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How would u have designed thief?


Psycoprophet.8107

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Pretty much the classic rogue/assassin archetype. A perma stealth breaking on damage and detectable when you are close enough. Specs would be 1 with high burst (with a smal build up to avoid direct stealth one shots and fair sustained dps, 1 with condis(aka dots) with a healing mecanic based on those dots and maybe one with mid range capabilities. Combat stealth wouldnt break combat and would last like 4 to 6 seconds.

You could spec in better stealth and/or better mobility while invisible or go for more in-combat survivability or damage.

I still like the actual thief gameplay but I like the classic mmo stealth more

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I would remove stealth since it’s toxic.

Remove all tps too because it doesn’t make sense lore wise.

Thief burst damage should be capped at 15% of targets health because too much damage is not competitive.

Remove initiative system and put skills on cds like on other balanced classes, like weaver.

No dual wielding weapons / sets, as thief should have a free hand to steal.

And you build on top of that.

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I would like it to be less reliable on stealth or even removing stealth completely (not only for thieves,for all classes that have access to stealth) as a defense/offense mechanic and instead I would give the class more blinds and blocks ( I love bandit's defense and black powder skills) and disarm/throwdown effects while keeping the evades and map roaming/mobility as they are now. With the right numbers, that would increase the 1v1 potential of thief while being visible and spottable for the enemy team to react. ( I dont take into account PW since I believe it will be gutted in the upcoming patch).

Basically a dirty brawler who uses unfair tactics to win face to face instead of ambush attacks with the usage of multiple abilities (not pw/vault spam) , rather than a sneaky hit and runner . A brawler with less damage and passive sustain than a warrior, but with better mobility, cc, and active sustain via cc and evades.

I know many thieves and other players will disagree and that's normal. I just like the dirty brawler theme better than the ninja playstyle that's all. Daredevil approached that theme, but still in the end thieves were still forced to run stealth and stick to the +1 role which made thief to rely mostly on his team's ability to rotate and hold points. Otherwise it was fairly useless since it cant team fight and it cant hold points on its own.

Deadeye was a mistake.

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@Vicko.1204 said:I would like it to be less reliable on stealth or even removing stealth completely (not only for thieves,for all classes that have access to stealth) as a defense/offense mechanic and instead I would give the class more blinds and blocks ( I love bandit's defense and black powder skills) and disarm/throwdown effects while keeping the evades and map roaming/mobility as they are now. With the right numbers, that would increase the 1v1 potential of thief while being visible and spottable for the enemy team to react. ( I dont take into account PW since I believe it will be gutted in the upcoming patch).

Basically a dirty brawler who uses unfair tactics to win face to face instead of ambush attacks with the usage of multiple abilities (not pw/vault spam) , rather than a sneaky hit and runner . A brawler with less damage and passive sustain than a warrior, but with better mobility, cc, and active sustain via cc and evades.

I know many thieves and other players will disagree and that's normal. I just like the dirty brawler theme better than the ninja playstyle that's all. Daredevil approached that theme, but still in the end thieves were still forced to run stealth and stick to the +1 role which made thief to rely mostly on his team's ability to rotate and hold points. Otherwise it was fairly useless since it cant team fight and it cant hold points on its own.

Deadeye was a mistake.

I definitely go for a ronin style greatsword spec that used stances and fast sword play with good mobility and no stealth any day unfortunately think it's to late to change thief's core playstyles but I think a lot of thief players prob don't love invisibility.

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I don't understand why Anet didn't continue with the Assassin Profession from Guild Wars instead.

'

The game and the community would've been in a much healthier state than this Toxic state.

(to be honest, I really would like Anet to replace Thief Profession with Assassin Profession; without stealth of course!!)

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:I don't understand why Anet didn't continue with the Assassin Profession from Guild Wars instead.

'

The game and the community would've been in a much healthier state than this Toxic state.

