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No one really wants balance


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Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved. Classes are generally balance, but there are root issues that everyone lets fade out into obscurity because that is part of their strength. Unfortunately it is also part of their enemy's strength. So, hit the enemy in general and their skills and traits versus what really needs to happen. Notice how boon spam, boon application, and boon sharing dont hang around on the first page for long. Neither do class roles and identity justifications. This forum has always been, but got even worse now, a place for rock paper scissor nerf wars. You must realise that it is a circle, and if your cries succeed, you will get the same treatment shortly. Your excuses as to why a class shouldn't be able to do this, and the logic and reasoning you use to fortify that argument, can be flipped and used on you just as easily. For example if you are very mobile, you should not be a duelist. On the flip, if you are support, you should not be a duelist. If you tank, you should not be a duelist. Doesn't make sense unless it doesn't apply to you, but applies to your enemy. The REAL problems are simply extreme boons powercreeping, and a lack of a real hard line defining class identity. People are stuck in this limbo of trying to be who they want and the original vision. Classes should not be able to excel at everything if every class can not excel at everything. Define who is meant for what in conquest, make it so, and ignore the cries elsewise. People will join their hard counters and playing against that and failing can only be blamed on one at that point. But since we are here can you nerf them and buff me?

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@lightstalker.1498 said:Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved. Classes are generally balanceThat is quite the generalized assumption. While there might be more viable builds than usual right now, that doesnt mean that the current state of class balance is good or that the game is fun to play. I think most people agree that power creep is the biggest issue in pvp, and the people who cry for nerfs without any argument are the vocal minority and are usually trolling.

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right now all classes have something broken that need a nerfweavers need a nerf on evadeswarriors need a nerf on damage and ccfb/guards need a nerf on burn dmg and sustainthiefs need a nerf on mobility and stealthmirage need a nerf on Infinite horizonrangers need a nerf on sustain and pet dmgherald need a nerf on sustain

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Eh, disagree completely with OP, at least in my case.

Perhaps it's because I've never played a build widely acknowledged to be brokenly good, but I've never felt the need to protest nerfing something the community generally recognizes as too strong for any class I've played. I main ranger, and I never used Sic Em soulbeast before that was nerfed, nor did I run boonbeast until well after it was nerfed; I generally run a different build, but revert to those two for specific team comps. On the other hand, I do generally support nerfing things that I run into on enemies that just don't seem to have a lot of reasonable counterplay.

So yeah - I've personally never felt like defending anything widely accused of being too good, whether it's for a class I play or not.

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Everything is spammable, this is my main complaint..

Everything is spammable because every class have everything... not mentioning the visual clutter of having 2~3 AOE spammers in a point. Thats why this PVP is so ugly and unpleasant.

The MMR system should enforce roles to avoid the stack of mechanics, or the class changes to enforce roles and strictic rules.Every drop of new elite specs xpacs only makes problems worse, whats next on next xpac? warriors with invisibilty and teleport? boon shout thievs? shroud to mesmers? Guardian with rifle and dead eye mechanics to have more one shooters? this model just exausthed.

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Something like cc spam holo needed nerfed. Condi mirage needed nerfed. Deadeye stealth one shots needed nerfed...

Theres a lot of unneeded nerf threads going on nowadays. People don't like stuff that kills them. Understandable... But in general, I think Anet is going in the right direction of nerfing what's OP.

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Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved.I don't agree with that.

I believe in honest intentions.

The problem is that many (not all) players do not understand the game to an extent to be able to make usefull / constructive suggestions.

90% of the balance suggestions we can read in this forum would make the game worse. But contrary to the OP I think this is just a result of a lack of understanding of the game.

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@"KrHome.1920" said:

90% of the balance suggestions we can read in this forum would make the game worse. But contrary to the OP I think this is just a result of a lack of understanding of the game.

