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How to do boneskinner?

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  • DRfear.5234DRfear.5234 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @DRfear.5234 said:

    That was before they updated the boneskinner. They tried it again after and couldn’t do it.

    u are wrong, this is after the fix xD

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @DRfear.5234 said:
    just 2 man it like this, easy

    That was before they updated the boneskinner. They tried it again after and couldn’t do it.

    Was it buffed twice?
    since he specificly say at start that this is after the buff.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Strikes are intended to prepare players for raids. Making strikes brain dead content where everyone gets their participation prize with low effort is not the way to go.

    The primary reason players fail at boneskinner is because they do not pay attention and stand in the red aoes. This is a player skill issue and not an issue with the strike.

    The way strikes are implemented won't lead to prepare players for raids. Actually, a proper grouping tool/tutorial with step-by-step explanation how to "get to together" would prepare them better than strikes ever could.
    Strikes are just bosses with 0 explanation and the one day a player faces Icebrood construct most likely won't fail and "win" and the other day he/she will face the Kodans or worse directly Boneskinner and fail. Even if they win at Boneskinner they usually have no clue why and that the squad consisted of 4 healers for example. There's 0 indication what's needed or how things are working. So, with that logic, dungeons, later on fractals are preparing in the same way for raids as strikes are doing. In fact fractals are doing better overall because they have at least 4, if not 5, different difficulty levels with T1-4 + CMs.
    But it remains true: In all of those contents players don't know anything about dps, buffing a.k.a. having support classes (and healing) when they are starting.

    Strikes are just a cheap implementation of saying: "Nah, we won't be able or we don't implement dungeons, fractals & raids any longer, so we ship out a new thing called strike make them either doable for anyone (Icebrood Construct) or not (Boneskinner) but we won't hand out any advice or tutorial for beginner becoming better at the game. At the same time we save dev resources with not implementing challenging content and leave that community behind."

    I mean you can do that but don't expect players of both sites to be very satisfied. Nobody can tell me that strikes are a model of success. Especially when Anet's strenght comes to the surface at being horrible putting up a proper reward balance.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @DRfear.5234 said:
    just 2 man it like this, easy

    That was before they updated the boneskinner. They tried it again after and couldn’t do it.

    Was it buffed twice?
    since he specificly say at start that this is after the buff.

    I didn’t realize that he had tried again later and succeeded. I remember that he tried after the update and they couldn’t do it.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Strikes are intended to prepare players for raids. Making strikes brain dead content where everyone gets their participation prize with low effort is not the way to go.

    The primary reason players fail at boneskinner is because they do not pay attention and stand in the red aoes. This is a player skill issue and not an issue with the strike.

    The way strikes are implemented won't lead to prepare players for raids. Actually, a proper grouping tool/tutorial with step-by-step explanation how to "get to together" would prepare them better than strikes ever could.

    It would help with the formation of groups but won’t help with the actual raid encounters. It also won’t help with the majority of players who join existing groups. Besides, the Snow Crows website already provides a great explanation about this.

    Strikes have mechanics that are similar to what you see in raids. Players learn these mechanics and then apply that knowledge towards overcoming the mechanic that’s similar in raids. Unfortunately Anet made the strikes way too forgiving so mechanics can be skipped.

    Strikes are just bosses with 0 explanation and the one day a player faces Icebrood construct most likely won't fail and "win" and the other day he/she will face the Kodans or worse directly Boneskinner and fail. Even if they win at Boneskinner they usually have no clue why and that the squad consisted of 4 healers for example. There's 0 indication what's needed or how things are working. So, with that logic, dungeons, later on fractals are preparing in the same way for raids as strikes are doing. In fact fractals are doing better overall because they have at least 4, if not 5, different difficulty levels with T1-4 + CMs.
    But it remains true: In all of those contents players don't know anything about dps, buffing a.k.a. having support classes (and healing) when they are starting.

    Everything in this game doesn’t have an explanation on how to beat it. This is something that players learned how to do. Fractals don’t give any explanation but the difference being that they are less forgiving that strikes.

    This is also the perfect time for players to learn more about DPS, support, and so on. There doesn’t need to be separate training provided by Anet for this.

    Strikes are just a cheap implementation of saying: "Nah, we won't be able or we don't implement dungeons, fractals & raids any longer, so we ship out a new thing called strike make them either doable for anyone (Icebrood Construct) or not (Boneskinner) but we won't hand out any advice or tutorial for beginner becoming better at the game. At the same time we save dev resources with not implementing challenging content and leave that community behind."

    That’s an assumption that there won’t be any more fractals or raids. Whether or not there’s any truth to that is irrelevant as strikes were not intended to be their replacement.

    I mean you can do that but don't expect players of both sites to be very satisfied. Nobody can tell me that strikes are a model of success. Especially when Anet's strenght comes to the surface at being horrible putting up a proper reward balance.

    Rewards could certainly be improved with the Bjora strikes to include some worthwhile RNG drop but the primary focus should still remain to teach players various new habits that they’d encounter in raids. The only way to do this is to force players to perform those mechanics rather than ignore them.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It would help with the formation of groups but won’t help with the actual raid encounters. It also won’t help with the majority of players who join existing groups. Besides, the Snow Crows website already provides a great explanation about this.

    Strikes have mechanics that are similar to what you see in raids. Players learn these mechanics and then apply that knowledge towards overcoming the mechanic that’s similar in raids. Unfortunately Anet made the strikes way too forgiving so mechanics can be skipped.

    I just stated the fact that the only additional value strikes brought in was the formation of a 10 person squad or its semi-automatic formation via public. Everything else has been there before: Be it dungeons with very few indicators & tells or fractals that have raid-like mechanics for years. T1 fractals also are easy grouping easy kill content. In no way strikes were needed extra.

    Everything in this game doesn’t have an explanation on how to beat it. This is something that players learned how to do. Fractals don’t give any explanation but the difference being that they are less forgiving that strikes.

    That's wrong. T1 fractals are very forgiving and but also have different difficulties within their tier. Again, strikes didn't bring in new value regarding the things you mentioned except the 10 player variant. If we don't need to teach players how to learn their classes, buffing/healing others there's no need for strikes in the first place because everything else is here - since years.

    This is also the perfect time for players to learn more about DPS, support, and so on. There doesn’t need to be separate training provided by Anet for this.

    You don't need those in strikes, you don't need those in fractals. Except for boneskinner but here the antagonist is higher tier fractals. So again, I don't see the necessity for strikes at all.

    That’s an assumption that there won’t be any more fractals or raids. Whether or not there’s any truth to that is irrelevant as strikes were not intended to be their replacement.

    Well, to this point of time "nothing is off the table". We all heard this a thousand times now but it won't help at all. It's more than one year now that we got a new fractal and in addition the last two (Siren's Reef + Deepstone) were fractals accompanied with very low enthusiasm by the core fractal player base. Even Twilight Oasis led to player efflux than influx.
    I still hold my guess that they replaced new raids & fractals with strikes because they are much cheaper: Only one little room with 1 encounter (2 in case of Kodans) with no serious scripts in case of tubing (bosses in a row, enemies in between etc.). It's obvious that this was their main intention and not the argument of bringing players together and scaling down the gap between hardcore and casual crowd. This argument is a simple excuse to veil that serious content isn't produced any longer - at least for a serious long-enough time span. Therefore, yes, strikes are a sort of replacement and a dirty one because with fracs & raids they cover two things and not just one.

