Shadow in the ice end is too weird (LS5 ep2 - Heavy spoilers) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Shadow in the ice end is too weird (LS5 ep2 - Heavy spoilers)

ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
  • Bangar is too dumbed down, one thing is being blind by ambition, one thing is being "cursed", but hes gotta enough evidence that he cant be turn into "jormag champion" without pay a price, and still insists on that path, even worse, hes smart for everything except this.
  • Its seems they wrapped all female characters into Crecia, shes too worried about the commander when he fall, her reaction its like if shes was kasmeer, jory or Taimi.
  • Braham turned into wolf, and supossely spanked them, and they just gone? so the brave charr just run? the enraged norm let they go? he even didnt get his bow back? its just like a parent discipline a child and "now u can go i have slaped u alredy enough".
  • Bangar tried to kill commander, and when commander woke up, he just "its all ok, nothing happened" then Aurene says "let us just sit and watch whats coming next"... what??

main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

Comments

  • Weindrasi.3805Weindrasi.3805 Member ✭✭✭
    1. Bangar's a paranoid maniac. He was getting old and more mentally ill even before Jormag started corrupting him. Now, as the Kodan put it, "his voice is not his own". It's not stupidity, it's total mental takeover by Jormag. I don't think his behavior is off, considering how deeply corrupted/mentally ill he is.
    2. Uhhh... this just confuses me. Like.... no? Crecia is Crecia. I don't get what point you're trying to make, but I think it's totally off.
    3. Yeah that is strange, but I think the key here is 'be patient'. We'll get the details of this in the next release.
    4. Pretty much the same answer as #3. They could've concluded this episode a little more smoothly, and thought about the way they portrayed things a little more carefully, but honestly, I imagine the beginning of Ep 3 is going to explain 'what happened when Commander passed out'
  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2020

    The ending for them to not talk about it is the classic "Say nothing happened to hide the horrible thing that happened" plot.
    From the sound of things I think Rytlock's "cub" may have lost a arm or a Eye or both when Braham wevnt complete Berserk Wolf on them.

    It was certainly a on the moment must act then ask question later thing since the Commander was bleeding out fast and they did not have time to stop braham's berserk state from probably what I am assuming sounded like Braham ripping off Ryland's arm.

    Still it is a slow process but Braham is learning and at least facing his mistakes that took him until now to finally try to make up for unlike other characters who never try to get better nor accept the fact they are a "pain in the butt"

  • @cptaylor.2670 said:
    While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

    We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

    And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

    If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

    And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

    It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

    This isn't what happened, though.

    That weird realm is the commander's psyche. The doppelganger wins = Jormag's whispers become too much to resist. Bangar explicitly stated he came down to kill the champion for propaganda reasons, AND to get rid of a detrimental force that's affecting his soldiers. Jormag's building up a weak point in our heads, which is our hate/dislike towards Bangar, in order to slowly coerce us.

    The spirits you're right about. Too little information. Too convenient.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

    We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

    And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

    If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

    And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

    It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

    This isn't what happened, though.

    That weird realm is the commander's psyche. The doppelganger wins = Jormag's whispers become too much to resist. Bangar explicitly stated he came down to kill the champion for propaganda reasons, AND to get rid of a detrimental force that's affecting his soldiers. Jormag's building up a weak point in our heads, which is our hate/dislike towards Bangar, in order to slowly coerce us.

    The spirits you're right about. Too little information. Too convenient.

    I did forget him mentioning the voices taking his troops. I was really hoping to get more background on the spirits of the wild, but it feels like all of the lore is getting replaced with Braham, Braham, Braham. Wonder where we'll be going next anyway now that we're waiting on Bangar to make a move first.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

    We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

    And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

    If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

    And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

    It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

    This isn't what happened, though.

    That weird realm is the commander's psyche. The doppelganger wins = Jormag's whispers become too much to resist. Bangar explicitly stated he came down to kill the champion for propaganda reasons, AND to get rid of a detrimental force that's affecting his soldiers. Jormag's building up a weak point in our heads, which is our hate/dislike towards Bangar, in order to slowly coerce us.

    The spirits you're right about. Too little information. Too convenient.

    I did forget him mentioning the voices taking his troops. I was really hoping to get more background on the spirits of the wild, but it feels like all of the lore is getting replaced with Braham, Braham, Braham. Wonder where we'll be going next anyway now that we're waiting on Bangar to make a move first.

    I expect the next location will be more into the Charr Region since we know now Bangar will move to get more charr to support him with his Propaganda supporting him.

    What better place to get it than in Blood Legion territory.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

    We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

    And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

    If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

    And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

    It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

    This isn't what happened, though.

    That weird realm is the commander's psyche. The doppelganger wins = Jormag's whispers become too much to resist. Bangar explicitly stated he came down to kill the champion for propaganda reasons, AND to get rid of a detrimental force that's affecting his soldiers. Jormag's building up a weak point in our heads, which is our hate/dislike towards Bangar, in order to slowly coerce us.

