Is it time for Raid god augments? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Is it time for Raid god augments?

Seeing how it appears that the develope for difficult 10 man content is probably completely abandoned, and there appears noone is left at anet who is interested in them since the layoffs, is it time for fractal god style augment system to give some long term carrot to revitalize interest. For some background, the last cm fractal was released in july 2017, and the augments were released in November 2017 as a reward overhaul.
If anything, there needs to be a reward overhaul with LI and LD. A raid god augment system that takes years of raid materials to complete may breathe life in a mode similar to fractals.

Comments

  • You cannot have life in a mode designed by the very start to be only for a very few (compared with the entire playerbase). No matter what you will do, the same low amount of players will grind this mode until they will achieve their goal. Not extra players. The same.

    And now - ANet has no time/manpower to: update WvW in order to retain a larger number of players / work to a new XPac in order to retain a larger number of players / to find a way to revive the dead maps (especially some of the LS3/LS4 maps) / to .... etc.

    I, as a personal opinion, find very bad the idea to work for the satisfaction of a very few players with the price of ignoring the pain of the most.

    But, I think, some life can be injected in this game mode - by admitting the mistake of introducing the raids and to make the raids either having one lower difficulty - accessible by the most / or by making different tiers of difficulty (keeping the LI or LD - in fact this is the main reason for many to do raids) etc.

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    You cannot have life in a mode designed by the very start to be only for a very few (compared with the entire playerbase). No matter what you will do, the same low amount of players will grind this mode until they will achieve their goal. Not extra players. The same.

    And now - ANet has no time/manpower to: update WvW in order to retain a larger number of players / work to a new XPac in order to retain a larger number of players / to find a way to revive the dead maps (especially some of the LS3/LS4 maps) / to .... etc.

    I, as a personal opinion, find very bad the idea to work for the satisfaction of a very few players with the price of ignoring the pain of the most.

    But, I think, some life can be injected in this game mode - by admitting the mistake of introducing the raids and to make the raids either having one lower difficulty - accessible by the most / or by making different tiers of difficulty (keeping the LI or LD - in fact this is the main reason for many to do raids) etc.

    I dont know about you but whenever I join wvw it is empty. 99 percent of time there is noone.
    It is true that raids LFG is sometimes empty but I am part of 6 guilds/discord servers that do raids regulary. In fact exept wendsday all days are covered by at least 1 raid session.

    I know that I can meet only 3 servers at a time in wvw. That doesnt change the fact that it is empty even if there are more players in total.

    I asked in a guild that started raiding in june(none or very limited raid experiance) if they think now that raids are hard and if easier version is required. Answer was that atthe start they thought that there should be one but now they feel that it is good that there is no easier mode.

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    I dont know about you but whenever I join wvw it is empty. 99 percent of time there is noone.
    It is true that raids LFG is sometimes empty but I am part of 6 guilds/discord servers that do raids regulary. In fact exept wendsday all days are covered by at least 1 raid session.

    I know that I can meet only 3 servers at a time in wvw. That doesnt change the fact that it is empty even if there are more players in total.

    I asked in a guild that started raiding in june(none or very limited raid experiance) if they think now that raids are hard and if easier version is required. Answer was that atthe start they thought that there should be one but now they feel that it is good that there is no easier mode.

    The WvW may be empty now - after ANet's decision to implement some controversial or even rejected by players changes. I mean the DBL / gliding / the mounts etc. Yes, this was the reason I said WvW update. This game mode was one of the most popular modes in the game. Now it is almost a ghost town. For this should ANet spend efforts and resources. I bet that even now, in its actual state, WvW has more players than the max. number of regular raiders for the peak of raids activity.

    That guild is a guild of raiders. So, raids for raiders. This was the situation until now, and the OP observed that the mode is not very alive. I proposed a raids for all players - something like what fractals are. Something like what the dungeons were. For all. This can bring some players in. And that means new life.

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The WvW may be empty now - after ANet's decision to implement some controversial or even rejected by players changes. I mean the DBL / gliding / the mounts etc. Yes, this was the reason I said WvW update. This game mode was one of the most popular modes in the game. Now it is almost a ghost town. For this should ANet spend efforts and resources. I bet that even now, in its actual state, WvW has more players than the max. number of regular raiders for the peak of raids activity.

    The same could be said about raids. You could say the same about the pve maps. Anet is like a little child that doesnt want its old toys anymore, because it found a new fancy one. Players shouldnt need to fight eacht other to have a small chance of getting some attention for the gamemode they prefer to play.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    I dont know about you but whenever I join wvw it is empty. 99 percent of time there is noone.
    It is true that raids LFG is sometimes empty but I am part of 6 guilds/discord servers that do raids regulary. In fact exept wendsday all days are covered by at least 1 raid session.

    I know that I can meet only 3 servers at a time in wvw. That doesnt change the fact that it is empty even if there are more players in total.

    I asked in a guild that started raiding in june(none or very limited raid experiance) if they think now that raids are hard and if easier version is required. Answer was that atthe start they thought that there should be one but now they feel that it is good that there is no easier mode.

    The WvW may be empty now - after ANet's decision to implement some controversial or even rejected by players changes. I mean the DBL / gliding / the mounts etc. Yes, this was the reason I said WvW update. This game mode was one of the most popular modes in the game. Now it is almost a ghost town. For this should ANet spend efforts and resources. I bet that even now, in its actual state, WvW has more players than the max. number of regular raiders for the peak of raids activity.