    Rewards could certainly be improved with the Bjora strikes to include some worthwhile RNG drop but the primary focus should still remain to teach players various new habits that they’d encounter in raids. The only way to do this is to force players to perform those mechanics rather than ignore them.

    "could certainly be improved" is such an understatement what is again something I expected from your side. I mean you are totally fine and satisfied with the game. Good! But even you should have noticed that this is not the case for everyone here.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It would help with the formation of groups but won’t help with the actual raid encounters. It also won’t help with the majority of players who join existing groups. Besides, the Snow Crows website already provides a great explanation about this.

    Strikes have mechanics that are similar to what you see in raids. Players learn these mechanics and then apply that knowledge towards overcoming the mechanic that’s similar in raids. Unfortunately Anet made the strikes way too forgiving so mechanics can be skipped.

    I just stated the fact that the only additional value strikes brought in was the formation of a 10 person squad or its semi-automatic formation via public. Everything else has been there before: Be it dungeons with very few indicators & tells or fractals that have raid-like mechanics for years. T1 fractals also are easy grouping easy kill content. In no way strikes were needed extra.

    Whether mechanics exist in other content is irrelevant to the reason why Anet added strike missions. If you believe that strikes were in no way needed, why do you even care so much? Additional means to train for raids were consistently brought up by players who wanted an easy mode for raids. If I were to go back to those threads, which side of the argument would I find you on? In any case, Anet felt there was a needed for content that bridged the gap to raids so they added strikes.

    Everything in this game doesn’t have an explanation on how to beat it. This is something that players learned how to do. Fractals don’t give any explanation but the difference being that they are less forgiving that strikes.

    That's wrong. T1 fractals are very forgiving and but also have different difficulties within their tier. Again, strikes didn't bring in new value regarding the things you mentioned except the 10 player variant. If we don't need to teach players how to learn their classes, buffing/healing others there's no need for strikes in the first place because everything else is here - since years.

    Playing a class efficiently, as well as playing as a group, isn't unique to raids. It's something players should have been doing along. The difficulty in raids is the mechanics which was what strikes were created to help with. I'm going to make a guess that you don't raid?

    This is also the perfect time for players to learn more about DPS, support, and so on. There doesn’t need to be separate training provided by Anet for this.

    You don't need those in strikes, you don't need those in fractals. Except for boneskinner but here the antagonist is higher tier fractals. So again, I don't see the necessity for strikes at all.

    Players don't need those yet but there's no reason that they cannot use strikes to improve. Strikes will also get progressively more difficult so eventually this will be important.

    That’s an assumption that there won’t be any more fractals or raids. Whether or not there’s any truth to that is irrelevant as strikes were not intended to be their replacement.

    Well, to this point of time "nothing is off the table". We all heard this a thousand times now but it won't help at all. It's more than one year now that we got a new fractal and in addition the last two (Siren's Reef + Deepstone) were fractals accompanied with very low enthusiasm by the core fractal player base. Even Twilight Oasis led to player efflux than influx.
    I still hold my guess that they replaced new raids & fractals with strikes because they are much cheaper: Only one little room with 1 encounter (2 in case of Kodans) with no serious scripts in case of tubing (bosses in a row, enemies in between etc.). It's obvious that this was their main intention and not the argument of bringing players together and scaling down the gap between hardcore and casual crowd. This argument is a simple excuse to veil that serious content isn't produced any longer - at least for a serious long-enough time span. Therefore, yes, strikes are a sort of replacement and a dirty one because with fracs & raids they cover two things and not just one.

    That's an assumption of yours based on little facts. You don't know whether Anet is working on another fractal and raid. They typically don't reveal that information until it's practicality ready. So no, it's not "obvious".

    Rewards could certainly be improved with the Bjora strikes to include some worthwhile RNG drop but the primary focus should still remain to teach players various new habits that they’d encounter in raids. The only way to do this is to force players to perform those mechanics rather than ignore them.

    "could certainly be improved" is such an understatement what is again something I expected from your side. I mean you are totally fine and satisfied with the game. Good! But even you should have noticed that this is not the case for everyone here.

    I don't believe that Anet intended strikes to be another full-fledged game mode. Based on the rewards so far, this seems to be the case. Anet could certainly add some RNG rewards for those players that need a carrot to chase or need to get their next dopamine fix. Their primary intention with strikes still remains to be what they've already stated.

  • Thanks for the comments. Had a great time today teaching new people how to do the Voice and Claw strike - took a couple of tries, but got it and they had fun.

    My comment above is about Boneskinner, not about all three missions, because that was the title of the discussion. The other 2 missions encourage new people to try something different. And I'm not seeing people turned away for anything but Boneskinner. I'll probably advise new groups which are repeatedly getting their kitten kicked by BS to wait until one of the other strike missions comes into rotation.

    I appreciated one of the previous comments a few weeks ago that it seems there are three different levels of difficulty. That helps explain it to new folks.

  • @DRfear.5234 said:
    just 2 man it like this, easy

    I run as Rev and love seeing them two-man it. TY

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Whether mechanics exist in other content is irrelevant to the reason why Anet added strike missions. If you believe that strikes were in no way needed, why do you even care so much? Additional means to train for raids were consistently brought up by players who wanted an easy mode for raids. If I were to go back to those threads, which side of the argument would I find you on? In any case, Anet felt there was a needed for content that bridged the gap to raids so they added strikes.

    I care much because "my content" isn't in development since 1 year now for fractals respectively 7 months if we talk about raids. And both latest releases were disappointing. I don't see the additional value that strikes brought in because there isn't any. Strikes serve in no way better for training raids than fractals or raiding easier bosses itself.

    Playing a class efficiently, as well as playing as a group, isn't unique to raids. It's something players should have been doing along. The difficulty in raids is the mechanics which was what strikes were created to help with. I'm going to make a guess that you don't raid?

    Well, it's more the question of you have never been into fractals, I guess? I repeat myself: Strikes don't have anything more or special compared to fractals. The only difference is 5 vs. 10 players which isn't a plausible argument for making strikes.

    Players don't need those yet but there's no reason that they cannot use strikes to improve. Strikes will also get progressively more difficult so eventually this will be important.

    Thanks, you agree, players need to improve if they want to raid and that's what fractals can do. Even much better than strikes because there's a tiered level system where players can visually see that there are difficulty differences. For strikes they can't in the slightest. A new player will stagger into boneskinner and not realizing what's going on. T1 fractals are doing this much better!

    That's an assumption of yours based on little facts. You don't know whether Anet is working on another fractal and raid. They typically don't reveal that information until it's practicality ready. So no, it's not "obvious".

    You can't prove me wrong neither. Interestingly both parts - fractals & raids - haven't seen any content updates since above mentioned time frames. I wouldn't say anything if at least one of them would have gotten a new level/wing. But both aren't even mentioned in their very dilettantisch and amateurish road map. We all know they are horrible in communicating but they could just have told to the audience that the next thing for instanced content is either a raid or a fractal. Since they refuse to do that but talking about reworking the WvW mount shows enough for me personally that instanced content is only directed at strikes at the moment. The reasons for that were explained by me in a previous post above.

