Firebrands, the most enigmatic class. Do they need a nerf? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Firebrands, the most enigmatic class. Do they need a nerf?

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 12, 2020 in PVP

I’ve watched two 1 vs 1 finals in NA & EU recently and both were won by Firebrands.
There is something odd about this class that I can’t put a finger on.
It looks very balanced but thrashes almost every other class in a 1 on 1.
And yet there seems to be very few complains against them.
What are your thoughts on this enigmatic class?

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Firebrands, the most enigmatic class. Do they need a nerf? 109 votes

FB needs some nerfs
68%
Trevor Boyer.6524HardRider.2980Gryxis.6950Axl.8924Chaith.8256Vagrant.7206Shaogin.2679Exedore.6320ArthurDent.9538Lighter.5631Anna.7845Arkantos.7460mrauls.6519Slapinator.4196LadyKitty.6120Master Ketsu.4569mortrialus.3062otto.5684wasss.1208Emapudapus.1307 75 votes
FB does not need nerfs
15%
Ragnarox.9601Alek Seven.2374Buran.3796Arken.3725xDudisx.5914ollbirtan.2915OutOfOrder.3719ChronosCosmos.9450Aran.9374Poledra Val.1490Saharo Gravewind.5120Dave.6819Kuma.1503Yuyo.5697Danjorus.2671WIR BRAUCHEN ONE EIGHTY.4257rdmaldonado.6849 17 votes
Others
7%
Grimjack.8130Rettan.9603Aeolus.3615Hannelore.8153DanAlcedo.3281Malsheem.1794Shao.7236thepenmonster.3621 8 votes
PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose
8%
Raiden The Beast.3016ParadoX.3124Ragnar.4257Matiole.6857lare.5129Sikieiki.3189LolLookAtMyAP.8394aymnad.9023SeikeNz.3526 9 votes
<13

Comments

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    I don't know what forums you're reading, but they're complained about everywhere.

    FB definitely needs some tuning down.

    That said, you shouldn't read too much in to the 1v1 tournaments. They don't really correlate to 5v5 Conquest PvP. You see some really weird builds in the 1v1 tournaments, alot of them specifically built to play around the 1v1 Map Mechanic, that just don't work in 5v5.

    Harrier FB is an example of that. Very good in 1v1, but just not worth it in 5v5 where running around with 11k HP means you're a free kill to any team with more than 70 collective IQ, and where the Conquest format gives more advantage to high-mobility builds. And I don't know if you watched tonight's tournament closely, but the FB was losing the semifinal, and only won by getting a lucky knock-back into the green expanding death-zone. If it was a regular PvP map, the weaver would've won.

    Also, how many tournaments have there been in the last 6 months? It's, like, 50 or more. And you're going to cherry-pick just 2 of them? How many of them weren't won by FBs? If you run that many tournaments, obviously FB will win some of them.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8JaWC5aA1J8U3uYB-hwhmA/videos

    The previous 3 finals were...... warrior vs ranger, weaver vs weaver, and weaver vs (power) mirage. Does this mean that, if you'd asked this question last week, it would have been "why is core ranger so much better than FB"? Or does it actually mean that 1v1 tournaments are variable as kitten and more dependent on which players turn up than what build is best? The 3 before that...... ranger vs FB (ranger won), weaver vs weaver, deadeye vs ranger.

    People have such short attention spans :/

    Maybe they need to do a season where everyone is locked to the same build as everyone else, solo-queue only, and then when the top 50 is shockingly still all the exact same people as before, everyone will finally accept that if they got beat, it's because of themselves, and we can all get on with our lives.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    Anyway, I don't actually disagree that FB needs nerfs.

    I just find the argument put forth by OP to be laughable because:

    a) 1v1 tournaments are no basis to balance 5v5 conquest
    b) Even if they were, he's cherry-picked 2 out of literally dozens of recent tournaments

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    nerf firebrand really hard, it carried scourge as much as scourge was carrying firebrand, in fact, firebrand was keeping scourge alive because it has infinite sustain and it can be really strong offensive-defensive, also nerf guardian burn guard is op.