    That guild is a guild of raiders. So, raids for raiders. This was the situation until now, and the OP observed that the mode is not very alive. I proposed a raids for all players - something like what fractals are. Something like what the dungeons were. For all. This can bring some players in. And that means new life.

    I love WvW. It was never one of the most populer modes in the game. Never in the 7 years since the game launched. WvW was played by more players in the past yes, but compared to the games PvE base (by a large margin the open world PvE content and maybe dungeons in their prime), it was always a tiny insignificant spec.

    You aren't proposing something similar to fractals. Last time I checked, running sub T4 fractals puts you at a significant lower loot level than T4 or even CMs. You are asking for the main reward of raids to be accessible via an easier mode. I doubt that will ever happen. But you are free to ask for anything you want, players have been asking for welfare LI since the very conception of raids. There is all kinds of players, and those who are waiting for welfare LI are the ones still waiting to this day, while others have gone with the times and either:

    • learned to raid
    • gotten their legendary armor via pvp/wvw
    • given up on legendary armor
    • quit the game

    As far as raids not being very alive, I caution anyone from buying into the doom and gloom to much. Yes, raid activity is down versus it's all-time high. There are still thousands upon thousands of players playing raid content daily, weekly, monthly. Compared to WvW likely even more players if one goes by unique players.

    As to the topic at hand: the idea sounds nice, but might have some issues when used in raids. Fractals see Fractal God balanced via the insane grind (which only the most dedicated players go for) while at the same time having the bulk of its rewards in mainstream accessible content (regular T4). The "upgrades" for raids would have to be designed according to similar lines: aka not discourage playing together even with players without the "titles/upgrades".

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    I dont know about you but whenever I join wvw it is empty. 99 percent of time there is noone.
    It is true that raids LFG is sometimes empty but I am part of 6 guilds/discord servers that do raids regulary. In fact exept wendsday all days are covered by at least 1 raid session.

    I know that I can meet only 3 servers at a time in wvw. That doesnt change the fact that it is empty even if there are more players in total.

    I asked in a guild that started raiding in june(none or very limited raid experiance) if they think now that raids are hard and if easier version is required. Answer was that atthe start they thought that there should be one but now they feel that it is good that there is no easier mode.

    The WvW may be empty now - after ANet's decision to implement some controversial or even rejected by players changes. I mean the DBL / gliding / the mounts etc. Yes, this was the reason I said WvW update. This game mode was one of the most popular modes in the game. Now it is almost a ghost town. For this should ANet spend efforts and resources. I bet that even now, in its actual state, WvW has more players than the max. number of regular raiders for the peak of raids activity.

    That guild is a guild of raiders. So, raids for raiders. This was the situation until now, and the OP observed that the mode is not very alive. I proposed a raids for all players - something like what fractals are. Something like what the dungeons were. For all. This can bring some players in. And that means new life.

    At it's peak, 30% of the player base (according to efficiency) had participated in Raids and cleared Vale Guardian, which is more of the population than players finishing Living Story episodes these days.

    Raids, just like most other forms and modes of content, including WvW, had legs, but just weren't supported enough by Anet in terms of content and rewards, which went in favour of Living World and Gemstore, neither of which is retaining players at large.

    As for a Raid God system, keep in mind that such a system is just yet another band-aid. Many Fractal Players could buy Fractal God 3 times over by now and got nothing left to do either. Such a system just buys time to maybe keep some players engaged until new content drops, but it's not a replacement for regular content and general reward updates, which is something Anet doesn't seem to be either willing or capable of doing.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The WvW may be empty now - after ANet's decision to implement some controversial or even rejected by players changes. I mean the DBL / gliding / the mounts etc. Yes, this was the reason I said WvW update. This game mode was one of the most popular modes in the game. Now it is almost a ghost town. For this should ANet spend efforts and resources. I bet that even now, in its actual state, WvW has more players than the max. number of regular raiders for the peak of raids activity.

    That guild is a guild of raiders. So, raids for raiders. This was the situation until now, and the OP observed that the mode is not very alive. I proposed a raids for all players - something like what fractals are. Something like what the dungeons were. For all. This can bring some players in. And that means new life.

    At it's peak, 30% of the player base (according to efficiency) had participated in Raids and cleared Vale Guardian, which is more of the population than players finishing Living Story episodes these days.

    Raids, just like most other forms and modes of content, including WvW, had legs, but just weren't supported enough by Anet in terms of content and rewards, which went in favour of Living World and Gemstore, neither of which is retaining players at large.

    As for a Raid God system, keep in mind that such a system is just yet another band-aid. Many Fractal Players could buy Fractal God 3 times over by now and got nothing left to do either. Such a system just buys time to maybe keep some players engaged until new content drops, but it's not a replacement for regular content and general reward updates, which is something Anet doesn't seem to be either willing or capable of doing.