    I don't believe that Anet intended strikes to be another full-fledged game mode. Based on the rewards so far, this seems to be the case. Anet could certainly add some RNG rewards for those players that need a carrot to chase or need to get their next dopamine fix. Their primary intention with strikes still remains to be what they've already stated.

    Thanks for underlining again that 2 full-fledged game modes are decomposing but we have strikes with bad rewards. All hail to them even if they aren't another full-fledged game mode.
    You know what, Ayrilana? Sometimes I'd like to throw the party you do.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020

    I love boneskinner, though I find it a bit sad that the mechanic is so unwieldy that its easier to just bring 2-4 healers and ignore the mechanic.

    Theres one important thing: everyone has to STACK - and MOVE - tightly. People start dieing when they move off the stack, or stand in the red circles. To keep the red circles contained in a small area you need to stack tightly. And in that regard I think the boneskinner strike is quite nicely done on difficulty. You have to watch your surrounding and stack properly.. two quite important skills to learn for any instanced pve content. Or if you want to do the mechanic with your raidsquad, you have to watch for the "tell" when to move out behind the torches to re-light them. While this isnt a raidmechanic per se, its a coordinated mechanic.
    On the other hand, the learning curve isnt too steep. After a few tries everyone that can read squad-chat and is willing to learn can do the stacking part. It takes a few tries more to get outside to the torches on time, but so far Ive only ever had 1 raidsquad bother with the mechanic anyway.

    Ive solohealed the boneskinner squad, but that was with raid players. If both healers know what they are doing, you can get away with 2. Otherwise you need more.

    a1b95855boneskinner_healstats_tempest.png

    This was with 2 healers (herald and tempest) on the day after boneskinner got "challenging" with a pug squad. The herald had close to 10k healing. So in a "normal" squad you need roughly 20-25k healing output.
    Healscourge on magi tops healtempest btw, I can get ~15k barrier+healing combined.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020

    Is it me or they up the boss again for today ? Half squad were dead at 70% before even reaching the torchs.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They increased (or fixed) the tick damage from not having torches lit so keeping them lit is now required.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They increased (or fixed) the tick damage from not having torches lit so keeping them lit is now required.

    If that's true, it's a very bad change. Players were struggling with lit the torches strategy before, what's the odds of doing it now with the damage amplified :warning:. Heals won't reach them.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eramonster.2718 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They increased (or fixed) the tick damage from not having torches lit so keeping them lit is now required.

    If that's true, it's a very bad change. Players were struggling with lit the torches strategy before, what's the odds of doing it now with the damage amplified :warning:. Heals won't reach them.

    Technically one person with sustain, and can properly dodge the radial attack, can keep them lit until 50%. I did it without issue in a solo instance when doing the torch achievement.

  • banshee.9328banshee.9328 Member ✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020

    Technically one person with sustain, and can properly dodge the radial attack, can keep them lit until 50%. I did it without issue in a solo instance when doing the torch achievement.

    Yes you can enter instance and grind 30 torches one by one lighting them without problems since you dont stand in aura and dpt with one unlit torch is low, but it is not the issue. Before 27jan patch damage done by tormenting aura was significantly lower than now. You could just ignore torches and outheal it. But you can't do it now. It is ok that Anet wants squads to follow mechanics and lit torches but there is something wrong with ticking damage. It is way too high to sustain at 75% where all torches are extinguished by boss's wave thus spreading 25 stacks of torment per second doing ~11k dps which is more or less oneshot for glass cannons. So even while standing near torches at this moment and instantly lighting them, there are casualties.

  • Jojo.6140Jojo.6140 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020

    Yeah this seems to be pretty impossible right now. At 75% when all torches get extinguished, the dmg-ticks are so high that you cant survive for 1 second without healers nearby. That is a problem since the cast for relighting a torch takes like 2 seconds. Also keep in mind that the boneskinner pulls everyone to the center when he puts out the torches. So fastest you could do is blink/shadowstep to a torch and press F instantly, but even then you will go down during the cast and thus not actually light it.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Technically one person with sustain, and can properly dodge the radial attack, can keep them lit until 50%. I did it without issue in a solo instance when doing the torch achievement.

    Show me please how you can keep them lit solo after 75%.

    Edit: You might probably be able to light them if the whole group moves to the same torch after 75%, so healers can keep hp up while someone lights it. Havent tested it though, just an idea that just came to my mind.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Players : ignore mechanics, outheal the dmg
    Anet : kill everybody before mechanics

  • Anet: Increases damage
    Players: Stack more Health and Toughness

    Basically just fill your squad with scourges in full Trailblazers. Even with me playing completely like kitten and in a pug group the encounter is super chill. On the 2nd attempt with the same group I also got the "Hold onto the Light" achievement. Just use spectral grasp instead of blood is power. Once the boneskinner blows out all the torches it a guaranteed achievement because the wisps won't have any torches to put out.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xanthia.7209 said:
    Once the boneskinner blows out all the torches it a guaranteed achievement because the wisps won't have any torches to put out.

    That was my strategy for getting the achievement

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Making trailblazer or minstrel gear for pve is a bit difficult to swallow. :#

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Players : ignore mechanics, outheal the dmg
    Anet : kill everybody before mechanics

    Pretty much this. I tried keeping the torches lit and pretty much died when i did before posting this. It also seemed like the bar, when not broken, would expand the aoe area (and you aren't given much of a window to break it). And requiring a particular gear set, with no natural way to gather it before the encounter from that kind of content, is poor, disconnected design.

    All in alll the community resorted to hard counters because executing the mechanics was ridiculously difficult.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's also bugged (as per dev comment in carousel)

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xanthia.7209 said:
    Anet: Increases damage
    Players: Stack more Health and Toughness

    Basically just fill your squad with scourges in full Trailblazers. Even with me playing completely like kitten and in a pug group the encounter is super chill. On the 2nd attempt with the same group I also got the "Hold onto the Light" achievement. Just use spectral grasp instead of blood is power. Once the boneskinner blows out all the torches it a guaranteed achievement because the wisps won't have any torches to put out.

    Exactly the scenario I'm trying to avoid, resorting to stacking scourge barrier/healers (trailblazer requirement). Also, didn't last long enough to see if the torch pedestals can still be permanently destroyed.

    With the current mechanics, players are bound to take damage even if the mechanics are done. Tweaking the damage won't help, either a killzone or survivable with healers. Not sure what can be done about this to make players do torches. (Eg. Maybe make the Aberrations invul and give player(s) who did torches a temporary buff which allows them to kill minnions. Some melee abberations to avoid stacking reflect :wink:)

  • @Jojo.6140 said:
    Yeah this seems to be pretty impossible right now. At 75% when all torches get extinguished, the dmg-ticks are so high that you cant survive for 1 second without healers nearby. That is a problem since the cast for relighting a torch takes like 2 seconds. Also keep in mind that the boneskinner pulls everyone to the center when he puts out the torches. So fastest you could do is blink/shadowstep to a torch and press F instantly, but even then you will go down during the cast and thus not actually light it.

