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The amount of damage all the squads I've run have taken is insane. We've ran as much as 2-3 healers with people trying to keep torches lit and we all die. I'm super pissed too because it used to be really easy, so it makes people not try to figure it out again & strategy discussions that much harder because they still remember the December tank and spank. How have you successfully pugged this? What were you running?

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You either do the following:

  • Keep every torch lit and break its defiance bar every time
  • Stack on the boss with 3ish healers, move together to keep AoE’s from being spread, ignore torches

The first option is pretty much impractical with pugs as there’s a severe player skill issue in this game.

Having a heal scourge and heal renegade as two of the healers has been very helpful in my experience with pug groups.

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Command a squad of ten with a proper squad composition like: 1 druid, 1 heal, 1 bs, 2 chronos and 5 dps. After this tell the squad to skip torches and stack on the tag, stacking is really important as that way the AOEs that stays on the ground are not all over the arena but instead in one place(never stack in front of the boss!), also tell the squad to dodge AOEs clockwise everytime(that way there is always clean spot to stand). CC fast when breakbar is up.When boneskinner jumps off from the middle, both sub groups should get aegis or barrier for his jump attack, dodge works too. After that just repeat.

For the squad composition, it can be also ala rene and quickbrands and 3rd healer if needed.

EDIT: scourge heal works well here as it can pull downed players away from AOEs where it would be otherwise almost impossible to rez them. Boss also spawns mobs around him, classes that can use pull skills without losing too much dmg should pull those mobs inside the stack for cleave dmg. Projectile blocks/reflects or necromancer epidemic can also be helpful against these mobs.

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I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers, so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers, so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

If you are EU i can help with boneskinner.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers,

No one has every said that gear is an issue with raids. No one worth their salt or their right mind. There is literally budget builds on youtube as old as early HoT. The most common mention is always: get zerker gear or magi gear, both of which are very cheap on the TP.

@Firebeard.1746 said:so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

Requiring a certain group composition or players full-filling certain roles is at the very core of raiding. This does require players being flexible and willing to take on those responsibilities.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers,

No one has every said that gear is an issue with raids. No one worth their salt or their right mind. There is literally budget builds on youtube as old as early HoT. The most common mention is always: get zerker gear or magi gear, both of which are very cheap on the TP.

I have already proven to you in previous discussions this isn't the case. There you go, insulting me again "no one worth their salt or right mind" I seriously don't know how you aren't banned from these forums with your comments like this when I clearly stated that's what I believed. Personal attacks are supposed to be agaisnt the rules. Does Anet hold you up for some reason? Are you an employee? Or are you a moderator? Or their friend?

@Firebeard.1746 said:so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

Requiring a certain group composition or players full-filling certain roles is at the very core of raiding. This does require players being flexible and willing to take on those responsibilities.

Okay sure, let's require people who are raid training using strikes in new accounts to be able to pull multiple roles out of their butts with no preparation given from the content itself. Sounds about right.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers,

No one has every said that gear is an issue with raids. No one worth their salt or their right mind. There is literally budget builds on youtube as old as early HoT. The most common mention is always: get zerker gear or magi gear, both of which are very cheap on the TP.

I have already proven to you in previous discussions this isn't the case. There you go, insulting me again "no one worth their salt or right mind" I seriously don't know how you aren't banned from these forums with your comments like this.

No experienced raider has every said it's about the gear. I don;t care what inexperienced people have been saying. I will repeat, there is literally budget builds which are years old, here a fast search on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeRhzoSKsk literally a 40 gold budget build for the MOST expensive class (chrono back then, this video is 3+ years old).

Yes, sometimes people experienced with the content have been correct.

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

Requiring a certain group composition or players full-filling certain roles is at the very core of raiding. This does require players being flexible and willing to take on those responsibilities.

Okay sure, let's require people who are raiding to be able to pull multiple roles out of their butts with no preparation given from the content itself. Sounds about right.

That's what the content is for right? To tell people that someone has to do certain mechanics. The mechanics are easy enough in strikes. Or how do you propose people develop those skills?

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@Jayden Reese.9542 said:You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

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Okay sure, let's require people who are raiding to be able to pull multiple roles out of their butts with no preparation given from the content itself. Sounds about right.

That's what the content is for right? To tell people that someone has to do certain mechanics. The mechanics are easy enough in strikes. Or how do you propose people develop those skills?