(to be honest, I really would like Anet to replace Thief Profession with Assassin Profession; without stealth of course!!)

This.GW1's assassin is better designed, more original (and have better animations, not that it matters but "nine tail strike" is a piece of art on its own) than gw2's thief.I would just substitute assassin's shadowsteps for something else.

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I actually don't think thief is inherently bad in it's design. Stealth is fine mechanically. Initiative is fine mechanically. Giving thief the most mobility is fine mechanically. If I'd do anything from a class balance and design standpoint it'd be to give steal/swipe a cast time similar to the wind up on Unrelenting Assault and I'd remove basically all of their capacity to break stuns.

It's fine that thieves are the most evasive class in the game. With Sword+Pistol and Sword+Dagger sets they're approaching 50% evade frame uptime. It's fine that thieves can get nearly permanent stealth uptime with Dagger+Pistol set ups, straight up legitimate permanent stealth if they're Shadow Arts. It's fine that thieves are the most mobile thing in the game. But the obvious weak point is that thieves should basically how little to no capacity to actually handle CC if it lands. If you time a well time'd CC on a thief they basically should have to suffer through it.

Right now They get 2x stunbreaks with Shadow Step. They're running Roll for Initiative which is a stunbreak. If they're daredevil they can run Bandit's Defense for a stunbreak. Both Infiltrator's Signet and Blinding Powder have seen historical use Plus they can daze with steal and swipe if need be so if they're ever stunned, don't have a stunbreak and really in danger they can still save themselves with an interrupt. So a thief can evade everything of threat that you throw at them.They give zero fucks about any CC you land on them and if they are threatened they always have more mobility than you to escape by design. So it really is like "Where is the opening?"

Thieves are historically basically impossible to kill when played moderately competently. They are now they still are. Between their unmatched mobility and high evasion a thief only, only ever dies if they make a mistake of over committing to a fight that is clearly lost. There's a reason why it's always the thief that survives a teamfight and then proceeds to scream at their team for being trash, as if surviving on thief is any tall order whatsoever. There needs to be some kind of opening to fighting a thief.

Typically the thief/rogue archetype is weak to CC in MMORPGs and RPGs in general. It probably should be in Guild Wars 2 as well. Deadeye as well should be designed to basically sacrifice stealth, and should have never been redesigned to primarily revolve around stealth. It has the most mobility inherently, and deadeye gives it massive ranged pressure and the most range alongside Ranger Longbow. The obvious weakpoint it should have is that it shouldn't be the king of stealth as well. But currently it is. Deadeye should have some sort of mechanic that inhibits their stealth access and success on a deadeye should revolve around positioning rather than permanent stealth uptime the second something even looks at you funny.

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:I don't understand why Anet didn't continue with the Assassin Profession from Guild Wars instead.

'

The game and the community would've been in a much healthier state than this Toxic state.

(to be honest, I really would like Anet to replace Thief Profession with Assassin Profession; without stealth of course!!)

I love how your suggestion to make thief "less toxic" is to compare it to GW1's Assassin and then post a trailer where one Assassin unstoppably kills a dozen people until another assassin OHKO's him.

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I wouldn't of given thief any teleports, and each skill would have a real small CD to limit same skill spam.Or simply I'd adjust stealth as I hate it in this game; I'd make it that you can't regain stealth while actively receiving or dealing direct damage (ie condis and AoE would be ok). Then thief couldnstay as is (with some buffs.Note: thief is the ONLY class I can accept glass cannon one shotting other glass cannons from stealth.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:How would u as the comnunity have designed thief considering the nature of the archetypes squishy high burst nature to make it feel less unfair to fight?Interested in the answers of the balance professionals we obviously have within our community:)Go!

I think thief is already designed properly.

Of course by saying that, I don't mean anything about if it is OP or not. I'm talking its design and purpose mechanically within the intra-class dynamic. Things that are high risk high reward, I generally see as good design for competitive modes.