    Gw2efficiency also shows nearly 30% of accounts having unlocked the Warclaw. It's not a particularly reliable source on participation for the full player base, as people who sign up for it are more likely to be active players, both in terms of how many hours a week they play and year-by-year participation.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tbh i would be ok with the idea that i could "buy" titles with LIs/LDs as i have nothing else to do with them anyways. Envoys herald title is closest to that but even that doesn't need that many LIs.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    @Ben K.6238 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The WvW may be empty now - after ANet's decision to implement some controversial or even rejected by players changes. I mean the DBL / gliding / the mounts etc. Yes, this was the reason I said WvW update. This game mode was one of the most popular modes in the game. Now it is almost a ghost town. For this should ANet spend efforts and resources. I bet that even now, in its actual state, WvW has more players than the max. number of regular raiders for the peak of raids activity.

    That guild is a guild of raiders. So, raids for raiders. This was the situation until now, and the OP observed that the mode is not very alive. I proposed a raids for all players - something like what fractals are. Something like what the dungeons were. For all. This can bring some players in. And that means new life.

    At it's peak, 30% of the player base (according to efficiency) had participated in Raids and cleared Vale Guardian, which is more of the population than players finishing Living Story episodes these days.

    Raids, just like most other forms and modes of content, including WvW, had legs, but just weren't supported enough by Anet in terms of content and rewards, which went in favour of Living World and Gemstore, neither of which is retaining players at large.

    As for a Raid God system, keep in mind that such a system is just yet another band-aid. Many Fractal Players could buy Fractal God 3 times over by now and got nothing left to do either. Such a system just buys time to maybe keep some players engaged until new content drops, but it's not a replacement for regular content and general reward updates, which is something Anet doesn't seem to be either willing or capable of doing.

    Gw2efficiency also shows nearly 30% of accounts having unlocked the Warclaw. It's not a particularly reliable source on participation for the full player base, as people who sign up for it are more likely to be active players, both in terms of how many hours a week they play and year-by-year participation.

    The Warclaw, considering stacked up potions from dailies, takes less than an hour to acquire, so that's not exactly surprising, other than maybe in how low that unlock rate is, especially since as you say efficiency is probably leaning towards the more engaged players.

    Still, those are all the numbers we have and they looked pretty good for Raids before the release schedule for them slowed down drastically with W4 and on.

    My point stands though that across the board game population is dropping off rapidly, for pretty much all gamemodes (even the forums barely still see any activity in most sections as there is just nothing to talk about). And in pretty much all cases it's lack of content and updates, rather than the quality of content. Neither Raids, nor WvW, nor PvP or Dungeons etc. were doomed to fail, fatally flawed or too niche. They all did great in keeping their target demographics engaged until Anet started to abandon them/scaling down content production in favour of other (failed) products and almost exclusively started to put new shinies to acquire into their store instead of adding compelling incentives to actually keep playing the game to earn things.

    I just don't think there is a point in shouting over their graves which gamemode deserved saving more over others, as imo they all did.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    Depends on what augmentations is being suggested and purpose for it. Personally, feels like not a good idea; at least for now.

    If its for a currency sink, would prefer it to be something unique eg. skins, craftables or profitable materials(to make raid more profitable).

    Any augmentation(similar to fractal) is a power creep/ nerf to raids. Exposure, applied to specific wing(s) or to all? If its the later, it might create issues(probably balancing) unfavorably to some of the bosses. Balancing issues; will future :lol: raids be balanced with augmentations in mind? Difficult for raid starters without augmentations :fearful: but easier for augmented :sweat_smile: players, if or when a new wing is released.

  • It could cause balance issues, make raids unnecessarily easier, increase elitism, and give an unjustified advantage to experienced players. So no

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    Currency sink, sure.
    Give us something to do or work on if we can't have new content at a decent rate. However, not sure about a Raid God title that required a ton of LI as a band-aid for the veterans. I mean, how much would they ask for? A thousand or two? That certainly takes a while to acquire but then people have been raiding for years with nothing to spend their LI on. Meaning most of us could instantly drop that 1000+ LI if they added anything "useful".
    We also need to be careful not to go too crazy with boosts and bonuses unless were to buff the current encounters to make up for the crazy powercreep if we were to add anything even half as strong as the Fractal boosts. But then this would in turn punish anyone who is just starting out or at least not a frequent raider as others already pointed out. We would get even more complaining about how hard it is to get into raids.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    It would be cool if you could upgrade any kind of regular ascended trinket into a legendary tier (with the mystic forge) by playing raids that requires LIs and LDs. The recipe could be something like:
    One regular ascended trinket, a special item (combination of vendor item tied to x number of LIs, x number of LDs, and 2 different lesser gift), another item that is crafted by 500 of any discipline (could be tied to 500 jewelry for example) and your regular mystic clovers cost.

    That way people that don’t like aurora/vision combo could get a legendary trinket and it would get players to accept raids as a valuable and sustainable end game goal.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Gw2efficiency also shows nearly 30% of accounts having unlocked the Warclaw. It's not a particularly reliable source on participation for the full player base, as people who sign up for it are more likely to be active players, both in terms of how many hours a week they play and year-by-year participation.

    The main issue with that is how to count "participation" as an "active" player can mean different things for different players. For example, a player that plays 5 hours a month is an active player? Do they "participate" in the content they play? Yes, but I'm sure if they stopped playing they wouldn't exactly be missed. On the other hand, a player that plays 5 hours a day that stops playing WILL probably be missed.

