Jump to content
  • Sign Up

[PvP Build] Dagger/Dagger Spellbreaker


Zexanima.7851

Recommended Posts

The build ---> Heals make right

Pros

  • Lots of passive healing (Healing signet + might makes right + Adrenal health + Sun and moon style)
  • Decent condi management (Cleansing Ire + Shake it off!)
  • A good deal of burst damage through the use of Wastrel's Ruin and burst skill chaining.

Cons

  • Slow, no warrior's sprint. You'll have to use GS for movement and Signet of Rage for swiftness
  • No fast hands. This takes getting use to.

Variants:

Imortal tank variant - You lose some damage but have a hell of a lot of sustain. The passive heals are nuts.Condi hate variant - You lose a lot of damage but condi can't touch you.

Playstyle

Stay in dagger as long as possible. Only swap to GS when you need to kite, cleave, or finish a kill. You want to open with Bladestorm for some extra vuln then interrupt your target with fullcounter or Disrupting Stab then follow up with Wastrel's Ruin. At high might stacks and landing some good vuln I've had this land up to 10k+ with WR. If your opponent is still alive after that swap GS and do the usual combos. Depending on how confident you are on being able to void stuns, I swap frenzy for break enchantments. Striping stab/prot/resist can really screw someone over plus its AoE and it cant be blocked. Great for team fights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Tycura.1982 said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Tycura.1982 said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

I know, im one of them, for years.Everytime i talk to ppl and show them a non metabuild they start screeching at me, shouting that im not using disci, hysterically pressing their hands at their ears. Calling for someone to exorcise me, for doing such a blasphemous thing.

I do use disci in duelbuilds, because i havent found a non fast hands build that was able to pressure my opponent hard enough to actually kill them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Tycura.1982 said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

I know, im one of them, for years.Everytime i talk to ppl and show them a non metabuild they start screeching at me, shouting that im not using disci, hysterically pressing their hands at their ears. Calling for someone to exorcise me, for doing such a blasphemous thing.

I do use disci in duelbuilds, because i havent found a non fast hands build that was able to pressure my opponent hard enough to actually kill them.

People do the same thing when I say I don't run Defense, so I hear you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

I know, im one of them, for years.Everytime i talk to ppl and show them a non metabuild they start screeching at me, shouting that im not using disci, hysterically pressing their hands at their ears. Calling for someone to exorcise me, for doing such a blasphemous thing.

I do use disci in duelbuilds, because i havent found a non fast hands build that was able to pressure my opponent hard enough to actually kill them.

People do the same thing when I say I don't run Defense, so I hear you.

My newest zerg build isnt running defense nor disci and im still standing longer than most other warriors, while providing bubble as usual.

Probably gonna make a post about it, when i have the time for it. Im having alot of fun playing it. I also probably have to post a disclaimer with it, that everybody who screeches "MUH METABUILD" should stop reading right there and then lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RedShark.9548 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

I know, im one of them, for years.Everytime i talk to ppl and show them a non metabuild they start screeching at me, shouting that im not using disci, hysterically pressing their hands at their ears. Calling for someone to exorcise me, for doing such a blasphemous thing.

I do use disci in duelbuilds, because i havent found a non fast hands build that was able to pressure my opponent hard enough to actually kill them.

People do the same thing when I say I don't run Defense, so I hear you.

My newest zerg build isnt running defense nor disci and im still standing longer than most other warriors, while providing bubble as usual.

Probably gonna make a post about it, when i have the time for it. Im having alot of fun playing it. I also probably have to post a disclaimer with it, that everybody who screeches "MUH METABUILD" should stop reading right there and then lol

Much like playing without Fast Hands, playing without DP and LS takes getting used to. They're there if you need them, but if you are fine without then optimize elsewhere. I'd like to see your new variation on your worker build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

doesnt matter, zerg fight u essentially don't need a lot of things, u just need to stay alive and press damage and fights are way less fast paced.unless there's certain mechanics that's so valuable in huge scale fight, u basically always take all the sustain linewhich is not the same with fast hand in pvp, since pvp relies more on personal performance, it's more utility based and is so much more fast paces then just simply staying alive and press CC skills.

defense used to be meta because warrior was unplayable without it, and people questioning the ones who don't use defense obviously has more knowledge about the gamein pvp ofc.

warrior dropped defense, not because warrior always could run without defense, but because balance changed and meta shifts.if you can't realize what's good and what's not within 2 weeks(being generous) after balance update defines your ranking in the game.you can't really compare pvp builds to wvw builds, because zergs builds doesn't look at personal performance as much as pvp builds.

fast hand was never essential in zergs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

lol.

