Buff core necro stability access

Let's be honest. Unless you got an a-net tag next to your name, you're not gonna pretend core necro is on pair with elite specs and an alternative playstyle with similar overall power budget. We know it's not, on so many levels.

And one of those "levels" is stability access. I'm not gonna complain about reaper, because being a melee spec it deserves better stability access.But when a scourge of all things, the caster spec, with shades that can can be used even when face down in the ground still gets better access to stab (trail of anguish) then core necro i call bs.

Then again 'tis but a fleshwound compare to total sum of woes of the game's weakest spec in general, not just among cores.

Some stability mimimimi here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/94930/a-little-wish-for-balancing-to-come

The thing is that the necromancer don't lack stability per se. The necromancer lack ways to prevent incoming hard CC. The difference may be minute but it's a very important difference.

Where other have extra instant mobility, dodges, blinds, blocks or invulnerability frame that work like additionnal hard CC counter, the necromancer is stuck with only a balanced amount of stability and some blinds sources.

Asking for more stability is a nice shortcut to answer the feeling that the necromancer is weak against hard CC but it miss the essence of the issue.

In my opinion, what ANet should do is to tie hard CC duration/launch distance reduction to toughness. It would also make it possible to build in such a way that you don't stay helplessly locked by chained CC. Thus, you could have:

• Toughness reducing hard CC duration by a %age per toughness point (with a ratio roughly equivalent to 10% for every 400 point of toughness) on a linear curb.
• Some traits/sigils/runes improving reduction of hard CC or reducing the resilience of your foe against your hard CC.
• Hard CC would always interrupt unless there is a block/dodge/blind/ (invuln frame). Because I believe interrupts are good for the game health while being locked down and helpless in front of hard CC is more frustrating than anything and thus less healthy for the game.

As an example, for the necromancer it would mean:

• Knight amulet: 1200 toughness for 30% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Sigil of savagery: 30% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Death carapace: up to 600 toughness which is 15% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• A toughness rune: up to 300 toughness for 7.5% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Then a slight buff to FitG giving it a 50% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction while in shroud for example.

And, well, I believe it would help the necromancer a lot more to survive CC lock than more stability. It would also make WvW zerg fight a bit more aggressive. It would probably even improve PvE experience, open encounter designs that promote high toughness build... etc.

Well, obviously this would go along some tweeks to the way stability work.

@Dadnir.5038 said:The thing is that the necromancer don't lack stability per se. The necromancer lack ways to prevent incoming hard CC. The difference may be minute but it's a very important difference.

Where other have extra instant mobility, dodges, blinds, blocks or invulnerability frame that work like additionnal hard CC counter, the necromancer is stuck with only a balanced amount of stability and some blinds sources.

Asking for more stability is a nice shortcut to answer the feeling that the necromancer is weak against hard CC but it miss the essence of the issue.

In my opinion, what ANet should do is to tie hard CC duration/launch distance reduction to toughness. It would also make it possible to build in such a way that you don't stay helplessly locked by chained CC. Thus, you could have:

• Toughness reducing hard CC duration by a %age per toughness point (with a ratio roughly equivalent to 10% for every 400 point of toughness) on a linear curb.
• Some traits/sigils/runes improving reduction of hard CC or reducing the resilience of your foe against your hard CC.
• Hard CC would always interrupt unless there is a block/dodge/blind/ (invuln frame). Because I believe interrupts are good for the game health while being locked down and helpless in front of hard CC is more frustrating than anything and thus less healthy for the game.

As an example, for the necromancer it would mean:

• Knight amulet: 1200 toughness for 30% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Sigil of savagery: 30% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Death carapace: up to 600 toughness which is 15% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• A toughness rune: up to 300 toughness for 7.5% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Then a slight buff to FitG giving it a 50% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction while in shroud for example.

And, well, I believe it would help the necromancer a lot more to survive CC lock than more stability. It would also make WvW zerg fight a bit more aggressive. It would probably even improve PvE experience, open encounter designs that promote high toughness build... etc.

Well, obviously this would go along some tweeks to the way stability work.

Truth be told stab doesn't help with cripple and stuff like that i think, it effects knockbacks stun disorients i think?

Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have gimped foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.

Changes I would support:

Foot In The Grave:Break stun and gain Stability ( x1, 3s ) when entering Shroud. Gain Stability again when exiting Shroud ( x2, 4s ).

Well Of Power:Target area pulses, converting conditions on allies in to boons and granting Stability per condition converted ( x1, 3s, 1s ICD ).

