconds, and use your overload. The idea of reworking overloads into burst skills, with an adrenaline bar, aims to shift the Tempest elite spec into a more pro-active playstyle without removing the core phylosophy: Rewarding players for sticking to an attunement.

Leaning into the details of this warrior-inspired mechanic, there are obviously aspects that need further discussion:

• How many adrenaline thresholds are there? One? Three? Even more?
• Do we retain current overloads effects for all weapons, or do we make different ones for each of them?
• Do we simply replace the current 4 seconds cooldown with an adrenaline bar, or do we also change or remove things like the channel time?
• Do we remove the attunement cooldown penalty after completing an overload?

Though I don't have the answers for all of these questions, I think this change has the potential to revigorate Tempest as an interesting and fun class to play, also fitting very well alongside Shouts and Warhorn as a warrior-inspired specialization.

Ya I’ve always liked the idea. For example, every time you use a skill in that attunement, gives you some energy that builds in the overload making it stronger the more you’ve held off using it. It would add a dimension to the class that would make it interesting.

This kind of change shouldn’t be only for overloads, but the concept should be incorporated more so across the game, especially on classes that don’t have a resource-like mechanic (ex Mesmer/ soul beast/ guardian)

My biggest problem with overloads outside of PvE is stability is one stack when traited with Harmonious conduit, so it's just a huge tell that is waiting to be interrupted. I also wish fire attunement's overload removed chill since it's 180 range PBAOE but that's wishful thinking. Lightning flash still doesn't break stun (and neither does Cleansing Fire) so unlike weaver which has access to Twist of Fate, tempest must rely on overloads to break stun if the primary stunbreak (mist form for example ; Glyph of Elemental Power if you're primarily aiming for damage) is on cooldown.As far as "tiers" go, we already have it in overloads, the longer you stay in the overload the more ticks you get from it. Whether the fire attunement's overload is worth it is debatable (it's respectable but low radius and the pulses are once per second rather than 1/2 or 3/4 second so it's only worth it if you have condi damage), but water cleanses + heals, air does multiple strikes of 360 radius on par with auto attacks and is a lightning field, and earth is a blast finisher and applies stability + protection.

Essentially tempest is the opposite of weaver, where you want to camp the attunement for the overload and switch attunements. For weavers you need to swap attunements for the dual attack.

Maybe have attunements not go on full 20 cooldown if the overload doesn't finish channeling?

@"Infusion.7149" said:My biggest problem with overloads outside of PvE is stability is one stack when traited with Harmonious conduit, so it's just a huge tell that is waiting to be interrupted. I also wish fire attunement's overload removed chill since it's 180 range PBAOE but that's wishful thinking. Lightning flash still doesn't break stun (and neither does Cleansing Fire) so unlike weaver which has access to Twist of Fate, tempest must rely on overloads to break stun if the primary stunbreak (mist form for example ; Glyph of Elemental Power if you're primarily aiming for damage) is on cooldown.As far as "tiers" go, we already have it in overloads, the longer you stay in the overload the more ticks you get from it. Whether the fire attunement's overload is worth it is debatable (it's respectable but low radius and the pulses are once per second rather than 1/2 or 3/4 second so it's only worth it if you have condi damage), but water cleanses + heals, air does multiple strikes of 360 radius on par with auto attacks and is a lightning field, and earth is a blast finisher and applies stability + protection.

Essentially tempest is the opposite of weaver, where you want to camp the attunement for the overload and switch attunements. For weavers you need to swap attunements for the dual attack.

Maybe have attunements not go on full 20 cooldown if the overload doesn't finish channeling?

From what i heard you mostly want to camp fire and maybe air at most but you would lose that power from switching to air from the build part which is a little bit of power. If you take power overwhelming and pyromancers puissance well you are kinda going to want to camp fire for as long as possible because you gain more power from being in fire while having maximum might gen get more power and double the amount of power in fire and you can always switch to staff as second weapon for lava font and meteor for that dmg bonus while having fire attunement seems to sweet to give up.

You can't weapon swap in combat though.

@Infusion.7149 said:You can't weapon swap in combat though.

its actually kinda rough since it prevents you from camping fire stay in scepter warhorn use might gen and overload then switch to staff use lava font and meteor and switch back, don't knowwhy we can't when others can.

