Your Opinion: Herald- Raid viability — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Your Opinion: Herald- Raid viability

Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

Since there are many people disliking the herald in raids, i just felt like opening an poll for your opinion.

Your Opinion: Herald- Raid viability 38 votes

It is/can be good in Raids.
23%
dodgerrule.8739Ertrak.9506Oldyoung.6109Blood Red Arachnid.2493ZeftheWicked.3076Aeolus.3615ZDragon.3046Lexi.1398zaswer.5246 9 votes
Its not good to be taken into raids.
13%
TheSlothArmada.6709Kravey.4563Thurindir.3268DarkEmiLupus.2876Safandula.8723 5 votes
Could be better
26%
ArthurDent.9538DonArkanio.6419Jthug.9506Rodrick.1942Leap Of Faith.8263SirTomato.3627Virdo.1540Salex.6024Kuma.1503Ahi.9673 10 votes
just play renegade
31%
phokus.8934Raknar.4735Arkaile.5604Nephalem.8921Thornwolf.9721Zhaid Zhem.6508ollbirtan.2915Zenix.6198Alyster.9470Antycypator.9874Painbow.6059Bassdeff.1895 12 votes
other
5%
Arkantos.7460Loules.8601 2 votes

Comments

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    It gives lots of buffs and has a pretty decent heal , also ventari has a skill that can help your subgroup with alac when youre in it , plus assasins presence .
    All that said its not going to be the first healer in the scuad .
    So its good (it also depends on the scuad comp ) but it could be better , for example changing a couple of buffs for others with more utility in raid( by traiting skills or reworking shield y giving shield a mainhand to go with because all mh we have are for dps )

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020
    Could be better

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    It gives lots of buffs and has a pretty decent heal , also ventari has a skill that can help your subgroup with alac when youre in it , plus assasins presence .
    All that said its not going to be the first healer in the scuad .
    So its good (it also depends on the scuad comp ) but it could be better , for example changing a couple of buffs for others with more utility in raid( by traiting skills or reworking shield y giving shield a mainhand to go with because all mh we have are for dps )

    but isnt it useless as healer? Since 1 druid can cover an entire 10man-squad and if it not enough, take 2 druids (or just 2 renegade with the insane life siphone)

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All of the buffs it gives can be provided by other classes that you’re taking anyway. Renegade is the optimal elite spec between the two to play.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    It gives lots of buffs and has a pretty decent heal , also ventari has a skill that can help your subgroup with alac when youre in it , plus assasins presence .
    All that said its not going to be the first healer in the scuad .
    So its good (it also depends on the scuad comp ) but it could be better , for example changing a couple of buffs for others with more utility in raid( by traiting skills or reworking shield y giving shield a mainhand to go with because all mh we have are for dps )

    but isnt it useless as healer? Since 1 druid can cover an entire 10man-squad and if it not enough, take 2 druids (or just 2 renegade with the insane life siphone)

    It depends on the boss. I play as heal renegade for Matthias, Cairn, Sabir, Adina, and Qadim 2. Heal renegade is never the primary healer as there should always be a Druid.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    It can be good if you want to dps i guess i dont see why it cant be good considering reaper is good and brings nothing but damage any class that can just bring damage should be fine if its what you like to play and you know how to play it and have a rotation nailed down.

    Others are correct though renegade is very valuable for the 10 man alacrity which replaces the need for 2 chronos.
    But if someone else is already playing a renegade or you have 2 chronos i dont see why you couldnt run dps herald or something you will give a bit of extra boon up time as well so its prob not gonna be too bad. Ideally anything that has the potential to do what reaper can and provide something else on top can be considered good.

    Now i dont know how the healing/invested support aspect of herald would work out you would have to ask someone more knowledgeable on that part.
    Ideally if your group is ok with you using it then it can be considered good depending on the boss. Most groups if they dont have a renegade already though will likely want you to be a renegade.