    Remember trap dragonhunter? how was that not ok but this with firebrand being so oppressive is?

    This stiffens competitive support builds such as scourge heal ele druid spec for ranger even mesmers.

    While we are at it maybe druids can be given something back too to be a competitive support a small QOL buff somewhere to be useful as support in SPVP.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    Both variants of symbol brand(but especially Menders) are really low IQ degenerate gameplay. I hated seeing spammy uninteractive playstyles on condi mirage and I hate seeing it on my own class as well. Core guard was infinitely better in terms of design and promoting overall healthy gameplay but for some reason was unnecessarily nerfed multiple times(sword 2 nerf, agility sigil, lesser smite condition) while symbols were tremendously buffed through the July 16th Zeal changes for some reason.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Symbolic_Power
    should be reduced from 30% back to 10%.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Truth
    should have the blind or weakness removed. For an instant cast, low CD skill with a count, it does way too much.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence is also ridiculous. It's healing effect can stack with multiple symbols, it has a duration increase, and a radius increase. The healing needs to be reduced by 50% or more OR have the stacking effect removed. People seriously underestimate how much healing potential this trait has when paired with healing power.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    That's all true.

    But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.

    This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.

    Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.

    I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The easiest thing to ask yourself is what doesn't FB have access to?

    Stealth.
    Superspeed if you want to nitpick.
    Barrier.

    Edit: I do find it funny that they ban mirage but don't touch a build that literally has almost everything in the game and stomps everything else, then again NA is N/A.

    Evades
    Untargeted teleports
    Dashes
    Boon Removal/Corrupt
    Channeled blocks
    Actionable Invulnerability

    This list is getting quite long isn't it?

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The easiest thing to ask yourself is what doesn't FB have access to?

    Stealth.
    Superspeed if you want to nitpick.
    Barrier.

    Edit: I do find it funny that they ban mirage but don't touch a build that literally has almost everything in the game and stomps everything else, then again NA is N/A.

    Evades
    Untargeted teleports
    Dashes
    Boon Removal/Corrupt
    Channeled blocks
    Actionable Invulnerability

    This list is getting quite long isn't it?

    I said what doesn't FB have access to?

    Evades
    Untargeted teleports - You're nit picking
    Dashes - Teleport is as good but also have a leap on the GS if they want it - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_of_Faith
    Boon Removal/Corrupt
    Channeled blocks - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter
    Actionable Invulnerability - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewed_Focus

    The list is actually quite short

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The easiest thing to ask yourself is what doesn't FB have access to?

    Stealth.
    Superspeed if you want to nitpick.
    Barrier.

    Edit: I do find it funny that they ban mirage but don't touch a build that literally has almost everything in the game and stomps everything else, then again NA is N/A.

    Evades
    Untargeted teleports
    Dashes
    Boon Removal/Corrupt
    Channeled blocks
    Actionable Invulnerability

    This list is getting quite long isn't it?

    I said what doesn't FB have access to?

    Evades
    Untargeted teleports - You're nit picking
    Dashes - Teleport is as good but also have a leap on the GS if they want it - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_of_Faith
    Boon Removal/Corrupt
    Channeled blocks - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter
    Actionable Invulnerability - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewed_Focus

    The list is actually quite short

    Renewed Focus is not "actionable invulnerability". You cannot take actions during it.

    Meta FB uses greatsword and Shelter does it? That's the build everyone's complaining about yeah? This is like putting Revive as a Spellbreaker capability because Warbanner.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    That's all true.

    But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.

    This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.

    Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.

    I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.

    1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    That's all true.

    But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.

    This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.

    Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.

    I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.

    1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.

    Agreed.

    So why are you bringing up its support role in a discussion about 1v1?

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The easiest thing to ask yourself is what doesn't FB have access to?

    Stealth.
    Superspeed if you want to nitpick.
    Barrier.

    Edit: I do find it funny that they ban mirage but don't touch a build that literally has almost everything in the game and stomps everything else, then again NA is N/A.

