What are "casual" and "hardcore" in GW2? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What are "casual" and "hardcore" in GW2?

I created this thread because there seems to be a common misunderstanding that says casual equals poor skills (or something not quite so demeaning). By the same token, there's another misunderstanding that hardcore means elitist or vicious. Neither is true in Guild Wars 2.

This thread is created so we can help each other understand each other. Please keep any discussion civil. For THIS thread, it really doesn't matter which group is more numerous. Just discuss what the terms mean to you, and also your perspective as to what they mean to the rest of the player base.

(I envision this thread being something we can point to whenever there's a discussion on other threads about the differences.)

<1

Comments

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    Well, in my own definition it depends on the hours they invest into the game. Casuals don't invest a lot of time, hardcore people do.
    That said, there are only a few hardcore people around, most people that call themselves hardcore aren't.
    Skill level and what kind of content they play doesn't really matter, as long as they are invested.

    Someone that PvP all day, every day would be hardcore.
    Someone that only logs in once a week to raid for 5-7h wouldn't be hardcore by my definition, that's even more casual than a lot of people.

    Edit: E.g. someone like Asmongold in WoW is hardcore, even though he didn't clear mythic raids

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    All the hardcore people left long ago because Anet made it clear that we werent wanted. They destroyed wvw and spvp over this by removing team queue. Raids are dead because the community refuses to learn them and will cry if anet add more. In the week and a half i have returned even FoTM isnt what its supposed to be i barely cleared T4s and i couldnt get any CMs done.

    They have mostly left i was hardcore when i did play and i would be again but so far it seems in the 2 years i was gonna they have only doubled down in tha philosophy thus further alienating that sector of the player base.

    Just my 2 cents so far.

    Regarding your question a hardcore player isnt about time spent but the skill that they have the aptitude to get what they want. A casual can play 10 hours a week and accomplish nothing a hardcore can play 5 hours a week and accomplish everything. Best example there are plenty of pvpers who are great who do not play more hours then casual silver ranked people and yet the silver ranked would play more.

    Another good example is a fightning game you and I could have 300 hours of play time but if you chose to play spend that time casually and no labbing punishment and combos and counter hit attacks and i Did spend time doing that I am going to crush you.

    Edited For clarity.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Casual is not the same as newbie.

    Let's give you an example:
    We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.
    The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled yet - he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

    ...

    It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

    I think that sums it up pretty well. Only thing I'd add is there's possibly a time component - hardcore players generally spend more time on average playing their chosen game/s than casuals, but I think you'd have a tough time putting exact numbers on it because there's so many other factors.

    But for example I definitely consider myself a casual player. I've been playing GW2 since release (or since the first public beta if you want to count that), I've played every single profession at least a bit, I've got a character in full ascended, have completed loads of stuff in-game and have played at least a bit of every game mode. But every so often I'll click on a topic on this forum with a title like "new player looking for advice" and I can't even understand the questions they're asking! I'm not even sure what some of the words mean in the context of GW2. They've had the game for a week or two and already they're asking about the specifics of the maths behind how stats work and technicalities I didn't even know exist, but are apparently fundamental to playing with any kind of competence.

    It doesn't matter how long we've been playing, those people are much more hardcore GW2 players than I'll ever be.

    Danielle Aurorel - Desolation EU. Mini Collector.

    "Not dead which eternal lie, stranger eons death may die. Drain you of your sanity, face the thing that should not be"

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I guess I would ask: Why does it matter?

    We all have our opinion of what each is, and consensus is difficult to come by, and quite useless in fact.

    Other than being able to say:
    ‘Dude, everyone says your a casual and I have a thread to prove it!’

    Or
    ‘I am a hardcore!!! Bow to my greatness!!’

    It’s kinda pointless..

    This is kinda important for Guild Wars 2 in particularly shortly after HoT launch Anet had to make a choice, there were plenty of players crying they couldnt traverse the world say it was too hard and plenty of players saying its lvl 80 expansion content its supposed to be hard. Anet made a choice then to nerf all of HoTs and when PoF came out you could tell that the HoTs choice weighed in on PoF.

    And sPvP and WvW was utterly destroyed by the position anet took against hardcore people and for casuals if this game design direction was ruled so much by this divide i'd agree with you but it is. Time and time anet has proven this from pvp to raids to the nerfing of HoTs.

    Let me add this note anet also refused to add new raids because of this they didnt want to get the community of casuals mad about content they couldnt enter even tho they had no intentions of entering just like pvp. Anet is ruled by this design philosophy even if the playerbase with in that sector of the game does not want such decisions being made.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Casual is not the same as newbie.

