How to do boneskinner? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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How to do boneskinner?

The amount of damage all the squads I've run have taken is insane. We've ran as much as 2-3 healers with people trying to keep torches lit and we all die. I'm super pissed too because it used to be really easy, so it makes people not try to figure it out again & strategy discussions that much harder because they still remember the December tank and spank. How have you successfully pugged this? What were you running?

<13

Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2020

    You either do the following:

    • Keep every torch lit and break its defiance bar every time
    • Stack on the boss with 3ish healers, move together to keep AoE’s from being spread, ignore torches

    The first option is pretty much impractical with pugs as there’s a severe player skill issue in this game.

    Having a heal scourge and heal renegade as two of the healers has been very helpful in my experience with pug groups.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Command a squad of ten with a proper squad composition like: 1 druid, 1 heal, 1 bs, 2 chronos and 5 dps. After this tell the squad to skip torches and stack on the tag, stacking is really important as that way the AOEs that stays on the ground are not all over the arena but instead in one place(never stack in front of the boss!), also tell the squad to dodge AOEs clockwise everytime(that way there is always clean spot to stand). CC fast when breakbar is up.
    When boneskinner jumps off from the middle, both sub groups should get aegis or barrier for his jump attack, dodge works too. After that just repeat.

    For the squad composition, it can be also ala rene and quickbrands and 3rd healer if needed.

    EDIT: scourge heal works well here as it can pull downed players away from AOEs where it would be otherwise almost impossible to rez them. Boss also spawns mobs around him, classes that can use pull skills without losing too much dmg should pull those mobs inside the stack for cleave dmg. Projectile blocks/reflects or necromancer epidemic can also be helpful against these mobs.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2020

    I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers, so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers, so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

    If you are EU i can help with boneskinner.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers,

    No one has every said that gear is an issue with raids. No one worth their salt or their right mind. There is literally budget builds on youtube as old as early HoT. The most common mention is always: get zerker gear or magi gear, both of which are very cheap on the TP.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

    Requiring a certain group composition or players full-filling certain roles is at the very core of raiding. This does require players being flexible and willing to take on those responsibilities.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers,

    No one has every said that gear is an issue with raids. No one worth their salt or their right mind. There is literally budget builds on youtube as old as early HoT. The most common mention is always: get zerker gear or magi gear, both of which are very cheap on the TP.

    I have already proven to you in previous discussions this isn't the case. There you go, insulting me again "no one worth their salt or right mind" I seriously don't know how you aren't banned from these forums with your comments like this when I clearly stated that's what I believed. Personal attacks are supposed to be agaisnt the rules. Does Anet hold you up for some reason? Are you an employee? Or are you a moderator? Or their friend?

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

    Requiring a certain group composition or players full-filling certain roles is at the very core of raiding. This does require players being flexible and willing to take on those responsibilities.

    Okay sure, let's require people who are raid training using strikes in new accounts to be able to pull multiple roles out of their butts with no preparation given from the content itself. Sounds about right.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers,

    No one has every said that gear is an issue with raids. No one worth their salt or their right mind. There is literally budget builds on youtube as old as early HoT. The most common mention is always: get zerker gear or magi gear, both of which are very cheap on the TP.

    I have already proven to you in previous discussions this isn't the case. There you go, insulting me again "no one worth their salt or right mind" I seriously don't know how you aren't banned from these forums with your comments like this.

    No experienced raider has every said it's about the gear. I don;t care what inexperienced people have been saying. I will repeat, there is literally budget builds which are years old, here a fast search on youtube: literally a 40 gold budget build for the MOST expensive class (chrono back then, this video is 3+ years old).

    Yes, sometimes people experienced with the content have been correct.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

    Requiring a certain group composition or players full-filling certain roles is at the very core of raiding. This does require players being flexible and willing to take on those responsibilities.

    Okay sure, let's require people who are raiding to be able to pull multiple roles out of their butts with no preparation given from the content itself. Sounds about right.

    That's what the content is for right? To tell people that someone has to do certain mechanics. The mechanics are easy enough in strikes. Or how do you propose people develop those skills?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

    Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    Okay sure, let's require people who are raiding to be able to pull multiple roles out of their butts with no preparation given from the content itself. Sounds about right.

    That's what the content is for right? To tell people that someone has to do certain mechanics. The mechanics are easy enough in strikes. Or how do you propose people develop those skills?

    People previously in the thread stated the mechanics aren't doable with a PuG and chessing it is easier. You obviously just came here to troll me.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

    Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

    Boon duration was harder to acquire than concentration, and it was necessary more than conc now, just saying. But keep fishing. Also there are budget builds for exotic druid builds which do not use harrier. It's not the gear which will hold you back, or decide your performance.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

    Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

    Boon duration was harder to acquire than concentration, and it was necessary more than conc now, just saying. But keep fishing. Also there are budget builds for exotic druid builds which do not use harrier. It's not the gear which will hold you back, or decide your performance.

    but if I can only fill one role and we need at least 2-3 players to fill different roles and the player base isn't being prepared through the content to do that, then that's not fishing. It's a broken experience. I do fine in the roles I choose, but yeah it will be a long time before I can even piece together an alacrigade healer for this and by then people will probably just do the next strike. Haven't bought a character slot for druid yet.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

    Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

    Boon duration was harder to acquire than concentration, and it was necessary more than conc now, just saying. But keep fishing. Also there are budget builds for exotic druid builds which do not use harrier. It's not the gear which will hold you back, or decide your performance.

    but if I can only fill one role and we need at least 2-3 players to fill different roles and the player base isn't being prepared through the content to do that, then that's not fishing.

    Oh I agree, the player base is not being prepared (unless they've been running fractals). That's what strikes are now for, to show people and encourage everyone who has not been participating in structured group content to broaden their horizon and try new builds. Strikes are literally meant to teach players rudimentary mechanics and basic roles for group content.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    It's a broken experience. I do fine in the roles I choose, but yeah it will be a long time before I can even piece together an alacrigade healer for this and by then people will probably just do the next strike. Haven't bought a character slot for druid yet.