    As for the topic, a currency sink would be nice, the longer it takes to add, the harder it will become to come up with sensible rewards. For example if they allowed LI to be traded for materials (to make raids more profitable) they'd need to add a daily cap so as not to affect the market as experienced raiders would trade their hundreds of LI in a short time span. But in any case, whatever they add, it shouldn't, in any way or form, add more power. Power creep isn't what Raids need

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    Doing some fancy math (not really) and looking at Fractal God and the progress towards it, let's do some brainstorming of what could be done.

    Fractal God Title takes with CMs and recs (without CMs):
    Tier 1

    • 45 days (75 days)
    • 25,000 frelics
    • 75 Integrated Fractal Matrix
    • 8 Fractal Journals

    Tier 4

    • 287 days (605 days)
    • 160,000 frelics
    • 3,200 p. frelics
    • 750 Integrated Fractal Matrix
    • 24 Fractal Journals

    (skipped the in-between steps to not make this to long)

    Now if we purely convert the time-frame to raids and current rewards (to find a nice base value off of which to go off), this results in:
    Tier 1 (45 days = 6 weeks) [75 days = 11 weeks]

    • 900 Magnetite Shards [1,650 Magnetite Shards]
    • 900 Gaeting Crystals [1,650 Gaeting Crystals]
    • 90 LI [165 LI]
    • 60 LD [110 LD]

    Tier 4 (287 days = 41 weeks) [605 days = 86.5 weeks]

    • 6,150 Magnetite Shards [12,975 Magnetite Shards]
    • 6,150 Gaeting Crystals [12,975 Gaeting Crystals]
    • 615 LI [1,297.55 LI]
    • 410 LD [865 LD]

    Given these values, and considering that we lack loot similar to Fractal Journals (which were added with the fractal rework) and Integrated Fractal Matrixes, a similar upgrade path could be something along the lines of:
    Tier 1

    • 1,000 Magnetite Shards
    • 1,000 Gaeting Crystals
    • insert new resource similar to Integrated Fractal Matrixes (could drop directly from CM raids in final form, also drop as base form in regular raids and be trade-able on the TP, then upgraded vie Magnetite Shards and/or Gaeting Crystals to final form)
    • insert resource similar to Fractal Journals (could be gained by converting LI or LD as additional sink)

    Obviously this results in a pure copy paste from Fractals and also not accounted for is the required infusions (was to lazy to factor for gold cost since one could do an entire section how long it takes for Fractal God to pay off).

    It would give CMs some incentive though, without messing with LI/LD acquisition. It would even give reason for running more regular raids, since material could be traded on the TP.

    Upgrade wise, I'm split. I'm not in favor of power creep as in fractals, though long-term progression is always a good carrot on a stick (maybe the opposite to fractals, instead of stacking damage increase, a stacking damage reduction, it's not as though high end raids would need it but it would make some even more aggressive compositions possible, maybe). Maybe something as basic as: each rank increases gold reward per boss killed by 20s... 1g (results in another 20-22g per week, hardly game breaking) or something along those lines.

    Then again, if you are at 12-15k Shards (top gw2eff players is at 60k+, I myself am at 14.5k currently and have converted a good 10k so far and more), 1k+ additional LI (beyond the basic 750 for armors), etc. who cares any longer? Give it some power increase, or not. It's not as though this would replace content. As mentioned, it would be a band aid to keep the most engaged players occupied without much effort.

    As far as balance, obviously future content (if there is any) would be balanced without upgrades in mind. Just as in fractals.

  • I wonder how much of a powercreep would there be if we have 1 to 7% dps increase for a few members of a raid team. Of course most people will be on the 1 to 2% range just like in fractals. You would probably get much higher dps gains by playing boss optimized builds and good rotations. And of course a full team of raid gods would have notocable gains, but at that point, they were going to clear the content one way or another anyways. Congratulations for clearing the same content for years, here is a way to clear it alittle faster.
    To be honest fractal god is not that much of powercreep, when there are fractal potions. I think no one would want raid potions that give 15% outgoing damage, 25% damage reduction, and 50% endurance regen.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    I wonder how much of a powercreep would there be if we have 1 to 7% dps increase for a few members of a raid team.

    LFG listings: "Looking for 9 more with 7% dps increase"

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    I wonder how much of a powercreep would there be if we have 1 to 7% dps increase for a few members of a raid team.

    LFG listings: "Looking for 9 more with 7% dps increase"

    But noones does that for fractals, you see plenty of food/pots but food and utilities is the norm in raids anyways, but no fractal god only groups. Plus if it takes years of raiding to get max tier, very few people would have it, meaning that listing would forever be unfilled because raid gods probably would have statics anyways for their clear.
    Fractal god has been out for 2 years, and this has not materialized in fractals, at least not in NA, why would this happen in raids?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Powercreep doesn't matter anyways. The game is not in its very best state. I don't want to turn this in another doom thread but let's face it. Raids are totally out of Anet's view as the whole game is changing. I can't think of them adding anything really "new" in the near future so why not implement an easy augmentation system - even with power creep. They would be able to keep the milk going with veteran raiders and due to the fact that those play other content as well, why not.
    The only thing that won't be a result is the revitalization of raids or the game as a whole - don't even dream about it.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Gw2efficiency also shows nearly 30% of accounts having unlocked the Warclaw. It's not a particularly reliable source on participation for the full player base, as people who sign up for it are more likely to be active players, both in terms of how many hours a week they play and year-by-year participation.