    Let's give you an example:
    We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.
    The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled yet - he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

    ...

    It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

    I think that sums it up pretty well. Only thing I'd add is there's possibly a time component - hardcore players generally spend more time on average playing their chosen game/s than casuals, but I think you'd have a tough time putting exact numbers on it because there's so many other factors.

    But for example I definitely consider myself a casual player. I've been playing GW2 since release (or since the first public beta if you want to count that), I've played every single profession at least a bit, I've got a character in full ascended, have completed loads of stuff in-game and have played at least a bit of every game mode. But every so often I'll click on a topic on this forum with a title like "new player looking for advice" and I can't even understand the questions they're asking! I'm not even sure what some of the words mean in the context of GW2. They've had the game for a week or two and already they're asking about the specifics of the maths behind how stats work and technicalities I didn't even know exist, but are apparently fundamental to playing with any kind of competence.

    It doesn't matter how long we've been playing, those people are much more hardcore GW2 players than I'll ever be.

    Time has been and always be an excuse for people who dont have talent.
    A casual and a hardcore player can spend 10 hours in one week and accomplish very different things. It's knowledge and skill that's always seperated us. You can say knowledge and skill come with time i can say thats true, but i can also say if your a mmo veteran like me with a full time job you just understand better how to spend your time and you end up accomplishing more in the same amount of time a casual does.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hardcore people are putting all their effort into playing the games and treating it like a (second) job.
    This includes min-maxing builds, raiding and aiming to get better at rotations.

    Casuals are using simple ways to have fun.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Casual is not the same as newbie.

    Let's give you an example:
    We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.
    The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled yet - he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

    ...

    It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

    The examples given are kind of strawmen, but I share the sentiment that it's attitude that makes the difference.

    I often see the "play for fun" statement used in a way that implies other people are not playing for fun. I get tired of the supposition that "play for fun" is the opposite of playing to be effective or proving yourself or being challenged. A lot of people find fun in figuring out how to "play to win". The "other person" that "barely starting playing and is still unskilled" is also having fun learning the game. Maybe need a different phrase from "play for fun", like "plays for the sights and sounds" or "the tourist".

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I guess I would ask: Why does it matter?

    Introduce any sort of group or team content and suddenly the dude playing for the sights and sounds is the fullback running around the field, out of position, acting like a clown while the other team is taking the ball to the goal. That may be fun for the fullback, but not for anyone else on the team. It's a type of anti-social behavior.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Cynder.2509 said:
    I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.
    Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.
    Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.
    I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.
    Just let's have a nice time together.

    What good old days are you talking about?
    I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

    Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Casual is not the same as newbie.

    Let's give you an example:
    We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.
    The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled yet - he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

    ...

    It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

    I think that sums it up pretty well. Only thing I'd add is there's possibly a time component - hardcore players generally spend more time on average playing their chosen game/s than casuals, but I think you'd have a tough time putting exact numbers on it because there's so many other factors.

    But for example I definitely consider myself a casual player. I've been playing GW2 since release (or since the first public beta if you want to count that), I've played every single profession at least a bit, I've got a character in full ascended, have completed loads of stuff in-game and have played at least a bit of every game mode. But every so often I'll click on a topic on this forum with a title like "new player looking for advice" and I can't even understand the questions they're asking! I'm not even sure what some of the words mean in the context of GW2. They've had the game for a week or two and already they're asking about the specifics of the maths behind how stats work and technicalities I didn't even know exist, but are apparently fundamental to playing with any kind of competence.

    It doesn't matter how long we've been playing, those people are much more hardcore GW2 players than I'll ever be.

    Time has been and always be an excuse for people who dont have talent.
    A casual and a hardcore player can spend 10 hours in one week and accomplish very different things. It's knowledge and skill that's always seperated us. You can say knowledge and skill come with time i can say thats true, but i can also say if your a mmo veteran like me with a full time job you just understand better how to spend your time and you end up accomplishing more in the same amount of time a casual does.

    All I meant is that hardcore players will typically choose to spend more time playing one game, in addition to learning more about how it works and approaching it differently. Not that the only difference is they spend more time on it.

    When I first started playing Ultima Online I was really confused by people telling me you could max a skill in a day because I'd spend an hour or so doing it and make barely any progress. It took me a long time to understand that when they said a day they didn't mean what I considered a normal amount of time to play in one day, they meant playing for 8+ hours in one day, because it would never have occured to me to do that.

    I'll sometimes play GW2 for 4 hours over the course of a day if I don't have much else to do, but any more than that and I get bored and want to do something else instead. For other people 4 hours is what they do on a weeknight when they don't have much time and just want to get through a few basic things like dailies and meta events they do all the time.