Do we remove the attunement cooldown penalty after completing an overload?

Yes, we should. It's, at least for me, the reason I don't overload in pvp/wvw, I just can't take the risk to overload, with no mobility (hey, no swiftness anymore), few chance of procs, and be blocked for 20sec.Transcendent Tempest trait should reduce CD of AFFINITY, not the singularity.

@Axl.8924 said:its actually kinda rough since it prevents you from camping fire stay in scepter warhorn use might gen and overload then switch to staff use lava font and meteor and switch back, don't knowwhy we can't when others can.

Because that would give us 40 weapon skills during a fight. To compensate for that, all cooldowns on weapon skills would need to be increased by a lot. Things like Meteor Shower every 50+ seconds does neither sound like fun nor balanced. Especially in times where there's a lot of boon stripping around (no stability) in combination with a lot of stuns.

Just like burst skills and adrenaline meter, tempest should have a separate meter that builds with skill use. Stolen from druid, damage and heals fill the meter at different coefficients.

The overload meter should have a cooldown all on its own. It doesn't affect attunement status. The meter switches skills every time the ele switches attunements. Just like warrior adrenaline bar.

Stability should be baseline. The elite spec should have always been about how overloads affect a fight, not if the ele can pull off an overload. What boons, how much healing, how much damage the overload does should be based off traits.

Edit: if that's too much of a buff, then increase the cooldown on overloads, decrease the build up effect that skills do, or reduce overall damage of overload. But as of right now, chill, increased cooldown of attunements, lack of stability, and etc all make the elite unplayable.

@Stallic.2397 said:. Stolen from druid, damage and heals fill the meter at different coefficients.

Naa Druid is kinda terrible as an example to follow. Simply using abilities in the attunement should build the overload.

@Stallic.2397 said:Just like burst skills and adrenaline meter, tempest should have a separate meter that builds with skill use. Stolen from druid, damage and heals fill the meter at different coefficients.

The overload meter should have a cooldown all on its own. It doesn't affect attunement status. The meter switches skills every time the ele switches attunements. Just like warrior adrenaline bar.

Stability should be baseline. The elite spec should have always been about how overloads affect a fight, not if the ele can pull off an overload. What boons, how much healing, how much damage the overload does should be based off traits.

Edit: if that's too much of a buff, then increase the cooldown on overloads, decrease the build up effect that skills do, or reduce overall damage of overload. But as of right now, chill, increased cooldown of attunements, lack of stability, and etc all make the elite unplayable.

I'm personally really not fund of the Druid's meter, because it does not reset when you leave combat. That might sound like a good thing, but that means it is balanced around that, in turn taking longer to charge from 0 to full. I'd much prefer something like the Warrior's adrenaline, which fills fast but resets upon leaving combat.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Stallic.2397 said:. Stolen from druid, damage and heals fill the meter at different coefficients.

I figured since tempest is used more as a healing support spec, healing should have higher effects. But if not, still fine

I kind of wish gw2 offer charging abilities like some other games have where skills can be used with a normal cast time or you can hold the skill key down to charge and increase its effectiveness based on how long you charged the skill up to a cap. This could be something that worked greatly for all profession generally i think.

I like the idea of air overload being over charged to strike faster and faster or earth overloads range growing in size over time. Water providing over healing / barrier and fire just needs to be better in general.

That said overloads are a bit weird atm. I think tempest is cool but overloads are a bit left behind. Then again i guess anet wants tempest to kind of be stuck in that support role so they are not doing much with it.

I think Tempest was designed for those that prefer to "camp" one element (like me) rather than switching frequently (core) or frantically (Weaver).I like how overloads work.I love to start fights with Overload Fire to quickly get stacks of Might for 'Power Underwhelming' to kick in.My build (most likely) is far from the META, but that's fine.

@Fueki.4753 said:I think Tempest was designed for those that prefer to "camp" one element (like me) rather than switching frequently (core) or frantically (Weaver).Having an adrelanine bar to fill wouldn't change that at all :p@Fueki.4753 said:I love to start fights with Overload Fire to quickly get stacks of Might for 'Power Underwhelming' to kick in.Assuming you're starting a fight, your adrenaline bar wouldn't take long to fill, since you have all your cooldowns ready?