    I guess just always have support gear for a renegade setup ready on your rev along with what ever other kind of set you want for your hearald. That way if if they are ok with you playing hearald go for it. But if they need you to go renegade you can do that too.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020
    Could be better

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    It can be good if you want to dps i guess i dont see why it cant be good considering reaper is good and brings nothing but damage any class that can just bring damage should be fine if its what you like to play and you know how to play it and have a rotation nailed down.

    Others are correct though renegade is very valuable for the 10 man alacrity which replaces the need for 2 chronos.
    But if someone else is already playing a renegade or you have 2 chronos i dont see why you couldnt run dps herald or something you will give a bit of extra boon up time as well so its prob not gonna be too bad. Ideally anything that has the potential to do what reaper can and provide something else on top can be considered good.

    Now i dont know how the healing/invested support aspect of herald would work out you would have to ask someone more knowledgeable on that part.
    Ideally if your group is ok with you using it then it can be considered good depending on the boss. Most groups if they dont have a renegade already though will likely want you to be a renegade.

    I guess just always have support gear for a renegade setup ready on your rev along with what ever other kind of set you want for your hearald. That way if if they are ok with you playing hearald go for it. But if they need you to go renegade you can do that too.

    not only talking here about an dps herald, cuz power renegade (just for damage) does even more damage than the herald.

    i guess i should go with an alacrity gear&build then

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Could be better

    It is far from optimal and has a major stigma attached to it, but if you know what you are doing you can out dps the vast majority of other dps players out there.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    It can be very good, depending on your team.

    If you're trying to use it to try and be great carry DPS, you're gonna have a bad time. Power Herald, or even Healing Herald are best with groups that have boon troubles. Supplementing might, perm fury, perm (extra strong) regen, swiftness, and protection, extending boon duration, and providing AoE lifesteal are all really powerful tools that can help your squad succeed, all on 10 targets while either bringing high healing or reasonable DPS.

    The problem is people want a pure power DPS for this class, which Herald is not. But for what it does do, in its niche (padding lower skilled groups), its very good.

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    but isnt it useless as healer? Since 1 druid can cover an entire 10man-squad and if it not enough, take 2 druids (or just 2 renegade with the insane life siphone)

    Heal Herald has a different niche than druid in that it gives far stronger healing, and pads out the boons better (minus might) than druid, but it gives up spirit (unique) buffs to do so. It's always a secondary healer role, and because of that fits better than taking a second druid.

    Comparitively to Heal Renegade, Renegade doesn't have the same boon capability that Herald does (10 targets; renegade can only do 10 target alacrity but thats used for an entirely different comp). So if there's any deficiency in the primary boons for the druid sub, a renegade cant cover that. Herald also has Boon extension which is a lot more powerful than people give it credit for.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    It can be good if you want to dps i guess i dont see why it cant be good considering reaper is good and brings nothing but damage any class that can just bring damage should be fine if its what you like to play and you know how to play it and have a rotation nailed down.

    Others are correct though renegade is very valuable for the 10 man alacrity which replaces the need for 2 chronos.
    But if someone else is already playing a renegade or you have 2 chronos i dont see why you couldnt run dps herald or something you will give a bit of extra boon up time as well so its prob not gonna be too bad. Ideally anything that has the potential to do what reaper can and provide something else on top can be considered good.

    Now i dont know how the healing/invested support aspect of herald would work out you would have to ask someone more knowledgeable on that part.
    Ideally if your group is ok with you using it then it can be considered good depending on the boss. Most groups if they dont have a renegade already though will likely want you to be a renegade.

    I guess just always have support gear for a renegade setup ready on your rev along with what ever other kind of set you want for your hearald. That way if if they are ok with you playing hearald go for it. But if they need you to go renegade you can do that too.

    not only talking here about an dps herald, cuz power renegade (just for damage) does even more damage than the herald.

    i guess i should go with an alacrity gear&build then

    I see well even if the dps is lesser i dont doubt that it cant be good in adding some sub dps and providing extra boon uptime. Some times boons are not always on point and herald could solve a good portion of those boons. I guess it depends on the team really.