    The main issue with that is how to count "participation" as an "active" player can mean different things for different players. For example, a player that plays 5 hours a month is an active player? Do they "participate" in the content they play? Yes, but I'm sure if they stopped playing they wouldn't exactly be missed. On the other hand, a player that plays 5 hours a day that stops playing WILL probably be missed.

    Doesn't really matter what counts as participation or activity - basically, gw2efficiency is pretty sketchy for measuring either of them.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    Those topic are starting to feel old, and it's already been said more than a 1,000 times: raids aren't too difficult , and if you do T4 fractals, you should have no issue getting into raids. So to be honest, I am not too sure if people are simply trolling at this point or if they are complaining that they can't get directly from open world to raids...

    If this is the case, that'd be trying to take a shortcut without proper knowledge of gw2 combat instanced, as it is very different from open world which doesn't require you to manage boons, or a workable teamcomp/builds. Then the result as expected should be ultimate failure. Since raids are meant to be 1 level above fractals.

    It's like starting a new game on the most difficult level of difficulty without having played easy or normal mode first, and asking why you're failing, and that the hard mode should be nerfed.... Are you serious?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:
    Those topic are starting to feel old, and it's already been said more than a 1,000 times: raids aren't too difficult , and if you do T4 fractals, you should have no issue getting into raids. So to be honest, I am not too sure if people are simply trolling at this point or if they are complaining that they can't get directly from open world to raids...

    If this is the case, that'd be trying to take a shortcut without proper knowledge of gw2 combat instanced, as it is very different from open world which doesn't require you to manage boons, or a workable teamcomp/builds. Then the result as expected should be ultimate failure. Since raids are meant to be 1 level above fractals.

    It's like starting a new game on the most difficult level of difficulty without having played easy or normal mode first, and asking why you're failing, and that the hard mode should be nerfed.... Are you serious?

    But other games throw people at raiding fairly quickly. The dungeon only phase in wow is pretty short if you're a dedicated raider, your ilvl should be high enough from the previous tier to go straight into the next. As i'm pushing further into this game, i'm starting to understand this from the perspective of the high barriers on the appropriate gear that takes a while to collect for raid purposes. In fact games like WoW have lfr and low level training raids each tier too. It's expected that you can jump into raids pretty quick in other games and i think that's where a lot of disconnect comes from when vets from GW2 talk to newer players coming from other games.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Those topic are starting to feel old, and it's already been said more than a 1,000 times: raids aren't too difficult , and if you do T4 fractals, you should have no issue getting into raids. So to be honest, I am not too sure if people are simply trolling at this point or if they are complaining that they can't get directly from open world to raids...

    If this is the case, that'd be trying to take a shortcut without proper knowledge of gw2 combat instanced, as it is very different from open world which doesn't require you to manage boons, or a workable teamcomp/builds. Then the result as expected should be ultimate failure. Since raids are meant to be 1 level above fractals.

    It's like starting a new game on the most difficult level of difficulty without having played easy or normal mode first, and asking why you're failing, and that the hard mode should be nerfed.... Are you serious?

    But other games throw people at raiding fairly quickly. The dungeon only phase in wow is pretty short if you're a dedicated raider, your ilvl should be high enough from the previous tier to go straight into the next. As i'm pushing further into this game, i'm starting to understand this from the perspective of the high barriers on the appropriate gear that takes a while to collect forqq raid purposes. In fact games like WoW have lfr and low level training raids each tier too. It's expected that you can jump into raids pretty quick in other games and i think that's where a lot of disconnect comes from when vets from GW2 talk to newer players coming from other games.

    I'm not sure if comparing World of Warcraft to GW2 is relevant, just because one has vertical progression with high content release, and the other one is horizontal progression with slow content release.

    I might be talking from my own experience here, but in GW2 playera are aiming at "speed-clearing" boss fights and have mastered them over and over, while in WoW most guilds etc... Are aimed at defeating the content and progressing together towards the next level of difficulty. Hence why I don't think an easier difficulty is required.

    I personally don't like the idea of LFR, it barely has any difficulty and completing the raid doesn't really give any idea of the me mechanics at play there, since the low level difficulty pretty much allows you to not care about any of the mechanics. You can experience the same thing with 24-25 fractals compared to 99 and 100. Being able to do lvl 24 and 25 does not give you much clue about doing 99 and 100 and even less 99CM and 100CM.

    If let's say Anet was to create an easy mode for Vale Guardian, from which they halven green explosion damage and halven the distance to which a blue can teleport you. The boss will be rendered ridiculously easy. And players won't associate mechanics to damage.

    The main reason why groups wipe at Vale Guardian is 1. Player getting teleported, 2. The tank getting downed, 3 seekers damaging the group. As you can imagine, it all pretty much revolve around the not tank not getting down, since having to Rez the tank will increase your chances of getting teleported by the blue, and dying to blue + green damage. The easy will only give the wrong idea to tank, and make the encounter probably even harder for inexperienced groups.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Those topic are starting to feel old, and it's already been said more than a 1,000 times: raids aren't too difficult , and if you do T4 fractals, you should have no issue getting into raids. So to be honest, I am not too sure if people are simply trolling at this point or if they are complaining that they can't get directly from open world to raids...