    Evades
    Untargeted teleports
    Dashes
    Boon Removal/Corrupt
    Channeled blocks
    Actionable Invulnerability

    This list is getting quite long isn't it?

    I said what doesn't FB have access to?

    Evades
    Untargeted teleports - You're nit picking
    Dashes - Teleport is as good but also have a leap on the GS if they want it - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_of_Faith
    Boon Removal/Corrupt
    Channeled blocks - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter
    Actionable Invulnerability - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewed_Focus

    The list is actually quite short

    Renewed Focus is not "actionable invulnerability". You cannot take actions during it.

    Meta FB uses greatsword and Shelter does it? That's the build everyone's complaining about yeah? This is like putting Revive as a Spellbreaker capability because Warbanner.

    Again, I said access to and we're nitpicking at "actionable invulnerability" only mesmer (edit) and ele have "actionable invulnerability". You can easily run shelter if you think it will give more value. GS if you want to run it you can but there's nothing it gives that sword doesn't because teleport is better than a leap and dashes are usually worse than teleports.

    Stealth.
    Barrier.
    Evades on skills.
    Boon Removal/Corrupt.

    Not a long list.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    That's all true.

    But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.

    This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.

    Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.

    I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.

    1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.

    Agreed.

    So why are you bringing up its support role in a discussion about 1v1?

    Both support and the sidenode Firebrand is very strong. It was just a month ago double Firebrand won an MAT. Right now Weaver is the favored side noders both EU and NA but once that build gets nerfed it'll be the sidenode Firebrand that replaces it.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    Just the mantras

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    fb was weak as hell before the symbol dmg buff, all they need to do is revert the symbol buff

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    That's all true.

    But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.

    This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.

    Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.

    I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.

    1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.

    Agreed.

    So why are you bringing up its support role in a discussion about 1v1?

    Both support and the sidenode Firebrand is very strong. It was just a month ago double Firebrand won an MAT. Right now Weaver is the favored side noders both EU and NA but once that build gets nerfed it'll be the sidenode Firebrand that replaces it.

    Double-Thief won the last 2 EU MATs, not sure that means they're OP.

    And I very much doubt FB could replace Weaver as sidenoder. The difference is in how defenses scale. Aegis is great 1v1. It doesn't scale up to 1v2 or 1v3, which is what a sidenoder needs to be able to survive, at least for a short time. A sidenoder needs defences which work regardless of how many people are trying to hit it. Evades, Invulns, Channeled Blocks.

    And I'll say again; I agree FB needs tuning down. But do so on the basis of rational analysis, not on the basis of hyperbole, exaggeration, faulty logic, irrelevant factors, magical 5 weapon builds. Who won what tournament last week is neither here nor there. The trend over the last 6 months is what's important.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Boon Removal

    FB can easily take boon removal sigils though.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    Necromancer players were telling you guys that firebrand was dominant but folks weren't listening when we said that we were being carried later on after nerfs due to needing the sustain before we got deleted in SPVP. Sure scourge was obnoxious with its AOE fields, but firebrand was keeping them alive by protecting their weak area, and now that they are pretty much deleted you see buff spam from firebrand and how ridiculously strong it is.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    That's all true.

    But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.

    This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.

    Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.

    I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.

    1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.

    This is not exactly accurate. Being able to solo contest and take nodes is very useful. But this exact same build has to be able to escape if you get outnumbered. And FB cannot. And thus cannot be played as a side noder. The 1v1 potential does not mean much of you can easily get +1 and downed.

    Also, 1v1 tournaments are a bad examples. And even there FB has not exactly been owning them.

    There is also a mixing between FB dps and support. FB support most definitely needs a nerf, specifically stability uptime. The dps builds not so much. As long as the remove the weakness from mantra of truth, things should be okay.

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    Some slight nerfs are definitely called for, but they aren't as broken as Weaver, Rev and Thief imo. Also 1v1 tournament really isn't very indicative, when you have two tanky builds it will always go to the gas stage, and that has literally nothing to do with normal fights. And even a build that wins a lot of 1v1s without that mechanic can still struggle in actual conquest when it dies too easily in 1vX.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP content

  • FB needs some nerfs

    I don't think (in the current power level of the game) that support firebrand should see any nerfs.
    Nerfing the one viable support class won't magically make other supports see play, people will just move to a high damage - high mobility comp. We've already started to see that with double thieves and double revs.