    Also power renegade does more dps than power herald in raids??? who would have thought.... ive only ever thought about its condition side.

  • just play renegade

    It's very poor in good groups and pretty bad in average pug groups. The utility Herald offers, namely boons (although it does have AP too), is already covered by other classes within the raid meta. Furthermore, Herald has very poor burst damage with mediocre sustained damage (if you were to drop squad wide utility), meaning it really sucks in bursty encounters with multiple phases/burn phases etc, and in fights without phases, it's still a weak DPS class. Saying that, if you're playing in training groups or with a terrible druid, it can be a good build just for keeping up boons through Draconic Echo.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    just play renegade

    It's not like it is unviable, renegade just outshines it, both in dps and in utility.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    Due to AP (Assassin's Presence), power herald can definitely be worthwhile in raids; when there is no other revenants bringing this trait, a herald can be considered as GOOD as it can bring ~1.5k additional dps per power dps role.

    Boon herald has a bench of 28k. Assuming 5 other power dps, the boon herald's theoretical dps value is ~35k, while still bringing additional utility as a boonbot.

    If there is no need for additional boons, the herald can run a more offensive build (Forceful Persistence instead of Draconic Echo), reaching a projected bench of ~30-31k. Again with 5 power dps, herald can potentially have a theoretical dps value of ~38k.

    And if there is already a source of AP, a full dps herald can optimise for maximum personal dps to reach a projected ~32-33k, which isn't exactly 'high' but is still a solid number in comparison to other existing dps specs. However, this is possibly where it is simply outdone by condi ren.

  • Painbow.6059Painbow.6059 Member ✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020
    just play renegade

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Due to AP (Assassin's Presence), power herald can definitely be worthwhile in raids; when there is no other revenants bringing this trait, a herald can be considered as GOOD as it can bring ~1.5k additional dps per power dps role.

    Boon herald has a bench of 28k. Assuming 5 other power dps, the boon herald's theoretical dps value is ~35k, while still bringing additional utility as a boonbot.

    If there is no need for additional boons, the herald can run a more offensive build (Forceful Persistence instead of Draconic Echo), reaching a projected bench of ~30-31k. Again with 5 power dps, herald can potentially have a theoretical dps value of ~38k.

    And if there is already a source of AP, a full dps herald can optimise for maximum personal dps to reach a projected ~32-33k, which isn't exactly 'high' but is still a solid number in comparison to other existing dps specs. However, this is possibly where it is simply outdone by condi ren.

    But Herald has terrible burst damage which will make its DPS a lot lower than other power options irrespective of the benchmark number on multiple raid encounters, and though AP is a DPS increase for other power classes, it's not going to be that big of a difference to pugs, while high-end groups will likely require certain classes like Fbr or DH that also provide quickness.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020
    Could be better

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Due to AP (Assassin's Presence), power herald can definitely be worthwhile in raids; when there is no other revenants bringing this trait, a herald can be considered as GOOD as it can bring ~1.5k additional dps per power dps role.

    Boon herald has a bench of 28k. Assuming 5 other power dps, the boon herald's theoretical dps value is ~35k, while still bringing additional utility as a boonbot.

    If there is no need for additional boons, the herald can run a more offensive build (Forceful Persistence instead of Draconic Echo), reaching a projected bench of ~30-31k. Again with 5 power dps, herald can potentially have a theoretical dps value of ~38k.

    And if there is already a source of AP, a full dps herald can optimise for maximum personal dps to reach a projected ~32-33k, which isn't exactly 'high' but is still a solid number in comparison to other existing dps specs. However, this is possibly where it is simply outdone by condi ren.

    btw wouldnt forceful persistence be an dps decrease due to the lack of Facet of Nature - Shiro thats not hitting 10ppl anymore?