    The torches get extinguished before the damageing aura appear. So if you light them before that happens your group wont take as much damage. For that you can simply tell people to go behind the torches. That way they will not be sucked into the middle but to the torches instead. That way you can relight them without ports or a shadowstep. Its still a difficult fight but it was a lot of fun tbh. He can stay bugged for longer imo.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    so it easy:
    1) wait 3 week rotation, and get updated boneskinner
    2) get no luck ? write on forum "why it so hard? plaese fix it"
    3) wait 3 week rotation, and get updated boneskinner
    4) get no luck ? write on forum "why it so hard? plaese fix it"
    5) wait 3 week rotation, and get updated boneskinner
    6) get no luck ? write on forum "why it so hard? plaese fix it"
    7) wait 3 week rotation, and get updated boneskinner
    8) profit

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    so it easy:
    1) wait 3 week rotation, and get updated boneskinner
    2) get no luck ? write on forum "why it so hard? plaese fix it"
    3) wait 3 week rotation, and get updated boneskinner
    4) get no luck ? write on forum "why it so hard? plaese fix it"
    5) wait 3 week rotation, and get updated boneskinner
    6) get no luck ? write on forum "why it so hard? plaese fix it"
    7) wait 3 week rotation, and get updated boneskinner
    8) profit

    Hey atleast it feels like we are getting new content pretty often because everytime when boneskinner is weekly strike its difderent than last time 😏😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • I really wish arenanet would do something about this strike mission. Im tired of people just wanting to do the cheap "easy way" instead of actually playing it all everyone is doing is running around in circles on the boss doing dmg. Which is honestly in my opinion is no fun and nothing to learn about it. I hope that arenanet makes it where people can't do that in the strike mission as its so senseless and just a "cheap easy way" for them to finish the strike mission with out doing any mechanics in the strike mission as it should be played. Not this whole ring run around.

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

    Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

    Yes it is, just gobto auric basin and buy bladed armor

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't focus on being top dps, and instead focus on dodging left when you see everyone having glowing orange circles. And dodge the big leap attack.

  • Oogabooga.3812Oogabooga.3812 Member ✭✭✭

    The rezbot heal scourge is pretty much a necessity for newer people if you are just stacking and dodging left. It won’t outheal the damaging boneskinner aura, though, so you will need another pure healer or 2.

    1. Watch your feet for the mass of red/black circles.
    2. When he doesn’t attack for awhile, he’s probably standing up for the cc moments.
    3. Ignore the singular red/black circle afterwards; only move when you see the mass of them.
    4. Ignore the non-cc moments special action key. You’ll probably get caught in the mass of circles during the long aftercast root.
    5. Help rez ASAP.

    I’ve been PUGging it successfully even with only 6 people left alive. But these 6 people are all always watching the circles and rezzing like crazy.
    And if you’re not one of the healers, equipment doesn’t matter terribly much.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ekoknight.2960 said:
    I really wish arenanet would do something about this strike mission. Im tired of people just wanting to do the cheap "easy way" instead of actually playing it all everyone is doing is running around in circles on the boss doing dmg. Which is honestly in my opinion is no fun and nothing to learn about it. I hope that arenanet makes it where people can't do that in the strike mission as its so senseless and just a "cheap easy way" for them to finish the strike mission with out doing any mechanics in the strike mission as it should be played. Not this whole ring run around.

    Same, after it was changed I didn't do it for a while but after EoTN was added I was planning to do weekely strikes for the chest but this single boss has made me say F that.

    I don't like cheating or cheaping bosses like this and atm that is pretty much the only way to do Boneskinner effectively and also the only way most people want to do the boss too so I have lost all interest in doing this strike mission until it's fixed.
    Boneskinner is one of the few bosses in the game atm that I would genuinely call badly designed.. if it wasn't possible for people to use the stack and heal work around I'd expect most players would just skip this boss entirely.
    It's far too difficult for a strike mission boss.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

    Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

    Yes it is, just gobto auric basin and buy bladed armor

    I believe someone else has already said this. This horse was beat. And died. And then raised in undeath by EotN...

    Though this is something frustrating for players who are newer. There's a whole breadth of content in this game and there's a huge difference between QoL for people who understand it vs. People who don't. I barely learned months ago about stat swapping on ascended weapons/armor. This game gets really easy the more you know about it, but until you do, it can feel like a brick wall.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers, so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

    If you are EU i can help with boneskinner.

    hi my husband and me would love to come along as we haven't done the achievement as we have been away for a while now returning and not sure how to start this.

    Death is Energy [DIE] & Bongbong [BB] in FoW server
    Leg champ., champ. magus, champ. phantom & champ. hunter
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, DoD, DwD.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why does the torches go out when you break the bar, that doesn't make sense to me?
    The whole torch mechanic is way too demanding and distracting and requires too much effort to pull of, with specific builds and what not.
    Even if you do it properly you need someone durable and ranged to sit around light the torches. I'm still not sure if it is bugged or not bugged half of the time.
    I thought i was supposed to be one of those mechanics where you go do the thing and return to the group, but most of the time you get chunked by damage and going out of the group is suicide.
    The thing is supposed to be pugable you know.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    Do boneskiner each day.
    You need 2 hfb, heal alac, heal srourge, druid .. In guldward there members find more easy than dps, trust me.
    After that you need 5 dps. It most hardest part. Explain: dps is who do dps, but not only have dps gear.

    Also some ppl ask ping(hold ctrl and spam) kp from cm100 fractal, or li(li is from raids).

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    Do boneskiner each day.
    You need 2 hfb, heal alac, heal srourge, druid .. In guldward there members find more easy than dps, trust me.
    After that you need 5 dps. It most hardest part. Explain: dps is who do dps, but not only have dps gear.

    Also some ppl ask ping(hold ctrl and spam) kp from cm100 fractal, or li(li is from raids).

    Hahahaha kp from raids and cm fractals so you can do beginner group content. Hahahaha

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Hahahaha kp from raids and cm fractals so you can do beginner group content.

    yes, sometime for that beginner content you should have 700 li to get normal party. Some ask 250, some 20 ..
    I am not say that this ok or bad. It just fact.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Super Hayes.6890Super Hayes.6890 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Glad I found this thread. The most explanation or help I ever recieved while attempting this strike was getting kicked by the squad commander and when I whispered them the reply was "learn to play." After a more heated exchange they finally explained why they kicked me and the crappy part is I had another build I could have swapped to that addressed their issues. They said nothing, just kicked! My experience likely isn't common but that was the opposite of learning anything and it really bummed me out. I haven't been back to strikes as I feel like a burden and no mechanics are explained unless the other players choose to explain them. Not a great setup for "learn to play."

    I may try again after putting the info in this thread to use. Thank you to everyone for taking the time to post here. It feels good to not be clueless on the boneskinner strike finally. Shame I had to go outside of the game to learn the mechanics.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it. Whisper needs its many bugs fixed, and Boneskinner needs nerfed. To fix Boneskinner...