    The spirits you're right about. Too little information. Too convenient.

    I did forget him mentioning the voices taking his troops. I was really hoping to get more background on the spirits of the wild, but it feels like all of the lore is getting replaced with Braham, Braham, Braham. Wonder where we'll be going next anyway now that we're waiting on Bangar to make a move first.

    I expect the next location will be more into the Charr Region since we know now Bangar will move to get more charr to support him with his Propaganda supporting him.

    What better place to get it than in Blood Legion territory.

    Yes I think we are moving to Chart lands for the next episode or two now

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe, but why would we need to go anywhere new Charr related? His seat of power is in Grothmar and that's where the legions have already established as a meeting ground.

    I suppose we could pull the flame legion into it as that could be Bangar's way of gaining some sort of power against Jormag, but aren't most of the flame legion already in... what's the vanilla zone where the dungeon's at? lol

    I suppose there's also the burning forest and some possible incentive to go there to retrieve some useful weapon against Jormag related to the titans?

    Some incentive from Rhytlock to attempt to end the Foefire in an attempt to divert attention away from Bangar and his current plans? To establish himself or someone else as the Khan-ur or something? I honestly have no clue about Charr politics.

    I don't think there were any centaur in that area in Guild Wars 1, but during the teaser at Pax we did see a heavily wooded area with centaur and human slaves. I doubt that's in the Charr lands due to neither really being in that region, but who knows what could have happened in the time since.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    I dont understand how a simple arrow shot was enough to almost kill the commander.

    Yes its a magic bow but come on!

    Remember when we got send flying a few hundred meters and smash full force into a wall from kralks attack?

    The commander had some broken bones at most but thats it.

    Some old charr with a magic bow is now on the same level as balthazar in PoF?

    And how the frick did they get away after braham got his ssj transformation?

    Braham still useless as ever huh?

    The fact that both charr made it out alive pisses me off to the 10th level.

    Dont care if it brings a war wirh the charr or hurts mr flame sword.

    Both will be dead by the end of the saga.

    As to this, I guess because we were already incapacitated by the Whisper and Jormag. I'll have to replay it again but it seemed like he shot us while we were communing with Jormag and that arrow is what interrupted it. So in a sense, even if he shot and severely injured us he sort of saved our sanity? I don't know. It's all pretty fuzzy so I'll probably play through it again real quick. Either way though, we did just fight an elder dragon champion and Rhytlock and Crecia. Where as with Balthazar we fought him and only him, the second time with Aurene's help.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    I dont understand how a simple arrow shot was enough to almost kill the commander.

    Yes its a magic bow but come on!

    Remember when we got send flying a few hundred meters and smash full force into a wall from kralks attack?

    The commander had some broken bones at most but thats it.

    Some old charr with a magic bow is now on the same level as balthazar in PoF?

    And how the frick did they get away after braham got his ssj transformation?

    Braham still useless as ever huh?

    The fact that both charr made it out alive pisses me off to the 10th level.

    Dont care if it brings a war wirh the charr or hurts mr flame sword.

    Both will be dead by the end of the saga.

    As to this, I guess because we were already incapacitated by the Whisper and Jormag. I'll have to replay it again but it seemed like he shot us while we were communing with Jormag and that arrow is what interrupted it. So in a sense, even if he shot and severely injured us he sort of saved our sanity? I don't know. It's all pretty fuzzy so I'll probably play through it again real quick. Either way though, we did just fight an elder dragon champion and Rhytlock and Crecia. Where as with Balthazar we fought him and only him, the second time with Aurene's help.

    What i found interesting after replaying the episode.

    Jormag tells Crecia and Rhytlock that the commander would kill ryland and banger , which we ofc deny.

    But i was fully ready to down both of them right there.

    And who knows what would have happend if the arrow mist or something.

    Jormag was not that far of here.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Jormag tells Crecia and Rhytlock that the commander would kill ryland and banger , which we ofc deny.

    Jormag is aiming a "civil war" with a snowball effect? The pact x bangar loyalists snowballing into a Charr civil war or even end of human-charr peacy treaty.;

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    I think the entire Shadow in the Ice plot was written out of a bullet point format.

    The story, while was kinda fine, had a very very weird pacing.

    It felt like they were squeezing two Episode's worth of story into one Episode, which made me not enjoy it so much.

    Braham kind of gave me the vibe that he "grew too fast" especially since he was still being a little dingdong not long ago. No one changes this fast.

    Jormag tries to be mysterious while contradicting himself/herself.
    Let's talk. No Let's fight. Let's talk while fighting. Nah nah, let's talk while yur killing my mouthpiece. Nah let's talk later. (what the flying f)

    Bangar suddenly shows up being all "THIS WAS THE PLAN THE WHOLE TIME!" and commits kill stealing.