    It's a different measurement to how players understand and approach the game, but I think it's one which needs to be included as well.

    Danielle Aurorel - Desolation EU. Mini Collector.

    "Not dead which eternal lie, stranger eons death may die. Drain you of your sanity, face the thing that should not be"

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Cynder.2509 said:
    I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.
    Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.
    Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.
    I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.
    Just let's have a nice time together.

    What gold old days are you talking about?
    I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

    Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

    Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Cynder.2509 said:
    I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.
    Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.
    Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.
    I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.
    Just let's have a nice time together.

    What gold old days are you talking about?
    I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

    Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

    Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

    Next your gonna tell me people didnt have to grind resistances for MC BWL AND AQ.
    AQ40 and NAX40 and BWL was easy.
    And people allowed feral druids and arms warriors in raids back then.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Cynder.2509 said:
    I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.
    Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.
    Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.
    I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.
    Just let's have a nice time together.

    What gold old days are you talking about?
    I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

    Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

    Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

    Next your gonna tell me people didnt have to grind resistances for MC BWL AND AQ.
    AQ40 and NAX40 and BWL was easy.
    And people allowed feral druids and arms warriors in raids back then.

    People grinded resistances because they were bad. How come MC was cleared so fast in Classic?
    AQ40 and BWL was easy. Naxx wasn't cleared by a lot because BC release was just a few months away.

    Choosing a good specc =/= min maxxing.

    Taking a leather wrist piece as plate-wearer because it results in more dps is min-maxing. Something that was done in WotLK for example.

    Edit: BWL will most likely be a day 1 clear once it releases during Classic, because people actually min/maxxed for that.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Cynder.2509 said:
    I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.
    Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.
    Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.
    I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.
    Just let's have a nice time together.

    What gold old days are you talking about?
    I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

    Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

    Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

    Next your gonna tell me people didnt have to grind resistances for MC BWL AND AQ.
    AQ40 and NAX40 and BWL was easy.
    And people allowed feral druids and arms warriors in raids back then.

    People grinded resistances because they were bad. How come MC was cleared so fast in Classic?
    AQ40 and BWL was easy. Naxx wasn't cleared by a lot because BC release was just a few months away.

    Choosing a good specc =/= min maxxing.

    Taking a leather wrist piece as plate-wearer because it results in more dps is min-maxing. Something that was done in WotLK for example.

    I guess thats fair. Still WoW was far more rigid compared to mmos today and people did check builds and feral druids and arms warriors were locked out of raiding till tbc. But i ceede to that point. I assume you haven't played the other mmos i've listed?

    AQ40 and Naxx wasnt easy...

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I remmember running around full cloth as hunter to have more arcane shots.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Cynder.2509 said:
    I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.
    Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.
    Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.
    I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.
    Just let's have a nice time together.

    What gold old days are you talking about?
    I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

    Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

    Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

    Next your gonna tell me people didnt have to grind resistances for MC BWL AND AQ.
    AQ40 and NAX40 and BWL was easy.
    And people allowed feral druids and arms warriors in raids back then.

    People grinded resistances because they were bad. How come MC was cleared so fast in Classic?
    AQ40 and BWL was easy. Naxx wasn't cleared by a lot because BC release was just a few months away.

    Choosing a good specc =/= min maxxing.

    Taking a leather wrist piece as plate-wearer because it results in more dps is min-maxing. Something that was done in WotLK for example.

    I guess thats fair. Still WoW was far more rigid compared to mmos today and people did check builds and feral druids and arms warriors were locked out of raiding till tbc. But i ceede to that point. I assume you haven't played the other mmos i've listed?

    AQ40 and Naxx wasnt easy...

    Just played a little bit of Rappelz and Aion, nothing endgame wise. Lock outs to certain classes always happen if the data to min/maxx isn't there. Same thing happened during GW2 release and the 4warr/1mesmer groups.

    AQ40 was just long, and Naxx wasn't explored by enough people because of BC release and the lack of Tanks during 4Horseman. They will most likely be first day clears by todays standards.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Casual is not the same as newbie.

    Let's give you an example:
    We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.
    The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled yet - he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

    ...

    It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

    ^This. It's about how seriously you approach the game and not necessarily about how much time you put into it, which content you prefer, or how skilled you are.

    For instance, I consider myself a casual player. But I play a lot because GW2 is the only game I play. It's what I spend my time doing that defines me as "casual", in my mind. I mostly do story/open world content and some unranked PvP with my friend who is fairly new to the game. I'm fractal level 98, PvP level 60, WvW rank 1425. The only thing I've barely touched at all is raiding. So, I do a little bit of everything but I've never done anything seriously (e.g. raiding/WvW guilds, fractal T4/speed groups).