    Remember that the change to items and select-able stats now makes certain stat combinations available from stat select-able exotics. Harrier is now available from Bladed armor pieces for example (Verdant Brink Armor), which are very easy to acquire in HoT. As well as other exotics from many other places. The same goes for trinkets (which can then be ascended even from both LWS3 and 4). Otherwise supplement with Magi's (for healing) and some Giver's (for healing and concentration) until you have a full set.

    EDIT:
    but before you go off spending gold and time on new gear. That is one of the organizational aspects. You aren't required to full-fill every role. Stay dps, but make friends with 1-2 players who are able and willing to play support classes. Or ask in squad if anyone can switch to one of said classes. All it takes is someone to take initiative and get things going. That's the beauty of group content.

  • Instead of just shooting down people giving you the information that you need to succeed, let us know what you are working with (classes) and i'm sure someone will post a budget build that wpuld help you carry dps through.

    Best classes that can carry are, Necro, Guardian, Ren, ele and engi (left off ranger as you said you don't have one.)

    Each one of those classes can stack magi gear with a heal build and just carry with raw hps. Strikes are not at the point where you need 100% boon uptime to compleate, hell raids aren't even in a spot where you need 100% uptime to compleate.

    Boon uptime is only important for speed clears and maximising dps (faster kills do make the encounter easier as you will see less mechanics but not required to finish it)

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers, so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

    You are undergoing the misunderstanding that raids are the step after being level 80. It is recommended to play fractals before starting raids. Is it doable without fractals? Of course but without any proper knowledge of instanced content and a little bit of understanding the gear part it's hard to jump into raiding. Once you start with fractals you'll soon be able to gear several characters with asc gears because you'll get gold + a good chance of ascended chests. The more you step up in levels the easier it'll be to gear additional toons.

    One additional note: Gearing isn't expensive as long as you don't begin with the important things like support classes and want them to be geared 100% perfectly. As it was stated above magi gear is enough for a healer. You don't need perfect stats because the players you are facing at start aren't perfect neither. So, take an easy dps class or a warrior and get zerker gear. Or take a magi healer but with such people will call you out if you don't know how to play properly and keep your group alive.
    Starting with alacrigade or anything related isn't an intelligent way if one has barely any clue about challenging instanced group content and proper group/squad setup. Learn first, master later!

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

    Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

    Boon duration was harder to acquire than concentration, and it was necessary more than conc now, just saying. But keep fishing. Also there are budget builds for exotic druid builds which do not use harrier. It's not the gear which will hold you back, or decide your performance.

    but if I can only fill one role and we need at least 2-3 players to fill different roles and the player base isn't being prepared through the content to do that, then that's not fishing.

    Oh I agree, the player base is not being prepared (unless they've been running fractals). That's what strikes are now for, to show people and encourage everyone who has not been participating in structured group content to broaden their horizon and try new builds. Strikes are literally meant to teach players rudimentary mechanics and basic roles for group content.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    It's a broken experience. I do fine in the roles I choose, but yeah it will be a long time before I can even piece together an alacrigade healer for this and by then people will probably just do the next strike. Haven't bought a character slot for druid yet.

    Remember that the change to items and select-able stats now makes certain stat combinations available from stat select-able exotics. Harrier is now available from Bladed armor pieces for example (Verdant Brink Armor), which are very easy to acquire in HoT. As well as other exotics from many other places. The same goes for trinkets (which can then be ascended even from both LWS3 and 4). Otherwise supplement with Magi's (for healing) and some Giver's (for healing and concentration) until you have a full set.

    EDIT:
    but before you go off spending gold and time on new gear. That is one of the organizational aspects. You aren't required to full-fill every role. Stay dps, but make friends with 1-2 players who are able and willing to play support classes. Or ask in squad if anyone can switch to one of said classes. All it takes is someone to take initiative and get things going. That's the beauty of group content.

    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    EDIT: I will say in fairness that BJora marches and the Grothmar strike are great for getting selectable stat ascended trinkets (which I'm using them for), but my gripe still remains that most the eternal ice in Bjora you get isn't from the strikes and most of those trinkets are from LWS4 -> something that newer players wouldn't have. It's not good to put barriers to entry in the face of newer players when they're just exploring the game for the first time and in a box icebrood saga isn't doing much for helping people get ready for raiding. Even the neck from the vendor is going to get annoying once enough people aren't in Bjora any more for the boneskinner part of the vendor unlock. The zeitgeist aspect of this game can be very punishing.

  • I agree that the gearing aspect of this game is a bit backwards, and strikes have had the complaint that the loot isn't that rewarding.

    But they where introduced to get people involved in 10 man content, to learn what an effective 10 man squad looked like and how to handle some mechanics that could apear in raids.

    The stratagey of ignoring mechanics and just stack healers can be true for some raid bosses as well. VG comes to mind as the enrage timer is pretty loose and one of the mechanics (greens) are litterally healed through for most groups.