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:I think Tempest was designed for those that prefer to "camp" one element (like me) rather than switching frequently (core) or frantically (Weaver).Having an adrelanine bar to fill wouldn't change that at all :p@Fueki.4753 said:I love to start fights with Overload Fire to quickly get stacks of Might for 'Power

Under

whelming' to kick in.Assuming you're starting a fight, your adrenaline bar wouldn't take long to fill, since you have all your cooldowns ready?

(On my Ele) Overload Fire usually is the very first thing I do in combat.It's quick and easy might stacking, as well as the new dps bonus from the top Tempest Grandmaster trait, making it a fine start into combat.The only sad part about it is, that much of the overworld trash is (almost) dead afterwards.Building up adrenaline would be a waste of time , as trash would die before I get to use Overload Fire.Leave Warrior mechanics at warrior instead on dumping down Tempest.

@Stallic.2397 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Stallic.2397 said:. Stolen from druid, damage and heals fill the meter at different coefficients.

Ya, I assumed the same thing until I actually played Druid and found that in practice it’s very clunky, mainly because all healing abilities were gated by the transform, so it ends up being a catch 22; can’t transform if you aren’t healing anyone, and can’t heal anyone without transforming.

Technically the idea could work on tempest since it’s not gated by a transform, but why risk a possible design flaw if there’s an option that we know would actually work without a catch 22

I think its become a major problem that basic skills can do so many things but the profession mechanics have become weaker and weaker, and this has pretty much affected all classes except Firebrand due to powercreep into basic skills.

The profession mechanic should never be weaker than weapon or utility skills, yet many of them are now, including Tempest overloads, which have to be heavily traited with things like Stability, auras, etc. in order to be viable. Buffing them would make Tempest overpowered, maybe.. but that's only because the profession mechanics of other classes have withered so much too.

Its all relative, but the healing has to start somewhere.

@ZDragon.3046 said:I kind of wish gw2 offer charging abilities like some other games have where skills can be used with a normal cast time or you can hold the skill key down to charge and increase its effectiveness based on how long you charged the skill up to a cap. This could be something that worked greatly for all profession generally i think.

I like the idea of air overload being over charged to strike faster and faster or earth overloads range growing in size over time. Water providing over healing / barrier and fire just needs to be better in general.

That said overloads are a bit weird atm. I think tempest is cool but overloads are a bit left behind. Then again i guess anet wants tempest to kind of be stuck in that support role so they are not doing much with it.

More or less like what ESO does with their light/heavy standard attack? I disagree. If you add something, it'll get used. The problem with those charge attacks is they slow combat down. In the case of ESO, it's rolled into their resource management, but it still makes for poor pacing, in my opinion.

I have the same issue with the overload design. GW2 combat plays pretty fast. It's one of the things I like about it. But here we take a class based on swapping into various skill sets as needed and give them these really slow 4s overload casts that then double their attunement swap cooldown? I'm sure some people prefer that to the rapid swapping of weaver and it's good to have options, but I would love it if we could find a way to do away with 4s casts and 20s lockouts for tempest and have overloads work differently.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:I kind of wish gw2 offer charging abilities like some other games have where skills can be used with a normal cast time or you can hold the skill key down to charge and increase its effectiveness based on how long you charged the skill up to a cap. This could be something that worked greatly for all profession generally i think.

I like the idea of air overload being over charged to strike faster and faster or earth overloads range growing in size over time. Water providing over healing / barrier and fire just needs to be better in general.

That said overloads are a bit weird atm. I think tempest is cool but overloads are a bit left behind. Then again i guess anet wants tempest to kind of be stuck in that support role so they are not doing much with it.

hmmm i was thinking not on standard auto attacks though im thinking more or cast skills like specifically alot of magic cast style skills in the case of warriors like being able to charge arc divider or maybe axe throw.

Possibly even some elites like mass invis, chill to the bone, etc

Some skills could work like that downed signet skill where the longer you hold it the stronger its effect and a circle expands under the player. Some skills might gain more damage while others just gain more range or effect duration etc.

I dont really like the idea for doing this for auto attacks though as i agree it would slow the game down too much. Im thinking more of skills with cds only which could have impact for the risk of going for the extra duration charge.