    The only thing which seem correctly paced was the internal conflict between Rythlock and Crecia, and that wasn't even the focus of the episode.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I think the entire Shadow in the Ice plot was written out of a bullet point format.

    The story, while was kinda fine, had a very very weird pacing.

    It felt like they were squeezing two Episode's worth of story into one Episode, which made me not enjoy it so much.

    You just described the narrative's pacing since Season 2, if not all of GW2.

    Jormag tries to be mysterious while contradicting himself/herself.
    Let's talk. No Let's fight. Let's talk while fighting. Nah nah, let's talk while yur killing my mouthpiece. Nah let's talk later. (what the flying f)

    Jormag never wants to fight, but is willing to. Jormag's just been trying to talk, but keep in mind, Jormag's a pathological liar - to Jormag, "talking" is "persuading", and deals seem to be temporary (Jormag moved south, despite promising Asgeir they wouldn't).

    Bangar suddenly shows up being all "THIS WAS THE PLAN THE WHOLE TIME!" and commits kill stealing.

    That wasn't really the case. Bangar states that the whispers had been taking his soldiers, so he redirected (without his army) towards Drakkar to kill it and end the whispers. He's smart enough to realize that the situation presents an opportunity for his own making, and with losing members of his army, he needs to re-bolster his forces.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    what??

    Here's the thing: I don't think Jormag is the Dragon of Lies like everyone has been treating it. They're the dragon of Chaos.

    Consider this... Some NPCs are being told what they want to hear. Some are being shown what they fear. Some are being tricked into doing things they didn't want. Some are obsessing over finding answers they already know. Some are having long-buried pain brought to the fore. Some have been given hope of reversing their bad fortunes. Some have blinded by desires. Some are having their desires used to undermine their confidence.

    As a result everyone is either working at odds or not working together at all

    Think of how running down a tunnel to face down a dragon lieutenant is a day that ends in a "y" for the Commander but they were in no way in control of the situation this time. Everything has been continually going pear-shaped for them since they arrived in Grothmar, but the Commander hasn't actually been doing anything different from their norm. . Everything fell apart for the Commander until Aurene stepped in.

    The theme of "things aren't what they seem at first glance" was front and center in the announcement trailer and it has been an ongoing theme in all three installments thus far. This is also why I suspect Braham's power-up isn't what it seems. It came way too easily.

    Obviously I could be wrong and the pissbabies' theory that devs are just making it up as they go along and hoping things work themselves out in the end might be right. Either way the story is being presented in drips and drops and it seems like something that will only be clear with the power of hindsight.

    People play games on their phones now. Figure it out.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    So just out of curiosity, is the ending different if you lose or win the fight against Jormag's Shadow clone of yourself?

    I heard people talking about the Commander hearing voices in their ending but I won my battle so I did not hear any voices in my ending.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    So just out of curiosity, is the ending different if you lose or win the fight against Jormag's Shadow clone of yourself?

    I heard people talking about the Commander hearing voices in their ending but I won my battle so I did not hear any voices in my ending.

    No idea, but I might try it out seeing as Braham isn't in there to rez me.

    I did let it beat on me for like 10 minutes at various health percentages hoping it would have more to say, but it didn't.

  • I really loved the ending, and folks have already clarified the counter points I would have made but I am confused about exactly how Aurene lead them to the Eye of the North. I actually totally missed that the doppelganger fight was the commander succumbing to the whispers, but that's brilliant.

    Firstly, Jhavi was not with them when Bangar shot the Commander, but she is with them when the commander wakes up, implying that they didn't go straight from Jaga Moraine to the Eye of the North. I find it hard to believe that they walked with a wounded commander half way across the Far Shiverpeaks. Did Aurene create a portal? Did they get a sweet dragon ride?

    I appreciate the narrative beat of glossing over it, because seeing the EotN loading screen out of no where and then BOOM hello Aurene was a delight, but I'd have loved some clarity.

    And also ... who fixed the floor in the main chamber of the EotN?

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @Amaren.9326 said:
    I really loved the ending, and folks have already clarified the counter points I would have made but I am confused about exactly how Aurene lead them to the Eye of the North. I actually totally missed that the doppelganger fight was the commander succumbing to the whispers, but that's brilliant.

    the dialogue is vague but suggest that Aurene "guided"(some vision?) the crew in some way.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭

    I liked the ending, but the setup for Bangar's next move seems kinda forced. After all, who would most of Tyria believe, the PC who's helped save the world countless times and helped everyone along the way, or Bangar, who's known for being manipulative and not that great of a guy. Even if Bangar and/or the renegades decide to start a war, they're still way outnumbered, both militarily and in numbers, by Aurene, the rest of the races, the Charr against him (many of the Legion leaders already seem to favor the PC), and the Pact, who have probably largely recovered from Kralk by now. Unless Bangar manages to somehow free and summon Jormag to his side, I don't see him and his supporters as having much of a chance at having a large scale conquest.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020

    Because the charr are not really critical thinkers by majority. They'll follow Bangar over believing a commander who is either not charr or has 'betrayed' the charr and been around non-charr for too long.