    • The ground AOE needs to be slower paced and have a longer warning time, for multiple reasons. First is so players actually have time to see it and react; second so players have at least a few seconds to set their feet, use a few skills and just BREATHE. Is that too much to ask?
    • The ground AOE needs its graphics simplified. The waving black fingers filling the ground is hell on frame rates. I think that's actually part of why the AOE is so lethal, because the way it draws and lags, it often seems to just appear out of nowhere. So remove the wavy fingers; simple black nasty circles will get the job done.
    • More philosophically, Anet needs to recognize that the vast majority of people who play GW2 are casuals of varying degree, a fair proportion of whom play GW2 specifically because it isn't structured around a toxic end game raid grind like WoW. Such people do not want to be forced into group content or harder content just to finish an episode achievement like the "Forged Steel" title or "Shiver" emote, which should be obtainable in more accessible ways than strike missions, or demanding perfection in story missions like LS2 and HoT. GW2 is not a hardcore game and should not try to be.
  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Jimbru.6014 said:

    • The ground AOE needs to be slower paced and have a longer warning time, for multiple reasons. First is so players actually have time to see it and react; second so players have at least a few seconds to set their feet, use a few skills and just BREATHE. Is that too much to ask?

    It’s long enough and the attack is pretty predictable.

    • The ground AOE needs its graphics simplified. The waving black fingers filling the ground is hell on frame rates. I think that's actually part of why the AOE is so lethal, because the way it draws and lags, it often seems to just appear out of nowhere. So remove the wavy fingers; simple black nasty circles will get the job done.

    There are orange circles. After that, they have the typical AoE red circle borders.

    • More philosophically, Anet needs to recognize that the vast majority of people who play GW2 are casuals of varying degree, a fair proportion of whom play GW2 specifically because it isn't structured around a toxic end game raid grind like WoW. Such people do not want to be forced into group content or harder content just to finish an episode achievement like the "Forged Steel" title or "Shiver" emote, which should be obtainable in more accessible ways than strike missions, or demanding perfection in story missions like LS2 and HoT. GW2 is not a hardcore game and should not try to be.

    Casual or not has no bearing on someone’s ability to do strikes or even raids. GW2 is not a solo game so expect to have to do some group content.

    GW2 is far from being a hardcore game. Its extreme distance from that is probably one of the reasons it’s suffering today compared to other MMOs. There needs to be more balance between the hyper casual “I don’t want to play with others” side and the “hardcore” side.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    So the only way I've been able to reliably PuG boneskinner and Jormag is by stacking healers (and running my auramancer in whisper). I'd been having trouble with whisper ever since I came back, but then i realized, after I took my auramancer in again, that I may have been carrying my group before I took my last break. I prefer at least 3 healers on Boneskinner, but 2 works if they're worth their salt, if you have heals and everyone dodges, it's fine, so I think that's okay. I don't like whisper. That last phase is a poopfest. Not to mention buggy. I can't always clearly discern all the mechanics going on there's so much.. I did 3 healers on my last whisper run. 2 might be okay, but healbrand and auramancer take the cake in terms of making it puggable. The perma protection from auramancer (and range on shout heals) and the blocks from HB make the chains and some of the other mechanics less brutal. Granted, your team mates still have to avoid the mechanics, they're just given more time to with those buffers. Because protection doesn't keep you alive forever and you can only block so much, there's a limit. What really makes them hard is that there's no proper guides on them and people don't know what to build. or how to run them. I do have to say though, my most unsuccessful runs have been commanders trying to assemble raid meta comps, as opposed to survivability. Sure you make not get 2 bonus chests, but they're puggable if you focus on surviving first. The DPS bar isn't really that high.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    So the only way I've been able to reliably PuG boneskinner and Jormag is by stacking healers (and running my auramancer in whisper). I'd been having trouble with whisper ever since I came back, but then i realized, after I took my auramancer in again, that I may have been carrying my group before I took my last break. I prefer at least 3 healers on Boneskinner, but 2 works if they're worth their salt, if you have heals and everyone dodges, it's fine, so I think that's okay. I don't like whisper. That last phase is a poopfest. Not to mention buggy. I can't always clearly discern all the mechanics going on there's so much.. I did 3 healers on my last whisper run. 2 might be okay, but healbrand and auramancer take the cake in terms of making it puggable. The perma protection from auramancer (and range on shout heals) and the blocks from HB make the chains and some of the other mechanics less brutal. Granted, your team mates still have to avoid the mechanics, they're just given more time to with those buffers. Because protection doesn't keep you alive forever and you can only block so much, there's a limit. What really makes them hard is that there's no proper guides on them and people don't know what to build. or how to run them. I do have to say though, my most unsuccessful runs have been commanders trying to assemble raid meta comps, as opposed to survivability. Sure you make not get 2 bonus chests, but they're puggable if you focus on surviving first. The DPS bar isn't really that high.

    You can cheese the last phase of Whisper with I think it was Flesh Worm. You won’t have to deal with the orbs.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    So the only way I've been able to reliably PuG boneskinner and Jormag is by stacking healers (and running my auramancer in whisper). I'd been having trouble with whisper ever since I came back, but then i realized, after I took my auramancer in again, that I may have been carrying my group before I took my last break. I prefer at least 3 healers on Boneskinner, but 2 works if they're worth their salt, if you have heals and everyone dodges, it's fine, so I think that's okay. I don't like whisper. That last phase is a poopfest. Not to mention buggy. I can't always clearly discern all the mechanics going on there's so much.. I did 3 healers on my last whisper run. 2 might be okay, but healbrand and auramancer take the cake in terms of making it puggable. The perma protection from auramancer (and range on shout heals) and the blocks from HB make the chains and some of the other mechanics less brutal. Granted, your team mates still have to avoid the mechanics, they're just given more time to with those buffers. Because protection doesn't keep you alive forever and you can only block so much, there's a limit. What really makes them hard is that there's no proper guides on them and people don't know what to build. or how to run them. I do have to say though, my most unsuccessful runs have been commanders trying to assemble raid meta comps, as opposed to survivability. Sure you make not get 2 bonus chests, but they're puggable if you focus on surviving first. The DPS bar isn't really that high.

    You can cheese the last phase of Whisper with I think it was Flesh Worm. You won’t have to deal with the orbs.

    I don't think cheese mechanics are anything we should rely on people new to raiding to do off the bat. I'll for certain try to spread this knowledge, but I don't consider it good design, even if there's a workaround. Interestingly enough, the player in the video didn't have 25 stacks of might at end (maybe 9, but it's hard to know how much was self buff vs. others), but did have regen. it also didn't have alacrity and quickness. This basically means that if it was a raid meta comp, that raid meta mechanics weren't working towards the end at the last phase. Even with no orbs. Though im' interested to know what composition this top raid guild was using. This was a GS power chrono it looks like.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    So the only way I've been able to reliably PuG boneskinner and Jormag is by stacking healers (and running my auramancer in whisper). I'd been having trouble with whisper ever since I came back, but then i realized, after I took my auramancer in again, that I may have been carrying my group before I took my last break. I prefer at least 3 healers on Boneskinner, but 2 works if they're worth their salt, if you have heals and everyone dodges, it's fine, so I think that's okay. I don't like whisper. That last phase is a poopfest. Not to mention buggy. I can't always clearly discern all the mechanics going on there's so much.. I did 3 healers on my last whisper run. 2 might be okay, but healbrand and auramancer take the cake in terms of making it puggable. The perma protection from auramancer (and range on shout heals) and the blocks from HB make the chains and some of the other mechanics less brutal. Granted, your team mates still have to avoid the mechanics, they're just given more time to with those buffers. Because protection doesn't keep you alive forever and you can only block so much, there's a limit. What really makes them hard is that there's no proper guides on them and people don't know what to build. or how to run them. I do have to say though, my most unsuccessful runs have been commanders trying to assemble raid meta comps, as opposed to survivability. Sure you make not get 2 bonus chests, but they're puggable if you focus on surviving first. The DPS bar isn't really that high.