Lets rephrase this then. Take Thief for example. They have Steal as a mechanic, which is both a shadowstep and gives access to stolen skills. They also have initiative, which only they get which allows certain weapon skills to be used in rapid succession, but is not locked behind a trait line.

Warrior gets bursts attacks that take adrenaline to build and use (honestly its a stupid holdover from GW1 but whatever). They also get access to much shorter weapon CDs which only then can get, but it is locked behind a trait line.

Now I know that comparing class mechanics to each other is apples to oranges if debating the mechanics themselves, but here the discussion is based around the access to the mechanics which is fair game for discussing and comparing.

(I'm pretty sure we're going to not agree on this one, and that is fine).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

lol.

Lets rephrase this then. Take Thief for example. They have Steal as a mechanic, which is both a shadowstep and gives access to stolen skills. They also have initiative, which only they get which allows certain weapon skills to be used in rapid succession, but is not locked behind a trait line.

If you want to compare steal/initiative to anything, it would probably be adrenaline/burst skills. Weapon swap isn't warrior's exclusive mechanic.

Warrior gets bursts attacks that take adrenaline to build and use (honestly its a stupid holdover from GW1 but whatever). They also get access to much shorter weapon CDs which only then can get, but it is locked behind a trait line.

So sticking to a thief example -any trait that manipulates initiative or steal should automatically be baseline, because it's thief exclusive. That still makes no sense to me at all. And, again, weapon swap isn't warrior exclusive mechanic, having a trait that manipulates it doesn't change that fact in the slightest. And EVEN if it was a warrior exlusive mechanic (it's not), it by no means makes it a valid reason to make traits that affect that mechanic "baseline". By that logic half of thief's traits should be made baseline. In fact, anything that affects adrenaline/burst skills would need to be made baseline. To me that's just weird to use as an argument to suddenly make a trait into an inherent class passive.

Now I know that comparing class mechanics to each other is apples to oranges if debating the mechanics themselves, but here the discussion is based around the access to the mechanics which is fair game for discussing and comparing.

I think I didn't mention it before so... weapon swap isn't warrior's class mechanic. :D

(I'm pretty sure we're going to not agree on this one, and that is fine).

Yes. :p

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

lol.

Lets rephrase this then. Take Thief for example. They have Steal as a mechanic, which is both a shadowstep and gives access to stolen skills. They also have initiative, which only they get which allows certain weapon skills to be used in rapid succession, but is not locked behind a trait line.

If you want to compare steal/initiative to anything, it would probably be adrenaline/burst skills. Weapon swap isn't warrior's exclusive mechanic.

Warrior gets bursts attacks that take adrenaline to build and use (honestly its a stupid holdover from GW1 but whatever). They also get access to much shorter weapon CDs which only then can get, but it is locked behind a trait line.

So sticking to a thief example -any trait that manipulates initiative or steal should automatically be baseline, because it's thief exclusive. That still makes no sense to me at all. And, again, weapon swap isn't warrior exclusive mechanic, having a trait that manipulates it doesn't change that fact in the slightest. And EVEN if it was a warrior exlusive mechanic (it's not), it by no means makes it a valid reason to make traits that affect that mechanic "baseline". By that logic half of thief's traits should be made baseline. In fact, anything that affects adrenaline/burst skills would need to be made baseline. To me that's just weird to use as an argument to suddenly make a trait into an inherent class passive.

Now I know that comparing class mechanics to each other is apples to oranges if debating the mechanics themselves, but here the discussion is based around the access to the mechanics which is fair game for discussing and comparing.