People previously in the thread stated the mechanics aren't doable with a PuG and chessing it is easier. You obviously just came here to troll me.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

Boon duration was harder to acquire than concentration, and it was necessary more than conc now, just saying. But keep fishing. Also there are budget builds for exotic druid builds which do not use harrier. It's not the gear which will hold you back, or decide your performance.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

Boon duration was harder to acquire than concentration, and it was necessary more than conc now, just saying. But keep fishing. Also there are budget builds for exotic druid builds which do not use harrier. It's not the gear which will hold you back, or decide your performance.

but if I can only fill one role and we need at least 2-3 players to fill different roles and the player base isn't being prepared through the content to do that, then that's not fishing. It's a broken experience. I do fine in the roles I choose, but yeah it will be a long time before I can even piece together an alacrigade healer for this and by then people will probably just do the next strike. Haven't bought a character slot for druid yet.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

Boon duration was harder to acquire than concentration, and it was necessary more than conc now, just saying. But keep fishing. Also there are budget builds for exotic druid builds which do not use harrier. It's not the gear which will hold you back, or decide your performance.

but if I can only fill one role and we need at least 2-3 players to fill different roles and the player base isn't being prepared through the content to do that, then that's not fishing.

Oh I agree, the player base is not being prepared (unless they've been running fractals). That's what strikes are now for, to show people and encourage everyone who has not been participating in structured group content to broaden their horizon and try new builds. Strikes are literally meant to teach players rudimentary mechanics and basic roles for group content.

@Firebeard.1746 said:It's a broken experience. I do fine in the roles I choose, but yeah it will be a long time before I can even piece together an alacrigade healer for this and by then people will probably just do the next strike. Haven't bought a character slot for druid yet.

Remember that the change to items and select-able stats now makes certain stat combinations available from stat select-able exotics. Harrier is now available from Bladed armor pieces for example (Verdant Brink Armor), which are very easy to acquire in HoT. As well as other exotics from many other places. The same goes for trinkets (which can then be ascended even from both LWS3 and 4). Otherwise supplement with Magi's (for healing) and some Giver's (for healing and concentration) until you have a full set.

EDIT:but before you go off spending gold and time on new gear. That is one of the organizational aspects. You aren't required to full-fill every role. Stay dps, but make friends with 1-2 players who are able and willing to play support classes. Or ask in squad if anyone can switch to one of said classes. All it takes is someone to take initiative and get things going. That's the beauty of group content.

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Instead of just shooting down people giving you the information that you need to succeed, let us know what you are working with (classes) and i'm sure someone will post a budget build that wpuld help you carry dps through.

Best classes that can carry are, Necro, Guardian, Ren, ele and engi (left off ranger as you said you don't have one.)

Each one of those classes can stack magi gear with a heal build and just carry with raw hps. Strikes are not at the point where you need 100% boon uptime to compleate, hell raids aren't even in a spot where you need 100% uptime to compleate.

Boon uptime is only important for speed clears and maximising dps (faster kills do make the encounter easier as you will see less mechanics but not required to finish it)

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@Firebeard.1746 said:I appreciate the comments, thank you both. But I'm also failing to see how this is proper raid training: The biggest issue with GW2 raids, as I've understood it, is the gear barriers, so requiring very specific comps of PuGs is just outright unfair/not helpful imo. Especially when strikes up to this point really haven't given that much gear with selectable stats. Thanks again, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can get this downed at least for the achievement.

You are undergoing the misunderstanding that raids are the step after being level 80. It is recommended to play fractals before starting raids. Is it doable without fractals? Of course but without any proper knowledge of instanced content and a little bit of understanding the gear part it's hard to jump into raiding. Once you start with fractals you'll soon be able to gear several characters with asc gears because you'll get gold + a good chance of ascended chests. The more you step up in levels the easier it'll be to gear additional toons.

One additional note: Gearing isn't expensive as long as you don't begin with the important things like support classes and want them to be geared 100% perfectly. As it was stated above magi gear is enough for a healer. You don't need perfect stats because the players you are facing at start aren't perfect neither. So, take an easy dps class or a warrior and get zerker gear. Or take a magi healer but with such people will call you out if you don't know how to play properly and keep your group alive.Starting with alacrigade or anything related isn't an intelligent way if one has barely any clue about challenging instanced group content and proper group/squad setup. Learn first, master later!

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:You get the noone worth their salt comment is the players that would say you need ascended and not insulting you in any way. I'm sure you already reported it but just letting you know

Sure harriers exotic gear is dirt cheap to acquire /sarcasm. And the builds have changed over time as concentration has been added to the game and some abilities nerfed to compensate.

Boon duration was harder to acquire than concentration, and it was necessary more than conc now, just saying. But keep fishing. Also there are budget builds for exotic druid builds which do not use harrier. It's not the gear which will hold you back, or decide your performance.

but if I can only fill one role and we need at least 2-3 players to fill different roles and the player base isn't being prepared through the content to do that, then that's not fishing.

