Weaver and Firebrand are problems — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Weaver and Firebrand are problems

Chop sustain or damage for weaver. Chop self support, control, or damage for firebrand. Weaver has endless evades and does tons of quickly applied damage, sounds like a condi thief. Firebrand can carry themselves through outnumbered situations, and even if specs for sides, dueling they can still provide better support than the other options. I see 3-4 weavers in most of my games. No one is not playing guardian, but firebrands are the most prevalent. A game without and ele or a guard x 2 across teams does not exist in today's pvp. Pistol whip thief is super prevalent in thief, but these are just as frequently in games and come with the same damage output and sustain. Weavers are quite mobile too.

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Comments

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That aside, your comment is untrue.
    I see plenty of games without an Elementalist (of any kind) on either side.
    Even not counting myself (as I play Core guardian) I see more Core and Dragon Hunters than I see Firebrands.
    And when I see Firebrands that aren't fully built for sustain, they quickly lose in 1vs2.

  • @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Theres always a problem. Wasn't it just holo and scourge. Next batch of nerfs the players will find the current op class. The problem is more a lot of players see that op class and swap to it everytime then it's all you see we cry for nerf it gets nerfed new problem rises everyone rolls that endless loop.

    They need to stop handing out buffs when the hammer. No compensation is necessary.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.
    And tbh ....who really cares what the kind of "type" the damage is.
    If you get hit for 10k powerdamage within 3 seconds or 10k condition damage over the same timespan....does it really matter?
    Sure, there is a dedicated stat that lowers powerdamage....but condition damage can be removed retrospectively after being hit by it. Its all the same really.

    But don't get me wrong, I'm all for reducing damage IN GENERAL.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.
    And tbh ....who really cares what the kind of "type" the damage is.
    If you get hit for 10k powerdamage within 3 seconds or 10k condition damage over the same timespan....does it really matter?
    Sure, there is a dedicated stat that lowers powerdamage....but condition damage can be removed retrospectively after being hit by it. Its all the same really.

    But don't get me wrong, I'm all for reducing damage IN GENERAL.

    If all types of damage burst, why not make all damage be power?
    If the game has two types of damage, they should effectively be different.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.
    And tbh ....who really cares what the kind of "type" the damage is.
    If you get hit for 10k powerdamage within 3 seconds or 10k condition damage over the same timespan....does it really matter?
    Sure, there is a dedicated stat that lowers powerdamage....but condition damage can be removed retrospectively after being hit by it. Its all the same really.

    But don't get me wrong, I'm all for reducing damage IN GENERAL.

    If all types of damage burst, why not make all damage be power?
    If the game has two types of damage, they should effectively be different.

    becouse clown build like prot holo exist that get hit for 400 with crits.
    and knowing how to cleanse is also aditional skill that people lack.
    also build diversity, kitten warrior gets steamrolled by condi mes, good warrior switches build and perma stalls 1v1.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.
    And tbh ....who really cares what the kind of "type" the damage is.
    If you get hit for 10k powerdamage within 3 seconds or 10k condition damage over the same timespan....does it really matter?
    Sure, there is a dedicated stat that lowers powerdamage....but condition damage can be removed retrospectively after being hit by it. Its all the same really.

    But don't get me wrong, I'm all for reducing damage IN GENERAL.

    If all types of damage burst, why not make all damage be power?
    If the game has two types of damage, they should effectively be different.

    Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

    Do you really think a system where condition damage gets punished for playing better and landing more attack is going to be better than what we have?

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm game for condi damage changes if anet reels in its weird views about how spvp amulets should be stat'd. Make condis even more damage-over-time (no, condi does not burst like power does, by 'burst' you mean getting loaded down with condis and having no cleanses so you die in a couple seconds) but in exchange give 'em the tools they need to survive longer so the condis can actually tick.

    It's kind of odd that condi is supposed to be the attrition damage type but pretty much every single condi amulet is some combination of power damage stats, vitality (or toughness, but never both), and condi damage.

    Imagine if half the stat allocation on every single power amulet was condition damage that barely did anything at all for your build.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @lightstalker.1498 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Theres always a problem. Wasn't it just holo and scourge. Next batch of nerfs the players will find the current op class. The problem is more a lot of players see that op class and swap to it everytime then it's all you see we cry for nerf it gets nerfed new problem rises everyone rolls that endless loop.

    They need to stop handing out buffs when the hammer. No compensation is necessary.

    That really depends, and i don't think its necessarily true always.

    When you nerf chronomancer for instance there could be unintended side effects and need to buff them elsewhere to be effective.

    The nerfs to chronomancer are massive hitting multiple stuff across from core to chronomancer itself. Things like how you deal damage is affected, which is why Anet rushed to fix stuff. When chronomancer got hit, I don't remember if anything got changed after that, because the effects of creating phantoms was decreased, which is definitely noticeable in PvE, changes in pvp is a whole different story as it functions differently, so that is why i disagree. You could end up with a spec where its survivability is gutted and it gets overdone sometimes compensation makes sense.