  • Aaralyna.3104Aaralyna.3104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is possible to pug strikes including the boneskinner (I've done so myself). I have never done fractals above t2, I have done 1 raid (the escort one). I got exotic berserker gear on my dps char with ascended backitem and trinkets (easy to get from living world season 3, now also from season 4, backpack possible via collections as well). Weapon is possible to get ascended via collection (Caladbolgh) or elite spec collections. I spent more time and gold getting my griffon mount. So to say none of this is possible is wrong.... Now strikes, especially boneskinner which was said would be the most difficult one we will get in terms of difficulty level does need you to organise a team (even with pugs). This means you will have to treat it like it is a raid. So you collect a group of players willing to perform several roles of heal, support like alacrity and boons, dps,... If you have never done instanced group content before, I would advise to try out dungeons and fractals first (however the Grothmar strike is easier so this one can be done from scratch). Keep in mind that raids are the hardcore instanced group content in guild wars 2 and that strikes are there to teach you raids (they are basically mini raids). It does not mean that you will never be able to get the achievement or are never allowed to join. Just join a lfg when you are confident enough with your char and know gameplay mechanics like positioning, cc, dodge,... If you are new to said content, just mention it when you join and before the fight starts. Then everyone knows what to expect, where to guide/help and you will be less stressed in case you might fail. And you know what to expect as well :). Also keep an eye if they ask specific roles... If you play dps chronomancer in example, mention upfront youre a dps so the others don't assume you are there to support (to prevent misunderstandings). If you can adapt to support role when asked for thats good but if you don't know how to its safer to say you can't pull that off yet.

    I think the gearing order in game is not wrong, as chronologically one would play personal story (you get exotic lvl 80 gear here), hot (this gives some ascended items), lws3 (ascended backitem and trinkets), pof (this gives some ascended items), lws4 (ascended backitem and trinkets), and then icebrood saga. The only thing is that there are players that skip all that and go from starter zone to icebrood saga directly. (And a couple never bought living worlds they did not get for free). So I just tend to help new players get set in at least exotic gears and lead them the way to get ascended trinkets and backitem. F2P players have no access to icebrood saga so they don't have raids and strikes. They can get ascended items via fractals however.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    EDIT: I will say in fairness that BJora marches and the Grothmar strike are great for getting selectable stat ascended trinkets (which I'm using them for), but my gripe still remains that most the eternal ice in Bjora you get isn't from the strikes and most of those trinkets are from LWS4 -> something that newer players wouldn't have. It's not good to put barriers to entry in the face of newer players when they're just exploring the game for the first time and in a box icebrood saga isn't doing much for helping people get ready for raiding. Even the neck from the vendor is going to get annoying once enough people aren't in Bjora any more for the boneskinner part of the vendor unlock. The zeitgeist aspect of this game can be very punishing.

    Or - since you aren't around less than a couple of days in this forum - you could have read or noticed that it was 100% obvious that Arenanet won't accomplish what they thought strikes would bring to the game. I mean, it was like that for years and a company who is not able to adress minor issues over years won't be able to unify totally different types of players a.k.a. the ones knowing how to play a decent build and those who just run around with random stats and are happy with that. It just won't work with their ideas at least not if they don't spend enough effort and creativity for such a major thing.
    It was impressively proven again with Freezie this Wintersday when a huge amount of people joined the instance in public mode and couldn't have any success with pugs there while the squad option hadn't been a such a skritt show. A lot of people are not very good at understanding this game or at least challenging content. That won't change in the future - never.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020

    1)take 5 supp fro example 1 druid, 2 alac heals, 2 fb heals, or something like that.
    and 5 dps scourges
    2)kill

    if not have properly class - create new.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You either do the following:

    • Keep every torch lit and break its defiance bar every time
    • Stack on the boss with 3ish healers, move together to keep AoE’s from being spread, ignore torches

    The first option is pretty much impractical with pugs as there’s a severe player skill issue in this game.

    Having a heal scourge and heal renegade as two of the healers has been very helpful in my experience with pug groups.

    By the way, cleared it with your strategy. Thanks a lot! Basically, doing it with a PuG group our dps was terrible as we actually almost missed the timer. Literally by a couple seconds, and i thought we weren't going to make it. It was also our 3rd try and took us about an hour. We were very lucky a scourge necro was around to pull people out of bad. We lost coordination quite a few times with the group losing its stacking but the necros' ability to pull people around allowed them to carry the group by shepherding us all together.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

    I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

    I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

    You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge. If Strikes indeed prepare you for Raids, Fractals/dungeons prepare you for Strikes, so follow your own advice and do the natural progression. Strikes take too little time and effort, if they gave you the gear to Raid, then it would make the rest of the game pointless. When they finally add proper Strikes with enough challenge maybe they could add good gear rewards to them too.

    By the way, I believe Strikes are not a good preparation for Raids as they are lacking mechanics (Boneskinner maybe excluded) to be proper content that bridges that gap, and the Grothmar Strike is easier than all dungeons or fractals in the game. Follow the normal progression, Strikes are preparing you for Raids, but you clearly missed the preparation for Strikes.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok i scrolled this discussion quickly and i have to say that gear should not be a proplem for strike. You dont personally need to be able to fill anything else than one role like dps, other roles you can just look from LFG. It usually takes around 5 minutes to get a full squad if you just LFG like this:
    Boneskinner 1 druid, 1 heal, 2 quickbrand/chrono, 1 alarene, 1 bs and 3 dps.
    Everytime when some1 joins just edit the LFG.

    When it comes to gearing, you can gear many support classes for strikes only using trading post, chrono is more than ok for strikes with zerk gear and pack runes or even with givers gear. Same thing with quickbrand. For healers most can do fine in strikes with magi armor or again with givers.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mechanics and build rotations are the only barrier stopping people from raiding. Strike missions are generally a bit easier on the mechanics, so people can get used to doing them. In theory.

    I rather choose death.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

    I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

    You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge. If Strikes indeed prepare you for Raids, Fractals/dungeons prepare you for Strikes, so follow your own advice and do the natural progression. Strikes take too little time and effort, if they gave you the gear to Raid, then it would make the rest of the game pointless. When they finally add proper Strikes with enough challenge maybe they could add good gear rewards to them too.

    By the way, I believe Strikes are not a good preparation for Raids as they are lacking mechanics (Boneskinner maybe excluded) to be proper content that bridges that gap, and the Grothmar Strike is easier than all dungeons or fractals in the game. Follow the normal progression, Strikes are preparing you for Raids, but you clearly missed the preparation for Strikes.