    Other races would be more inclined to believe the Commander, but that would be precisely what Bangar wants. He wants an excuse to go on the warpath again, particularly against humanity.

    Given the centaur in the cinematic trailer for this story, I'm reasonably certain we'll be seeing the charr under Bangar invading Kryta, with the help of centaur. All this to aid Jormag's 'aim' to simply cause chaos to get at Aurene I imagine.

    That said I did like this episode. The spirits not being corrupted is a surefire indication to me that 'divine' forces can't be subverted or corrupted by Elder Dragons.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020

    Bangar is a very paranoid person for certain. His continue thought about using Jormag no matter how much people tell him it will not work is probably the strongest influence Jormag has over him.
    Jormag is all about manipulating people with promises and "giving it to them" to accept corruption but she focus on making that desire stronger to the point they become obssessed with that "need"

    Banger has shown to be very anti-peace, Pro-Independant from other Races for Charr, and paranoid. These are very bad for his mentality because Jormag only has to enhance these desires of his to the point he only thinks about making these thing happen so he believes Jormag can give it to him. All of which Jormag will give to him BUT he gives into corruption and becomes Jormag's "Champion" thus losing his freedom and will because he "believes" he is still in control.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Because the charr are not really critical thinkers by majority. They'll follow Bangar over believing a commander who is either not charr or has 'betrayed' the charr and been around non-charr for too long.

    I don't agree that the Charr aren't critical thinkers. Their culture is built on the tactics of war and conquest. Is war and conquest the most diplomatic way of thinking? No. But I wouldn't say that makes the Charr any less critical thinkers. I think there are plenty of examples of critical thinking across different tiers of Charr society, even going back as far as the personal story.

    My understanding is that Bangar still has a big voice over the Blood Legion, but not necessarily so much among the other legions-- hence why there are much fewer renegade Charr from non-Blood legions (correct me if this is wrong-- I could definitely be wrong), and why Bangar thinks this move will help his reputation.

  • Perihen the Thawk.9527Perihen the Thawk.9527 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given how the episode ended, speaking about the Charr having to pick sides and Andrew Gray’s message about episode 3 and 4 Meta being similar to WvW. I would imagine we will be seeing a charr civil war in the Blood Legion Homelands. Possibly with Bangar being defeated, licking his wounds and eventually running to Jormag to be corrupted.

    I agree they're building up to a civil war of some kind, but I have a hard time coming up with a place/motivation for it that makes sense. Bangar is already the Imperator of Blood Legion, and the rank and file don't have much reason to revolt yet, so I don't see why they would be fighting in their own lands unless the other Legions are the aggressors. Maybe he declares himself Khan-Ur and tries to rally the footsoldiers of the other Legions to join him, so the remaining Charr from the other Legions... attack? I don't know, it doesn't really gel together for me. This seems like something Bangar might do, but I don't know if the other Legions would actually invade Blood territory over this, rather than simply try to keep a tighter grip on their soldiers and prepare their defenses while spreading their own propaganda.

    We do have that unopened gate at the south end of Grothmar Valley though. Seems like they plan on introducing Sacnoth Valley and that's where the entrance will be. So I think it probably will be a fight in Blood Legion territory.

    Either way, my big question about bringing in a Civil War subplot is how they advance the Jormag narrative at the same time. I have a hard time seeing them suddenly dropping this whole Jormag plot for two whole episodes while we fight Bangar's civil war. If there is going to be a civil war, it's because Jormag wants something from it, and I think it needs to be more specific than "chaos". I can't think of how a war in the Blood Legion homelands advances Jormag's agenda.

    Edit: (Although come to think of it maybe Jormag just wants a Khan-Ur as its champion rather than just an Imperator and pushes Bangar to try for it.)

    I think a big part of this is going to hinge on what the heck Bangar was doing in the Shiverpeaks this whole time, which we'll find out more about in this upcoming Vision of the Past with Darkrime Delves.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    If the next map is in the Homelands, my guess is that Jormag is going to do Bangar a solid. If their plan really is to bring the charr under the command of someone they have their claws in, why not launch an invasion, give the man a pressing threat to unite the charr in opposition to? If Bangar 'manages' to win, it'd give credence to his claims of being the only one who can handle Jormag, give him more to build on than the he-said-they-said that we all seem to expect after what happened with Drakkar. It'd also put us in the position of needing to fight on the same side as Bangar for a while, neither of us able to move openly against each other, which would be a nice bit of variety over how Caudecus and Joko played out.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given how the episode ended, speaking about the Charr having to pick sides and Andrew Gray’s message about episode 3 and 4 Meta being similar to WvW. I would imagine we will be seeing a charr civil war in the Blood Legion Homelands. Possibly with Bangar being defeated, licking his wounds and eventually running to Jormag to be corrupted.