    It makes sense for no compensation when a class severely over-performs and the nerfs are needed

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    I'm game for condi damage changes if anet reels in its weird views about how spvp amulets should be stat'd. Make condis even more damage-over-time (no, condi does not burst like power does, by 'burst' you mean getting loaded down with condis and having no cleanses so you die in a couple seconds) but in exchange give 'em the tools they need to survive longer so the condis can actually tick.

    It's kind of odd that condi is supposed to be the attrition damage type but pretty much every single condi amulet is some combination of power damage stats, vitality (or toughness, but never both), and condi damage.

    Imagine if half the stat allocation on every single power amulet was condition damage that barely did anything at all for your build.

    1k condi, 1k expertise, 500 toughtness 500 vitality/healing would be really nice.
    I can see condi mirage still going for crit due to sharper immages, but it could make a big deal for other offmeta condi builds out there that never get picked.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Chop sustain or damage for weaver. Chop self support, control, or damage for firebrand. Weaver has endless evades and does tons of quickly applied damage, sounds like a condi thief. Firebrand can carry themselves through outnumbered situations, and even if specs for sides, dueling they can still provide better support than the other options. I see 3-4 weavers in most of my games. No one is not playing guardian, but firebrands are the most prevalent. A game without and ele or a guard x 2 across teams does not exist in today's pvp. Pistol whip thief is super prevalent in thief, but these are just as frequently in games and come with the same damage output and sustain. Weavers are quite mobile too.

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved. Classes are generally balance, but there are root issues that everyone lets fade out into obscurity because that is part of their strength. Unfortunately it is also part of their enemy's strength. So, hit the enemy in general and their skills and traits versus what really needs to happen. Notice how boon spam, boon application, and boon sharing dont hang around on the first page for long. Neither do class roles and identity justifications. This forum has always been, but got even worse now, a place for rock paper scissor nerf wars. You must realise that it is a circle, and if your cries succeed, you will get the same treatment shortly. Your excuses as to why a class shouldn't be able to do this, and the logic and reasoning you use to fortify that argument, can be flipped and used on you just as easily. For example if you are very mobile, you should not be a duelist. On the flip, if you are support, you should not be a duelist. If you tank, you should not be a duelist. Doesn't make sense unless it doesn't apply to you, but applies to your enemy. The REAL problems are simply extreme boons powercreeping, and a lack of a real hard line defining class identity. People are stuck in this limbo of trying to be who they want and the original vision. Classes should not be able to excel at everything if every class can not excel at everything. Define who is meant for what in conquest, make it so, and ignore the cries elsewise. People will join their hard counters and playing against that and failing can only be blamed on one at that point. But since we are here can you nerf them and buff me?

    Ha the irony....

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    I've said it before and I'll say it again; It isn't any one or two particular classes that are problems. Every class is a problem in some way, shape or form.

    If you're worried that Weaver or Firebrand or whatever else is going to be "left out" of the big incoming balance patch I am pretty doubtful that will be the case. These threads specifically targeting specific classes are far too abundant right now and I've said it before but it legitimately just looks like people trying to get a word in for the devs to see and trying and "convince" them to take sharper aim at and a much heavier handed hammer to these classes for not much more reason other than previous bad experiences with them.

    I'm not saying Firebrand or Weaver, or anything else for that matter, don't have problems, or even that they don't have bigger problems than some other builds but for real people gotta dial it back. If you're going to target one or two classes and their issues then at the very least give everything else the same treatment and target their issues as well.

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Chop sustain or damage for weaver. Chop self support, control, or damage for firebrand. Weaver has endless evades and does tons of quickly applied damage, sounds like a condi thief. Firebrand can carry themselves through outnumbered situations, and even if specs for sides, dueling they can still provide better support than the other options. I see 3-4 weavers in most of my games. No one is not playing guardian, but firebrands are the most prevalent. A game without and ele or a guard x 2 across teams does not exist in today's pvp. Pistol whip thief is super prevalent in thief, but these are just as frequently in games and come with the same damage output and sustain. Weavers are quite mobile too.