    Didn't get any ascended gear either. IIRC, exotics can't have their stats swapped (nor can ascended trinkets cia mystic forge. There are special ones like the bloodstone fen ones). Fractals are starting to feel dead. When i try to do them, the groups are taking longer to fill, and from what i hear it gets really bad in the tier 2-3 range.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Another misconception players have can be observed here: Fractals as immediate and only source of ascended gear. While it is true that you will drown in ascended chests over time when playing fractals over a longer period it's not that they'll drop from the beginning and pretty regularly. But what most of the people forget completely: You gain gold in fractals and the more you climb up in levels/tiers the more gold will be acquired. This on the other hand can and definitely should be invested into crafting the pieces (easy peasily). Stop saving your gold for the next shiny (legendary) and immediately use it to get your gear ready. These are the best times to do the crafting thing. If I compare your situation with the beginning of veterans it was a good grind to get the gold/mats together to craft your first ascended armor. The prices for those are cheap af since a long time now. It amazes me every time I read/see players not being very well informed when it comes to instanced content and the sources of getting gear. I mean, it's so easy nowadays but still everything is either (still) too hard or totally unknown. Weapons can even be obtained via collections - they weren't present pre-HoT and not in those numbers from today!
    Some people are doing this to the recent day: We had to change our gear several times in the mystic forge because builds got outdated and stats, runes + sigils had to be changed. Of course it was and still is a bit annoying but it'll pay off and every time it's a good feeling to have your toon ready to go on a adventure knowing you won't be a burden for the rest of the team but a help or even a solid back-up.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

    I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

    You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge. If Strikes indeed prepare you for Raids, Fractals/dungeons prepare you for Strikes, so follow your own advice and do the natural progression. Strikes take too little time and effort, if they gave you the gear to Raid, then it would make the rest of the game pointless. When they finally add proper Strikes with enough challenge maybe they could add good gear rewards to them too.

    By the way, I believe Strikes are not a good preparation for Raids as they are lacking mechanics (Boneskinner maybe excluded) to be proper content that bridges that gap, and the Grothmar Strike is easier than all dungeons or fractals in the game. Follow the normal progression, Strikes are preparing you for Raids, but you clearly missed the preparation for Strikes.

    Didn't get any ascended gear either. IIRC, exotics can't have their stats swapped (nor can ascended trinkets cia mystic forge. There are special ones like the bloodstone fen ones). Fractals are starting to feel dead. When i try to do them, the groups are taking longer to fill, and from what i hear it gets really bad in the tier 2-3 range.

    Your doing level 1-25 fractals and expect loads of ascended drops?
    From what I remember you can get rings from those only.
    You can use the recommended fractal journal pages ( turned into book ofcourse) to buy ascended gear tho.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

    I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

    You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge. If Strikes indeed prepare you for Raids, Fractals/dungeons prepare you for Strikes, so follow your own advice and do the natural progression. Strikes take too little time and effort, if they gave you the gear to Raid, then it would make the rest of the game pointless. When they finally add proper Strikes with enough challenge maybe they could add good gear rewards to them too.

    By the way, I believe Strikes are not a good preparation for Raids as they are lacking mechanics (Boneskinner maybe excluded) to be proper content that bridges that gap, and the Grothmar Strike is easier than all dungeons or fractals in the game. Follow the normal progression, Strikes are preparing you for Raids, but you clearly missed the preparation for Strikes.

    Didn't get any ascended gear either. IIRC, exotics can't have their stats swapped (nor can ascended trinkets cia mystic forge. There are special ones like the bloodstone fen ones). Fractals are starting to feel dead. When i try to do them, the groups are taking longer to fill, and from what i hear it gets really bad in the tier 2-3 range.

    There has been some drop research in the past by the then guild KING:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3sk6au/kings_fractal_research_shows_that_a_champion/
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18IHVJao5j85KOp6lBTOgO8qs4VYD3Xty-jKPZo8o-Q4/pubhtml#

    and while the sample size was rather small (627 total), it did clearly show that while chests of lower rank have a chance of dropping ascended armor/weapon chests, the chance for getting any lower than T3 becomes insignificantly small. Which would also make sense since T1+2 fractals are far to easy to reward consistent ascended gear. The rng nature can be somewhat circumvented by doing recommended fractals (T1-3) for fractal research pages, which can be used for cheaper access to ascended gear.

    The chance at reward rank T4 is on average 10-12% for getting "a chest" per day. This is obviously subject to rng as well. I have gone weeks without a single ascended chest of any type, and I have seen days with 3 and weeks with more than 8 in those weeks.

    T4 fractals obviously see the most of play since eventually fractal players end up there, or quit the content.

    TL;DR:
    Ascended rewards in fractals are at the very top end. Players who have spent a couple of hours on fractals barely scratching the content will not see immediate return. The idea is that players gradually improve and rise through fractal ranks while they become better players. T1+2 are not worth mentioning easy, T3 is only slightly more difficult since the vast majority of players "stuck" there are trash and T4 is being run the most by the community because the majority of players end up there.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

    I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

    You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge. If Strikes indeed prepare you for Raids, Fractals/dungeons prepare you for Strikes, so follow your own advice and do the natural progression. Strikes take too little time and effort, if they gave you the gear to Raid, then it would make the rest of the game pointless. When they finally add proper Strikes with enough challenge maybe they could add good gear rewards to them too.

    By the way, I believe Strikes are not a good preparation for Raids as they are lacking mechanics (Boneskinner maybe excluded) to be proper content that bridges that gap, and the Grothmar Strike is easier than all dungeons or fractals in the game. Follow the normal progression, Strikes are preparing you for Raids, but you clearly missed the preparation for Strikes.

    Didn't get any ascended gear either. IIRC, exotics can't have their stats swapped (nor can ascended trinkets cia mystic forge. There are special ones like the bloodstone fen ones). Fractals are starting to feel dead. When i try to do them, the groups are taking longer to fill, and from what i hear it gets really bad in the tier 2-3 range.