I have the same issue with the overload design. GW2 combat plays pretty fast. It's one of the things I like about it. But here we take a class based on swapping into various skill sets as needed and give them these really slow 4s overload casts that then double their attunement swap cooldown? I'm sure some people prefer that to the rapid swapping of weaver and it's good to have options, but I would love it if we could find a way to do away with 4s casts and 20s lockouts for tempest and have overloads work differently.

I would say overloads could certainly use a bit of QoL maybe even make them just standardly available the moment you swap into that attune after a .5s delay to prevent accidentally double tapping... maybe with a trait investment should you wait a bit longer though say 4-5 seconds the overload upgrades and can be used with a lesser cd or something or maybe that using 1 over load causes other lockouts to cool down faster. Then is i dont think tempest should be power crept into a direct offensive thing when anet kind of wants it to stay in the zone of a support or offensive support at best. But it certainly could use a tad bit of QoL

Bear in mind that when I say this, I'm speaking as someone who only recently started playing Tempest and has been enjoying my time thus far.

I definitely feel like Overloads need some kind of change, along with possibly some tweaks to the specialization overall. Mechanically speaking, I feel like they're a little on the lackluster side. A Reaper plays dramatically different in comparison to a core Necromancer or Scourge, because the core mechanic surrounding the class is changed. Tempest adds four abilities to the core Elementalist, but this doesn't feel like a really dramatic shift. Moreover, it feels like the specialization is overall focused on the generation of auras and supporting/buffing allies. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when I think "Tempest" and "Overloads," I think "huge storms" and "devastation."

I definitely like the idea of having an adrenaline-style bar to access Overloads. One idea I had that I was mulling over was possibly playing into the idea that when you use an Overload ability, you can't access that attunement until its cooldown is ended. Maybe a trait that improves the effect of Overload abilities, increasing healing/damage/area, but upon the skill's completion your attunement goes into a 20-second cooldown and your attunement immediately shifts into whatever attunement is to the left or right of your current attunement? For example, successfully Overloading with your fire attunement creates a fire tornado, but you're forced out of fire attunement and into water or earth attunement and can't access fire until the 20 seconds are up.

It's a rough idea, but I think the core philosophy of the Tempest is that these aren't characters who are careful, methodical, nor particularly subtle. The watchword for the Tempest is, in my opinion, "be reckless with power, and we'll deal with the consequences later." I like the idea of having a class that's mechanically inclined to bypass supposed limitations, only to be forced into a "cooldown" period for their actions. Perhaps something similar to the Photonic Blasting Module from the Holosmith?

Apologies for the scatterbrained thoughts, I'm just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.

I never liked Overloads.

Swap into an attunement > wait like 5 seconds > Channel a small AoE > End > Rewarded by having an extended Attunement recharge.

I would like if Overloads work something like :

• Upon Attuning to an element, an AoE effect centered around the player starts to grow, from 180 range to 400 range at max over 5 seconds
• Pulses, ramping up in effect over 5 seconds
• After 5 seconds the Overload automatically occurs and unleashes itself in a burst which ends the AoE effect, which will no longer activate until the player re-attunes to the Element.

@Yasai.3549 said:I never liked Overloads.

Swap into an attunement > wait like 5 seconds > Channel a small AoE > End > Rewarded by having an extended Attunement recharge.

I would like if Overloads work something like :

• Upon Attuning to an element, an AoE effect centered around the player starts to grow, from 180 range to 400 range at max over 5 seconds
• Pulses, ramping up in effect over 5 seconds
• After 5 seconds the Overload automatically occurs and unleashes itself in a burst which ends the AoE effect, which will no longer activate until the player re-attunes to the Element.

Yes, let us give elementalists even more on-node dueling power, so it doesn't matter whether it's a condi weaver or sustain tempest, you are better off letting elementalists play the game solo.

@"ROMANG.1903" said:As an elementalist main ever since I've started playing (around 7 years ago), Tempest has always bugged me as a very passive gameplay: You swap into an attunement, wait a few seconds, and use your overload. The idea of reworking overloads into burst skills, with an adrenaline bar, aims to shift the Tempest elite spec into a more pro-active playstyle without removing the core phylosophy: Rewarding players for sticking to an attunement.

I'm not convinced that adding a ressource to build in order to use a skill make this skill more proactive than it already is.

Leaning into the details of this warrior-inspired mechanic, there are obviously aspects that need further discussion:

• How many adrenaline thresholds are there? One? Three? Even more?