    I agree they're building up to a civil war of some kind, but I have a hard time coming up with a place/motivation for it that makes sense. Bangar is already the Imperator of Blood Legion, and the rank and file don't have much reason to revolt yet, so I don't see why they would be fighting in their own lands unless the other Legions are the aggressors. Maybe he declares himself Khan-Ur and tries to rally the footsoldiers of the other Legions to join him, so the remaining Charr from the other Legions... attack? I don't know, it doesn't really gel together for me. This seems like something Bangar might do, but I don't know if the other Legions would actually invade Blood territory over this, rather than simply try to keep a tighter grip on their soldiers and prepare their defenses while spreading their own propaganda.

    We do have that unopened gate at the south end of Grothmar Valley though. Seems like they plan on introducing Sacnoth Valley and that's where the entrance will be. So I think it probably will be a fight in Blood Legion territory.

    Either way, my big question about bringing in a Civil War subplot is how they advance the Jormag narrative at the same time. I have a hard time seeing them suddenly dropping this whole Jormag plot for two whole episodes while we fight Bangar's civil war. If there is going to be a civil war, it's because Jormag wants something from it, and I think it needs to be more specific than "chaos". I can't think of how a war in the Blood Legion homelands advances Jormag's agenda.

    Edit: (Although come to think of it maybe Jormag just wants a Khan-Ur as its champion rather than just an Imperator and pushes Bangar to try for it.)

    I think a big part of this is going to hinge on what the heck Bangar was doing in the Shiverpeaks this whole time, which we'll find out more about in this upcoming Vision of the Past with Darkrime Delves.

    Well they did abandon Kralk after killing Balthazar in Path of Fire, despite the power boost, to focus on Joko for three episodes. So it really wouldn't be unusual for them to focus solely on the Charr for two episodes, especially as they're technically just one season 4 episode delivered in two halves and at about the same combined cadence.

    With the cinematic we had at Pax, we saw the snowy mountains in the back and a Raven flying that led to images of a Charr city burning. I've always thought that was indicative of the Flame Legion, not Primordus. So with that, are we going to see an revolt of Flame Legion against Bangar? Or are we going to see Flame Legion acting with Bangar?

    I think they mentioned they were going to try to do something similar to the election they did with Ellen and Evon, so I imagine that will come into play for the election of a Khan-ur or something. Whether that's before Bangar leaves the plot and Bangar revolts, or after he dedicates himself solely to Jormag and they need a replacement I don't know. I suppose it could also just represent the Renegades instead of the Flame Legion.

    As far as Jormag's motivations go, Jormag works away at people's spirit. Tries to knock them down, encourages them to betray each other, tries to alienate them so that she can swoop in and save the day. Having a civil war, depleting forces and morale could make them more susceptible to her whispers. Could also force them to rely on her for a power boost to strike back. I really wouldn't be surprised to see this situation wind up looking initially poorly against Bangar's favor at first, with him leaning that much more into his dependence on Jormag.

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    Either way, my big question about bringing in a Civil War subplot is how they advance the Jormag narrative at the same time. I have a hard time seeing them suddenly dropping this whole Jormag plot for two whole episodes while we fight Bangar's civil war. If there is going to be a civil war, it's because Jormag wants something from it, and I think it needs to be more specific than "chaos". I can't think of how a war in the Blood Legion homelands advances Jormag's agenda.

    What seems most likely to me at this point is: Bangar starts a Charr civil war during episode 3, loses during episodes 3 and 4 (as those are the push-pull map described by Anet), and at the end of episode 4, goes back to Jormag with the Commander giving chase (Both meet Jormag again, as the latter hinted at in the first two episodes), Bangar uses Braham's bow to free Jormag, gets corrupted along with his supporters, and we're left to deal with both Jormag and his additional Frost Legion, going into episode 5.

    Jormag seems to be playing both sides to go to him for aid, gaining followers either way. Telling the PC to seek his aid against a "terrible threat," which may to be referring to Bangar, while manipulating Bangar into a losing civil war and promising him his aid as a champion would either or both ways benefit Jormag and give him access to large, willing armies of his own, while at the same time distracting and weakening his biggest threats with the civil war.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    I think they mentioned they were going to try to do something similar to the election they did with Ellen and Evon, so I imagine that will come into play for the election of a Khan-ur or something.

    Not exactly.

    • After episode four, again I'm going to be somewhat vague here, but we want to revisit some of the types of content we pioneered in the past. We learned a lot with Living World Season One and one thing it did very well was to bring the community into the story, and make their actions drive the plot forward. The Nightmare Tower, the election between Evon Gnashblade and Ellen Kiel – these things are memorable experiences because the community's combined efforts had an impact on the world. As you may have noticed, we've been testing tech with things like the boss rush event, that we hope to leverage later on in The Icebrood Saga to create a unique, community experience. But, learning lessons from Season 1, the bulk of this content will be built in a way that it is still playable after the Icebrood Saga comes to a close.

    Nothing in that really says that player decisions will change the course of the story- they didn't in the Tower of Nightmares or boss rush, after all. Wanting it to still be playable after the story moves on would also lend itself to temporary impacts; there's probably a way it could be done with something like an election, but it'd lose a lot of its punch going forward, and that doesn't really jive with the guiding principle of incentivizing replay that Andrew Gray tries to hammer home.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • My interpretation of that bit - especially with the "the bulk of this content will be built in a way that it is still playable after the Icebrood Saga comes to a close" closing bit - is that there will be points where there is a community progressional bar to unlock additional content (most likely not main story, but open world stuff). I can imagine Drakkar's boss fight being updated not on February 11th, but instead after a bar that gets added on Feb 11th gets filled, for example.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    My interpretation of that bit - especially with the "the bulk of this content will be built in a way that it is still playable after the Icebrood Saga comes to a close" closing bit - is that there will be points where there is a community progressional bar to unlock additional content (most likely not main story, but open world stuff). I can imagine Drakkar's boss fight being updated not on February 11th, but instead after a bar that gets added on Feb 11th gets filled, for example.

    perhaps a "weekly" boss that is reseted at friday like wvw wars, to avoid the fiasco of "unreapeteable" content like LS1.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Wanting it to still be playable after the story moves on would also lend itself to temporary impacts; there's probably a way it could be done with something like an >election, but it'd lose a lot of its punch going forward, and that doesn't really jive with the guiding principle of incentivizing replay that Andrew Gray tries to hammer >home.

    They've recently enhanced their ability to do "phasing", like Braham following you around while everyone else sees a raven. I wouldn't be surprised to see this used more as a story tool, different players seeing different versions of an area depending on where they are in the story/what their choices were.

  • @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given how the episode ended, speaking about the Charr having to pick sides and Andrew Gray’s message about episode 3 and 4 Meta being similar to WvW. I would imagine we will be seeing a charr civil war in the Blood Legion Homelands. Possibly with Bangar being defeated, licking his wounds and eventually running to Jormag to be corrupted.

    I agree they're building up to a civil war of some kind, but I have a hard time coming up with a place/motivation for it that makes sense. Bangar is already the Imperator of Blood Legion, and the rank and file don't have much reason to revolt yet, so I don't see why they would be fighting in their own lands unless the other Legions are the aggressors. Maybe he declares himself Khan-Ur and tries to rally the footsoldiers of the other Legions to join him, so the remaining Charr from the other Legions... attack? I don't know, it doesn't really gel together for me. This seems like something Bangar might do, but I don't know if the other Legions would actually invade Blood territory over this, rather than simply try to keep a tighter grip on their soldiers and prepare their defenses while spreading their own propaganda.

    I think the answer is simpler than you think. Crecia has seen what Bangar has done. She may end up revealing what he's doing to Blood Legion, announcing he's unfit to be Imperator and must be taken out of power. This would lead to infighting between those in Blood who believe that Bangar is a threat to the high legions themselves, and those who agree with him. We have our Civil War, without the other legions getting involved.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How it should've been:

    Commander: "What happened to me, where's Bangar?"
    Braham: "BUUURP"..
    Aurene: "You were shot and killed by Bangar, but I revived you with a bit of borrowed....buuuuurp! ...magic.
    Rytlock: "And i chewed out my son"
    (everyone gives Rytlock a strange stare)
    Rytlock: What? WHAT??

  • Kaizer.8261Kaizer.8261 Member ✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    I felt it was a bit "Rushed" to be really honest, and some points could've been worked better, but the Devs told that the episode would be intense, and things would escalate quickly. Yet, i still noticed some details, informations that the story did AND didn't threw into your face, like pieces of Bangar's dialog when he show's up and others are scattered arround the map in the form of notes/books (hunger for knowledge achievment), NPC dialogs and ETC.

    Things that i have in mind:
    1- Laranthir isn't part of the vigil anymore. He voluntarily left the Vigil and returned to the Grove. Almorra's Dead and now we're only left with Jhavi and Warmaster Efut, that never shown up too much in the game.
    2- IDK where's Gorrik, Taimi haven't shown up yet and both have the secret on how to deal with Jormag AND Primordus (LWS3).
    3- Aurene tells us Bangar is a part of a much larger web, and killing him won't solve anything. She also says that there's a reason why Jormag wants both of us alive, but she doesn't know why yet.
    4- Bangar, as soon as he kills the Whisper of Jormag, screams out loud "I am Jormag's champion. I alone can control the dragon." It implies that:

    • He doesn't know how the connection between Champion and Dragon works;
    • He's completelly mad and wishes for power above else;