    The sidenoder variant of FB, both Sage (Virtues) and Mender (Zeal) needs to see some toning down though. Not because they are broken per say, but because it's incredibly unfun and unhealthy to play against them. Removing Weakness from Mantra of Truth will go a long way to making it less of an obnoxious spec, or even moving it some place else.

    Guardian, right now is probably the easiest class to kill. Even more so than Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm Necromancers. They have no scale-able defenses. Aegis doesn't do much of anything right now. It has very limited access to Vigor, basically only Honor (which isn't ran by most damage specs), Longbow 4 on DH and F2 on Firebrand. (I guess Contemplation can convert into Vigor too, but I'm not counting that.) They also have no evade frames or channeled blocks. By far the lowest mobility in the game.

    So all in all, a class that dies very easily to +1's. A class that has no form of disengage, or chase potential. Needs to to able to actually win the fights if the enemies decides to stay. I just wish they made playing them a little bit more active and less brain-afk.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @otto.5684 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    That's all true.

    But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.

    This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.

    Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.

    I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.

    1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.

    This is not exactly accurate. Being able to solo contest and take nodes is very useful. But this exact same build has to be able to escape if you get outnumbered. And FB cannot. And thus cannot be played as a side noder. The 1v1 potential does not mean much of you can easily get +1 and downed.\

    It literally won an MAT as a 1vX side noder back in November.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    Just saying, a 1v1 tournament is more about who played than what was played.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    I don't think (in the current power level of the game) that support firebrand should see any nerfs.
    Nerfing the one viable support class won't magically make other supports see play, people will just move to a high damage - high mobility comp. We've already started to see that with double thieves and double revs.

    The sidenoder variant of FB, both Sage (Virtues) and Mender (Zeal) needs to see some toning down though. Not because they are broken per say, but because it's incredibly unfun and unhealthy to play against them. Removing Weakness from Mantra of Truth will go a long way to making it less of an obnoxious spec, or even moving it some place else.

    Guardian, right now is probably the easiest class to kill. Even more so than Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm Necromancers. They have no scale-able defenses. Aegis doesn't do much of anything right now. It has very limited access to Vigor, basically only Honor (which isn't ran by most damage specs), Longbow 4 on DH and F2 on Firebrand. (I guess Contemplation can convert into Vigor too, but I'm not counting that.) They also have no evade frames or channeled blocks. By far the lowest mobility in the game.

    So all in all, a class that dies very easily to +1's. A class that has no form of disengage, or chase potential. Needs to to able to actually win the fights if the enemies decides to stay. I just wish they made playing them a little bit more active and less brain-afk.

    This is all well and good if you're playing 3 nodes and have 1 FB, if you have 2 FB and essentially only play 2 nodes (obviously rotating the fights between different nodes as you win/lose) then the weaknesses of the current build to being +1 is mitigated in some ways while it's major advantage, which no-one is highlighting, of tomes and baseline support start to shine.

    In a 2v2 the FB build starts to really shine, AoE damage, AoE dazes, AoE support it's got a very overloaded kit with the tomes and some nice kiting will do wonders given the AoE nature. Of course it depends on comps and where you're playing it, ranked, unranked, AT etc. It's still somewhat vulnerable to being 1 shot especially from stealth but a lot of things can be one shot from stealth.

    What I'd like to see from the CMC patch is tomes get a rework as they give way too much even in this state of the game, maybe a little touch to some of the mantras to make them do 1 thing (in line with what I would think CMC is nerfing everyone down to) then see where it is at. The symbols might need a look at in general but maybe after FB is sorted out as the knock on effects of too many can make playing Guardian really bad for those that do play it and it could be symbol guards are in a good spot after.