    Your doing level 1-25 fractals and expect loads of ascended drops?
    From what I remember you can get rings from those only.
    You can use the recommended fractal journal pages ( turned into book ofcourse) to buy ascended gear tho.

    No i'm pointing out they're not a viable gearing strategy for current raid design. If you're expecting people to have characters geared in t4 fractal gear before stepping into strikes that's overkill and an overdone gear preparation loop. The strikes themselves can be plenty time consuming just in terms of assembling a group (though harder ones like Fraenir and Boneskinner require strategy explanations as well as potential retries). If a piece of content, that's already time consuming is really supposed to be pre-raid then it should reward gear that prepares for raids and the harder portions of itself (such as boneskinner) . The response I was responding to advising doing fractals sounded flippant -> like just stepping into them would award appropriate gear. Had they led with "just do t4 fractals" I could explain that loop fallacy to begin with.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

    I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

    You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge. If Strikes indeed prepare you for Raids, Fractals/dungeons prepare you for Strikes, so follow your own advice and do the natural progression. Strikes take too little time and effort, if they gave you the gear to Raid, then it would make the rest of the game pointless. When they finally add proper Strikes with enough challenge maybe they could add good gear rewards to them too.

    By the way, I believe Strikes are not a good preparation for Raids as they are lacking mechanics (Boneskinner maybe excluded) to be proper content that bridges that gap, and the Grothmar Strike is easier than all dungeons or fractals in the game. Follow the normal progression, Strikes are preparing you for Raids, but you clearly missed the preparation for Strikes.

    Didn't get any ascended gear either. IIRC, exotics can't have their stats swapped (nor can ascended trinkets cia mystic forge. There are special ones like the bloodstone fen ones). Fractals are starting to feel dead. When i try to do them, the groups are taking longer to fill, and from what i hear it gets really bad in the tier 2-3 range.

    There has been some drop research in the past by the then guild KING:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3sk6au/kings_fractal_research_shows_that_a_champion/
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18IHVJao5j85KOp6lBTOgO8qs4VYD3Xty-jKPZo8o-Q4/pubhtml#

    and while the sample size was rather small (627 total), it did clearly show that while chests of lower rank have a chance of dropping ascended armor/weapon chests, the chance for getting any lower than T3 becomes insignificantly small. Which would also make sense since T1+2 fractals are far to easy to reward consistent ascended gear. The rng nature can be somewhat circumvented by doing recommended fractals (T1-3) for fractal research pages, which can be used for cheaper access to ascended gear.

    The chance at reward rank T4 is on average 10-12% for getting "a chest" per day. This is obviously subject to rng as well. I have gone weeks without a single ascended chest of any type, and I have seen days with 3 and weeks with more than 8 in those weeks.

    T4 fractals obviously see the most of play since eventually fractal players end up there, or quit the content.

    TL;DR:
    Ascended rewards in fractals are at the very top end. Players who have spent a couple of hours on fractals barely scratching the content will not see immediate return. The idea is that players gradually improve and rise through fractal ranks while they become better players. T1+2 are not worth mentioning easy, T3 is only slightly more difficult since the vast majority of players "stuck" there are trash and T4 is being run the most by the community because the majority of players end up there.

    I understand as much, i'm just asserting the idea you'd expect players to push t4 fractals on top of regular strikes as preparation for some of those strikes is ridiculous. The response I was responding to advising doing fractals sounded flippant -> like just stepping into them would award appropriate gear. Had they led with "just do t4 fractals" I could explain that loop fallacy to begin with.

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

    Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

    I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

    You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge. If Strikes indeed prepare you for Raids, Fractals/dungeons prepare you for Strikes, so follow your own advice and do the natural progression. Strikes take too little time and effort, if they gave you the gear to Raid, then it would make the rest of the game pointless. When they finally add proper Strikes with enough challenge maybe they could add good gear rewards to them too.

    By the way, I believe Strikes are not a good preparation for Raids as they are lacking mechanics (Boneskinner maybe excluded) to be proper content that bridges that gap, and the Grothmar Strike is easier than all dungeons or fractals in the game. Follow the normal progression, Strikes are preparing you for Raids, but you clearly missed the preparation for Strikes.

    Didn't get any ascended gear either. IIRC, exotics can't have their stats swapped (nor can ascended trinkets cia mystic forge. There are special ones like the bloodstone fen ones). Fractals are starting to feel dead. When i try to do them, the groups are taking longer to fill, and from what i hear it gets really bad in the tier 2-3 range.

    Your doing level 1-25 fractals and expect loads of ascended drops?
    From what I remember you can get rings from those only.
    You can use the recommended fractal journal pages ( turned into book ofcourse) to buy ascended gear tho.

    If you're expecting people to have characters geared in t4 fractal gear before stepping into strikes that's overkill and an overdone gear preparation loop.

    Thing is, no one is expecting that. As people have said from basically the very start of this thread, exotic is perfectly fine for doing strikes.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    No i'm pointing out they're not a viable gearing strategy for current raid design. If you're expecting people to have characters geared in t4 fractal gear before stepping into strikes that's overkill and an overdone gear preparation loop.

    You don't need ascended to succeed in Strikes, you don't need to reach T4 fractals to play Strikes. Fractals, dungeons, crafting, open world, story instances will award you the gear needed to Raid, Strikes will teach you to deal with mechanics and group composition. Higher end Fractals, and especially CMs, can be more challenging than Raids. You expect a clear progression from one type of content to the next, that's a gear treadmill and you can go find it in many other games, in this one you can get max tier gear from a variety of sources and is irrelevant to success in Strikes (or even Raids)

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    No i'm pointing out they're not a viable gearing strategy for current raid design. If you're expecting people to have characters geared in t4 fractal gear before stepping into strikes that's overkill and an overdone gear preparation loop.