    5- During the Meta Event on Drakkar's lair, Jormag speaks with you, telling you that Svanir wished for power, so he freely gave it to Svanir. As i said on the previous point, that Bangar wishes for power, probably he's going to be corrupted, sooner or later.
    6- Rox is mentioned by Braham on the prologue, though she haven't appeared yet. An important note is that she's living with the Olmakhan, which are directly conneceted to the Flame Legion.
    7- Ryland may not be under the influence of the Dragon, but he was obviously brainwashed by Bangar.
    8- Imperator Malice Swordshadow have been investigating the renegade's activity for a long time, even before the events on Bound by Blood, which implies that she knew they were up to something. NOTE: Ember Doomforge is Ash Legion, Almorra's granddaughter and is ALSO part of the Vigil.
    9- This is a BIG Elder Dragon problem now, so The Pact must show up sooner or later.
    10- Eir's bow isn't the only powerfull fire-enchanted weapon in the game: Sohothin still exists, and it's on Rytlocks possession.
    11- Magdaer is still out there, broken, but it was already found and recovered (Acalonian Catacombs story mode).

    What i think it'll happen next:
    1- Next episode is going to be focused on a Charr civil war (or the start of it). The legions will enter in internal conflict, and the Charr will be divided into those who support Bangar, and those who opose him and are loyal to their legions.
    2- It'll start to connect loose points of the story like: "why, when and how it all started", "what is that much larger web that Aurene talked about", "who's working along with Bangar?".
    3- Eir's bow is going to be destroyed.
    4- Another important figure is gonna die.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think there will be a silverwastes style map with a battle going on and having to retake areas from Bangar's forces etc

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaizer.8261 said:

    >

    4- Bangar, as soon as he kills the Whisper of Jormag, screams out loud "I am Jormag's champion. I alone can control the dragon." It implies that:

    • He doesn't know how the connection between Champion and Dragon works;
    • He's completelly mad and wishes for power above else;

    >

    I think Bangar is making a comparison of being Jormag’s Champion, just like we are Aurene’s Champion. So, Bangar/Jormag compared to Commander/Aurene. Something a bit different then the typical Dragon Champion. It’s a very interesting evil mirror of our relationship with Aurene.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaizer.8261 said:

    1- Laranthir isn't part of the vigil anymore. He voluntarily left the Vigil and returned to the Grove. Almorra's Dead and now we're only left with Jhavi and Warmaster Efut, that never shown up too much in the game.

    What part of "has submitted a request for a temporary leave of absence... we expect Laranthir will return to his post in due time" means he's not part of the Vigil anymore? Do you quit your job/school everytime you go on vacation?

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Kaizer.8261 said:

    >

    4- Bangar, as soon as he kills the Whisper of Jormag, screams out loud "I am Jormag's champion. I alone can control the dragon." It implies that:

    • He doesn't know how the connection between Champion and Dragon works;
    • He's completelly mad and wishes for power above else;

    >

    I think Bangar is making a comparison of being Jormag’s Champion, just like we are Aurene’s Champion. So, Bangar/Jormag compared to Commander/Aurene. Something a bit different then the typical Dragon Champion. It’s a very interesting evil mirror of our relationship with Aurene.

    Agreed. I also think it's worth considering the possibility that Bangar is so confident because he basically already is Jormag's champion.

    Obviously he's being manipulated, but what I mean is that, through the whispers, Jormag may have already anointed Bangar it's "champion", and they are already working together.

    Honestly I think this would make Bangar's actions make more sense. I've never understood what his plan to subjugate the dragon actually consisted of, besides blindly hoping that Eir's bow would intimidate Jormag into obeying him and brining an army to wander around the mountains for awhile.

    If, on the other hand, they have already entered into an agreement, then Bangar may be running other unspecified errands for Jormag, and it would explain his otherwise unjustified confidence that he can control Jormag.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Kaizer.8261 said:

    >

    4- Bangar, as soon as he kills the Whisper of Jormag, screams out loud "I am Jormag's champion. I alone can control the dragon." It implies that:

    • He doesn't know how the connection between Champion and Dragon works;
    • He's completelly mad and wishes for power above else;

    >

    I think Bangar is making a comparison of being Jormag’s Champion, just like we are Aurene’s Champion. So, Bangar/Jormag compared to Commander/Aurene. Something a bit different then the typical Dragon Champion. It’s a very interesting evil mirror of our relationship with Aurene.

    Agreed. I also think it's worth considering the possibility that Bangar is so confident because he basically already is Jormag's champion.

    Obviously he's being manipulated, but what I mean is that, through the whispers, Jormag may have already anointed Bangar it's "champion", and they are already working together.

    Honestly I think this would make Bangar's actions make more sense. I've never understood what his plan to subjugate the dragon actually consisted of, besides blindly hoping that Eir's bow would intimidate Jormag into obeying him and brining an army to wander around the mountains for awhile.

    If, on the other hand, they have already entered into an agreement, then Bangar may be running other unspecified errands for Jormag, and it would explain his otherwise unjustified confidence that he can control Jormag.

    As suggested, the Icebrood trailer dialogue could be directed at Bangar, which could be the pull used to get the two to work together. I do imagine though that the finale of the season or near it at least could be that large battle on the frozen tundra, which I would imagine be the area north of Bitterfrost Frontier.