I think I didn't mention it before so... weapon swap isn't warrior's class mechanic. :D

(I'm pretty sure we're going to not agree on this one, and that is fine).

Yes. :p

Note that I referred to the greatly reduced weapon swap CD, not weapon swap in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

lol.

Lets rephrase this then. Take Thief for example. They have Steal as a mechanic, which is both a shadowstep and gives access to stolen skills. They also have initiative, which only they get which allows certain weapon skills to be used in rapid succession, but is not locked behind a trait line.

If you want to compare steal/initiative to anything, it would probably be adrenaline/burst skills. Weapon swap isn't warrior's exclusive mechanic.

Warrior gets bursts attacks that take adrenaline to build and use (honestly its a stupid holdover from GW1 but whatever). They also get access to much shorter weapon CDs which only then can get, but it is locked behind a trait line.

So sticking to a thief example -any trait that manipulates initiative or steal should automatically be baseline, because it's thief exclusive. That still makes no sense to me at all. And, again, weapon swap isn't warrior exclusive mechanic, having a trait that manipulates it doesn't change that fact in the slightest. And EVEN if it was a warrior exlusive mechanic (it's not), it by no means makes it a valid reason to make traits that affect that mechanic "baseline". By that logic half of thief's traits should be made baseline. In fact, anything that affects adrenaline/burst skills would need to be made baseline. To me that's just weird to use as an argument to suddenly make a trait into an inherent class passive.

Now I know that comparing class mechanics to each other is apples to oranges if debating the mechanics themselves, but here the discussion is based around the access to the mechanics which is fair game for discussing and comparing.

I think I didn't mention it before so... weapon swap isn't warrior's class mechanic. :D

(I'm pretty sure we're going to not agree on this one, and that is fine).

Yes. :p

Note that I referred to the greatly reduced weapon swap CD, not weapon swap in general.

Yes. To which I said that a class-exclusive trait doesn't make it a valid reason to make it baseline (because by that logic a lot of the traits would be up for changing into inherent class passives). To which you compared it to class mechanic. To which I answered weapon swap isn't a class mechanic. I think that's pretty much how it went? So I still don't see how that argument was supposed to be valid.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

lol.

Lets rephrase this then. Take Thief for example. They have Steal as a mechanic, which is both a shadowstep and gives access to stolen skills. They also have initiative, which only they get which allows certain weapon skills to be used in rapid succession, but is not locked behind a trait line.

If you want to compare steal/initiative to anything, it would probably be adrenaline/burst skills. Weapon swap isn't warrior's exclusive mechanic.

Warrior gets bursts attacks that take adrenaline to build and use (honestly its a stupid holdover from GW1 but whatever). They also get access to much shorter weapon CDs which only then can get, but it is locked behind a trait line.

So sticking to a thief example -any trait that manipulates initiative or steal should automatically be baseline, because it's thief exclusive. That still makes no sense to me at all. And, again, weapon swap isn't warrior exclusive mechanic, having a trait that manipulates it doesn't change that fact in the slightest. And EVEN if it was a warrior exlusive mechanic (it's not), it by no means makes it a valid reason to make traits that affect that mechanic "baseline". By that logic half of thief's traits should be made baseline. In fact, anything that affects adrenaline/burst skills would need to be made baseline. To me that's just weird to use as an argument to suddenly make a trait into an inherent class passive.

Now I know that comparing class mechanics to each other is apples to oranges if debating the mechanics themselves, but here the discussion is based around the access to the mechanics which is fair game for discussing and comparing.

I think I didn't mention it before so... weapon swap isn't warrior's class mechanic. :D

(I'm pretty sure we're going to not agree on this one, and that is fine).

Yes. :p

Note that I referred to the greatly reduced weapon swap CD, not weapon swap in general.

Yes. To which I said that a class-exclusive trait doesn't make it a valid reason to make it baseline (because by that logic a lot of the triats would be up for changing into inherent class passives). To which you compared it to class mechanic. To which I answered weapon swap isn't a class mechanic. I think that's pretty much how it went? So I still don't see how that argument was supposed to be valid.