    In PvP I played 1 ranked season back during HoT. I was new to PvP and did solo queue as a team healer (tempest auramancer), which I'm told is a terrible idea. I did well, though, finishing the season strong in platinum, 300 rating points above my placement after 250 games played. But the rest of my PvP career has been just playing around with my friends/guild and doing dailies in unranked.

    In WvW, I achieved my rank by solo roaming. I already knew how to fight a bit from PvP and over the course of hundreds of 1vx roaming battles I learned how to handle myself in a fight quite well in my estimation, but even now I don't really understand how the game mode works and have no idea how to function as part of an organized team.

    I can do fractals and raids, but I've never been a big fan of them. So I only go when friends want to do them and we don't worry about meta builds. We just do our best. But back in the day I used to play WoW, where I was a guild leader, raid leader, primarily a player of tanks (main tank, off tank, all classes) but also filled in as tank or raid heals or DPS. Whatever we needed. That was what I would call "hardcore". It's simply not how I play GW2. But I'm still the same player in every other respect!

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    You can't just categorize players with 2 labels. Is the guy the spending 30 to 40 hours a week grinding out achievments and legnedary gear casual? I think not, neither Is the dude that exclusively played silverwastes for 5 years to drop a specific shiny, or the player that did nothing but play the market to gt 1 million gold. If you threw these 3 in any other game mode they would be called casual even though they are hard core in their respective field. The player base is as diversified as the alleged gender spectrum.

  • Chichimec.9364Chichimec.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    Hmm, personally I wouldn't factor time into whether a person is casual or hardcore. I just did an age check and it seems I've played 4,833 hours over the last 790 days, which averages out to a little more than 6 hours a day. Yet I very much consider myself a casual player. To me, the primary difference is attitude, with skill level being a secondary difference. I think of hard core as the folks who enjoy hard, challenging game play as well as enjoying digging into the minutiae of the game to min/max their characters. As a casual player, I'm looking for a relaxing, minimally challenging game when I play. Hardcore players work on honing their skills to the competitive level. Given my age and physical condition, I'm doing good to get my skills up to an average level and I'm fine with that. Different folks enjoy different things. That's just a simple fact of life. To me, the optimum would for GW2 to embrace both the hardcore and the casual players by making content for both. Even better would be introducing difficulty levels, so folks could choose how challenging they want their game to be.

  • Just wanted to post my explanation from another thread on the same topic.

    @Rogue.8235 said:
    Casual Gaming has nothing to do with skill level, length of playtime, competitiveness, or any other thing that I see tossed around here. A casual gamer is someone who plays for the enjoyment of the experience of video games, which is an interactive medium that cannot be replicated by any other form of entertainment. You can be very skillful, play difficult content, play for a lot or a little, do pvp and raids, or open world, none of that matters. You're playing for the enjoyment of the game.

    So where do hardcore gamers fit in? Games are puzzles to them. Solve the logic puzzle that happens to have thematically homogeneous audio and video feedback. Hardcore gamers solve the puzzle of finding the most optimal, efficient way of completing a given task. That is all it is to them. There is no story, just the thrill of mastering the mechanics given by the rules of the game (puzzle to them). The enjoyment for hardcore games comes not from the immersive experience created by the developers, but from solving the puzzle of completing a task with a given set of constraints (profession, traits, skills, weapons, stats).

    Again, the difference between casual and hardcore has NOTHING to do with skill-level, length of playtime, playtime activities, competitiveness, or willingness to learn the mechanics. It has everything to do with the mindset and intent of playing video games.

    Some clarification in case someone made the same misinterpretation error.

    @Rogue.8235 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    You make it sound like a hardcore can't enjoy the game for the games sake, and that casuals are the only ones that can have fun ?

    I don't think that the definition of "Casual = fun", I believe it is more about how different people approach fun. Nor do I think that casual is everyone that isn't hardcore, as it has often been thrown around.

    You misinterpreted my statements. Hardcore gamers have fun solving the puzzle. I'm casual when it comes to MMORPG's but completely hardcore when it comes to fighting games and Civilization. Hardcore gamers find enjoyment in optimizing constraints to complete the game's objectives in the most efficient manner possible In fighting games, I never execute moves just because they look cool or that's how I want to beat the other player. I always execute the optimal move in any given circumstance during a match-up. I'm the same way with chess. I make optimal moves, I don't capture pieces or use certain pieces just for the fun in it. For me, the fun in chess and fighting games is executing perfection, not the experience of the game

    If you don't find enjoyment in optimizing constraints and executing the most efficient ways to solve the logic puzzle of a game's objective, you are not hardcore. I am definitely not hardcore in GW2.