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved. Classes are generally balance, but there are root issues that everyone lets fade out into obscurity because that is part of their strength. Unfortunately it is also part of their enemy's strength. So, hit the enemy in general and their skills and traits versus what really needs to happen. Notice how boon spam, boon application, and boon sharing dont hang around on the first page for long. Neither do class roles and identity justifications. This forum has always been, but got even worse now, a place for rock paper scissor nerf wars. You must realise that it is a circle, and if your cries succeed, you will get the same treatment shortly. Your excuses as to why a class shouldn't be able to do this, and the logic and reasoning you use to fortify that argument, can be flipped and used on you just as easily. For example if you are very mobile, you should not be a duelist. On the flip, if you are support, you should not be a duelist. If you tank, you should not be a duelist. Doesn't make sense unless it doesn't apply to you, but applies to your enemy. The REAL problems are simply extreme boons powercreeping, and a lack of a real hard line defining class identity. People are stuck in this limbo of trying to be who they want and the original vision. Classes should not be able to excel at everything if every class can not excel at everything. Define who is meant for what in conquest, make it so, and ignore the cries elsewise. People will join their hard counters and playing against that and failing can only be blamed on one at that point. But since we are here can you nerf them and buff me?

    Ha the irony....

    Everyone includes me, otherwise I would say everyone else. Irony would be if I was saying I don't do that, and here I am. Jeez.... I feel like the only thing people read nowadays is video game scrolling text.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lightstalker.1498
    they read, fail to comprehend and begin to assume. Its very typical, might as well get used to it. its never going to stop.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    I'm game for condi damage changes if anet reels in its weird views about how spvp amulets should be stat'd. Make condis even more damage-over-time (no, condi does not burst like power does, by 'burst' you mean getting loaded down with condis and having no cleanses so you die in a couple seconds) but in exchange give 'em the tools they need to survive longer so the condis can actually tick.

    It's kind of odd that condi is supposed to be the attrition damage type but pretty much every single condi amulet is some combination of power damage stats, vitality (or toughness, but never both), and condi damage.

    Imagine if half the stat allocation on every single power amulet was condition damage that barely did anything at all for your build.

    1k condi, 1k expertise, 500 toughtness 500 vitality/healing would be really nice.
    I can see condi mirage still going for crit due to sharper immages, but it could make a big deal for other offmeta condi builds out there that never get picked.

    I am hoping for something that attaches a 'weight' to stats, and then lets the player just make an amulet w/whatever they want up to a certain weight.

    Also yeah, that was def my thinking. It might shake up the meta a bit, but it would really go a long way towards helping non-meta builds - specifically, those condi builds that don't have quite the durability of the meta ones but are forced to take offensive stats anyway.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lightstalker.1498 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Chop sustain or damage for weaver. Chop self support, control, or damage for firebrand. Weaver has endless evades and does tons of quickly applied damage, sounds like a condi thief. Firebrand can carry themselves through outnumbered situations, and even if specs for sides, dueling they can still provide better support than the other options. I see 3-4 weavers in most of my games. No one is not playing guardian, but firebrands are the most prevalent. A game without and ele or a guard x 2 across teams does not exist in today's pvp. Pistol whip thief is super prevalent in thief, but these are just as frequently in games and come with the same damage output and sustain. Weavers are quite mobile too.

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved. Classes are generally balance, but there are root issues that everyone lets fade out into obscurity because that is part of their strength. Unfortunately it is also part of their enemy's strength. So, hit the enemy in general and their skills and traits versus what really needs to happen. Notice how boon spam, boon application, and boon sharing dont hang around on the first page for long. Neither do class roles and identity justifications. This forum has always been, but got even worse now, a place for rock paper scissor nerf wars. You must realise that it is a circle, and if your cries succeed, you will get the same treatment shortly. Your excuses as to why a class shouldn't be able to do this, and the logic and reasoning you use to fortify that argument, can be flipped and used on you just as easily. For example if you are very mobile, you should not be a duelist. On the flip, if you are support, you should not be a duelist. If you tank, you should not be a duelist. Doesn't make sense unless it doesn't apply to you, but applies to your enemy. The REAL problems are simply extreme boons powercreeping, and a lack of a real hard line defining class identity. People are stuck in this limbo of trying to be who they want and the original vision. Classes should not be able to excel at everything if every class can not excel at everything. Define who is meant for what in conquest, make it so, and ignore the cries elsewise. People will join their hard counters and playing against that and failing can only be blamed on one at that point. But since we are here can you nerf them and buff me?

    Ha the irony....

    Everyone includes me, otherwise I would say everyone else. Irony would be if I was saying I don't do that, and here I am. Jeez.... I feel like the only thing people read nowadays is video game scrolling text.

    Deep Down you know that the rest of the ele kit cannot compete with the rest of the game in terms of dmg and sustain, core ele get outshined by basically everything..even core engi and if not a core ele would struggle to defeat a core engi at equal level. All the nerf cries are towards weaver, which anet has powercrept to keep ele relevant in the game...and ele being relevant is not something this community wants as you really well put it.

    But do not fret, anet will surely nerf weaver and with it ..the rest of your powercrepts specs, for years all of you have enjoyed powercrept builds confusing the change with an increase in your own skill level.

    I guess that anet has decided to nerf all of you down to core ele level rather than buff ele to your powercrept level, ofc once everything get nerfed considerably there would be no reason to keep weaver as it is now.