I've argued this over and over. Most class mechanics have several aspects to them.

Warrior: 2 Burst skillsGuardian: 3 virtues with both active and passive effectsRev: 2 Legends with energy systemThief: Steal + initiative systemRanger: Two pets and pet skillsEngineer: 5 toolbelt skillsMesmer: Clones/Phantasms + ShattersElementalist: 4 different attunementsNecromancer: Shroud with lifeforce and 5 extra skills

Comparing these warrior has the simplest class mechanic with only the two extra weapon skills. Yes, fasthands isn't a class mechanic but it should be. I think making it baseline though we would then have to have weapon swap and burst cool-downs tied together so you have to make the choice of "Do I swap weapons or use my burst?". It wouldn't be a straight up buff this way. The passive is just such an instrumental part of warrior play it feels like you're missing part of your profession without it. Can you play without it? Yes, but it just doesn't feel good/right. If you don't think it is a big part of the profession, you probably haven't put hundreds of hours on warrior. Imagine if ranger had to trait to have two pets instead of one or if thief had to trait to have initiative instead of cooldowns. That's what it's like with warrior and fasthands. I'm not against taking some kind of nerf in exchange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

lol.

Lets rephrase this then. Take Thief for example. They have Steal as a mechanic, which is both a shadowstep and gives access to stolen skills. They also have initiative, which only they get which allows certain weapon skills to be used in rapid succession, but is not locked behind a trait line.

If you want to compare steal/initiative to anything, it would probably be adrenaline/burst skills. Weapon swap isn't warrior's exclusive mechanic.

Warrior gets bursts attacks that take adrenaline to build and use (honestly its a stupid holdover from GW1 but whatever). They also get access to much shorter weapon CDs which only then can get, but it is locked behind a trait line.

So sticking to a thief example -any trait that manipulates initiative or steal should automatically be baseline, because it's thief exclusive. That still makes no sense to me at all. And, again, weapon swap isn't warrior exclusive mechanic, having a trait that manipulates it doesn't change that fact in the slightest. And EVEN if it was a warrior exlusive mechanic (it's not), it by no means makes it a valid reason to make traits that affect that mechanic "baseline". By that logic half of thief's traits should be made baseline. In fact, anything that affects adrenaline/burst skills would need to be made baseline. To me that's just weird to use as an argument to suddenly make a trait into an inherent class passive.

Now I know that comparing class mechanics to each other is apples to oranges if debating the mechanics themselves, but here the discussion is based around the access to the mechanics which is fair game for discussing and comparing.

I think I didn't mention it before so... weapon swap isn't warrior's class mechanic. :D

(I'm pretty sure we're going to not agree on this one, and that is fine).

Yes. :p

Note that I referred to the greatly reduced weapon swap CD, not weapon swap in general.

Yes. To which I said that a class-exclusive trait doesn't make it a valid reason to make it baseline (because by that logic a lot of the triats would be up for changing into inherent class passives). To which you compared it to class mechanic. To which I answered weapon swap isn't a class mechanic. I think that's pretty much how it went? So I still don't see how that argument was supposed to be valid.

I've argued this over and over. Most class mechanics have several aspects to them.

Warrior: 2 Burst skillsGuardian: 3 virtues with both active and passive effectsRev: 2 Legends with energy systemThief: Steal + initiative systemRanger: Two pets and pet skillsEngineer: 5 toolbelt skillsMesmer: Clones/Phantasms + ShattersElementalist: 4 different attunementsNecromancer: Shroud with lifeforce and 5 extra skills

Comparing these warrior has the simplest class mechanic with only the two extra weapon skills.

I don't see how the number of "whatever you want it to be" matters here. Class mechanic is a class mechanic. Honestly it's kind of funny how you're trying to change the way you count each value just to fit your agenda. "4 attunements", "3 virtues", "shroud with extra skills" (which warrior pretty much also has by slotting a well known elite skill) is still one mechanic, but apparently by your logic we should count each unique weapon's burst skill as a seperate one so we can stretch out single mechanic to multiple, based on the number of keys that can be pressed. But in the end the number of keys you can press is virtually irrelevant in what the class mechanic does and how it's valued.Also for warrior the mechanic isn't "2 burst skills", it's "burst skills" and "adrenaline".