    You can cheese the last phase of Whisper with I think it was Flesh Worm. You won’t have to deal with the orbs.

    I don't think cheese mechanics are anything we should rely on people new to raiding to do off the bat. I'll for certain try to spread this knowledge, but I don't consider it good design, even if there's a workaround. Interestingly enough, the player in the video didn't have 25 stacks of might at end (maybe 9, but it's hard to know how much was self buff vs. others), but did have regen. it also didn't have alacrity and quickness. This basically means that if it was a raid meta comp, that raid meta mechanics weren't working towards the end at the last phase. Even with no orbs. Though im' interested to know what composition this top raid guild was using. This was a GS power chrono it looks like.

    I wouldn't even consider that strategy full on cheese and I do like boss design that allows players to come up with creative tools to circumvent or change up mechanics (as long as it doesn't completely trivialize an encounter) and don't consider it bad design.
    I don't see circumventing the orb spread at WoJ with a Flesh Wurm to be all that different from circumventing Hands at Deimos with a Handkiter, kiting Flak shots at Sabetha, etc.
    It's just a creative and sound strategy to solve a problem. That is what makes fights interesting.

    The reason they didn't have boons in that video didn't have anything to do with Raid Meta comps not working there, besides them clearly not running a Meta comp.
    Ideally you want a guardian to run Stand Your Ground at WoJ to pop right after everyone is back after the 25% clone phase to prevent the knockback, and then just all stack slightly out of melee range and quickly DPS it down, with a ranged weapon option, fully buffed.

    Also if you are struggling with WoJ and spread downs, or just in general especially on Boneskinner, a Heal Scourge is highly recommended.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    So the only way I've been able to reliably PuG boneskinner and Jormag is by stacking healers (and running my auramancer in whisper). I'd been having trouble with whisper ever since I came back, but then i realized, after I took my auramancer in again, that I may have been carrying my group before I took my last break. I prefer at least 3 healers on Boneskinner, but 2 works if they're worth their salt, if you have heals and everyone dodges, it's fine, so I think that's okay. I don't like whisper. That last phase is a poopfest. Not to mention buggy. I can't always clearly discern all the mechanics going on there's so much.. I did 3 healers on my last whisper run. 2 might be okay, but healbrand and auramancer take the cake in terms of making it puggable. The perma protection from auramancer (and range on shout heals) and the blocks from HB make the chains and some of the other mechanics less brutal. Granted, your team mates still have to avoid the mechanics, they're just given more time to with those buffers. Because protection doesn't keep you alive forever and you can only block so much, there's a limit. What really makes them hard is that there's no proper guides on them and people don't know what to build. or how to run them. I do have to say though, my most unsuccessful runs have been commanders trying to assemble raid meta comps, as opposed to survivability. Sure you make not get 2 bonus chests, but they're puggable if you focus on surviving first. The DPS bar isn't really that high.

    You can cheese the last phase of Whisper with I think it was Flesh Worm. You won’t have to deal with the orbs.

    I don't think cheese mechanics are anything we should rely on people new to raiding to do off the bat. I'll for certain try to spread this knowledge, but I don't consider it good design, even if there's a workaround. Interestingly enough, the player in the video didn't have 25 stacks of might at end (maybe 9, but it's hard to know how much was self buff vs. others), but did have regen. it also didn't have alacrity and quickness. This basically means that if it was a raid meta comp, that raid meta mechanics weren't working towards the end at the last phase. Even with no orbs. Though im' interested to know what composition this top raid guild was using. This was a GS power chrono it looks like.

    I wouldn't even consider that strategy full on cheese and I do like boss design that allows players to come up with creative tools to circumvent or change up mechanics (as long as it doesn't completely trivialize an encounter) and don't consider it bad design.
    I don't see circumventing the orb spread at WoJ with a Flesh Wurm to be all that different from circumventing Hands at Deimos with a Handkiter, kiting Flak shots at Sabetha, etc.
    It's just a creative and sound strategy to solve a problem. That is what makes fights interesting.

    The reason they didn't have boons in that video didn't have anything to do with Raid Meta comps not working there, besides them clearly not running a Meta comp.
    Ideally you want a guardian to run Stand Your Ground at WoJ to pop right after everyone is back after the 25% clone phase to prevent the knockback, and then just all stack slightly out of melee range and quickly DPS it down, with a ranged weapon option, fully buffed.

    Also if you are struggling with WoJ and spread downs, or just in general especially on Boneskinner, a Heal Scourge is highly recommended.

    I don't have issues with the strategy being there. I have issues relying in some rando to do a very specific thing at a very specific time or the whole group wipes, especially when it's supposed to be a learning experience. That's potentially setting up 9 other people for failure, while they're learning content. If anet thinks that wurm juking was the intended strategy for the last phase and it's completely fine, i'm going to flat out say it's terrible design.

    Also i've had people try wurm juking in pugs that have failed fyi.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    So the only way I've been able to reliably PuG boneskinner and Jormag is by stacking healers (and running my auramancer in whisper). I'd been having trouble with whisper ever since I came back, but then i realized, after I took my auramancer in again, that I may have been carrying my group before I took my last break. I prefer at least 3 healers on Boneskinner, but 2 works if they're worth their salt, if you have heals and everyone dodges, it's fine, so I think that's okay. I don't like whisper. That last phase is a poopfest. Not to mention buggy. I can't always clearly discern all the mechanics going on there's so much.. I did 3 healers on my last whisper run. 2 might be okay, but healbrand and auramancer take the cake in terms of making it puggable. The perma protection from auramancer (and range on shout heals) and the blocks from HB make the chains and some of the other mechanics less brutal. Granted, your team mates still have to avoid the mechanics, they're just given more time to with those buffers. Because protection doesn't keep you alive forever and you can only block so much, there's a limit. What really makes them hard is that there's no proper guides on them and people don't know what to build. or how to run them. I do have to say though, my most unsuccessful runs have been commanders trying to assemble raid meta comps, as opposed to survivability. Sure you make not get 2 bonus chests, but they're puggable if you focus on surviving first. The DPS bar isn't really that high.

    You can cheese the last phase of Whisper with I think it was Flesh Worm. You won’t have to deal with the orbs.

    I don't think cheese mechanics are anything we should rely on people new to raiding to do off the bat. I'll for certain try to spread this knowledge, but I don't consider it good design, even if there's a workaround. Interestingly enough, the player in the video didn't have 25 stacks of might at end (maybe 9, but it's hard to know how much was self buff vs. others), but did have regen. it also didn't have alacrity and quickness. This basically means that if it was a raid meta comp, that raid meta mechanics weren't working towards the end at the last phase. Even with no orbs. Though im' interested to know what composition this top raid guild was using. This was a GS power chrono it looks like.

    I wouldn't even consider that strategy full on cheese and I do like boss design that allows players to come up with creative tools to circumvent or change up mechanics (as long as it doesn't completely trivialize an encounter) and don't consider it bad design.
    I don't see circumventing the orb spread at WoJ with a Flesh Wurm to be all that different from circumventing Hands at Deimos with a Handkiter, kiting Flak shots at Sabetha, etc.
    It's just a creative and sound strategy to solve a problem. That is what makes fights interesting.