    So...what the kitten point of your thread? Once your powercrept class get nerfed in a month...there won't be need to keep weaver as it now and it will be nerfed accordingly...are you maybe asking to keep your powercrept spec and nerf weaver?....lol sorry buddy

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • lightstalker.1498lightstalker.1498 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @lightstalker.1498 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Chop sustain or damage for weaver. Chop self support, control, or damage for firebrand. Weaver has endless evades and does tons of quickly applied damage, sounds like a condi thief. Firebrand can carry themselves through outnumbered situations, and even if specs for sides, dueling they can still provide better support than the other options. I see 3-4 weavers in most of my games. No one is not playing guardian, but firebrands are the most prevalent. A game without and ele or a guard x 2 across teams does not exist in today's pvp. Pistol whip thief is super prevalent in thief, but these are just as frequently in games and come with the same damage output and sustain. Weavers are quite mobile too.

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved. Classes are generally balance, but there are root issues that everyone lets fade out into obscurity because that is part of their strength. Unfortunately it is also part of their enemy's strength. So, hit the enemy in general and their skills and traits versus what really needs to happen. Notice how boon spam, boon application, and boon sharing dont hang around on the first page for long. Neither do class roles and identity justifications. This forum has always been, but got even worse now, a place for rock paper scissor nerf wars. You must realise that it is a circle, and if your cries succeed, you will get the same treatment shortly. Your excuses as to why a class shouldn't be able to do this, and the logic and reasoning you use to fortify that argument, can be flipped and used on you just as easily. For example if you are very mobile, you should not be a duelist. On the flip, if you are support, you should not be a duelist. If you tank, you should not be a duelist. Doesn't make sense unless it doesn't apply to you, but applies to your enemy. The REAL problems are simply extreme boons powercreeping, and a lack of a real hard line defining class identity. People are stuck in this limbo of trying to be who they want and the original vision. Classes should not be able to excel at everything if every class can not excel at everything. Define who is meant for what in conquest, make it so, and ignore the cries elsewise. People will join their hard counters and playing against that and failing can only be blamed on one at that point. But since we are here can you nerf them and buff me?

    Ha the irony....

    Everyone includes me, otherwise I would say everyone else. Irony would be if I was saying I don't do that, and here I am. Jeez.... I feel like the only thing people read nowadays is video game scrolling text.

    Deep Down you know that the rest of the ele kit cannot compete with the rest of the game in terms of dmg and sustain, core ele get outshined by basically everything..even core engi and if not a core ele would struggle to defeat a core engi at equal level. All the nerf cries are towards weaver, which anet has powercrept to keep ele relevant in the game...and ele being relevant is not something this community wants as you really well put it.

    But do not fret, anet will surely nerf weaver and with it ..the rest of your powercrepts specs, for years all of you have enjoyed powercrept builds confusing the change with an increase in your own skill level.

    I guess that anet has decided to nerf all of you down to core ele level rather than buff ele to your powercrept level, ofc once everything get nerfed considerably there would be no reason to keep weaver as it is now.

    So...what the kitten point of your thread? Once your powercrept class get nerfed in a month...there won't be need to keep weaver as it now and it will be nerfed accordingly...are you maybe asking to keep your powercrept spec and nerf weaver?....lol sorry buddy

    What is my spec? The point of the thread is these two classes are not to be overlooked or fly under the radar. NERF EVERYONE.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.

    So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    What exactly is 'condi burst' anyway. How long do people expect it to take for condis to stack up? How long do they expect to live afterward? At what point do they exect to lose to a condi build?

    I keep seeing people throw 'condi burst' around and for whatever reason it seems to always pan out to be just 'this condition build has a skill that hits for more damage than their auto attack and they hit me with it'.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    What exactly is 'condi burst' anyway. How long do people expect it to take for condis to stack up? How long do they expect to live afterward? At what point do they exect to lose to a condi build?

    I keep seeing people throw 'condi burst' around and for whatever reason it seems to always pan out to be just 'this condition build has a skill that hits for more damage than their auto attack and they hit me with it'.

    Take the autoattack of the necro dagger and you have dealt more damage than the whole weapon is capable of.

    Such comparisons lead to nothing. The condi damage mechanic is different than the power damage mechanic and so needs different damage tweakings. All in all direct damage has to be applied a lot faster than condi damage to be competitive. They only exception would be a condi player playing a glass build with only two dodges. But that would be pretty stupid outside of pve.

  • @Curennos.9307 said:
    What exactly is 'condi burst' anyway. How long do people expect it to take for condis to stack up? How long do they expect to live afterward? At what point do they exect to lose to a condi build?

    I keep seeing people throw 'condi burst' around and for whatever reason it seems to always pan out to be just 'this condition build has a skill that hits for more damage than their auto attack and they hit me with it'.