    You don't need ascended to succeed in Strikes, you don't need to reach T4 fractals to play Strikes. Fractals, dungeons, crafting, open world, story instances will award you the gear needed to Raid, Strikes will teach you to deal with mechanics and group composition. Higher end Fractals, and especially CMs, can be more challenging than Raids. You expect a clear progression from one type of content to the next, that's a gear treadmill and you can go find it in many other games, in this one you can get max tier gear from a variety of sources and is irrelevant to success in Strikes (or even Raids)

    You back pedaled here. You talked about stat swapping gear from fractals, then we established later in the thread that that type of gear doesn't come from lower fractals, and now you're saying this. Okay it's non linear progression fine. But don't suggest something that is clearly a higher level fractal strategy and then act like that wasn't what you were suggesting. And this conversation has forked and lost context so many times it's not even meaningful.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    No i'm pointing out they're not a viable gearing strategy for current raid design. If you're expecting people to have characters geared in t4 fractal gear before stepping into strikes that's overkill and an overdone gear preparation loop.

    You don't need ascended to succeed in Strikes, you don't need to reach T4 fractals to play Strikes. Fractals, dungeons, crafting, open world, story instances will award you the gear needed to Raid, Strikes will teach you to deal with mechanics and group composition. Higher end Fractals, and especially CMs, can be more challenging than Raids. You expect a clear progression from one type of content to the next, that's a gear treadmill and you can go find it in many other games, in this one you can get max tier gear from a variety of sources and is irrelevant to success in Strikes (or even Raids)

    You back pedaled here. You talked about stat swapping gear from fractals, then we established later in the thread that that type of gear doesn't come from lower fractals, and now you're saying this. Okay it's non linear progression fine. But don't suggest something that is clearly a higher level fractal strategy and then act like that wasn't what you were suggesting.

    I said you can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge, which is true for all types of ascended armor and weapons. I never said you get stat swappable gear from fractals.
    Specifically:

    You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge.

    Check these out for where you can get Ascended items as there are multiple sources (that would conflict with Strikes if they also awarded Ascended):
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapon
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor

    Then once you get them, follow the advice and convert their stats.

    I never suggested to go do higher level fractals to get gear for Strikes, you confuse the two separate suggestions. One was about swapping stats using the Mystic Forge, and the other one about gearing up in Fractals and Dungeons, that doesn't mean you can get stat swappable gear from Fractals/Dungeons. You don't need Ascended for Strikes and you can get Exotic tier gear (which is all you need) from the following sources:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exotic_armor
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exotic_weapon

    Plenty of options to gear up in the game, there is little reason to add more of those in Strikes.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So whats the proplem here now? Is it that you need a specific role composition for instanced content or is that gearing is too hard?

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So whats the proplem here now? Is it that you need a specific role composition for instanced content or is that gearing is too hard?

    I think we are back to handing out legendary armor & weapons via login. Everything else is too much nowadays. Let's show some mercy to the crowd.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So whats the proplem here now? Is it that you need a specific role composition for instanced content or is that gearing is too hard?

    I think we are back to handing out legendary armor & weapons via login. Everything else is too much nowadays. Let's show some mercy to the crowd.

    Well you suggested it. I sure as heck never asked for this lol. This just illustrates perfectly how little attention people are paying to the discussion and my comments as a whole.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So whats the proplem here now? Is it that you need a specific role composition for instanced content or is that gearing is too hard?

    The disjointedness. However depending on the implementation of the armor in the next episode this may be being remedied.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So whats the proplem here now? Is it that you need a specific role composition for instanced content or is that gearing is too hard?

    I think we are back to handing out legendary armor & weapons via login. Everything else is too much nowadays. Let's show some mercy to the crowd.

    Well you suggested it. I sure as heck never asked for this lol. This just illustrates perfectly how little attention people are paying to the discussion and my comments as a whole.

    Since the serious discussion was over anyways I was just making a joke. A funny reference to lots of conversation here in the past.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Joraan Adenard.2061Joraan Adenard.2061 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    I believe the debate in this thread rises from two specific wrong assumptions from the OP which are as follow :

    1. Raids are gated behind gear
    2. Gear is specifically handed through content

    First, raids are NOT gear-gated. While many pug groups will expect ascended gear, raids are perfectly doable with exotics as long as you do your job properly. Yes, the same exotics that you can get with any content as drops, that you can easily craft and sometimes buy for a few gold (for a whole set) on the TP. You could even complete raids with less than exotics as long as you master your role. That brings us to this fundamental aspect of raids : the challenge lies on group composition, knowledge of mechanics and personal responsibility.

    Indeed, while strong knowledge of your role and the encounter can guarantee success (with an equally skilled group) whatever the rarity of the gear you have, great gear with poor knowledge of your role and of the encounter almosr guarantees failure.

    In that sense, strikes aim to prepare you for raids through skill, not gear (the success of this objective is debatable).

    Lastly, you have to know that high end gear in this game isnt meant to be acquired through loot ( though it can be, as pointed in previous posts) as vertical progression of content. It is meant to be crafted. As such, it is wrong to assume that strikes should drop ascended gear.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Joraan Adenard.2061 said:
    I believe the debate in this thread rises from two specific wrong assumptions from the OP which are as follow :

    1. Raids are gated behind gear
    2. Gear is specifically handed through content

    First, raids are NOT gear-gated. While many pug groups will expect ascended gear, raids are perfectly doable with exotics as long as you do your job properly. Yes, the same exotics that you can get with any content as drops, that you can easily craft and sometimes buy for a few gold (for a whole set) on the TP. You could even complete raids with less than exotics as long as you master your role. That brings us to this fundamental aspect of raids : the challenge lies on group composition, knowledge of mechanics and personal responsibility.

    Indeed, while strong knowledge of your role and the encounter can guarantee success (with an equally skilled group) whatever the rarity of the gear you have, great gear with poor knowledge of your role and of the encounter almosr guarantees failure.