Oh I agree, the player base is not being prepared (unless they've been running fractals). That's what strikes are now for, to show people and encourage everyone who has not been participating in structured group content to broaden their horizon and try new builds. Strikes are literally meant to teach players rudimentary mechanics and basic roles for group content.

@Firebeard.1746 said:It's a broken experience. I do fine in the roles I choose, but yeah it will be a long time before I can even piece together an alacrigade healer for this and by then people will probably just do the next strike. Haven't bought a character slot for druid yet.

Remember that the change to items and select-able stats now makes certain stat combinations available from stat select-able exotics. Harrier is now available from Bladed armor pieces for example (Verdant Brink Armor), which are very easy to acquire in HoT. As well as other exotics from many other places. The same goes for trinkets (which can then be ascended even from both LWS3 and 4). Otherwise supplement with Magi's (for healing) and some Giver's (for healing and concentration) until you have a full set.

EDIT:but before you go off spending gold and time on new gear. That is one of the organizational aspects. You aren't required to full-fill every role. Stay dps, but make friends with 1-2 players who are able and willing to play support classes. Or ask in squad if anyone can switch to one of said classes. All it takes is someone to take initiative and get things going. That's the beauty of group content.

My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

EDIT: I will say in fairness that BJora marches and the Grothmar strike are great for getting selectable stat ascended trinkets (which I'm using them for), but my gripe still remains that most the eternal ice in Bjora you get isn't from the strikes and most of those trinkets are from LWS4 -> something that newer players wouldn't have. It's not good to put barriers to entry in the face of newer players when they're just exploring the game for the first time and in a box icebrood saga isn't doing much for helping people get ready for raiding. Even the neck from the vendor is going to get annoying once enough people aren't in Bjora any more for the boneskinner part of the vendor unlock. The zeitgeist aspect of this game can be very punishing.

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I agree that the gearing aspect of this game is a bit backwards, and strikes have had the complaint that the loot isn't that rewarding.

But they where introduced to get people involved in 10 man content, to learn what an effective 10 man squad looked like and how to handle some mechanics that could apear in raids.

The stratagey of ignoring mechanics and just stack healers can be true for some raid bosses as well. VG comes to mind as the enrage timer is pretty loose and one of the mechanics (greens) are litterally healed through for most groups.

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It is possible to pug strikes including the boneskinner (I've done so myself). I have never done fractals above t2, I have done 1 raid (the escort one). I got exotic berserker gear on my dps char with ascended backitem and trinkets (easy to get from living world season 3, now also from season 4, backpack possible via collections as well). Weapon is possible to get ascended via collection (Caladbolgh) or elite spec collections. I spent more time and gold getting my griffon mount. So to say none of this is possible is wrong.... Now strikes, especially boneskinner which was said would be the most difficult one we will get in terms of difficulty level does need you to organise a team (even with pugs). This means you will have to treat it like it is a raid. So you collect a group of players willing to perform several roles of heal, support like alacrity and boons, dps,... If you have never done instanced group content before, I would advise to try out dungeons and fractals first (however the Grothmar strike is easier so this one can be done from scratch). Keep in mind that raids are the hardcore instanced group content in guild wars 2 and that strikes are there to teach you raids (they are basically mini raids). It does not mean that you will never be able to get the achievement or are never allowed to join. Just join a lfg when you are confident enough with your char and know gameplay mechanics like positioning, cc, dodge,... If you are new to said content, just mention it when you join and before the fight starts. Then everyone knows what to expect, where to guide/help and you will be less stressed in case you might fail. And you know what to expect as well :). Also keep an eye if they ask specific roles... If you play dps chronomancer in example, mention upfront youre a dps so the others don't assume you are there to support (to prevent misunderstandings). If you can adapt to support role when asked for thats good but if you don't know how to its safer to say you can't pull that off yet.

I think the gearing order in game is not wrong, as chronologically one would play personal story (you get exotic lvl 80 gear here), hot (this gives some ascended items), lws3 (ascended backitem and trinkets), pof (this gives some ascended items), lws4 (ascended backitem and trinkets), and then icebrood saga. The only thing is that there are players that skip all that and go from starter zone to icebrood saga directly. (And a couple never bought living worlds they did not get for free). So I just tend to help new players get set in at least exotic gears and lead them the way to get ascended trinkets and backitem. F2P players have no access to icebrood saga so they don't have raids and strikes. They can get ascended items via fractals however.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

EDIT: I will say in fairness that BJora marches and the Grothmar strike are great for getting selectable stat ascended trinkets (which I'm using them for), but my gripe still remains that most the eternal ice in Bjora you get isn't from the strikes and most of those trinkets are from LWS4 -> something that newer players wouldn't have. It's not good to put barriers to entry in the face of newer players when they're just exploring the game for the first time and in a box icebrood saga isn't doing much for helping people get ready for raiding. Even the neck from the vendor is going to get annoying once enough people aren't in Bjora any more for the boneskinner part of the vendor unlock. The zeitgeist aspect of this game can be very punishing.