    Much like how a Power based burst build is designed to dish out the most amount of damage in the shortest amount of hits, ensuring the maximum amount of damage, a Condition based burst build is designed to apply the maximum amount of stacks of one or more conditions (short or long duration) in the shortest amount of time. Allowing them to deal a large amount of damage in a very short time frame. This lets them essentially passively burst a target down after the initial application. These builds also usually take advantage of how the condition cleansing system works, and tend to apply some sort of "cover" conditions to prevent the actual damage conditions from being cleansed. While it's not as immediate as a Power burst build, if you can't cleanse the large stack of damaging conditions (They usually focus on one or two, such as Burning, or Bleeding/Poison) you, depending on your health pool, basically get to sit there and watch yourself die within roughly 3-5 seconds? Give or take.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lightstalker.1498 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @lightstalker.1498 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Chop sustain or damage for weaver. Chop self support, control, or damage for firebrand. Weaver has endless evades and does tons of quickly applied damage, sounds like a condi thief. Firebrand can carry themselves through outnumbered situations, and even if specs for sides, dueling they can still provide better support than the other options. I see 3-4 weavers in most of my games. No one is not playing guardian, but firebrands are the most prevalent. A game without and ele or a guard x 2 across teams does not exist in today's pvp. Pistol whip thief is super prevalent in thief, but these are just as frequently in games and come with the same damage output and sustain. Weavers are quite mobile too.

    @lightstalker.1498 said:
    Deep down. It is not really even deep down. Everyone is on here trying to get nerfs for their counters and buffs for their beloved. Classes are generally balance, but there are root issues that everyone lets fade out into obscurity because that is part of their strength. Unfortunately it is also part of their enemy's strength. So, hit the enemy in general and their skills and traits versus what really needs to happen. Notice how boon spam, boon application, and boon sharing dont hang around on the first page for long. Neither do class roles and identity justifications. This forum has always been, but got even worse now, a place for rock paper scissor nerf wars. You must realise that it is a circle, and if your cries succeed, you will get the same treatment shortly. Your excuses as to why a class shouldn't be able to do this, and the logic and reasoning you use to fortify that argument, can be flipped and used on you just as easily. For example if you are very mobile, you should not be a duelist. On the flip, if you are support, you should not be a duelist. If you tank, you should not be a duelist. Doesn't make sense unless it doesn't apply to you, but applies to your enemy. The REAL problems are simply extreme boons powercreeping, and a lack of a real hard line defining class identity. People are stuck in this limbo of trying to be who they want and the original vision. Classes should not be able to excel at everything if every class can not excel at everything. Define who is meant for what in conquest, make it so, and ignore the cries elsewise. People will join their hard counters and playing against that and failing can only be blamed on one at that point. But since we are here can you nerf them and buff me?

    Ha the irony....

    Everyone includes me, otherwise I would say everyone else. Irony would be if I was saying I don't do that, and here I am. Jeez.... I feel like the only thing people read nowadays is video game scrolling text.

    Deep Down you know that the rest of the ele kit cannot compete with the rest of the game in terms of dmg and sustain, core ele get outshined by basically everything..even core engi and if not a core ele would struggle to defeat a core engi at equal level. All the nerf cries are towards weaver, which anet has powercrept to keep ele relevant in the game...and ele being relevant is not something this community wants as you really well put it.

    But do not fret, anet will surely nerf weaver and with it ..the rest of your powercrepts specs, for years all of you have enjoyed powercrept builds confusing the change with an increase in your own skill level.

    I guess that anet has decided to nerf all of you down to core ele level rather than buff ele to your powercrept level, ofc once everything get nerfed considerably there would be no reason to keep weaver as it is now.

    So...what the kitten point of your thread? Once your powercrept class get nerfed in a month...there won't be need to keep weaver as it now and it will be nerfed accordingly...are you maybe asking to keep your powercrept spec and nerf weaver?....lol sorry buddy

    What is my spec? The point of the thread is these two classes are not to be overlooked or fly under the radar. NERF EVERYONE.

    Don't worry...ele is never overlooked, they allow it to shine for few months between a dead period and another, after 4 years of tempest misery they decided to give ele players some decent spec...that will be nerfed soon anyway and ele will go back being a pointless class to have in game...all in line with your original thread about nobody really wanting balance.

    There is a reason anyway I play on 3 different mains, I can play on ele only for few months every few years it seems, the class is badly designed that it can only compete with the rest if given simiar tools in terms of sustain and dmg...but the idea never really work.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • I hate those Firebrand! Using their skills and condis... How dare!!!
    Necro is OK by the way...

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    I hate those Firebrand! Using their skills and condis... How dare!!!
    Necro is OK by the way...

    Reaper is probably one of the easiest classes to know when you are about to take a lot of damage.

    Don't tank shroud. 4s of not avoiding anything, like the chain of attacks you took in your screenshots, will get you killed.