    Finally they need to figure out the niches for support, Tempest being a good AoE cleanse and sustain healer, FB being a weaker healer but having more important boons and hard damage mitigation through aegis instead, Druid being a high spike healer that can rotate fast into and out of fights to sustain then leave to the next group. We'll have to see what the power level CMC sets is and where ANet tell him to take it when we inevitably get the 100s of posts complaining the game is too slow and I can't kill anything because I'm used to spamming.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Just saying, a 1v1 tournament is more about who played than what was played.

    didnt you watch prot holo vs rev? crits for 200-300 xd

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I’ve watched two 1 vs 1 finals in NA & EU recently and both were won by Firebrands.
    There is something odd about this class that I can’t put a finger on.
    It looks very balanced but thrashes almost every other class in a 1 on 1.
    And yet there seems to be very few complains against them.
    What are your thoughts on this enigmatic class?

    Why should we care about 1v1 dueling balance? Should the fate of classes hinge upon what the outcome of random duels were? And where does that leave a class for team based play if we change things based on performance in duels? Should we change the entire game and professions for duels? What is this balance obsession when it come to duels?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    I think the question is that its interesting and showing of gw2 balancing when a class designed for support has also top 1v1 potential, which I think is in part due to the damage powercreep that has also been implemented on specs with insane sustain potential lol.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I think the question is that its interesting and showing of gw2 balancing when a class designed for support has also top 1v1 potential, which I think is in part due to the damage powercreep that has also been implemented on specs with insane sustain potential lol.

    And what is the inherent problem with a strong support capable spec? Should it be all damage specs be given favor in all fight scenarios? And you don’t think that perhaps the human behind the controls of a spec has anything to do with it?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I think the question is that its interesting and showing of gw2 balancing when a class designed for support has also top 1v1 potential, which I think is in part due to the damage powercreep that has also been implemented on specs with insane sustain potential lol.

    And what is the inherent problem with a strong support capable spec? Should it be all damage specs be given favor in all fight scenarios? And you don’t think that perhaps the human behind the controls of a spec has anything to do with it?

    No I'm saying a class that has insane sustainability/support potential should out put power or condi bursts that match the classes that have less inherent sustain. Do u think that having a support high sustain class that out puts damage like that of a damage dealing non support spec is ok?
    Sounds balanced to me lol. If a fb outplayed and out heals its opponent and whittled them down than that's fine but a firebrand shouldn't be a tank and dps spec all in one all while booming up their team imo.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I think the question is that its interesting and showing of gw2 balancing when a class designed for support has also top 1v1 potential, which I think is in part due to the damage powercreep that has also been implemented on specs with insane sustain potential lol.

    And what is the inherent problem with a strong support capable spec? Should it be all damage specs be given favor in all fight scenarios? And you don’t think that perhaps the human behind the controls of a spec has anything to do with it?

    No I'm saying a class that has insane sustainability/support potential should out put power or condi bursts that match the classes that have less inherent sustain. Do u think that having a support high sustain class that out puts damage like that of a damage dealing non support spec is ok?
    Sounds balanced to me lol. If a fb outplayed and out heals its opponent and whittled them down than that's fine but a firebrand shouldn't be a tank and dps spec all in one all while booming up their team imo.

    There are tradeoffs when using gear in gw2, and the profession system was designed for players to make builds a bit more versatile. But if we want to follow your train of thought, perhaps we should limit the type of gear a player can use and what skills they are allowed to take? So no damage specs should be allowed to wear gear with toughness, vitality and healing... Some specs cant use gear with power, precision or ferocity... Maybe lock out all other slot skills except those given to an e-spec...

    Should we ask the devs to make classes and builds like this? Damage builds win most fights. Tank builds win 50/50 against Damage builds. Support builds always lose to both Damage and Tank builds? Or should we just eliminate all tank and support builds and gears from the game, so we go back to the good old days of Damage Wars 2?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    The biggest problem with FB imo, is honestly just that the graphics overlap so hard with pixel spam, and the animations ALL look the same concerning slight & tiny 1 hand weapon movements, which are covered by pixel spam. It creates an effect where you pretty much can't read what the Firebrand is doing at all. The best you can do is understand how they run the builds and try to interpret which cycles the FB is attempting to use at the time.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    I think they’ve done a good job so far nerfing FB and that exactly why it still is over tuned. Still 100% dominant as a support and if that’s not enough power/burn fbs are still one of the best ranked carry builds in the game.