    If this is the case, that'd be trying to take a shortcut without proper knowledge of gw2 combat instanced, as it is very different from open world which doesn't require you to manage boons, or a workable teamcomp/builds. Then the result as expected should be ultimate failure. Since raids are meant to be 1 level above fractals.

    It's like starting a new game on the most difficult level of difficulty without having played easy or normal mode first, and asking why you're failing, and that the hard mode should be nerfed.... Are you serious?

    But other games throw people at raiding fairly quickly. The dungeon only phase in wow is pretty short if you're a dedicated raider, your ilvl should be high enough from the previous tier to go straight into the next. As i'm pushing further into this game, i'm starting to understand this from the perspective of the high barriers on the appropriate gear that takes a while to collect for raid purposes. In fact games like WoW have lfr and low level training raids each tier too. It's expected that you can jump into raids pretty quick in other games and i think that's where a lot of disconnect comes from when vets from GW2 talk to newer players coming from other games.

    Exotic gear is more than fine for raiding in GW2, especially for dps (which still make up at least 6 of 10 slots in raid compositions).

    A player who spends 10 minutes with exotic gear on the damage golem practicing and understanding his class will severely outperform a players in ascended gear who did not.

    I really do not understand this obsession people have with ascended gear. Not even the math makes any sense if one compares the stats between exotic and ascended. The most expensive ascended items (armor) barely provide ANY stat advantage over exotic (around 2%, this has been pointed out and calculated multiple times by now). The ascended items with semi significant stat advantage (as in you would notice a difference if similar experienced, but still by far to little to carry inexperience) trinkets, are widely available and take days of casual play to acquire. Ascended weapons by now are also awarded left and right via achievements, easy one time doable collections, etc.

    Over emphasizing ascended gear will lead only to 1 thing (and/or are a sign of):
    A persons lack of understanding how this games itemization works as well as: will result in significant disappointment when the results, once ascended gear is acquired, do not match the expectations.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Those topic are starting to feel old, and it's already been said more than a 1,000 times: raids aren't too difficult , and if you do T4 fractals, you should have no issue getting into raids. So to be honest, I am not too sure if people are simply trolling at this point or if they are complaining that they can't get directly from open world to raids...

    If this is the case, that'd be trying to take a shortcut without proper knowledge of gw2 combat instanced, as it is very different from open world which doesn't require you to manage boons, or a workable teamcomp/builds. Then the result as expected should be ultimate failure. Since raids are meant to be 1 level above fractals.

    It's like starting a new game on the most difficult level of difficulty without having played easy or normal mode first, and asking why you're failing, and that the hard mode should be nerfed.... Are you serious?

    But other games throw people at raiding fairly quickly. The dungeon only phase in wow is pretty short if you're a dedicated raider, your ilvl should be high enough from the previous tier to go straight into the next. As i'm pushing further into this game, i'm starting to understand this from the perspective of the high barriers on the appropriate gear that takes a while to collect for raid purposes. In fact games like WoW have lfr and low level training raids each tier too. It's expected that you can jump into raids pretty quick in other games and i think that's where a lot of disconnect comes from when vets from GW2 talk to newer players coming from other games.

    Exotic gear is more than fine for raiding in GW2, especially for dps (which still make up at least 6 of 10 slots in raid compositions).

    A player who spends 10 minutes with exotic gear on the damage golem practicing and understanding his class will severely outperform a players in ascended gear who did not.

    I really do not understand this obsession people have with ascended gear. Not even the math makes any sense if one compares the stats between exotic and ascended. The most expensive ascended items (armor) barely provide ANY stat advantage over exotic (around 2%, this has been pointed out and calculated multiple times by now). The ascended items with semi significant stat advantage (as in you would notice a difference if similar experienced, but still by far to little to carry inexperience) trinkets, are widely available and take days of casual play to acquire. Ascended weapons by now are also awarded left and right via achievements, easy one time doable collections, etc.

    Over emphasizing ascended gear will lead only to 1 thing (and/or are a sign of):
    A persons lack of understanding how this games itemization works as well as: will result in significant disappointment when the results, once ascended gear is acquired, do not match the expectations.

    Are you talking about the person I'm responding to who's saying you should be doing t4 fractals before raiding? I never mentioned ascended gear. Even a new player, coming in with nothing, is going to take a while to even get a good exotic set together that isn't the default set handed you from a boosted toon. 30-50g per profession doesn't look like much for leveling, but it's harder to come by without professions to do the conversions. IN other games PVE progression is pretty much hopping from one piece of content to the next, no crafting in between. I'm not saying GW2's approach is bad, but I'm just saying it takes more effort.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Those topic are starting to feel old, and it's already been said more than a 1,000 times: raids aren't too difficult , and if you do T4 fractals, you should have no issue getting into raids. So to be honest, I am not too sure if people are simply trolling at this point or if they are complaining that they can't get directly from open world to raids...

    If this is the case, that'd be trying to take a shortcut without proper knowledge of gw2 combat instanced, as it is very different from open world which doesn't require you to manage boons, or a workable teamcomp/builds. Then the result as expected should be ultimate failure. Since raids are meant to be 1 level above fractals.

    It's like starting a new game on the most difficult level of difficulty without having played easy or normal mode first, and asking why you're failing, and that the hard mode should be nerfed.... Are you serious?