    The reason they didn't have boons in that video didn't have anything to do with Raid Meta comps not working there, besides them clearly not running a Meta comp.
    Ideally you want a guardian to run Stand Your Ground at WoJ to pop right after everyone is back after the 25% clone phase to prevent the knockback, and then just all stack slightly out of melee range and quickly DPS it down, with a ranged weapon option, fully buffed.

    Also if you are struggling with WoJ and spread downs, or just in general especially on Boneskinner, a Heal Scourge is highly recommended.

    I don't have issues with the strategy being there. I have issues relying in some rando to do a very specific thing at a very specific time or the whole group wipes, especially when it's supposed to be a learning experience. That's potentially setting up 9 other people for failure, while they're learning content. If anet thinks that wurm juking was the intended strategy for the last phase and it's completely fine, i'm going to flat out say it's terrible design.

    Also i've had people try wurm juking in pugs that have failed fyi.

    It doesn't set the group up though, the phase is perfectly doable without that strategy if people don't go into panic headless chicken mode, which is an important lesson to learn in preparation for raids.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    So the only way I've been able to reliably PuG boneskinner and Jormag is by stacking healers (and running my auramancer in whisper). I'd been having trouble with whisper ever since I came back, but then i realized, after I took my auramancer in again, that I may have been carrying my group before I took my last break. I prefer at least 3 healers on Boneskinner, but 2 works if they're worth their salt, if you have heals and everyone dodges, it's fine, so I think that's okay. I don't like whisper. That last phase is a poopfest. Not to mention buggy. I can't always clearly discern all the mechanics going on there's so much.. I did 3 healers on my last whisper run. 2 might be okay, but healbrand and auramancer take the cake in terms of making it puggable. The perma protection from auramancer (and range on shout heals) and the blocks from HB make the chains and some of the other mechanics less brutal. Granted, your team mates still have to avoid the mechanics, they're just given more time to with those buffers. Because protection doesn't keep you alive forever and you can only block so much, there's a limit. What really makes them hard is that there's no proper guides on them and people don't know what to build. or how to run them. I do have to say though, my most unsuccessful runs have been commanders trying to assemble raid meta comps, as opposed to survivability. Sure you make not get 2 bonus chests, but they're puggable if you focus on surviving first. The DPS bar isn't really that high.

    You can cheese the last phase of Whisper with I think it was Flesh Worm. You won’t have to deal with the orbs.

    I don't think cheese mechanics are anything we should rely on people new to raiding to do off the bat. I'll for certain try to spread this knowledge, but I don't consider it good design, even if there's a workaround. Interestingly enough, the player in the video didn't have 25 stacks of might at end (maybe 9, but it's hard to know how much was self buff vs. others), but did have regen. it also didn't have alacrity and quickness. This basically means that if it was a raid meta comp, that raid meta mechanics weren't working towards the end at the last phase. Even with no orbs. Though im' interested to know what composition this top raid guild was using. This was a GS power chrono it looks like.

    Kitty also quite dislikes cheesing mechs much (except Gorseval's wall 'cause people haven't got it right since 2017) as that doesn't actually teach how to play better, only how to cheat better. For that reason Kitty's kinda wondered why many raiders whine "content is too easy, we need more challenging content q.q" when many of them try to find easiest shortcut to mitigate the challenge. In other words, to cheese the content. What's the point of challenging content if people take challenge away?
    As for the comp on cheese video, guess it's a good time for Kitty's "what could be improved?"-lesson (Read: "How Kitty would've done it better?"). The comp was apparently druid+healscourge+chrono+soulbeast+banners/staff tempest+alacrigade+DD+reaper+dps berserker. So, for starters, no quickness aside from chrono's Time Warp and self-quickness on soulbeast, chrono and reaper. An StM 100% BD chrono or 2 dps quickbrands would've been a huge improvement in that regard.
    The might could've been better as druid's healing style wasn't optimal and people don't usually build scourge and tempest in a boonsome way like Kitty does (and Whisper of Jormag shows quite well why Kitty insists on healers bringing might and at least some fury instead of being pure healers due to low opportunity cost) which means low-to-nonexistent fury and lacking might.

    When Kitty's druiding at 100% effort (which is extremely rare, though Boneskinner requires 90%), she uses warhorn 5 off-cooldown to keep up swiftness, fury, regen and some might. To keep up might on squad and to keep squad as healthy as possible, a good druid enters CA as often as possible and uses 432(-spirits-4). A greedy druid might add CA5 into the mix, like Kitty does 'cause higher might numbers. Never spam CA1 as it has extremely small radius and healing power so rather exit CA to conserve energy than spam CA1. Entering CA should only be delayed for 4-5 seconds max. if there's clearly a mechanic incoming and the heals would go to waste due to spreading/you'll need all possible healing after that. Delaying CA any further means might dropping and it has short cooldown so delaying means missing out on potential boon/heal output.

    As for heal tempest, this one was running staff which is specialized on pure resses, heals and regen though it also provides defensive boons and some might through shout spam if tempest uses Tempestuous Aria-trait (which should be ran along with Elemental Bastion and Powerful Aura for that insane synergy they have) and tempest has adequate boon duration (which staff tempests rarely do 'cause magi's). Running Air as 3rd spec also gives squad-wide fury through auras but that competes with Earth's Protection and thus is rarely used. As a good compromise, Kitty personally runs Pack runes to provide at least 60% fury uptime for her sub. It does mean about 16-17% nerf to heals but staff tempest is 3rd strongest healer already and can afford it if you actually spam shouts and blast fields on it. Auto-attack is a strong heal but auras and water blasts are stronger. If there's a druid in squad, though, Stone Spirit can do the protection and staff tempest can run Air-spec with Monk runes to provide fury for all.

    Heal scourge isn't known for its boon output and it certainly doesn't have much: just lots of might and regen. But if you go for 100% boon duration on it, Abrasive Grit alone keeps up about 8-10 stacks of might for 10 through Desert Empowerment's "Barrier on F1" and F3 spam. Sand Flare gives a couple stacks for 5, Torch 5 "Oppressive Collapse gives about 14-18 might for 5 on average, Dessicate keeps up 4 stacks for 5 and Blood is Power keeps up 10 stacks for 5 if Curses-traited though that's pretty much overkill unless you're the only mightbot in squad. And kinda even then. Since most of scourge's might scourges are 5-target, except 8-10 stacks for 10 from Shade skills), scourge needs to be in separate sub to allow random distribution which does cover the whole squad due to people moving around. Random distribution ofc requires some surplus due to inoptimal distribution but scourge can pull that off. Kitty's got a long video about that. And if you're a charr, you can outfury druids through Battle Roar and Pack runes which are enough to give full fury for 5. Unless they're using tiger but that's cheating (and Kitty likes providing more than full fury for 10 as druid). And though people like to say "but Monk runes are must for healer!", scourge doesn't benefit nearly as much as others from those due to outgoing heals not working on barriers. They speed up resses and improve the healing from Transfusion/F-Well of Blood, but scourge's actual main form of healing is damage mitigation through barrier, not just ressing everyone. If pure ressbot was needed, people could just run TB's blood magic condi scourge with Mercy runes. Horrible idea but at least it'd do 75% of full damage, proper epi and it would be super-tanky through Parasitic Contagion. Or just a viper's BM scourge. Healing gears just to ress the people you let down by not healing kinda sounds redundant when scourge can do so much more.