    Anyways it's not a Reaper specific issue. 4s of not mitigating damage from most classes will result in similar or higher damage, especially when it's their strongest skills. It's where the game is right now and why everything is about to be toned down. All damage is too high.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.
    So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

    Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

    There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

    Just like mortrialus said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

    Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    I hate those Firebrand! Using their skills and condis... How dare!!!
    Necro is OK by the way...

    Reaper is probably one of the easiest classes to know when you are about to take a lot of damage.

    Don't tank shroud. 4s of not avoiding anything, like the chain of attacks you took in your screenshots, will get you killed.

    Anyways it's not a Reaper specific issue. 4s of not mitigating damage from most classes will result in similar or higher damage, especially when it's their strongest skills. It's where the game is right now and why everything is about to be toned down. All damage is too high.

    I am "suspended" for accusing people so I can't say names or how much they are, look at the lenght of the squares and than imagine how much red symbols and arrows and circles (wont talk about mirages) around me. Anet just need to slow down this game.
    Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

  • @Kaburro.4712 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    I hate those Firebrand! Using their skills and condis... How dare!!!
    Necro is OK by the way...

    Reaper is probably one of the easiest classes to know when you are about to take a lot of damage.

    Don't tank shroud. 4s of not avoiding anything, like the chain of attacks you took in your screenshots, will get you killed.

    Anyways it's not a Reaper specific issue. 4s of not mitigating damage from most classes will result in similar or higher damage, especially when it's their strongest skills. It's where the game is right now and why everything is about to be toned down. All damage is too high.

    I am "suspended" for accusing people so I can't say names or how much they are, look at the lenght of the squares and than imagine how much red symbols and arrows and circles (wont talk about mirages) around me. Anet just need to slow down this game.
    Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

    And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

    The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

    Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

  • Kaburro.4712Kaburro.4712 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

    The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

    Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

    Tell me the truth. You are playing GW2 (pvp) for less than a year.
    I get your point, you are right. But problem here is that berserker used to be a rare thing now is standard.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaburro.4712 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

    The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

    Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

    Tell me the truth. You are playing GW2 (pvp) for less than a year.

    I've been playing for far,far longer. Seriously the game has taken a shift to damage avoidance ,mobility, and potentially excessive healing/re-sustain being the main ways of not dying with the expansions because damage is so high. Before being stunned for 2s and not breaking it didn't mean you just died where as now if you don't break that stun you likely will or will be so pressured you have to play defensively.

    Toughness and Vit only help so much but have been increasingly and now almost entirely overshadowed by evade/block/invuln. Even healing. Everything has been crept up so much they had to remove stat combinations from PvP so as to not break some new overloaded builds.

    I don't see why you are attempting to belittle and attack me while simultaneously agreeing with the point that everything has been turned up to 100 and needs to be dialled down.

  • Kaburro.4712Kaburro.4712 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kaburro.4712 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

    The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

    Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

    Tell me the truth. You are playing GW2 (pvp) for less than a year.

    I've been playing for far,far longer. Seriously the game has taken a shift to damage avoidance ,mobility, and potentially excessive healing/re-sustain being the main ways of not dying with the expansions because damage is so high. Before being stunned for 2s and not breaking it didn't mean you just died where as now if you don't break that stun you likely will or will be so pressured you have to play defensively.

    Toughness and Vit only help so much but have been increasingly and now almost entirely overshadowed by evade/block/invuln. Even healing. Everything has been crept up so much they had to remove stat combinations from PvP so as to not break some new overloaded builds.

    I don't see why you are attempting to belittle and attack me while simultaneously agreeing with the point that everything has been turned up to 100 and needs to be dialled down.

    Sorry I was a "little" aggravated and understood you wrong the first time. My apologies, english is not my main language so sometimes I get things wrong before reading 3x XD But.... nevertheless... what you said (agree)!

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.
    So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

    Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

    There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

    Just like mortrialus said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

    Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

    While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.

    Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.

    (I am ok with how mesmer currently is,this is for reference) For example you can evade a mesmer (the old build), pistol 4 and 5. You are safe right? You are not. It's clones will passively tick your hp and you will have to leave over time. Is there smart play involved? You dodged his skills right?

    An ele will evade, invur while lava skin . Ok you moved away from it. Now it's your time to burst. Nope, there are several other skills it can casl, stance, flame uprising etc. You dodge those too. You dodged those too. Time to burst. Oh wait it's now in water attunement. Heal heal healed evade, earth stance. Now it's back to fire and again you can't stand next to it.

    I d go through FB but I don't think I should have to. The point is. You can dodge it's major burst and not die. But it's passive states such as symbols, flame auras etc etc. Will still get you no matter what you do. And over time you have to leave.

    Your window to kill is extremely small and you have to hit excatly on point to kill it. But does he need to do that to you? No. No they don't.