Why adrenaline and why would you even consider have a comparable amount or even a superior amount to what the warrior (for which it's the profession's mechanism) have?

• Do we retain current overloads effects for all weapons, or do we make different ones for each of them?

The overloads are mean't to be attunment overload not weapon overload. Their "form" is meant to represent the idea of a tempest: fire tempest, storm, sand tempest, typhon.

• Do we simply replace the current 4 seconds cooldown with an adrenaline bar, or do we also change or remove things like the channel time?
• Do we remove the attunement cooldown penalty after completing an overload?

Why would you be looking for even less trade-off? Why not considering a different tradeoff and instead of adding an adrenaline cost, give it an endurance cost that force you to chose whether you want to overload or you want to keep your dodges. I mean, with an endurance cost/tradeoff, you can totally remove the notion of cooldowns (pre and post) and even consider removing the need to channel the skill. However, with an "adrenaline cost" there is basically no tradeoff compared to the current overload, so why bother to reduce the current tradeoffs?

Though I don't have the answers for all of these questions, I think this change has the potential to revigorate Tempest as an interesting and fun class to play, also fitting very well alongside Shouts and Warhorn as a warrior-inspired specialization.

Well, you seem more driven by the idea of modifying the current tradeoff than making the tempest more interesting and fun to play.

While I would personnally welcome a "burst" mechanism on one of the elementalist's e-spec, I don't think that trying to fit it on the tempest would be the thing to do. And to be honest, I already find the tempest fun to play. Sure it is less nervous than weaver and core but it offer an unique and solid gameplay which is far from being underwhelming.

What I'd like to see that can be similar to an adrenaline mechanism on the elementalist is already done (clumsily) by weaver's elite skill weave self. I can imagine something like this (It's a rough draft around a shaman thematic making use of totems and reviving the old wards of gw):

Shaman:Base attunment CD increased by 50%. (15 seconds, roughly 13s traited in arcane). Weapon mace main hand. Utility skill: physical (for more combo finishers).

Shaman mechanism (tied to the weapon switch key and only usable while in combat):

• Elemental connection: For 8 seconds (up to 10 seconds traited) your attunment recharge twice faster (8 seconds, roughly 7s traited in arcane) and you gather energy whenever you switch attunment. CD: 30 seconds.
• Totem invocation: summon a totem (based on your current attunment) to ward the targeted area (totem are similar to banner, they do not have life and picking them up remove them and will refound a part of the CD of elemental connection when traited). The totem deplete X amount of energy every 3 seconds and disappear when you no longer have any energy. (This skill can only be used while in elemental connection. Using this skill end elemental connection.)
• Totem of conflagration (fire): Foes in range are burnt (1 second) every 3 seconds. Fire field.
• Zephyr totem (air): Increase allies movement speed. Lightning field.
• Frost soil totem (earth): Reduce incoming healing for downed foes in range. Frost field. (Yeah it's a gimmick to have a useable field in earth attunment)
• Cleansing totem (water): Allies in range lose a condition every 3 seconds. Water field.

The same kind of mechanism can be imagined for different kind of skills obviously, like I said I'm just trying my hand at a shaman flavored mechanism.

I may be in the minority but I really like tempest and the feel of overloads. Only a few things I would love to see tweaked to bring it up to level with some other specs:

-Harmonious Conduit - should apply more stacks of stab and/or pulse stab. As-is it's just enough to make the overload an okay stun-break but you usually need to "cover" overloads with other skills to have a chance at completing, especially if there's a necro around cause it WILL get corrupted.-Channeling/canceling overloads - I think the increased attune CD should only happen if the overload completes successfully. I'd also reduce the channel times from 4 seconds to 2.5-3 seconds.-Aura application - IMO It would be nice if it was at the beginning and not end of the overload.-Overload Water - Add a pulsing (low) damage effect and chill enemies in your path, bubble briefly dazes enemies when it "pops" at the end of the overload.-Overload Earth - Make the final dust storm effect larger and pbaoe on the caster-Overload Fire - Make the cast time the same as other overloads (currently says it's 4 but is actually ~4.5)-Overload Air - Increase # of enemy targets back to 5 from 3.

That's about it imo, some minor tweaks that would really help tempest viability in pvp without a major re-work or making anything stoopid OP.