I agree with this sentiment. I think what most players would be satisfied with is a reasonable chance to win pitted against a reasonable chance to lose. This doesn't mean that every class needs to be able to do all the same things at the same level, but more along the lines of "if I don't panic and conserve some escape tools, I have what it takes to disengage from fights I can't win instead of perma-lockdown/oneshot/other forms of no counterplay cheese." Classes that lack these escape tools should either have what it takes to facetank the damage or sustain through it. And guess what? To a great extent, this is already possible. It's just that some classes are too good at forcing the disengage, and others have such high burst and low reset times that they can consistently overwhelm even patient and non-panicked opponents. Even then, a viable solution is often simply to not fight a build you can't drive off point, and find other ways to help your team. Team comp and the matchmaker struggling to work with a dwinding population can really mess with that, but I feel that has less to do with combat design/balance and more to do with mismanagement of the game mode as a whole.

The problem is that we get posters on the forums who are new to pvp... which means they've been spoiled by pve and think they actually know their class/the game at large. The result is that they get their face nuked off in spvp, and think it's an OP enemy rather than their own lack of experience and skill, and we get another nerf thread.

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@"SeikeNz.3526" said:right now all classes have something broken that need a nerf

herald need a nerf on sustain

herald is MEDICORE sustain ... we should rly take a look on spellbr or holo ... nerfs that perma cc machines and " i can get away everytime with several blocks and mitigations skills and PASSIVES" ....

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I agree people are way too concerned about balance, and the reasons they have for feeling that way are usually pretty random X killed me so X is overpowered arguments.

Occasionally, there will be an actual hiccup/oversight that almost everyone can come together and say is broken one way or the other, and at that point changes make sense and would be expected. That's not a super unique concept though, it happens with pretty much every competitive game. There will always be super heated, bordering on harassment-level debates on what is overpowered or underpowered. It was the same way 4 years ago when HoT came out, and even before then if people would take off their rose-tinted glasses, as I heard someone put it.

Personally i'd rather have a fun and functional sPvP over a balanced one. If at it's core; it isn't fun or fair, changing that should take priority over balancing it. An unbalanced game can still be fun, but a boring game can still be balanced.

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People want to play what’s fun I think. The balance seems good compared to awhile ago and yet ppl commonly complain about stuff like thief, “no dp thief, no portal” and say it just isn’t fun. For me I thought condi thief in this meta was fun becuz to play it well in this meta I had to focus a lot of positioning and overall strategy instead of just combos which power builds are heavier in and yet most people just said it’s skillless and op, though at least on NA recently I was like the only one as far as I know playing it commonly in high ranks and ats(besides a few, though I never had trouble with them). I personally also want to play what’s fun so I’m not gonna say I’m better but people are more willing to just post w.e and make these claims as a facade that they are looking for balance when I don’t think they really are

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@Dantheman.3589 said:People want to play what’s fun I think. The balance seems good compared to awhile ago and yet ppl commonly complain about stuff like thief, “no dp thief, no portal” and say it just isn’t fun. For me I thought condi thief in this meta was fun becuz to play it well in this meta I had to focus a lot of positioning and overall strategy instead of just combos which power builds are heavier in and yet most people just said it’s skillless and op, though at least on NA recently I was like the only one as far as I know playing it commonly in high ranks and ats(besides a few, though I never had trouble with them). I personally also want to play what’s fun so I’m not gonna say I’m better but people are more willing to just post w.e and make these claims as a facade that they are looking for balance when I don’t think they really are

As a thief main now I disagree. I think condi thief is the least fun and least skilled. No offense. Sd you have to time to press 3 to evade once. You have to actively watch something to press it.

Even pw. Arguebly takes less skill since you spam and already evade but you are rooted in place and might hit thin air.

Condi thief. You port in. Roll around and because it's a dodge nothing can hit you then you just port out wait for int Regen and repeat. The only positioning you need is have a place to port out but you do that with sd anything.

I am so glad they nerfed it.