Yes, fasthands isn't a class mechanic but it should be.

No, there's no reason to pretend that FH is/should be "a new mechanic" and made baseline for the reason/s I've already stated multiple times in the previous posts in this thread.

I think making it baseline though we would then have to have weapon swap and burst cool-downs tied together so you have to make the choice of "Do I swap weapons or use my burst?". It wouldn't be a straight up buff this way.

I'm suspecting your proposed cooldown would be irrelevant, but who knows what you really mean here.

The passive is just such an instrumental part of warrior play it feels like you're missing part of your profession without it. Can you play without it? Yes, but it just doesn't feel good/right.

It's "instrumental part of warrior play", because weapon swap is literally giving the class a second -weapon reliant- skillbar. You'd give FH to any other class with weapon swaps and it would feel just as reliant. It "feels bad to play without" for LITERALLY the same reason -because it's just so strong and convenient and it would be the same for any other class. How is this not blatantly obvious for some people still blows my mind.As I said: the ACTUAL reason you want that as a class passive is

because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:

.

If you don't think it is a big part of the profession, you probably haven't put hundreds of hours on warrior.

Yeeeaaaah, sure. As I said "it's a big part of the profession" because of how weapon swap works in this game, not some magical warrior-specific playstyle.

Imagine if ranger had to trait to have two pets instead of one or if thief had to trait to have initiative instead of cooldowns. That's what it's like with warrior and fasthands. I'm not against taking some kind of nerf in exchange.

It's hilarious that you think your examples are equal to weapon swap cd reduction, where weapon swap is already available for other classes as well. But they're not equal. Literally not even close and if you don't understand that, maybe stop with your condescending "you didn't put enough time into warrior" comments, because that's just embarrassing.


e: spelling

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

lol.

Lets rephrase this then. Take Thief for example. They have Steal as a mechanic, which is both a shadowstep and gives access to stolen skills. They also have initiative, which only they get which allows certain weapon skills to be used in rapid succession, but is not locked behind a trait line.

If you want to compare steal/initiative to anything, it would probably be adrenaline/burst skills. Weapon swap isn't warrior's exclusive mechanic.

Warrior gets bursts attacks that take adrenaline to build and use (honestly its a stupid holdover from GW1 but whatever). They also get access to much shorter weapon CDs which only then can get, but it is locked behind a trait line.

So sticking to a thief example -any trait that manipulates initiative or steal should automatically be baseline, because it's thief exclusive. That still makes no sense to me at all. And, again, weapon swap isn't warrior exclusive mechanic, having a trait that manipulates it doesn't change that fact in the slightest. And EVEN if it was a warrior exlusive mechanic (it's not), it by no means makes it a valid reason to make traits that affect that mechanic "baseline". By that logic half of thief's traits should be made baseline. In fact, anything that affects adrenaline/burst skills would need to be made baseline. To me that's just weird to use as an argument to suddenly make a trait into an inherent class passive.

Now I know that comparing class mechanics to each other is apples to oranges if debating the mechanics themselves, but here the discussion is based around the access to the mechanics which is fair game for discussing and comparing.

I think I didn't mention it before so... weapon swap isn't warrior's class mechanic. :D

(I'm pretty sure we're going to not agree on this one, and that is fine).

Yes. :p

Note that I referred to the greatly reduced weapon swap CD, not weapon swap in general.

Would comparing the new addition of ele and engi weapon swap as its concerning the swap everyone has. Is fast hands being a trait akin to if ele and engi now having weapon swap out of combat as a trait instead of a base option?Maybe it's not just spitballing lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:No discipline makes me a sad boy

My zergbuild isnt running disci. Its weird at the beginning, but you get used to, atleast in zergfights you always have enough to do with resetting f1 with fc.

In duels and spvp in general i could see a bigger problem without disci. Build looks interesting tho.

This is part of why people have been wanting baseline fast hands...