    But other games throw people at raiding fairly quickly. The dungeon only phase in wow is pretty short if you're a dedicated raider, your ilvl should be high enough from the previous tier to go straight into the next. As i'm pushing further into this game, i'm starting to understand this from the perspective of the high barriers on the appropriate gear that takes a while to collect for raid purposes. In fact games like WoW have lfr and low level training raids each tier too. It's expected that you can jump into raids pretty quick in other games and i think that's where a lot of disconnect comes from when vets from GW2 talk to newer players coming from other games.

    Exotic gear is more than fine for raiding in GW2, especially for dps (which still make up at least 6 of 10 slots in raid compositions).

    A player who spends 10 minutes with exotic gear on the damage golem practicing and understanding his class will severely outperform a players in ascended gear who did not.

    I really do not understand this obsession people have with ascended gear. Not even the math makes any sense if one compares the stats between exotic and ascended. The most expensive ascended items (armor) barely provide ANY stat advantage over exotic (around 2%, this has been pointed out and calculated multiple times by now). The ascended items with semi significant stat advantage (as in you would notice a difference if similar experienced, but still by far to little to carry inexperience) trinkets, are widely available and take days of casual play to acquire. Ascended weapons by now are also awarded left and right via achievements, easy one time doable collections, etc.

    Over emphasizing ascended gear will lead only to 1 thing (and/or are a sign of):
    A persons lack of understanding how this games itemization works as well as: will result in significant disappointment when the results, once ascended gear is acquired, do not match the expectations.

    Are you talking about the person I'm responding to who's saying you should be doing t4 fractals before raiding? I never mentioned ascended gear. Even a new player, coming in with nothing, is going to take a while to even get a good exotic set together that isn't the default set handed you from a boosted toon. 30-50g per profession doesn't look like much for leveling, but it's harder to come by without professions to do the conversions. IN other games PVE progression is pretty much hopping from one piece of content to the next, no crafting in between. I'm not saying GW2's approach is bad, but I'm just saying it takes more effort.

    A full set of berserker gear costs around 20g on the TP. If the player did not boost, then the monthly rewards alone in Mystic Coins would easily cover that expense, not to mention the dailies. Add in Runes and Sigils, potentially going for cheaper not meta ones (like Eagle over Scholar) and you can shave off another dozen of gold in gearing after the inital investment into gear.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Those topic are starting to feel old, and it's already been said more than a 1,000 times: raids aren't too difficult , and if you do T4 fractals, you should have no issue getting into raids. So to be honest, I am not too sure if people are simply trolling at this point or if they are complaining that they can't get directly from open world to raids...

    If this is the case, that'd be trying to take a shortcut without proper knowledge of gw2 combat instanced, as it is very different from open world which doesn't require you to manage boons, or a workable teamcomp/builds. Then the result as expected should be ultimate failure. Since raids are meant to be 1 level above fractals.

    It's like starting a new game on the most difficult level of difficulty without having played easy or normal mode first, and asking why you're failing, and that the hard mode should be nerfed.... Are you serious?

    But other games throw people at raiding fairly quickly. The dungeon only phase in wow is pretty short if you're a dedicated raider, your ilvl should be high enough from the previous tier to go straight into the next. As i'm pushing further into this game, i'm starting to understand this from the perspective of the high barriers on the appropriate gear that takes a while to collect for raid purposes. In fact games like WoW have lfr and low level training raids each tier too. It's expected that you can jump into raids pretty quick in other games and i think that's where a lot of disconnect comes from when vets from GW2 talk to newer players coming from other games.

    Exotic gear is more than fine for raiding in GW2, especially for dps (which still make up at least 6 of 10 slots in raid compositions).

    A player who spends 10 minutes with exotic gear on the damage golem practicing and understanding his class will severely outperform a players in ascended gear who did not.

    I really do not understand this obsession people have with ascended gear. Not even the math makes any sense if one compares the stats between exotic and ascended. The most expensive ascended items (armor) barely provide ANY stat advantage over exotic (around 2%, this has been pointed out and calculated multiple times by now). The ascended items with semi significant stat advantage (as in you would notice a difference if similar experienced, but still by far to little to carry inexperience) trinkets, are widely available and take days of casual play to acquire. Ascended weapons by now are also awarded left and right via achievements, easy one time doable collections, etc.

    Over emphasizing ascended gear will lead only to 1 thing (and/or are a sign of):
    A persons lack of understanding how this games itemization works as well as: will result in significant disappointment when the results, once ascended gear is acquired, do not match the expectations.

    Are you talking about the person I'm responding to who's saying you should be doing t4 fractals before raiding? I never mentioned ascended gear. Even a new player, coming in with nothing, is going to take a while to even get a good exotic set together that isn't the default set handed you from a boosted toon. 30-50g per profession doesn't look like much for leveling, but it's harder to come by without professions to do the conversions. IN other games PVE progression is pretty much hopping from one piece of content to the next, no crafting in between. I'm not saying GW2's approach is bad, but I'm just saying it takes more effort.

    A full set of berserker gear costs around 20g on the TP. If the player did not boost, then the monthly rewards alone in Mystic Coins would easily cover that expense, not to mention the dailies. Add in Runes and Sigils, potentially going for cheaper not meta ones (like Eagle over Scholar) and you can shave off another dozen of gold in gearing after the inital investment into gear.