  • FB needs some nerfs

    A profession that greatly influences the Meta, something must definitely be reviewed.

  • Ragnarox.9601Ragnarox.9601 Member ✭✭✭
    FB does not need nerfs

    LoL firebrand nerfs. You should try it before judging.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire

    I mean..... demonstrably false.

    To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.

    In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.

    Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019

    Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.

    My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.

    That's all true.

    But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.

    This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.

    Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.

    I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.

    1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.

    This is not exactly accurate. Being able to solo contest and take nodes is very useful. But this exact same build has to be able to escape if you get outnumbered. And FB cannot. And thus cannot be played as a side noder. The 1v1 potential does not mean much of you can easily get +1 and downed.\

    It literally won an MAT as a 1vX side noder back in November.

    Ya, but that does not mean much. It is not enough statistical info. On average, it does not fill this role. Even if a team manged to do that and win, that does not mean that how it works, or even that it is the ideal setup.

    This is no different that taking the highest performing player in ranked and saying whatever build they use is the best build in the current meta.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭

    Where can I join this 1vs1 tournaments?

  • Rettan.9603Rettan.9603 Member ✭✭✭
    Others

    I think they need a rework more then just nerfs.
    Make it less spammy.
    Separate between high boon output or high healing output. But not both at the same time.
    Something like that.
    The idea of @Ovark.2514 could go in the right direction.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020
    Others

    Imo the issue is classwide, to much boons gameplay doesn’t feel natural

    To much of everything actually tuned for overperformance.

    Tdlr.. spam mechanics are the issue.

  • Rix.8510Rix.8510 Member ✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    FB is not really "enigmatic" The class has always been overperforming and currently, With the shakes that we've had in the meta game, They are able to go Mender's or Sage's with the Zeal traitline for high DPS. No matter how you look at it be it a team fight,1v1,cleave,support. FB is absurdly oppresive on everything it does.

  • Aran.9374Aran.9374 Member ✭✭
    FB does not need nerfs

    No. Firebrand does not need to be nerfed. That's all.

  • FB does not need nerfs

    So I don't post too often but I'll try my best to be as unbiased as possible seeing as how I main Guardian.

    Let me just state one thing about Guardian that I will back-up to the best of my ability. It has ZERO kitten mechanics attached to it. Meaning: no instant (short cd) invulns, durational blocks (outside of the kitten heal no one uses), stealth, evasion on skills or instant abilities that decimate your health. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

    I'm all for nerfs where needed, even on my own main if someone can back up what and why it should be nerfed. There's also a plethora of crappy traits/weapon skills and utilities. Hell, I can easily make just as many things that should be buffed but then this thread would explode.

    I get that fb is the main support but look at what it has, it's all active play. Name one strong passive it has going for it, you won't find it. Forgive me for ending this post on a negative note.

    -Arken

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    It isn't a problem with FB itself, but the core gameplay of GW2. In this game a build is either really good or really bad. There is nothing in between really. To nerf FB they would probably have to nerf many things which would in turn make them very bad. Then no one would play them. What should happen (but won't). Is that they should introduce more counter play to FB playstyle.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020
    FB does not need nerfs

    Like I said, if someone can muster a compelling argument to what specifically needs to be nerfed and why, I'd listen. One of the more common complaints I hear are symbols to which, I despise this mechanic. The fact that EVERY weapon has a symbol attached to it is rather annoying. It's a static/unfun mechanic in a dynamically mobile game. If it were me, I'd redo the whole symbol thing into something completely different.

    Edit to the post above: There's plenty of counter play. Boonstrip/corruption, focus-fire, kiting. As stated above in some earlier posts and my own, FB has little-to-no chase or escapeability, no duration blocks, no stealth, no evasion on skills. It's sustain is 99% active play(1% being virtue of resolve).