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Give stealth a bit more counterplay - somehow. Maybe by adding a brief flash of semi-visibility if you hit a stealthed player? Still wouldn't be able to get 'em, but you'd know they were there.

Nerf 1-shot setups - DJ should not have good dmg with only 1-2 malice. Maybe give it a secondary effect if used w/out max malice, but lower damage. Change assassin's signet to have a ramp up to a final hit (increase next x # of hits by %, final hit increased by more - requires setup, but counterable). Ties into stealth nerfs.

Split steal into a couple different f1-3 skills.

Make trickery not mandatory.

Change SA traits that encourage/reward stealth stacking. Stealth-on-heal trait won't work with the stealth heal anymore, but instead offer a different bonus. Remove SA baseline stealth duration increase

Tweak traits/skills/etc so that thief still has its mobility, but the resources that would go towards escape/etc have to be used if they want to win a fight. It's weird how the things thief has enables them to effectively escape and re-engage at will...as opposed to kiting. There should, I think, be a difference between a full on escape and just kiting a certain distance to resustain (like nerfing sword2 ranges, making shadowstep function differently if used to stunbreak vs not breaking a stun but to reposition/kite).

Remove weapon swap cooldown

Remove a few unnecessary stunbreaks - ties into shadowstep tweaks(DrD block - why? Block, CC, stunbreak, low cooldown...). Ties into 'either or' changes - Roll for Ini should only give ini back if not used as a stunbreak. If it does break stun, no ini.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:I don't understand why Anet didn't continue with the Assassin Profession from Guild Wars instead.
'

The game and the community would've been in a much healthier state than this Toxic state.

(to be honest, I really would like Anet to replace Thief Profession with Assassin Profession; without stealth of course!!)

I love how your suggestion to make thief "less toxic" is to compare it to GW1's Assassin and then post a trailer where one Assassin unstoppably
kills a dozen people
until another assassin OHKO's him.

you said it

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Thief is fine how it is, the only issue is how stealth can be used as a burst window rather than for sustain.

In that regard, there would be a few things that would help mapping this out:

  • Make 15 initiative baselineThis opens up for Trickery's minor traits to focus on initiative management rather than Steal Cooldown and passive buffs.

  • Tie initiative with damage and stealthThis means initiative now drains 1 for each second spent in stealth. You want to do max burst you have to take the risk. Preserving initiative should provide offensive benefits (more dmg for burst), and there should be a penalty for bottoming out giving skills/traits rewarding ini more importance.

Essentially ini should function similar to malice, where each point adds a 5% modifier to your damage. In order to account for stealth attacks, they will now replace Pulmonary Impact as unique debuffs with a trigger delay. Not only would this allow a bigger window of counterplay, but it would shift the nature of stealth attacks from big dmg to be more debilitating and an asset to shift the fight into the thief's favor.

As an example, if a thief lands a dagger backstab on you, he will recover initiative twice as fast for the next 5 seconds.

Or if he hits you with Surprise Shot, he will move at 50% movement speed for the next 3 seconds.

Hook Strike gives him 100% endurance regeneration for 3 seconds.

Or if it's Tactical Strike, he will be immune to weakness and blind for the next 4 seconds.

Stealth attacks = personal sustain, the dmg should be standardized across weapons (1,5?) and the frontloaded damage should come from amount of ini left instead. The trigger delay allow for soft mitigation, prevent back to back stealth attacks and allow the thief to pop other modifiers that will take effect upon that proc in the meantime (like basi venom).

Almost all iterations of thief has access to stealth one way or the other, so it's not like it would be a drawback and would only hurt builds that rely to heavily on stealth to deal damage as of right now.

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:I don't understand why Anet didn't continue with the Assassin Profession from Guild Wars instead.

'

The game and the community would've been in a much healthier state than this Toxic state.