    Though Kitty's personal favourite choice of boonbot for Whisper and other strikes where people don't stack well is scepter+warhorn aura tempest. By spamming all shouts and pre-casting Wildfire+Phoenix+Dragon's Tooth, you can get yourself to about 15ish might in seconds and then spread it to allies with Heat Sync and then just rotate Fire-Earth (Sand Squall for boon extension)-Water (for heals) through the fight spamming shouts and skills and the squad has most excellent boon uptimes through the fight. Heat Sync and shouts have massive radius and thus even spreading out widely doesn't usually drop the boons at all and the other healers can focus 100% on healing without worrying about boon output. That probably sounds like invalidating Kitty's earlier point of "why Kitty insists on healers bringing might and at least some fury instead of being pure healers due to low opportunity cost" but warhorn boon tempest isn't used as healer in every single squad and Kitty's ended up cursing low fury uptime in pretty much every squad where she's been power dps and her sub's healer was heal scourge, staff tempest or scrapper. Feels sad as reaper trying hard to put the supports' boon efforts to good use by dpsing well. ._.

    But then, onto the actual topic of this thread: Boneskinner does more damage than any other boss in this game if you don't do torches. Yesterday Kitty got a log where she took over 1,1 MILLION damage through a 6,5 min fight as druid (Kitty had to try healing harder than ever in last 2 years on that kill). At other bosses she usually takes about 120-250k max, about 300-350k at SH. That essentially means 3-9x the damage pressure compared to ANY raid bosses. So, the according to that log Kitty got from that kill, she essentially took 2,9k damage per second and she wasn't eating those claw AoEs. When it comes to healing out that damage, only heal scrapper (6,5-7,2k/s), renegade(6,0-6,4k/s) and staff tempest(~5k/s) can purely outheal that damage to their subgroup according to maths Kitty did a few months ago when she was comparing healers' max. heal output in optimal situations. Mightbot Druid is about 2,7k/s even with optimal rotation and gears, Firebrand is about 3,5k+aegis (but suffers from very bursty heals compared to rene/temp/scrap), deadeye/berserker/chrono/scourge each around 2,3-2,5k/s. (Kitty's created all those heal builds, mathed and tested.)

    Therefore, if Kitty were to choose an all-stars comp, she'd go with power alacrigade+mace healbrand+spirit soulbeast+berserker+power scrapper/condi quickbrand+heal engineer+2 power scrappers/mightbot healscourge. Scrappers are basically immortal and they can ress through Function Gyros and they actually do decent dps. Heal scrapper provides extremely high heals to keep others alive. Heal scourge is a good backup with barriers, fury, might and resses so healbrand can focus on blocking and healing and quickness. Power alacrigade with Tablet nullifies wisps and gives more heals with Soulcleave. Spirits from soulbeast are nice and banner warr likes Spotter. Condi Quickbrand gives some blocks and gooood dps while also providing quickness to sub.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Strikes were supposed to be a gateway to raiding. Instead, Whisper and Boneskinner especially have become roadblocks. I have been told by a number of experienced raiders that there are at least a couple of raid bosses that are legit easier than those two, and I can believe it.

    That's mostly a perception thing as the average quality of Strike groups is significantly lower than that of Raid groups, making them appear a lot more even than they actually are. Even experienced Raiders generally slack a lot more in Strikes, because they can.

    A good group can full clear all strikes (5 bosses) in ~15 minutes and if an experienced 10 man group approaches them with the same dedication as they would a Raid Wing, they are practically just sneezing the bosses over.

    So while Cairn with 7-8 well played 30k DPS players feels easier than WoJ or Bone with 5 <10k DPS players who make plenty mistakes, if you were to take the same group into the respective other fight the difference in difficulty would be very apparent.

    I think WoJ and Boneskinner are placed quite well in their difficulty, putting Strikes in a good middle of the road position - although that doesn't mean there can't be more Strikes of a bit lower difficulty in the future again, I don't think these require any nerfs.

    So the only way I've been able to reliably PuG boneskinner and Jormag is by stacking healers (and running my auramancer in whisper). I'd been having trouble with whisper ever since I came back, but then i realized, after I took my auramancer in again, that I may have been carrying my group before I took my last break. I prefer at least 3 healers on Boneskinner, but 2 works if they're worth their salt, if you have heals and everyone dodges, it's fine, so I think that's okay. I don't like whisper. That last phase is a poopfest. Not to mention buggy. I can't always clearly discern all the mechanics going on there's so much.. I did 3 healers on my last whisper run. 2 might be okay, but healbrand and auramancer take the cake in terms of making it puggable. The perma protection from auramancer (and range on shout heals) and the blocks from HB make the chains and some of the other mechanics less brutal. Granted, your team mates still have to avoid the mechanics, they're just given more time to with those buffers. Because protection doesn't keep you alive forever and you can only block so much, there's a limit. What really makes them hard is that there's no proper guides on them and people don't know what to build. or how to run them. I do have to say though, my most unsuccessful runs have been commanders trying to assemble raid meta comps, as opposed to survivability. Sure you make not get 2 bonus chests, but they're puggable if you focus on surviving first. The DPS bar isn't really that high.

    You can cheese the last phase of Whisper with I think it was Flesh Worm. You won’t have to deal with the orbs.

    I don't think cheese mechanics are anything we should rely on people new to raiding to do off the bat. I'll for certain try to spread this knowledge, but I don't consider it good design, even if there's a workaround. Interestingly enough, the player in the video didn't have 25 stacks of might at end (maybe 9, but it's hard to know how much was self buff vs. others), but did have regen. it also didn't have alacrity and quickness. This basically means that if it was a raid meta comp, that raid meta mechanics weren't working towards the end at the last phase. Even with no orbs. Though im' interested to know what composition this top raid guild was using. This was a GS power chrono it looks like.

    Kitty also quite dislikes cheesing mechs much (except Gorseval's wall 'cause people haven't got it right since 2017) as that doesn't actually teach how to play better, only how to cheat better. For that reason Kitty's kinda wondered why many raiders whine "content is too easy, we need more challenging content q.q" when many of them try to find easiest shortcut to mitigate the challenge. In other words, to cheese the content. What's the point of challenging content if people take challenge away?

    Those people want content that's challenging even if they try their hardest to beat it. They don't want to purposefully cripple themselves and not use creative solutions to problems they have come up with just to be challenged.

    Game knowledge and creativity (external mastery) as well as mechanical skill (internal mastery) are two different skills that can and should be challenged by a game.

    If an encounter just challenges Game knowledge and creativity and the fight is completely trivialized by a solution to that and offers nothing for skilled players to challenge themselves on after it has been figured out it gets boring longterm.
    If an encounter is just a numeric challenge, aka no mechanics that need to be thought about and creatively circumvented but rather for example just a tight DPS check, it feels like a boring fight right off the bat, especially for players who already are mechanically skilled.

    Players who whine about content being too easy after "cheesing" it (which imo isn't cheating but just a cleaver engagement with the game mechanics) are simply looking for a different kind of challenge.

    A well designed boss intended to be difficult incorporates both aspects of mastery over/in a game.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019