...but the actual reason is because it's stupidly strong and people don't want to make choices, so just give me literally one of the strongest traits in the game as "baseline", so I can get it without losing out on other traits/traitlines. :sleeping:I still don't understand how people think that something should be baseline because it's so strong that it gets consistently picked over other things. That's not how it should work at all.

It's more that only Warrior has it, so why is it locked behind a trait line.

...isn't that true for majority of traits in this game? So by that logic we shouldn't have class specific traitlines/traits/builds and just unlock everything at the same time, because it's class reliant.

That's a slippery slope argument my friend.

Your argument is indeed a slipper slope and I really don't think it made a lot of sense :p(tbh I didn't know how to make this response not sound like "no u" :< )

lol.

Lets rephrase this then. Take Thief for example. They have Steal as a mechanic, which is both a shadowstep and gives access to stolen skills. They also have initiative, which only they get which allows certain weapon skills to be used in rapid succession, but is not locked behind a trait line.

If you want to compare steal/initiative to anything, it would probably be adrenaline/burst skills. Weapon swap isn't warrior's exclusive mechanic.

Warrior gets bursts attacks that take adrenaline to build and use (honestly its a stupid holdover from GW1 but whatever). They also get access to much shorter weapon CDs which only then can get, but it is locked behind a trait line.

So sticking to a thief example -any trait that manipulates initiative or steal should automatically be baseline, because it's thief exclusive. That still makes no sense to me at all. And, again, weapon swap isn't warrior exclusive mechanic, having a trait that manipulates it doesn't change that fact in the slightest. And EVEN if it was a warrior exlusive mechanic (it's not), it by no means makes it a valid reason to make traits that affect that mechanic "baseline". By that logic half of thief's traits should be made baseline. In fact, anything that affects adrenaline/burst skills would need to be made baseline. To me that's just weird to use as an argument to suddenly make a trait into an inherent class passive.

Now I know that comparing class mechanics to each other is apples to oranges if debating the mechanics themselves, but here the discussion is based around the access to the mechanics which is fair game for discussing and comparing.

I think I didn't mention it before so... weapon swap isn't warrior's class mechanic. :D

(I'm pretty sure we're going to not agree on this one, and that is fine).

Yes. :p

Note that I referred to the greatly reduced weapon swap CD, not weapon swap in general.

Would comparing the new addition of ele and engi weapon swap as its concerning the swap everyone has. Is fast hands being a trait akin to if ele and engi now having weapon swap out of combat as a trait instead of a base option?Maybe it's not just spitballing lol

Two completely different things. FH would affect in-combat play by reducing the cd of warriors weapon swap from 9 to 5 seconds. It's been discussed since the game came out basically and any avid warrior player can agree that it should be baseline. Of course the counter argument is "If fast hands is so strong that it almost always requires you to take the trait line just for that sill, then fast hands should be nerfed not made baseline." That's valid but it would also make warrior a lot clunkier to play. It would be like ranger is quickness. The have way too much quickness right now but if you removed it all completely they would feel super sluggish to play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[answer to now deleted post]I'm not trolling and pretty sure I didn't call you any names. Not sure why you're getting defensive when all I did was answer to your whole post line (or paragraph) after line.What "constructive" am I supposed to offer here? FH is obviously strong (which I already wrote before), but it's also obviously not a "warrior mechanic" and for now there's not a single real reason to make it as a baseline warrior passive other than just "OMG BUFF MY CLASS I WANT THESE TRAITS 24/7 WHILE ALSO BEING ABLE TO PICK DIFFERENT ONES!!!1".In fact, if you don't plan to take disci (which is the whole point here, right?), you don't have any more of a playstyle compatibility (or whatever you want to call it) with that reduced recharge than any other profession with in-combat weapon swap available.

From where I'm sitting it looks the reason you refuse to answer is because you know you have nothing to say here, so it's easier to play a victim when you're not one. For some reason you think that if you "propose a buff", the only way to go about it is to agree with you and maybe settle for a "smaller buff". That's not always the case in discussions, but apparently someone disagreeing with you is offensive all of the sudden.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...