(to be honest, I really would like Anet to replace Thief Profession with Assassin Profession; without stealth of course!!)

Technically, that would be rev. More specifically power shiro/herald.

GW2 is the only game I have seen that has in game stealth that is used offensively. Most games typically have it outside of combat. If available in combat, it is typically for a short duration, not spamable, you get revealed instantly when you perform any other action and is mostly used as an escape mechanic.

In sPvP I do not think any current build that has stealth is game breaking. But it always is on the border. The issue always tend to power Mesmer. Near Instant one shot from stealth + CC is always a formula for exploitation. I started playing sPvP as power Mesmer in 2015, and that was the meta build at the time. It disappears and reappears every once in a while. It is the epitome of terrible design. Since day one I played Mesmer I never managed to understand why power weapons deal low damage and all the damage is in shatter. Would have made more sense that shatter plays as a utility and weapons deal the damage. Like condi Mesmer.

Other dishonorable mention is engi. Engi should have never ever had stealth. Stealth, as designed in GW2, is supposed to provide tools for classes that have low Tanking potential. why the fuck is a class with high sustainability and tanking capacity has access to stealth is beyond me. Again, not outreaching currently. But surely will it some point.

Core ranger needs stealth. SlB definitely does not. Same issue as engi.

Thief stealth was always the least problematic for me. Unlike mesmers, can be easily downed (less the new evade spam builds, thought they typically do not have stealth on these builds). however, as always, any class that can stealth spam is exploitation waiting to happen. Remember the disaster of DE 3 sec stealth spam + burst from range + unblockable?

Can we currently change how stealth works? No. It is too ingrained in class design. The scope of redesign required for this is beyond Anet capacity and probably current dev team capability. I just want Anet devs to do basic logic balance testing. DO NOT ALLOW SPAMMABLE STEALTH + BURST AND/OR RANGE BURST FROM STEALTH.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:How would u as the comnunity have designed thief considering the nature of the archetypes squishy high burst nature to make it feel less unfair to fight?Interested in the answers of the balance professionals we obviously have within our community:)Go!

Go and play other professions while equipping same amulet...you may get an idea about what the word 'squishy' really means, just a hint....it means that you die if you screw up....no shortbow 5...no shadow's return...no stealth, did you ever consider the fact that thieves use 'squishy' amulets because they can safely do so?

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:How would u as the comnunity have designed thief considering the nature of the archetypes squishy high burst nature to make it feel less unfair to fight?Interested in the answers of the balance professionals we obviously have within our community:)Go!

I'd just reroll the game version of pre-HoT days. D/P D/D was meta. And you still had a good chance of 1v1 if you're experienced enuff. Fightin 1v1 and holding a node wasn't somethin that your team would judge you about back then. It still was risky but very rewarding to take someone down. Your team knew that you're good if u can pull that stuff. U still had to know with whom you can fight and from whom you should run though. Try holding a node now with chat turned on...

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:How would u as the comnunity have designed thief considering the nature of the archetypes squishy high burst nature to make it feel less unfair to fight?Interested in the answers of the balance professionals we obviously have within our community:)Go!

Go and play other professions while equipping same amulet...you may get an idea about what the word 'squishy' really means, just a hint....it means that you die if you screw up....no shortbow 5...no shadow's return...no stealth, did you ever consider the fact that thieves use 'squishy' amulets because they can safely do so?

Are you considering squishy being an amulet without toughness or something? Vitality is still a defensive stat and pretty much ever thief meta build take an amulet with this stat. Marauder got power and Deadshot for condi. I mean try playing a thief build without a n amulet with vitality on it. It's not that great.

If thief didn't have its designed higher level of mobility and evasion compared to other classes they would die almost instantly. Especially without a vitality investment. 11k base hp.

At a design and role level I say it's fine. Just everything in the game in general is still bloated and power crept but when it all gets toned down still expect thief to maintain a relatively higher level of these attributes than any other class.

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