I would rather see how much everything is going to be toned down in competitive modes by the patch. Core necro is incredibly tanky compared to its elite specs.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Changes I would support:

Foot In The Grave:Break stun and gain Stability ( x1, 3s ) when entering Shroud. Gain Stability again when exiting Shroud ( x2, 4s ).

ah yes, near perma stab with no conc is what screams "balance" to me :D

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

Core:damage: mediocreaoe: badrange: goodsustain goodcc resistance: badsupport: mediocre

Reaper:damage: goodaoe: mediocrerange: badsustain: mediocrecc resistance: goodsupport: bad

Scourge:damage: badaoe: goodrange: mediocresustain badcc resistance: mediocresupport: good

Mechanically the specs a balanced.

Side note regarding the support capabilities because I think not everyone will agreee with me here:Good for scourge because it has support built in its general mechanic.Medicore for core because it can pick 3 core traitlines making it easier to run a support traitline like blood magic without giving up too much other utility.Bad for reaper as it's 100% selfish as long as you don't pick blood magic and even when you pick it, the spec is less flexible than core regarding support.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Changes I would support:

Foot In The Grave:Break stun and gain Stability ( x1, 3s ) when entering Shroud. Gain Stability again when exiting Shroud ( x2, 4s ).

Clearly OP.Only thing that needs to happen to FitG is one more stack of stab for between 2~4s, nothing more.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Clearly OP.Only thing that needs to happen to FitG is one more stack of stab for between 2~4s, nothing more.

@"Sobx.1758" said:ah yes, near perma stab with no conc is what screams "balance" to me :D

FitG has terrible scaling. If taking Well Of Power and assuming it's converting conditions every pulse ( the requirement to get more stacks of Stability, if I wasn't clear in my description ) you might be able to get to 10 stacks of Stability(ish?) for like, 10 seconds? Maybe? Both the Well and the trait have poor scaling is the point, and even with high Concentration you couldn't maintain perma-Stab.

The only way this would be a real problem is with Reaper, Infusing Terror and "Chilled to the Bone!". But if you're giving up Death Perception you're going to have to invest in Precision some where.

I didn't think my suggestion entirely through, so yeah it's probably too strong, particularly with Reaper. I'd have to think on it harder with more consideration for how it would interact with other things before settling but, I don't think it would be OP for core Necro at least, and probably not for Scourge.

Either way, I'm not personally concerned with Stability access. I do just fine with core Necro, often playing full Berserker and not using any Stability. The only thing that consistently gives me trouble is Warriors.

@Dadnir.5038 said:The thing is that the necromancer don't lack stability per se. The necromancer lack ways to prevent incoming hard CC. The difference may be minute but it's a very important difference.

Where other have extra instant mobility, dodges, blinds, blocks or invulnerability frame that work like additionnal hard CC counter, the necromancer is stuck with only a balanced amount of stability and some blinds sources.

Asking for more stability is a nice shortcut to answer the feeling that the necromancer is weak against hard CC but it miss the essence of the issue.

In my opinion, what ANet should do is to tie hard CC duration/launch distance reduction to toughness. It would also make it possible to build in such a way that you don't stay helplessly locked by chained CC. Thus, you could have:

• Toughness reducing hard CC duration by a %age per toughness point (with a ratio roughly equivalent to 10% for every 400 point of toughness) on a linear curb.
• Some traits/sigils/runes improving reduction of hard CC or reducing the resilience of your foe against your hard CC.
• Hard CC would always interrupt unless there is a block/dodge/blind/ (invuln frame). Because I believe interrupts are good for the game health while being locked down and helpless in front of hard CC is more frustrating than anything and thus less healthy for the game.

As an example, for the necromancer it would mean:

• Knight amulet: 1200 toughness for 30% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Sigil of savagery: 30% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Death carapace: up to 600 toughness which is 15% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• A toughness rune: up to 300 toughness for 7.5% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction.
• Then a slight buff to FitG giving it a 50% hard CC duration/launch distance reduction while in shroud for example.

And, well, I believe it would help the necromancer a lot more to survive CC lock than more stability. It would also make WvW zerg fight a bit more aggressive. It would probably even improve PvE experience, open encounter designs that promote high toughness build... etc.

Well, obviously this would go along some tweeks to the way stability work.

This should be a thing. Letting toughness dictate cc duration would incentivize people to put more toughness in their build, which would drive down DPS while helping people survive longer in fights, due to lower cc duration and taking less damage. It could also help by introducing more build diversity. Fully support introducing something like this into the game.