    Sounds like a super robust system, implicitly expecting players to pick up a single role and using professions with the cheapest armor set. Nothing bad could happen in that world. I don't have the time to fact check you, but my hunch, is that this is a cloth set.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Those topic are starting to feel old, and it's already been said more than a 1,000 times: raids aren't too difficult , and if you do T4 fractals, you should have no issue getting into raids. So to be honest, I am not too sure if people are simply trolling at this point or if they are complaining that they can't get directly from open world to raids...

    If this is the case, that'd be trying to take a shortcut without proper knowledge of gw2 combat instanced, as it is very different from open world which doesn't require you to manage boons, or a workable teamcomp/builds. Then the result as expected should be ultimate failure. Since raids are meant to be 1 level above fractals.

    It's like starting a new game on the most difficult level of difficulty without having played easy or normal mode first, and asking why you're failing, and that the hard mode should be nerfed.... Are you serious?

    But other games throw people at raiding fairly quickly. The dungeon only phase in wow is pretty short if you're a dedicated raider, your ilvl should be high enough from the previous tier to go straight into the next. As i'm pushing further into this game, i'm starting to understand this from the perspective of the high barriers on the appropriate gear that takes a while to collect for raid purposes. In fact games like WoW have lfr and low level training raids each tier too. It's expected that you can jump into raids pretty quick in other games and i think that's where a lot of disconnect comes from when vets from GW2 talk to newer players coming from other games.

    Exotic gear is more than fine for raiding in GW2, especially for dps (which still make up at least 6 of 10 slots in raid compositions).

    A player who spends 10 minutes with exotic gear on the damage golem practicing and understanding his class will severely outperform a players in ascended gear who did not.

    I really do not understand this obsession people have with ascended gear. Not even the math makes any sense if one compares the stats between exotic and ascended. The most expensive ascended items (armor) barely provide ANY stat advantage over exotic (around 2%, this has been pointed out and calculated multiple times by now). The ascended items with semi significant stat advantage (as in you would notice a difference if similar experienced, but still by far to little to carry inexperience) trinkets, are widely available and take days of casual play to acquire. Ascended weapons by now are also awarded left and right via achievements, easy one time doable collections, etc.

    Over emphasizing ascended gear will lead only to 1 thing (and/or are a sign of):
    A persons lack of understanding how this games itemization works as well as: will result in significant disappointment when the results, once ascended gear is acquired, do not match the expectations.

    Are you talking about the person I'm responding to who's saying you should be doing t4 fractals before raiding? I never mentioned ascended gear. Even a new player, coming in with nothing, is going to take a while to even get a good exotic set together that isn't the default set handed you from a boosted toon. 30-50g per profession doesn't look like much for leveling, but it's harder to come by without professions to do the conversions. IN other games PVE progression is pretty much hopping from one piece of content to the next, no crafting in between. I'm not saying GW2's approach is bad, but I'm just saying it takes more effort.

    A full set of berserker gear costs around 20g on the TP. If the player did not boost, then the monthly rewards alone in Mystic Coins would easily cover that expense, not to mention the dailies. Add in Runes and Sigils, potentially going for cheaper not meta ones (like Eagle over Scholar) and you can shave off another dozen of gold in gearing after the inital investment into gear.

    Sounds like a super robust system, implicitly expecting players to pick up a single role and using professions with the cheapest armor set. Nothing bad could happen in that world. I don't have the time to fact check you, but my hunch, is that this is a cloth set.

    Heavy: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Devona's_armor
    Total cost for the armor: 5.96 gold buy order/8.6 gold instant buy

    Not sure what heavy versus light has to do with anything. If at all, light is even more expensive (but also not far above 11 gold for an entire armor set). Now factor in for weapons (2-3 gold each instant buy, tops) and trinkets, and you get around 20 gold for a full exotic berserker setup. Maybe a bit more if you have to instant buy everything on the spot.

    EDIT: and before it comes up, the equivalent sets for medium and light are Nika's (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nika's_armor) and Zhed's (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zhed's_armor) respectively. They will all show up if one uses the TP sort options at the top for power/precision/ferocity exotic gear.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    all fractal players make fg long time ago. And this is not super motivated argument, this is only side effect from dayli runs.

    about split light and hard - if I can't complete achivment on light mode - there is no any point to start that at all.
    This is only my vision, but I am sure I am not only one about raids..

    yes, we can make diferect hard mode, and chill.
    From chill remove any gold reward, in hard make it 20%+ harde and give 2g from each boss.

    So for example my: I don't go to reaids, but like Grot strike mission. If someone make nerfed raids, but still close all ahivs for me no any reason go there ..

    But as for me there is no any problem that someone don't farm raids. There is al lot off other content.

    in my gw2 on wvw to much people .. And I don't like it also. Toaday will be 100+ quene on ebg then I come home ..
    Or we play different games?

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Didn't you receive an Ascended Weapon of your choice from the HoT story? Trinkets are easy enough if you spend a few hours farming map currencies. That't something you will end up doing no matter if you are going to raid or not. Meaning all you should require at first is a set of exotic gear and a second weapon or two which is/are dirt cheap. Gold is sooo much easier to come by plus exotic Berserker's costing somewhere between 1/5 to 1/10 of what we used to pay for it back when we only had exotics and anyone only ever used Berserker.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein