Jotun, Kodan, and Spirits of the Wild - possible spoilers — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Jotun, Kodan, and Spirits of the Wild - possible spoilers

cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

With this episode we had the reveal, though I think it was already suspected by people observant of the icons, that the fallen/abberant/(whatever the other one is) are variants of Jormag's power using the corrupted spirits of the wild.

Yet, Braham in a heated debate managed to seemingly free them from the corruption and use their power?
It was also inferred at one point that the spirits are some infinite spring of power?

But we still haven't learned exactly where the spirits came from, nor entirely what they're capable of.

We haven't had anymore details on the true connection between Kodan and Norn.

We haven't seen any Jotun or abandoned Jotun civilizations. We have this bow capable of damaging Jormag because of an ancient Jotun scroll commented on during one of Braham's conversations with the spirits, but why?

I hope we get to explore some of this moving forward and it isn't just centered around Braham with a quick transition to some Charr civil war. I know a lot of people were wanting us to explore this region to learn more about some of the more mysterious parts of the lore, but so far it doesn't seem like we're going to be getting too much detail about any of that.

Comments

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As i understood it, the spirits were not freed by braham talking to them, they just managed to give him their blessings and then go back to feed drakkar.

    Thus their last sentence, dont know the exact words anymore but something like "win the battle i cant anymore" or something like that.

    Implying that they cant actively fight against jormag/drakkar, which they could, if they were completely free.

    And btw, how come wolf for example wasnt taken? What about the snowleopard, thats a spirit aswell, right?

  • @RedShark.9548 said:
    As i understood it, the spirits were not freed by braham talking to them, they just managed to give him their blessings and then go back to feed drakkar.

    Thus their last sentence, dont know the exact words anymore but something like "win the battle i cant anymore" or something like that.

    Implying that they cant actively fight against jormag/drakkar, which they could, if they were completely free.

    And btw, how come wolf for example wasnt taken? What about the snowleopard, thats a spirit aswell, right?

    It’s because when the spirits were leading Asgeir and his people away from Jormag, Owl, Ox, Eagle, and Wolverine all stayed behind to stall Jormag so they could get away, Jormag consumed Owl, this is confirmed in the lore, but it was not confirmed for the other three, of course it was assumed, but there was no evidence supporting it

  • @cptaylor.2670 said:
    With this episode we had the reveal, though I think it was already suspected by people observant of the icons, that the fallen/abberant/(whatever the other one is) are variants of Jormag's power using the corrupted spirits of the wild.

    Yet, Braham in a heated debate managed to seemingly free them from the corruption and use their power?

    It's stated by Wolf that they were tempted to join Jormag, so they're not actually corrupted. This would be akin to the Mordrem Guard, as opposed to actual dragon minions, who still have their free will and were convinced through trickery and force to serve Mordremoth - the Lost SPirits, having lost in battle to Jormag in might, were subjected to temptations and seductions until they gave in and joined Jormag's forces willingly.

    "Jormag gives you what you want, you give yourself to Jormag."

    But the Spirits of the Wild, it seems, cannot be corrupted by dragon energies. So Braham was able to convince the Lost Spirits to deny Jormag - or rather, he convinced them to give him a chance to prove his worth and that Jormag could be defeated by "helping" him defeat Drakkar.

    We haven't seen any Jotun or abandoned Jotun civilizations. We have this bow capable of damaging Jormag because of an ancient Jotun scroll commented on during one of Braham's conversations with the spirits, but why?

    I'll admit, the lack of jotun stuff so far is a bit disappointing. Even just ruins would be fitting ,since there were numerous jotun in the Far Shiverpeaks in GW1. Hopefully Visions of the Past will deal with jotun lore, since Darkrime Delves was literally a jotun home in GW1.

    @RedShark.9548 said:
    And btw, how come wolf for example wasnt taken? What about the snowleopard, thats a spirit aswell, right?

    Four Spirits remained behind to battle Jormag when the norn fled south. Bear, Wolf, Raven, and Snow Leopard led the norn south, while Ox, Eagle, Wolverine, and Owl remained to fight Jormag. Owl died in the battle, swallowed whole by Jormag, while the other three went missing, presumed dead like Owl - we now know that they lost their fight, and was subjugated by Jormag until they were turned to serve him.

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  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    But why are they this eternal font of power that he can just keep feasting on, if I remember the dialogue correctly?
    And are they free now that we slayed the voice? Or did he just like, absorb them and is still able to use their magic?
    And why is Raven the key that seems to be the focus? I guess because of Raven's ability to counter Jormag's sphere of influence or something?

    On a different note, we have tons of norn npc's that turn themselves into their animal forms? Ones in the Arah dungeon that I can recall right off the top of my head. But did we ever see Eir turn into one? Jhavi? Why are they putting so much focus on Braham and his transformation like it's a part of his prophecy and not just some rite of passage that all these anonymous npc's have already gone through off-screen? It felt like maybe it was paying tribute to the dynamic between Jora and Svanir - with Jhavi and Braham.

    I guess they might get into a lot of this as time progresses, but that's the part that's so frustrating about how short the story in these episodes are. It feels like they could get way more in depth than they are, and we're just getting snippets of info here and there that may just get shoved to the side with future episodes.

  • @cptaylor.2670 said:
    But why are they this eternal font of power that he can just keep feasting on, if I remember the dialogue correctly?

    If norn and kodan myth in the lore is to be accurate, then they're literally the origin and life force of all of their species, this would make them deity level entities. "Infinite" might be a bit of a stretch, unless it's taken in the context of "so long as they're not completely drained at once like Owl was, the rate they replenish their magic makes them effectively infinite".
    A bit more details would be nice though.

    And are they free now that we slayed the voice? Or did he just like, absorb them and is still able to use their magic?

    It's left unclear. They were always, technically, free. Thus why they were able to be swayed to give Braham a blessing. But Jormag's influence runs deep, and Braham's blessing may be a one-time deal.

    And why is Raven the key that seems to be the focus? I guess because of Raven's ability to counter Jormag's sphere of influence or something?

    They likely didn't want to focus on multiple spirits for one map; design choice, not lore choice.

    On a different note, we have tons of norn npc's that turn themselves into their animal forms? Ones in the Arah dungeon that I can recall right off the top of my head. But did we ever see Eir turn into one? Jhavi? Why are they putting so much focus on Braham and his transformation like it's a part of his prophecy and not just some rite of passage that all these anonymous npc's have already gone through off-screen? It felt like maybe it was paying tribute to the dynamic between Jora and Svanir - with Jhavi and Braham.

    I'll admit, this is weird to me too (though I don't think we see Jhavi turn). Norn vigil all have a Become the Bear racial skill, as do all shaman NPCs, and several other norn; Eir was capable of becoming the wolf and bear. I don't quite get why Braham couldn't, why he wasn't "true norn".

    Anet's always been rather... unclear about how and why norn can take on animal forms. But despite the twice reference to Braham doing such, him becoming the wolf has no real lasting impact on anything - even defeating Drakkar was more blessings of the Lost Spirits than Wolf.

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  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    if my memory not fault, Braham transformed into a spirit wolf form like, not "flesh" like the other norms. thats probably something thats make him "special" aka "the choosen one".

    EDIT: forget about that, he transformed into flesh wolf...

    PS: by the Ryland screams, the Braham did some bites on him lolz.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm honestly kind of wondering about this whole prophecy with Braham now. They put such a strange emphasis on his transformation, and I feel like it was inferred at one point during the final instance that Braham may be able to tap into more than just the Wolf spirit.

    Kind of makes me wonder if they're setting it up so that he has some destined ability to surpass previous Norn transformations. Perhaps he can embody all of the spirits. I know the player character already can with racials, but is there a precedent somewhere that all Norn are capable of this? If not, are they setting Braham up to be this new kind of magic vessel for the spirits and potentially some newly discovered non-draconic vessel for dragon magic? I would hope not, because even though I don't hate him as much as I used to I still don't really feel any attachment to him.

    But as they continue to explore the lore of the spirits I'm wondering if they are actually taking this angle in some form.

    Given that we don't know anything about their origin, and it seems that dragon corruption effects them differently, I wonder what implications that could have in relation to their part in the magical ecosystem of Tyria despite the seeming lack of their connection to The All.

    I also don't know if anyone commented on this, but in the last instance with Aurene she mentioned that she did our best to comfort us during our dreams as our wounds mended. Was this simply her tapping into Mordremoth's magic within her? Was it just fluff dialogue?

    With them stating last season that they didn't really have an origin story for the elder dragons yet and all of these new subtleties being dropped into the story in terms of the spirits, the scrying pool, and Jormag's motivation/warning, it's hard to tell how much of this will get any elaboration or if it's just a multi-seeding plot approach in which many of them may wind up being nothing more than ambiance.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or, the emphasis on Braham's transformation could just be setting stage for the inevitable Wolf-Braham Funko Pop.

  • @cptaylor.2670 said:
    but is there a precedent somewhere that all Norn are capable of this?

    Typically a norn takes on their personal totem. Eir, however, is known to have used both wolf and bear form, despite bear not being her personal totem.

    If not, are they setting Braham up to be this new kind of magic vessel for the spirits and potentially some newly discovered non-draconic vessel for dragon magic?

    Doubtful. Spirit magic seems fundamentally different than dragon magic. The question is how different, and whether it can be used by dragons in a more direct manner - so far, all usage of the Spirits' magic by icebrood/Jormag has been by stealing or being given magic by the Spirits. No mention of Jormag getting use of Owl's magic, despite consuming her. This would even suggest that the Spirits cannot take the role the Elder Dragons do.

    Besides that, there's still the fact that excessive magic makes mortals go mad far faster than dragons.

    I also don't know if anyone commented on this, but in the last instance with Aurene she mentioned that she did our best to comfort us during our dreams as our wounds mended. Was this simply her tapping into Mordremoth's magic within her? Was it just fluff dialogue?

    Aurene and the Commander are bonded. Elder Dragons all have a hive mind with their minions, no Mind domain necessary, so it's not surprising that the Commander and Caithe have a mental link. Which was even showcased in War Eternal, when Aurene telepathically communicated with us to show us the Skyscales.

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  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    but is there a precedent somewhere that all Norn are capable of this?

    Typically a norn takes on their personal totem. Eir, however, is known to have used both wolf and bear form, despite bear not being her personal totem.

    If not, are they setting Braham up to be this new kind of magic vessel for the spirits and potentially some newly discovered non-draconic vessel for dragon magic?

    Doubtful. Spirit magic seems fundamentally different than dragon magic. The question is how different, and whether it can be used by dragons in a more direct manner - so far, all usage of the Spirits' magic by icebrood/Jormag has been by stealing or being given magic by the Spirits. No mention of Jormag getting use of Owl's magic, despite consuming her. This would even suggest that the Spirits cannot take the role the Elder Dragons do.

    Besides that, there's still the fact that excessive magic makes mortals go mad far faster than dragons.

    I also don't know if anyone commented on this, but in the last instance with Aurene she mentioned that she did our best to comfort us during our dreams as our wounds mended. Was this simply her tapping into Mordremoth's magic within her? Was it just fluff dialogue?

    Aurene and the Commander are bonded. Elder Dragons all have a hive mind with their minions, no Mind domain necessary, so it's not surprising that the Commander and Caithe have a mental link. Which was even showcased in War Eternal, when Aurene telepathically communicated with us to show us the Skyscales.

    It just seemed odd that she mentioned comforting us during our dreams to me. We also have the Corrupted Leopard Shaman speaking a lot about going to sleep and joining them in the dream. I doubt this has any relation to the pale tree but it seemed strange.

    Another thing, that's probably insignificant, is that each spirit has its own champion during the Drakkar fight. Which is a tad bit strange when you think about how each is represented. Wolverine is the boneskinner, the ox is just some generic oakheart, and eagle is just a svanir mob. Why these specifically? And why are the ones associated with eagle just Svanir and ice mobs when the others get their own classification like Abherrent(whatever the name is) and Fallen?

    Is the hunger that created the boneskinner just Wolverine's influence? It seems like Jormag is doing more than just using the spirits as conduits of power, he's either controlling them or twisting their nature or stealing some unique properties from them to twist these creatures?

    Or maybe that's the whole point and I'm just late to the party. The essences we're collecting are just imbuing us with the properties of those spirits, so Valor, Resilience, and Vigilance. Valor is blue/Eagle? Vigilance is green/Wolverine. Red is ox/Resilience?

    I was trying to think of how I could apply these to the mobs that are represented by each spirit but I'm not really seeing a connection. I.e. how Valor could be corrupted to lead to Svanir. Vigilance could be corrupted to lead to things like the Boneskinner. Resilience could lead to things like the oakheart.

    I'm not really sure I understand how Jormag consuming owl and not taking its magic would imply they aren't capable of taking the same role as an elder dragon? I guess because of the fact that Elder dragons can only take on the magic capability of gods and elder dragons? Despite Aurene taking on the ability that Joko had? It is a fair point though.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see Jormag using some twisted form of Owl's magic at some point though. Or maybe it is, and we just don't have a mastery to slap us in the face with the realization yet. From the wiki:

    "Owl was a silent and clever predator who put her family's needs and safety above all else. She reminds me that to hunt is not just to kill, but also to provide and protect."

    We haven't really seen any mobs with glowing auras, but would we if Owl was completely consumed? I guess we probably would. Jormag is probably inherently clever, but it does seemingly try to separate and turn people against each other, which would go against owl who stood for family. We also have the Svanir who adamantly oppose women, and thus would likely never have actual biological families. It's probably reading too much into it though.

    It really just feels like the lore is being built around this mastery system and what little lore we do get takes the backseat to Braham, Bangar, and the Brimstones.

  • I don't think the Braham-wolf thing is that confusing. He's a young-ish Norn who has been going through a couple years of grief followed by feeling lost and purposeless. He can't shapeshift because he's inexperienced and his head isn't in it. I think it is just a rite of passage that all Norn go through at some point. Wolf is trying to push him because we need him to step up, and Jormag is trying to play on his insecurities because Braham feels ashamed that this is a totally normal Norn thing that he hasn't accomplished yet.

  • @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Another thing, that's probably insignificant, is that each spirit has its own champion during the Drakkar fight. Which is a tad bit strange when you think about how each is represented. Wolverine is the boneskinner, the ox is just some generic oakheart, and eagle is just a svanir mob. Why these specifically? And why are the ones associated with eagle just Svanir and ice mobs when the others get their own classification like Abherrent(whatever the name is) and Fallen?

    Most likely answer for that is that ANet didn't want to make too many types of foes.

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Is the hunger that created the boneskinner just Wolverine's influence? It seems like Jormag is doing more than just using the spirits as conduits of power, he's either controlling them or twisting their nature or stealing some unique properties from them to twist these creatures?

    My understanding is that the boneskinner is the "dark side of Wolverine". Dialogue indicates that Wolverine always had a bad tendancy to him, and Raven also has "dark teachings" as we see with Valina Shadowsong in Snowden Drifts. The Lost Spirits are indeed more than just conduits of power, as they're actively assisting Jormag.

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Or maybe that's the whole point and I'm just late to the party. The essences we're collecting are just imbuing us with the properties of those spirits, so Valor, Resilience, and Vigilance. Valor is blue/Eagle? Vigilance is green/Wolverine. Red is ox/Resilience?

    >

    I was trying to think of how I could apply these to the mobs that are represented by each spirit but I'm not really seeing a connection. I.e. how Valor could be corrupted to lead to Svanir. Vigilance could be corrupted to lead to things like the Boneskinner. Resilience could lead to things like the oakheart.