    In that sense, strikes aim to prepare you for raids through skill, not gear (the success of this objective is debatable).

    Lastly, you have to know that high end gear in this game isnt meant to be acquired through loot ( though it can be, as pointed in previous posts) as vertical progression of content. It is meant to be crafted. As such, it is wrong to assume that strikes should drop ascended gear.

    Why does everyone think i'm talking about ascended gear? I only mentioned them before because someone was talking about stat switching, i was pointing out that's ascended only. Basically people started saying that you need raid roles to do the hardest strike content, i was saying that's ridiculous if that's the case with the lack of gear progression. Once we're talking raid roles, that makes me think we need the holy combo of boons might, alacrity, quickness, + utility boons required by different situations, which translates into diviners/harriers depending on role. Anyway it's moot now. Cy has already shown how to get selectable stat armor which is super useful.

    Some of my responses (specifically around ascended gear) were to illustrate how ridiculous some of the suggestions were. The purpose of this thread is done, cy has shown me how to get selectable stat exotics, another player's strategy taught me how to down Boneskinner and i'm grateful to the people that are helpful.

    The nature of the game changes the more you learn about it and the more you advance your account/professions and i think a lot of people lose sight of that when going out of their way to be contrarian. This game is very broad and even studying the wiki i learn new stuff all the time.

  • I killed him plenty of times after the update: Get 2-3 healers, alacrity and strong DPS.. and you are good to go. Don't even have to touch torches..

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Basically people started saying that you need raid roles to do the hardest strike content, i was saying that's ridiculous if that's the case with the lack of gear progression. Once we're talking raid roles, that makes me think we need the holy combo of boons might, alacrity, quickness, + utility boons required by different situations, which translates into diviners/harriers depending on role.

    Nobody said that exclusively. What was said was that one strategy in one specific encounter (here: Boneskinner) needs to have certain roles (here: healers). But you can also play different from that if the people would actually play the mechanics together and care about each other a.k.a. acting as a proper team.
    Since the past has shown that lots of GW2 players are acting more like single players in an MMO it is - with no doubt - hard to get random people together and expect to function as a whole.
    Players like you that want to be a part of a team and are willing to put effort into progressing have a hard life outside of guilds, communities or with several friends on their side because you are not fully experienced yet but also aware of how it could possibly work out. Let me tell you this: Lots of GW2 players aren't. They play the game differently and no strike mission ever will bring the more ambitious players together with inexperienced players that aren't willing to step up because they want to play "casually" (this is totally fine btw.). I insist on this point because I've played this game since almost the start and faced every situation we had over this time span till today - be it efficient dungeon running, playing fractals from the beginning till fractal god and raiding including cms.

    The huge amount of stats leading to lots of different builds (most of them semi-useful to almost useless) + a clearly visible difference of skill (because humans are individuals with individual competences) generates a massive mismatch between players in this game. Imho this cannot be fixed or improved.
    Certain encounters in the past have shown that if you make them mechanic heavy but without dps pressure skilled players will easily beat those and on the opposite - simple mechanics and high dps pressure - is a breeze for them as well. On the other hand the casual crowd fails both types since they are either terrible at playing mechanics and/or lacking dps in massive amounts due to their bad gear. The result is that you need easy mechanics with low dps pressure for them (look at world bosses) to be successful. Those encounters are then problematic for the more hardcore people because those offer 0 challenge to them.

    Therefore we need different playgrounds where everybody can have its honey pot (and I realize that this has to be in appropriate fractions due to the casual crowd being the bigger group). But leaving out substantial content for the hardcore player base will result in player efflux from this group - and this has happened heavily in the last months.
    Sounds depressing and some are stating the question of how people that are capable of playing substantially better can step up from low content to raiding. The answer is: dedication and putting effort into it. I've yet to meet someone who desperately wants to raid but couldn't get into raiding except for those working on night shift or have tight schedules due to family, work or something else. The opposite is actually true: I've seen so many beginners getting into raiding and lots of them have at least one legendary armor from raids or the leggy ring by now.
    It's all doable if you want to.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • It's the last day of Boneskinner Week this month and I've come looking for solutions. I read through all the posts to date and appreciate the comments - even the ones that strayed from the main topic - it sounds like people needed to vent and it's apparent the strikes need more work if they are to meet the stated intention.

    I've participated in Bjora Strike Missions every night, most of them successful, including the Boneskinner. What I'm seeing now is everything mentioned above, and in a negative way.

    Yes, leaders can choose their 10 team members, but now some are becoming more particular, including telling people to leave if they don't like their choice of weapon. Other groups have commanders with no raid experience and cannot help team members with adequate strategies or advice on which character to bring to the mission.

    People want to learn. They are willing to switch characters if it will help the team and learn how to better use their skills if they are told how and not scolded or put down. Simple commands like "/gg" are new to them, but they're learning.

    The tips above on how to defeat the Boneskinner work. I've reiterated them to commanders many times, but a team of 10 inexperienced players rarely succeeds.

    Instead of offering a place where people can learn from each other, Anet has created an environment where the division between the two groups becomes more evident and sometimes negative. To meet the goal of encouraging more players to try raids and work in groups, Anet needs to develop an environment more conducive to people helping each other and a safe place for inexperienced players to learn. I'm in the middle of the experience spectrum and want to see something positive come from all this so we can get back to having fun killing stuff.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A team of inexperienced players do succeed and quite often than you’re making it out to be. The only reason groups fail when doing the healing strat is because too many of them are incapable of paying attention and staying out of the red AOEs.

    A fairly large percentage of the player base is under the mindset of stack on boss and spam their auto attack. It may seem like a meme, but it’s true. I’ve seen players time after time who stack on the boss while having low enough DPS that they have to have been auto attacking.

    Anet hasn’t created any environment that you described. This has always existed between players that wanted to complete specific content quickly and those who don’t (or lack the skills to do so). We saw this many many years ago with dungeons. This environment was created by the players.