Or - since you aren't around less than a couple of days in this forum - you could have read or noticed that it was 100% obvious that Arenanet won't accomplish what they thought strikes would bring to the game. I mean, it was like that for years and a company who is not able to adress minor issues over years won't be able to unify totally different types of players a.k.a. the ones knowing how to play a decent build and those who just run around with random stats and are happy with that. It just won't work with their ideas at least not if they don't spend enough effort and creativity for such a major thing.It was impressively proven again with Freezie this Wintersday when a huge amount of people joined the instance in public mode and couldn't have any success with pugs there while the squad option hadn't been a such a skritt show. A lot of people are not very good at understanding this game or at least challenging content. That won't change in the future - never.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:You either do the following:

  • Keep every torch lit and break its defiance bar every time
  • Stack on the boss with 3ish healers, move together to keep AoE’s from being spread, ignore torches

The first option is pretty much impractical with pugs as there’s a severe player skill issue in this game.

Having a heal scourge and heal renegade as two of the healers has been very helpful in my experience with pug groups.

By the way, cleared it with your strategy. Thanks a lot! Basically, doing it with a PuG group our dps was terrible as we actually almost missed the timer. Literally by a couple seconds, and i thought we weren't going to make it. It was also our 3rd try and took us about an hour. We were very lucky a scourge necro was around to pull people out of bad. We lost coordination quite a few times with the group losing its stacking but the necros' ability to pull people around allowed them to carry the group by shepherding us all together.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:My issue is group content should prepare you for other group content. If strikes are supposed to prepare for raids, then they should supply gear that is appropriate for raiding and harder strikes, without that natural transition, they will fail in their purpose of preparing for raids. Most MMOS let group content naturally prepare you for other group content. It's weird to me I have to do fractals too in order to be successful (at least I would hope it isn't). Taking the time to put groups together & coordinate takes time). Thanks for the tips on the bladed armor set, was not aware of that set.

Strikes are supposed to prepare players for Raids in the sense that they require teamwork, team composition and player skill (to deal with mechanics). It's a good thing that we have Fractals and Dungeons as group content to prepare you for the other group content. If you want to gear up, Fractals is the best choice, but Dungeons, crafting and the living world are also valid options, why expect Strike Missions to reward you the gear? Strike Missions teach players some fundamentals of group content mechanics, you will gear up elsewhere though, that's what the rest of the game is about.

I've done no less than 25 fractals, have not received a single selectable stat anything. If that's the preparation loop on top of strikes that's just broken, the more recent strikes take plenty of time between getting a group and coordinating again when there's a failure. Other games have natural gear progression where doing X that prepares you for Y actually gives you the gear to do Y. I'm not the only one with this idea but geez there's a lot of contrarians in this forum.

You can swap the stats of gear using the mystic forge. If Strikes indeed prepare you for Raids, Fractals/dungeons prepare you for Strikes, so follow your own advice and do the natural progression. Strikes take too little time and effort, if they gave you the gear to Raid, then it would make the rest of the game pointless. When they finally add proper Strikes with enough challenge maybe they could add good gear rewards to them too.

By the way, I believe Strikes are not a good preparation for Raids as they are lacking mechanics (Boneskinner maybe excluded) to be proper content that bridges that gap, and the Grothmar Strike is easier than all dungeons or fractals in the game. Follow the normal progression, Strikes are preparing you for Raids, but you clearly missed the preparation for Strikes.

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Ok i scrolled this discussion quickly and i have to say that gear should not be a proplem for strike. You dont personally need to be able to fill anything else than one role like dps, other roles you can just look from LFG. It usually takes around 5 minutes to get a full squad if you just LFG like this:Boneskinner 1 druid, 1 heal, 2 quickbrand/chrono, 1 alarene, 1 bs and 3 dps.Everytime when some1 joins just edit the LFG.

When it comes to gearing, you can gear many support classes for strikes only using trading post, chrono is more than ok for strikes with zerk gear and pack runes or even with givers gear. Same thing with quickbrand. For healers most can do fine in strikes with magi armor or again with givers.

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