  • @Painbow.6059 said:
    But Herald has terrible burst damage which will make its DPS a lot lower than other power options irrespective of the benchmark number on multiple raid encounters, and though AP is a DPS increase for other power classes, it's not going to be that big of a difference to pugs, while high-end groups will likely require certain classes like Fbr or DH that also provide quickness.

    TBH this thread doesn’t really have a good indication of what general situation we’re looking at, if you want to look at high-end where bursting actually happens, a number of other specs also become ‘not as good’ and herald being one of them would then be relatively normal.

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    btw wouldnt forceful persistence be an dps decrease due to the lack of Facet of Nature - Shiro thats not hitting 10ppl anymore?

    If 5 * the amount lifesteal per person > 2k, then yes? If we consider that though, we’d need to pump additional numbers into all of the listed dps, making herald appear even better than at first glance.

    Then one could argue that as long as AP and these other interactions exist, power revenant will never be ‘good’ because for some unknown reason it needs to be weaker to account for the random dps boosts it coincidently brings.

    tl;dr: herald is only situationally good.

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    The fact is herald is better than people think , yes if you are in a group that doewnt need a second healer its useless , yes if your druid and chronos give perfect boons its useless ,and yes id your dps never get dmg from anything its useless, now tell me how many groups like that are because i dont think there are too many.
    There are classes with better boons but herald gives the following(in my opinion) 10 man fury ,regen,protect,and can help top up power , assasins presece(5man+150feroc) ,facet of the dragon wich expands boom duration to the whole group (in other words is more or less like an inspiration signet), also ventari is a very good healer and glint gives good cc .
    Just think for a sec that herald got quickness instead of swiftness, would you still think its usseles or would you think its too broken? (I would like to get a trait that lets us get qwickness at the cost of other buffs or at the cost of some healing so you can choose going full sup)

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Could be better

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    The fact is herald is better than people think , yes if you are in a group that doewnt need a second healer its useless , yes if your druid and chronos give perfect boons its useless ,and yes id your dps never get dmg from anything its useless, now tell me how many groups like that are because i dont think there are too many.
    There are classes with better boons but herald gives the following(in my opinion) 10 man fury ,regen,protect,and can help top up power , assasins presece(5man+150feroc) ,facet of the dragon wich expands boom duration to the whole group (in other words is more or less like an inspiration signet), also ventari is a very good healer and glint gives good cc .

    well all i see are groups/squads that only want the "snowcrows meta" etc and kicks everyone that doesnt fit in ther ^^

    Just think for a sec that herald got quickness instead of swiftness, would you still think its usseles or would you think its too broken? (I would like to get a trait that lets us get qwickness at the cost of other buffs or at the cost of some healing so you can choose going full sup)

    tbh i wouldnt think it would be broken, since renegade can give perma alacrity to everyone. Why shouldnt herald give that then?

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    I know people only want sc meta but that is why people think its usseles , but those groups usually dont have just 1 healer nor they have perfect boon uptime (in wich case a herald could help a lot)
    Now about the qwickness part just think about how some people think rene is great just because the 10 man alac (yes it can heal a lot or do good dmg at the same time) and now think about a 10 man qwickess renegade that also gives signet of inspiration , 10 man fury and protect.
    (In my opinion it would be great and definitely it would be meta but im sure a lot of people would say its too op)

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    I think he's right there on the bench with necro. The underdog, who everyone thinks trash, but actually is the silent hero that can carry the whole squad.

    Both get that role for similar reason - they don't seem provide much on the surface, but in reality they save the whole squad when kitten hits the fan.
    Necro's case is obvious - mass resses and his natural durability to be the last man standing and alive to ress others.

    Herald's case is how reliable his boon application is. Others may do more, but there are uptime issues and small area of effect issues. Both foreign concepts to Herald. 600 range, 10 target pulsing boons with 100% uptime for little investment are the real deal. Especially protection, which most likely is a secondary concern for alacrity and quickness focused supports, yet is that one boon that keeps your team alive. On top of that he can extend everyone's boon's duration, including alacrity and quickness.