  • doogal.9368doogal.9368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

    We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

    And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

    If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

    And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

    It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

    Well said. It was all way too easy. Especially the gaining-favor from the spirits.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    As suggested, the Icebrood trailer dialogue could be directed at Bangar, which could be the pull used to get the two to work together. I do imagine though that the finale of the season or near it at least could be that large battle on the frozen tundra, which I would imagine be the area north of Bitterfrost Frontier.

    It was explicitly confirmed that the tailor dialog was directed at Bangar.

    Based on That_Shaman finding that there are 9 portal tome slots, and looking at what we see in the trailer, it isn't too hard to figure out how the story will likely progress.

    • Following up Bangar's kill steal at the end of episode 2, episodes 3 and 4 will likely involve a minor Charr civil conflict, and take us back to the Charr lands for a bit
    • Episodes 5 and 6 will likely take us to the Woodland Cascades(seen in the trailer). I'm not100% sure what we will be doing there. Maybe still chasing Bangar if he is alive, or possible its a mcguffin chapter where we need to find some ancient magical thing to help fight Jormag
    • Episodes 7 and 8 will be us marching up to Jormag's central territory, and killing Jormag itself in the Shiverpeaks.

    This would fit with

    • what we saw in the trailer(Charr lands, Shiverpeaks, Woodland Cascades)
    • what we know from the portal tome having 9 slots
    • the devs saying this seasons masteries will focus on the spirits of the wild(there are four major spirits, each map is a two parter, leaving us with 4 maps, one for eachspirit)
  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    As suggested, the Icebrood trailer dialogue could be directed at Bangar, which could be the pull used to get the two to work together. I do imagine though that the finale of the season or near it at least could be that large battle on the frozen tundra, which I would imagine be the area north of Bitterfrost Frontier.

    It was explicitly confirmed that the tailor dialog was directed at Bangar.

    Based on That_Shaman finding that there are 9 portal tome slots, and looking at what we see in the trailer, it isn't too hard to figure out how the story will likely progress.

    • Following up Bangar's kill steal at the end of episode 2, episodes 3 and 4 will likely involve a minor Charr civil conflict, and take us back to the Charr lands for a bit
    • Episodes 5 and 6 will likely take us to the Woodland Cascades(seen in the trailer). I'm not100% sure what we will be doing there. Maybe still chasing Bangar if he is alive, or possible its a mcguffin chapter where we need to find some ancient magical thing to help fight Jormag
    • Episodes 7 and 8 will be us marching up to Jormag's central territory, and killing Jormag itself in the Shiverpeaks.

    This would fit with

    • what we saw in the trailer(Charr lands, Shiverpeaks, Woodland Cascades)
    • what we know from the portal tome having 9 slots
    • the devs saying this seasons masteries will focus on the spirits of the wild(there are four major spirits, each map is a two parter, leaving us with 4 maps, one for eachspirit)

    The story could also be a switch of 7 and 8 and 5 and 6 potentially, with maybe Jormag being taken out by the DSD. With the last couple episodes possibly as lead up to the next story.

    The way we are carving through the Far Shiverpeaks and Blood Legion Homelands, I really don’t see Jormag lasting the saga if the Saga is 9 episodes, that punches us to 2021 easily.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    The story could also be a switch of 7 and 8 and 5 and 6 potentially, with maybe Jormag being taken out by the DSD. With the last couple episodes possibly as lead up to the next story.

    The way we are carving through the Far Shiverpeaks and Blood Legion Homelands, I really don’t see Jormag lasting the saga if the Saga is 9 episodes, that punches us to 2021 easily.

    How would the DSD, which is way south of Tyira, kill Jormag, who is the far north in the mountains? Like, their two areas of control are probably the furthest apart possible.

    As for length. LWS4, which was Kralkatorik's narrative, began in November 2017, and ended May 2019, lasting all of like 18 months. And the way the Icebrood Saga episodes have come out, which is about every 2 months, that means the 9 release Icebrood Saga will last around 18 months. So it would be comparable. And much like LWS4 had Joko as a minor enemy for the first part, Icebrood Saga has Bangar.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    The story could also be a switch of 7 and 8 and 5 and 6 potentially, with maybe Jormag being taken out by the DSD. With the last couple episodes possibly as lead up to the next story.

    The way we are carving through the Far Shiverpeaks and Blood Legion Homelands, I really don’t see Jormag lasting the saga if the Saga is 9 episodes, that punches us to 2021 easily.

    How would the DSD, which is way south of Tyira, kill Jormag, who is the far north in the mountains? Like, their two areas of control are probably the furthest apart possible.

    Swim up to the Janthir Isles and head east

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    about DSD "killing" Jormag or whatsover, just make me remember this, in Sainty Seya the "domain of ice", is a subdomain of "domain of sea".

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).