    If it is excatly as you say. A you hit me you do same dmg whether condi or physical. Sure thing. But in reality it is not. It's you miss your attack but u can still hit me with small ones just by being next to me. That's ridiculous.

    They need to nerf ele and fb's ability to passively kill you while retaining it's burst. Or give it no burst but passive ability to kill you. It can't both kill you with burst while also doing passive damage by just being next to you. Unless you also give power the passive ability to cast symbols, clones, auras that can damage you.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

    The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

    Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

    This is why necros complain huh necros were being told all this time L2P when they were saying this, funny.

    In fact, months ago the debate was that toughness doesn't really help us much with carapace because of power creep of dmg modifiers might spam and mobility.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    someone should lose. Take it as rule.
    Aslo I still see small amount of weavers on pvp. If it will be realy true we will see 5 vs 5 weavers in each match.
    But now sometime I see 0 (zero) weavers in match.

  • @lare.5129 said:
    someone should lose. Take it as rule.
    Aslo I still see small amount of weavers on pvp. If it will be realy true we will see 5 vs 5 weavers in each match.
    But now sometime I see 0 (zero) weavers in match.

    That's because all the weavers are in plat.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    someone should lose. Take it as rule.
    Aslo I still see small amount of weavers on pvp. If it will be realy true we will see 5 vs 5 weavers in each match.
    But now sometime I see 0 (zero) weavers in match.

    That's because all the weavers are in plat.

    It feels like there are plat players in every match though.

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭

    A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

    and good everything else deletes the reaper, thats the pickle

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

    and good everything else deletes the reaper, thats the pickle

    Yep but that’s what people forget it’s a 5 man team u are ment to play as it to win :)

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gamble.4580 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

    and good everything else deletes the reaper, thats the pickle

    Yep but that’s what people forget it’s a 5 man team u are ment to play as it to win :)

    Even the best reaper can only run around trying to survive hoping their teammates are good and killing stuff fast or it becomes free food at the first sight of enemy.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

    and good everything else deletes the reaper, thats the pickle

    Yep but that’s what people forget it’s a 5 man team u are ment to play as it to win :)

    Even the best reaper can only run around trying to survive hoping their teammates are good and killing stuff fast or it becomes free food at the first sight of enemy.

    Yeah but thing is reaper has huge weaknesses but also huge strengths as reapers chill and shroud spin to win has complete cheese brokenness all over it, just like the rest of the classes do lol. That's why it's a noob stomper and is played in low ranks, high rank players are to good to be caught by it over and over but a whole team of silver players will get deleted by one reaper mid by the chill spin to win combo lol what makes it worse is that's what reapers do over and over yet players still fall for it in lower ranks lol

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

    and good everything else deletes the reaper, thats the pickle

    Yep but that’s what people forget it’s a 5 man team u are ment to play as it to win :)

    Even the best reaper can only run around trying to survive hoping their teammates are good and killing stuff fast or it becomes free food at the first sight of enemy.

    Yeah but thing is reaper has huge weaknesses but also huge strengths as reapers chill and shroud spin to win has complete cheese brokenness all over it, just like the rest of the classes do lol. That's why it's a noob stomper and is played in low ranks, high rank players are to good to be caught by it over and over but a whole team of silver players will get deleted by one reaper mid by the chill spin to win combo lol what makes it worse is that's what reapers do over and over yet players still fall for it in lower ranks lol

    reaper has ALOT of overlaping easy to get damage boosts, that turn singular skills into dodge or die.
    People have to learn to avoid them compleatly, not just dodge specific skills.
    Its a silver gatekeeper xd

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.
    So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

    Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

    There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

    Just like mortrialus said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

    Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

    While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.

    Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.

    And attacks from condition damage somehow don't? You make it sound like minor conditions from things like weak skills or auto attacks can kill you but the same for power damage can't. You can avoid burst but still die to the followup skills and auto attacks, this isn't exclusive to one or the other type of damage.

    You are't passively being killed by something you are , in one for or another failing to avoid an attack.

    Some aspects of certain builds, power or condi, are over tuned, but condi in general is not when compared relatively. Regardless of this everything still needs to be toned down.

    I still maintain the notion a lot of people don't like fighting conditions and don't know how to because the death log doesn't give you enough information. Power skills show [You got hit by this skill for X] where as condi is [You died to condi but I'm not going to tell you which skills did all the condi]. Its why all the complaints about condi are over arching where as for power they are targeted.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.
    So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

    Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

    There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

    Just like mortrialus said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

    Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

    While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.

    Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.

    And attacks from condition damage somehow don't? You make it sound like minor conditions from things like weak skills or auto attacks can kill you but the same for power damage can't. You can avoid burst but still die to the followup skills and auto attacks, this isn't exclusive to one or the other type of damage.

    You are't passively being killed by something you are , in one for or another failing to avoid an attack.