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@TorQ.7041 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:People want to play what’s fun I think. The balance seems good compared to awhile ago and yet ppl commonly complain about stuff like thief, “no dp thief, no portal” and say it just isn’t fun. For me I thought condi thief in this meta was fun becuz to play it well in this meta I had to focus a lot of positioning and overall strategy instead of just combos which power builds are heavier in and yet most people just said it’s skillless and op, though at least on NA recently I was like the only one as far as I know playing it commonly in high ranks and ats(besides a few, though I never had trouble with them). I personally also want to play what’s fun so I’m not gonna say I’m better but people are more willing to just post w.e and make these claims as a facade that they are looking for balance when I don’t think they really are

As a thief main now I disagree. I think condi thief is the least fun and least skilled. No offense. Sd you have to time to press 3 to evade once. You have to actively watch something to press it.

Even pw. Arguebly takes less skill since you spam and already evade but you are rooted in place and might hit thin air.

Condi thief. You port in. Roll around and because it's a dodge nothing can hit you then you just port out wait for int Regen and repeat. The only positioning you need is have a place to port out but you do that with sd anything.

I am so glad they nerfed it.

Actually as I mentioned strategy- just port in and out over and over is not the highest level of skill on condi thief. One of the main I would do is detarget and evade as many times as I had to while condi ticks and then retarget at good times to position behind for sword three, again I’m one of the few players that would do this but it is clearly one of the most effective strategies possible on condi thief. As far as this strategy which is useful pretty often the “rework” was actually a nice buff ofc with a trade off of burst that I already felt was excessive.Again as I said this is an exaggeration almost never to be effective would I just port in and out over and over. Yes it is skillless in some regards but claiming that’s all it does and that there is no skill involved is just inaccurateEdit: also the perfect use of tricks to maintain positioning. I was in all probability the one who added withdraw+RFI+ Ds with trickster to the meta which ended up being the most popular choice hands down

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@lightstalker.1498 said:Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved.

Yeah you got me... I don't want the 9 classes I play nerfed, only the rest. Guess I'm G U I L T Y !

Feel free to show off your pvp pizza pie, I am curious to see if it's got that papa johns cut.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@lightstalker.1498 said:Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved. Classes are generally balanceThat is quite the generalized assumption. While there might be more viable builds than usual right now, that doesnt mean that the current state of class balance is good or that the game is fun to play. I think most people agree that power creep is the biggest issue in pvp, and the people who cry for nerfs without any argument are the vocal minority and are usually trolling.

It's a massive generalization, but it's not untrue considering that GW2 is so shallow that it more or less only supports two sorts of meta-tier builds (which manage to spread themselves arbitrarily across classes based on patch notes). The generalization comes from GW2's shallow gameplay. It's extremely hard to have any distinct roles with unique skill ceiling challenges when the only things that lead to combat success in GW2 PvP is being invulnerable while doing damage, and avoiding one's build hard counters. You're going to get this sort of design bottleneck when not only do the classes all share an almost identical access to:

  • Means of risk-reduction during burst rotations (invuln, block, evade, teleports, stability)
  • Passive self-healing that can trigger and tick during burst rotations
  • A universal set of easily-acquired stat buffs (boons)
  • Instantaneous or near-instant damage output (often paired with hard CC)
  • The ability to attack from ludicrous distances or without relying on projectiles.

Every meta build that exists aims to utilize these five qualities, and most come packaged with at least four of them. These four aspects determine exactly how every fight will pass in GW2, and it stifles player creativity by homogenizing combat into basically two build categories: the teleport/stability version that bursts in melee, or a more ranged-oriented variant that doesn't rely on direct-to-target teleports in order to start its burst. The only thing keeping these two builds from being exactly the same across all classes are arbitrary patch notes and flavor-based design decisions, but the flaw still manages to show through (i.e. Thief engages like a Revanant engages like a Soulbeast engages like a Guardian, for instance). What this means for OP's point isn't so much that he's right about people actively being duplicitous when they ask for buffs or nerfs, but it's more as if people can't be anything but inherently selfish when they ask for buffs to their favorite class or nerfs for their most prominent hard-counter. There is so much overlap in playstyle when it comes to the meta-class builds, that everyone asking for buffs and nerfs, regardless for whichever class, is more or less asking for the same exact thing.