    In short he fixes holes in the wall of meta supports. If he builds healing power he can provide nearly 1k/s regens, again for 10ppl in 600 range taking a lot of heat of primary healers. Should he himself be one (ventari) - well he'll be that much less stressed if his team has such powerful regen on them and protection 24/7 to boot.

    Will he be top dpser? No.
    Will he be best healer? No.
    Will be best tank? Who knows!

    But when he's in your squad you will feel the difference.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    Perma regen 1.2k for 10’players
    Perma fury
    Perma 7ish might stacks
    Staff heals, shield heals.

    Can swap to perma prot and regen.
    Dome with 10k heals / jalis / resistance / swap second legend for your needs.

    It works, but it would depend the team comp

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Its not good to be taken into raids.

    EvEryThinG C4n b3 v1abLe, U cAn pLAy WhAt U wAnT OMG xoxo

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Could be better

    With new changes power dps revenant may be a thing finally, it all depends on battle scars value/mechanic. If guardian can play power dps, why can't revenant... :)

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    It's not BiS in speedrun or non-speedrun comps, but that doesn't really make it useless. Certainly, i'd never slot it into a speedrun group ever. Might be interesting after balance patch when it does more damage but so will renegade.

    Usually if i want boon extension i'd prefer someone play dps tempest than bring a herald, and if i want a pure secondary healer and for some reason i'm running double chrono on a boss that isn't largos, i usually prefer scourge or tempest due to their unqiue omega carry utility, it's faaaaar from BiS healer- not unusuable though. The boons it can provide in addition to healing are very useful - i'm a fan of it's ability to bring fury because in non-speedrun comps that boon isn't often covered well by random dps picks, and if you're considering running a herald you are definitley dealing with random dps picks. Not to mention prot and regen (so long as the herald doesn't steal druids regen cus at that point the druid is no longer healing).

    That said...just play renegade - it has the additional benefit of the freedom to bring a firebrand in the composition (and a good firebrand who knows their tome skills and when to press 6 can -sometimes-, but only sometimes, carry harder than healers can) and more reliable boons once you replace a chrono anyway. U can't really help someone who goes down way off stack in a dangerous place, but neither can herald really.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Could be better

    @Salex.6024 said:
    With new changes power dps revenant may be a thing finally, it all depends on battle scars value/mechanic. If guardian can play power dps, why can't revenant... :)

    Because the battle scars traits all compete against direct damage multipliers in their respective tiers and there is no way they should balance life siphon traits to be competitive with raw damage modifiers in regards to raw damage output. With that being said, the new modifiers seem like they will be about 5% higher than the old ones, but at the cost of focused siphoning which isn't terribly far bellow 5% of total damage + easier time maintaining scholar / rising tide uptime. Also loss of stunbreak on legend swap means you can't do the little trick of tanking a low damage cc and instant stunbreaking for a smaller dps loss than going through the 3/4 second dodge animation to avoid the cc. New sword 2 is also going to be worse probably because of decreased range for times when you have to move away from boss and you won't be able to force full damage on boss when there are adds around by standing in boss's hitbox, it will be much harder to maintain boss dps when there adds around though i suppose they could just jack up it's damage since no numbers other than range were given. Herald dps getting very slightly higher benchmark dps with slightly lower practical dps me thinks, maybe next patch....

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    It is/can be good in Raids.

    The new changes will definitely help condi support herald. Currently building plaguedoctor or seraph on herald is absolutely viable, but dps does suffer becuase lack of expertise which hits his burns the hardest. Post change we can get 25% all condi duration just from having corruption and picking one master tier trait, which means even without expertise, you can rack up very high uptimes on both torment and burning. Poison is the big looser of this patch, but burns are a bigger part of our condi dps so overall a win.

    So we'll be able to support/heal (depending on gear choice) just as good as before, while our dps will improve, making herald condi support a less of pain to choose. Not to mention that unlike power boon herald we got access to 3rd rare party boon - resistance.