    Some aspects of certain builds, power or condi, are over tuned, but condi in general is not when compared relatively. Regardless of this everything still needs to be toned down.

    I still maintain the notion a lot of people don't like fighting conditions and don't know how to because the death log doesn't give you enough information. Power skills show [You got hit by this skill for X] where as condi is [You died to condi but I'm not going to tell you which skills did all the condi]. Its why all the complaints about condi are over arching where as for power they are targeted.

    to comment on it.
    entire axe autoattack chain from axe ( cmirage ) deals about as much as 1 hit from auto ( warrior )
    there are hard hitters in both classes, arcing ( low cd )
    vs p4 from cmirage ( much longer cd )
    Honestly chip power damage sticks better then condi, expecially against classes with mini barriers ( weaver/scrapper )
    Or cleanses that are built in ( weaver/thief + somewhat rev )
    its not black or white, power builds have ALOT chip damage too.
    warrior can throw sword, dodge for damage, autos, and low cd arcing or gs3.
    ranger has low cd maul and pet doing the chip damage for them for example.
    its not black or white

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

    We can also just leave condition damage output the way it is, but reduce the avenues at which it can be applied. Taking more hits in a very short window is contextual, especially if those hits are rapid and infeasible to reliably dodge or mitigate. In those cases, Its almost like stealth bursts - attacks that you cant accurately predict but rack up to hit you for crazy damage anyway if you don't cleanse.

    I think some avenues of condi application are fine. Embrace the darkness and primordial stance are good examples of predictable condi damage you can respond to. I still think some attention should be given to autos that can rack up bleeds or strings of attacks with long channel times that still put 4-5 stacks of dot on you even if you dodge the first half.

    My opinion is this. Condition damage should have the potential to burst like raw power, but it needs a bit of a balancing act. The harder the attack or attack string is to predict and dodge, the less stacks it should put on you and it should have higher damage to compensate. That way, if someone eats the whole attack, they get punished like they would have if they ate a power variant, but if they dodge and you still hit them with part of it you get the benefit of DoT. If that gets put in place, then I think we can start toning down access to cleanse.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays Every Class]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    I hate those Firebrand! Using their skills and condis... How dare!!!
    Necro is OK by the way...

    I think that if you eat all of soul spiral in any context, you deserve it.
    The only reason I think you're upset about this is because you tried to facetank a reaper that had just used "Nothing Can Save You!" on you, converted a good chunk of your boons into vulnerability and was carving through your blocks that you expected to save you, when you should have dodged/blinded to avoid the damage output for 4 seconds.
    And that matchup is the only one it's good at.

    Super glad to see reaper being useful in fighting a build that can hard carry a team unchecked.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays Every Class]

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.
    So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

    Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

    There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

    Just like mortrialus said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

    Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

    While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.

    Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.

    And attacks from condition damage somehow don't? You make it sound like minor conditions from things like weak skills or auto attacks can kill you but the same for power damage can't. You can avoid burst but still die to the followup skills and auto attacks, this isn't exclusive to one or the other type of damage.

    You are't passively being killed by something you are , in one for or another failing to avoid an attack.

    Some aspects of certain builds, power or condi, are over tuned, but condi in general is not when compared relatively. Regardless of this everything still needs to be toned down.

    I still maintain the notion a lot of people don't like fighting conditions and don't know how to because the death log doesn't give you enough information. Power skills show [You got hit by this skill for X] where as condi is [You died to condi but I'm not going to tell you which skills did all the condi]. Its why all the complaints about condi are over arching where as for power they are targeted.

    You can also auto attack in condi. The point is. Is that it is over tuned. You can avoid by correct positioning. You can't avoid aoe in an entire circle you get hurt just being stand next to it..

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or better yet:
    Chop down Condition damage in general.
    It should not be able to burst.

    That hasn't been true since HoT really.
    Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
    So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.
    So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

    Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain.

    No, just no! If each attack inflicts less stacks, but with a longer duration you can not burst by definition. You have to stack with more attacks to achieve the same amount of dps. This mechanic is called ramp up time and it is intended for condi damage because that type of damage leaves you more stats for sustain.

    If a condi build has no ramp up time, it gets problematic, esp. when it can cover the damaging conditions with cover conditions. That's why guardians (mainly burn - easy to cleanse) have a lower ramp up time than necros (tons of different conditions at once - hard to cleanse).

    Okay let's take Deathly Chill as an example:

    pre burst nerf: 3 bleeds for 5 seconds
    post burst nerf: 2 bleeds for 8 seconds

    You get (pretty much) the same damage in either 5 seconds or you get it in 8 seconds. Both is the result of one attack, but the latter leaves you more room to counterplay - either kill the target before the whole damage is applied or cleanse (for both you have 3 seconds more time post nerf).

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.

    It didn't work.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.

    It didn't work.

    They need to tackle the condition damage stat.