If you wanted patch notes to mean anything, or gain any sort of meaningful potential, you would need to actually have real class roles in your role-playing video game. GW2 lacks those, so instead of big plays and huge brains, you end up with rock-paper-scissors while people do a maypole dance around a map until a number ticks up to 500.

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@lightstalker.1498 said:Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved.

I'm sure that's true for some people. The problem is this: Anet launched a game that clearly wasn't finished in a lot of ways (Necro shroud 5 being missing was an obvious example). Many of the traits were so boring and clearly devoid of creative investment such as stuff like Bolt to the Heart, Close to Death, and (later) Swift Termination all being the same trait; or any trait that grants one stat based on another, etc. Later, Anet reworks the trait system by removing a lot of options to make the experience easier to learn and balance. Unfortunately, many of the traits that survived the rework were not changed in any significant way. Until the devs and players realize the game is still in the design phase, balance discussions are a waste of time.

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I want core mesmer to be nerfed. But not in the way people think. I think the 1 shot the dmg and stealth can stay. Since that it is pretty glass and you can die. There are also reveals.

What I would like is mirror blade to have some sort of animation, light or sound, 1 second prior to the jump. So I have time to dodge.

Mirage used to be totally fine because you can see it time to time. So you can look at the moment and think. Oh shit mesmer is on map and you can see it puff in a distance.

With the massive amount of stealth core has. It can stealth half way across the map and blink next to you and there's nothing you can do about it because you can't see or hear. Thats just plain stuipd.

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I think that, while there is a contingent of people who absolutely just want their main buffed and everything else nerfed so they can steamroll (or continue to steamroll) everything, there is also a large group of people who want a match where they don't feel like they were robbed of a good game experience due to some mechanic that is excessively punishing or difficult to respond to.

What constitutes "difficult to respond to" often varies based on the class someone plays, the classes it is weak or strong against, their relative skill level, and any number of other situations, so there are generally a lot of different lenses that people are viewing the subject of competitive imbalance through.

I don't think its fair to shovel everyone into the "everyone just wants Z buffed or Y nerfed because Y counters Z and they happen to play Z".

But at the same time, I agree with the sentiment that people should at least play around with the classes they want nerfed before coming to the forums, to see whether or not that flashy gameplay that just stomped you was someone being carried by their class, or someone who spent time becoming skilled at their class. I've seen no small number of posts where people seem to ignore gameplay that denotes a skilled player and attribute it to the class or the build they play, while at the same time claiming that their suggested fixes promote skillful play when they're just blanket nerfs/unnecessary buffs in disguise.

@KrHome.1920 said:The problem is that many (not all) players do not understand the game to an extent to be able to make usefull / constructive suggestions.90% of the balance suggestions we can read in this forum would make the game worse. But contrary to the OP I think this is just a result of a lack of understanding of the game.

This is absolutely true though. Please at least try the class you want nerfed before you come asking for things on the forums, and try to assess whether mechanics you have make certain matchups excessively unfair. If nothing else, it'll give you some perspective as to why people think your class is busted even if you have put a lot of effort into learning it and are skilled at it. I used to think (and still do) think thief was fine, for instance; but after seeing all the upset remarks from Crinn and Burnfall and other necro mains being just livid vs it, I decided to go play reaper/necro vs thief and that matchup is stupid levels of tilted in the thiefs favor.

Even though the thief has to be reasonably skilled to be rewarded, the necro is usually not rewarded in that matchup even if they also are. I'm pretty sure there's other situations like that.

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