One of the things I would like to see in Death Magic is a trait that proc's one 3 sec stab on exiting shroud. This, with FitG's stab on entry, would help build a real tank play style in PvE and add sustain in competitive modes.

@KrHome.1920 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

You already have easy access to stab, you choose to use something else and now you want to add a free stab on top of "your desired build". That makes no sense.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Stability stacks, now, and some skills remove multiple stacks. Stab is also a boon and is vulnerable to stripping and corruption. The use of stab and control effects have changed a lot over the years.

There has been power creep around hard CC to account for.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

"Easy" he says. 1 stack for 3s on shroud entry. Yeah real ez pz vs cc chains and professions that get to pop 10 stacks of stab with their utilities. Oh right, there's the "other source" - well of power full 1 stack for 1 second. Op as hell..

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

How is that a direct response to what I said?

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Yup, I say "easy", because it is easy.And remember to keep crying about power creep, but when it comes to proposing the changes to the game, don't try to reduce the power creep, instead just kittening buff EVERYTHING to the faceroll level. Perfectly logical solution.

@"Sobx.1758" said:Yup, I say "easy", because it is easy.And remember to keep crying about power creep, but when it comes to proposing the changes to the game, don't try to reduce the power creep, instead just kittening buff EVERYTHING to the faceroll level. Perfectly logical solution.

While I agree with you that the necromancer have easy access to stab (when built for it) and overall a balanced amount of stab sources, the fact is that other professions have more way to prevent incoming hard CC (instant mobility, aegis, block, invulnerability, evade skills, extra dodge). Which mean that there is an imbalance between the necromancer and other professions regarding the ability to face hard CC.

Players plainly ask for more stability because they just find that they are weaker than other against hard CC. And, no, the necromancer isn't tankier than other professions. It's base survivability may be higher but at the same time it's potential survivability is rock bottom. If the necromancer really was tankier than other professions, the sPvP subforum would have been filled to the brim with threads asking to nerf it's survivability, which is not the case.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Yup, I say "easy", because it is easy.And remember to keep crying about power creep, but when it comes to proposing the changes to the game, don't try to reduce the power creep, instead just kittening buff EVERYTHING to the faceroll level. Perfectly logical solution.

And that's really all there is to it -but somehow people are still arguing they don't have enough stab when they don't even use what's available to them.You say that they complain because they are weaker than others against hard cc -I disagree, it's more like they're weeker than some and still stronger than the others. Also from what I see, they mostly want to have stab splattered "here and there" throughout their fav builds just so they can faceroll more. That's just stupid.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Yup, I say "easy", because it is easy.And remember to keep crying about power creep, but when it comes to proposing the changes to the game, don't try to reduce the power creep, instead just kittening buff EVERYTHING to the faceroll level. Perfectly logical solution.

Tell me, how many blocks does Necro have? How many evades? How about invulnerabilities? Vigor? Endurance regeneration at all?

The answer for all of those is 0. So, given that even with Blinds, Necro is very weak with only Deathly Swarm (slow projectile) and Well of Darkness for Blinds with a cast time short enough to use in response to an incoming attack, Necro has no choice but to facetank virtually all incoming CC. Other professions have options to outright avoid it. Necro doesn't.

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Yup, I say "easy", because it is easy.And remember to keep crying about power creep, but when it comes to proposing the changes to the game, don't try to reduce the power creep, instead just kittening buff EVERYTHING to the faceroll level. Perfectly logical solution.

Well there is regen on staff but not much, its that face tanking is generally awful as a strategy.

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Yup, I say "easy", because it is easy.And remember to keep crying about power creep, but when it comes to proposing the changes to the game, don't try to reduce the power creep, instead just kittening buff EVERYTHING to the faceroll level. Perfectly logical solution.

Oh my bad, didn't see the dodge-removing patch notes. In that case, put stab on every necro skill -that way he won't "have to facetank all incoming cc" and it would vastly improve the decisionmaking when playing it, because it's not like people already use it to run into groups of enemies and spam aoes.

Or, you know, stop lying to push your agenda.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Yup, I say "easy", because it is easy.And remember to keep crying about power creep, but when it comes to proposing the changes to the game, don't try to reduce the power creep, instead just kittening buff EVERYTHING to the faceroll level. Perfectly logical solution.

Or you could stop lying to push yours. Necro has the 2 dodges. Everyone else has that plus evades on skills, vigor, blocks, and invulnerabilities. Some of the other professions get prolific Stability access in addition to all of that. Necro gets to avoid 2 attacks and that's it, no matter how they decide to kit up. All 8 other professions have many, many more avoidance options available to them and some even have better facetank option in addition to those.