    Strikes, even the boneskinner one, are conducive to learning. Unfortunately players are choosing not to learn which was why I was against training raids, or an easy mode for learning, in the first place.

    If you truly want an environment for new players to learn the strikes as you feel such a thing is lacking, create your own group in the LFG specifying that the strike group is for learning. Don’t expect to join a group and for players to give up their time to teach you. The teaching thing is a bit unnecessary are the strikes up to this point haven’t been all that difficult to learn.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Seraph.5831 said:
    It's the last day of Boneskinner Week this month and I've come looking for solutions. I read through all the posts to date and appreciate the comments - even the ones that strayed from the main topic - it sounds like people needed to vent and it's apparent the strikes need more work if they are to meet the stated intention.

    I've participated in Bjora Strike Missions every night, most of them successful, including the Boneskinner. What I'm seeing now is everything mentioned above, and in a negative way.

    Yes, leaders can choose their 10 team members, but now some are becoming more particular, including telling people to leave if they don't like their choice of weapon. Other groups have commanders with no raid experience and cannot help team members with adequate strategies or advice on which character to bring to the mission.

    People want to learn. They are willing to switch characters if it will help the team and learn how to better use their skills if they are told how and not scolded or put down. Simple commands like "/gg" are new to them, but they're learning.

    The tips above on how to defeat the Boneskinner work. I've reiterated them to commanders many times, but a team of 10 inexperienced players rarely succeeds.

    Instead of offering a place where people can learn from each other, Anet has created an environment where the division between the two groups becomes more evident and sometimes negative. To meet the goal of encouraging more players to try raids and work in groups, Anet needs to develop an environment more conducive to people helping each other and a safe place for inexperienced players to learn. I'm in the middle of the experience spectrum and want to see something positive come from all this so we can get back to having fun killing stuff.

    But tell me, what is the solution Arenanet can implement here? I would say: It is not possible. We are seeing different kind of people here and you won't bring them together because their play style differ so heavily from each other that mixing them is one of the worst ideas possible. The players that want to progress already do so by themselves: They ask in map chat about more useful builds, have guilds & communities in which they find answers and/or most likely know about web sites from Snowcrows, LN & Metabattle. It's not like you have players out there knowing explicitly nothing about the game. Those just do not want to play like this. They don't want to "struggle" with gearing their char properly. They don't want to learn mechanics of encounters. They want to get into a boss fight, beat it and feel they contributed to it even though their performance was terrible. Let them play like this a.k.a. give them easy modes or for my sake strikes. Let all strikes be hilariously easy but develop harder content for the niche as well. Since Arenanet tries to cover that they have no plan to develop more challenging raids they put things like Boneskinner in that again a majority of players is not able to beat but on the other hand is too boring for the more casual crowd. On top the rewards are skritt at best so they obviously are a failure from the start.
    Cater to your subsets of customers and you'll be fine. They don't do that so the complaints will stay.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • DRfear.5234DRfear.5234 Member ✭✭✭

    just 2 man it like this, easy

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @DRfear.5234 said:
    just 2 man it like this, easy

    That was before they updated the boneskinner. They tried it again after and couldn’t do it.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Seraph.5831 said:
    It's the last day of Boneskinner Week this month and I've come looking for solutions. I read through all the posts to date and appreciate the comments - even the ones that strayed from the main topic - it sounds like people needed to vent and it's apparent the strikes need more work if they are to meet the stated intention.

    I've participated in Bjora Strike Missions every night, most of them successful, including the Boneskinner. What I'm seeing now is everything mentioned above, and in a negative way.

    Yes, leaders can choose their 10 team members, but now some are becoming more particular, including telling people to leave if they don't like their choice of weapon. Other groups have commanders with no raid experience and cannot help team members with adequate strategies or advice on which character to bring to the mission.

    People want to learn. They are willing to switch characters if it will help the team and learn how to better use their skills if they are told how and not scolded or put down. Simple commands like "/gg" are new to them, but they're learning.

    The tips above on how to defeat the Boneskinner work. I've reiterated them to commanders many times, but a team of 10 inexperienced players rarely succeeds.

    Instead of offering a place where people can learn from each other, Anet has created an environment where the division between the two groups becomes more evident and sometimes negative. To meet the goal of encouraging more players to try raids and work in groups, Anet needs to develop an environment more conducive to people helping each other and a safe place for inexperienced players to learn. I'm in the middle of the experience spectrum and want to see something positive come from all this so we can get back to having fun killing stuff.

    But tell me, what is the solution Arenanet can implement here? I would say: It is not possible. We are seeing different kind of people here and you won't bring them together because their play style differ so heavily from each other that mixing them is one of the worst ideas possible. The players that want to progress already do so by themselves: They ask in map chat about more useful builds, have guilds & communities in which they find answers and/or most likely know about web sites from Snowcrows, LN & Metabattle. It's not like you have players out there knowing explicitly nothing about the game. Those just do not want to play like this. They don't want to "struggle" with gearing their char properly. They don't want to learn mechanics of encounters. They want to get into a boss fight, beat it and feel they contributed to it even though their performance was terrible. Let them play like this a.k.a. give them easy modes or for my sake strikes. Let all strikes be hilariously easy but develop harder content for the niche as well. Since Arenanet tries to cover that they have no plan to develop more challenging raids they put things like Boneskinner in that again a majority of players is not able to beat but on the other hand is too boring for the more casual crowd. On top the rewards are skritt at best so they obviously are a failure from the start.
    Cater to your subsets of customers and you'll be fine. They don't do that so the complaints will stay.

    Strikes are intended to prepare players for raids. Making strikes brain dead content where everyone gets their participation prize with low effort is not the way to go.

    The primary reason players fail at boneskinner is because they do not pay attention and stand in the red aoes. This is a player skill issue and not an issue with the strike.