    Valor is green/Wolverine. Vigilance is blue/Eagle.

    I think the three armies are meant to represent the lack of those aspects of the spirits. or the negative traits of the spirits, rather than Valor/Vigilance/Resilience.

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I'm not really sure I understand how Jormag consuming owl and not taking its magic would imply they aren't capable of taking the same role as an elder dragon? I guess because of the fact that Elder dragons can only take on the magic capability of gods and elder dragons? Despite Aurene taking on the ability that Joko had? It is a fair point though.

    True god magic cannot be consumed or corrupted by the Elder Dragons. Balthazar was a fallen god, stripped of his divinity. He changed the magic he absorbed, but it wasn't actually god magic, just mimicked it.

    Similarly, the Spirits' magic cannot be consumed or corrupted it seems, but they can be "borrowed"/stolen/siphoned and used directly, without change.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see Jormag using some twisted form of Owl's magic at some point though. Or maybe it is, and we just don't have a mastery to slap us in the face with the realization yet. From the wiki:

    "Owl was a silent and clever predator who put her family's needs and safety above all else. She reminds me that to hunt is not just to kill, but also to provide and protect."

    We haven't really seen any mobs with glowing auras, but would we if Owl was completely consumed? I guess we probably would. Jormag is probably inherently clever, but it does seemingly try to separate and turn people against each other, which would go against owl who stood for family. We also have the Svanir who adamantly oppose women, and thus would likely never have actual biological families. It's probably reading too much into it though.

    I do think you're reading too much into it, as all that really stems from GW1 lore. I don't think we've seen any Owl magic.

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  • @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Why are they putting so much focus on Braham and his transformation like it's a part of his prophecy and not just some rite of passage that all these anonymous npc's >have already gone through off-screen?

    I don't think Braham's transformation has anything to do with the prophecy, or that much of his personal journey directly relates to it. It isn't Braham specifically that the prophecy is about, it's more that he has fallen into it by triggering the first step. He chipped the tooth, and whoever chipped the tooth is prophecies to either kill Jormag or be killed by them. It's his position as Fullfiller of Prophecy that he uses to demand that the corrupted spirits fulfill their role and help him.

    Wolf's speech about Braham finding a place in his spirit for Wolf was separate - it was a benevolent deity speaking to his struggling follower who has a lot on his shoulders.

    As for who or what the spirits are ... the world is very, very old and the ones we generally refer to as gods are very new to it. I think as the story progresses we'll explore more of what role Koda and the spirits play in Tyria, the actual origins of the dragons and their cycle, and we'll probably all be stunned by it. There are a lot of secrets only hinted at so far. We're dealing with a lot of partial, and bias, facts.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaren.9326 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Why are they putting so much focus on Braham and his transformation like it's a part of his prophecy and not just some rite of passage that all these anonymous npc's >have already gone through off-screen?

    I don't think Braham's transformation has anything to do with the prophecy, or that much of his personal journey directly relates to it. It isn't Braham specifically that the prophecy is about, it's more that he has fallen into it by triggering the first step. He chipped the tooth, and whoever chipped the tooth is prophecies to either kill Jormag or be killed by them. It's his position as Fullfiller of Prophecy that he uses to demand that the corrupted spirits fulfill their role and help him.

    Wolf's speech about Braham finding a place in his spirit for Wolf was separate - it was a benevolent deity speaking to his struggling follower who has a lot on his shoulders.

    As for who or what the spirits are ... the world is very, very old and the ones we generally refer to as gods are very new to it. I think as the story progresses we'll explore more of what role Koda and the spirits play in Tyria, the actual origins of the dragons and their cycle, and we'll probably all be stunned by it. There are a lot of secrets only hinted at so far. We're dealing with a lot of partial, and bias, facts.

    I hope so. I know on the guild chat they mentioned they hadn't really decided on an origin for the elder dragons, but perhaps they've reached a conclusion and plan on expanding on it this season.