    Thus, hardcore gamers and casual gamers equally have fun with the same video game. How they derive that enjoyment is what separates them.

    Edit: Wanted to reiterate that the casual <-> hardcore spectrum has nothing to do with skill-level, competitiveness, length of play, willingness to learn, or playtime activities. It is solely based on how you view the game and how you derive your enjoyment and fun from that game.

    "The ancient Oracle said I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing." -Socrates
    "Victorious warriors win first, then go to war. Defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."-Sun Tzu

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chichimec.9364 said:
    Hmm, personally I wouldn't factor time into whether a person is casual or hardcore. I just did an age check and it seems I've played 4,833 hours over the last 790 days, which averages out to a little more than 6 hours a day. Yet I very much consider myself a casual player. To me, the primary difference is attitude, with skill level being a secondary difference. I think of hard core as the folks who enjoy hard, challenging game play as well as enjoying digging into the minutiae of the game to min/max their characters. As a casual player, I'm looking for a relaxing, minimally challenging game when I play. Hardcore players work on honing their skills to the competitive level. Given my age and physical condition, I'm doing good to get my skills up to an average level and I'm fine with that. Different folks enjoy different things. That's just a simple fact of life. To me, the optimum would for GW2 to embrace both the hardcore and the casual players by making content for both. Even better would be introducing difficulty levels, so folks could choose how challenging they want their game to be.

    Assuming that you sleep 8 hours a day, you have dedicated 37.5% of you waking hours over the past 2 years to this game. It's not what I would call casual but I gt your point.

    I agree with you that Anet should put more effort in adding varying difficulty levels ito instanced content. They pretty much nailed the formula down with fractals and I don't understand why they don't expand it to other areas of the game.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chichimec.9364 said:
    Even better would be introducing difficulty levels, so folks could choose how challenging they want their game to be.

    This, I think, would be difficult to do in an open world MMO model without splitting the player base between varying levels or instances. Challenging content should be fractals and raids. Just my opinion.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Chichimec.9364 said:
    Even better would be introducing difficulty levels, so folks could choose how challenging they want their game to be.

    This, I think, would be difficult to do in an open world MMO model without splitting the player base between varying levels or instances. Challenging content should be fractals and raids. Just my opinion.

    Impossible to do in open world but there is tons of instanced content in GW2 which would make it possible. Fractals proved it was possible to do. Raids and Strike missions could easily have varying difficulty levels just by adjusting the HP spool and damage of bosses. Improve CM rewards to make them worth while doing more than once and just made 2 difficulty levels for raids. You could even go as far as adding instabilities similar to fractals for some extra varying challenge . Even story instances could easily have varying difficulty. and it wouldn't be all that complicated to do. You are not adding or removing mechanics, you are just tweaking a few numbers.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Casual is not the same as newbie.

    Let's give you an example:
    We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.
    The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled yet - he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

    ...

    It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I guess I would ask: Why does it matter?

    Introduce any sort of group or team content and suddenly the dude playing for the sights and sounds is the fullback running around the field, out of position, acting like a clown while the other team is taking the ball to the goal. That may be fun for the fullback, but not for anyone else on the team. It's a type of anti-social behavior.

    That’s the thing: everyone has their own definition. And the example you gave is... well.. a little extreme, but it does work to illustrate.

    The problem comes in there are people that would say that the fullback hitting the wrong hole was a casual. Instead of the fullback who is standing there wondering where the heck his flag is as he’s getting tackled... Then another one would say that he was hardcore because he cared where his flag was despite not playing flag football...

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Cynder.2509Cynder.2509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Cynder.2509 said:
    I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.
    Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.
    Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.
    I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.
    Just let's have a nice time together.

    What good old days are you talking about?
    I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

    Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

    I wasn't talking about MMOs specifically, I meant games in general way before online play was even a thing and people played for entertainment. And you know that there were MMOs before WoW, right? As far as I remember this stuff started somewhere in the 90s even but I forgot the exact name of the first game of this genre, unfortnately. Maybe read what I wrote more clearly and you'll understand that I wasn't talking about one thing specifacally.
    Anyways, I don't have time and energy to argue with people virtually on the internet and this isn't the focus of this discussion either.
    So in other words, if you want to do your stuff then it's fine. Go do your stuff then but don't push others into what you you like.
    Regardless, have a nice day.

    I'm Hunter, he/him
    Character infos: https://is-it-because-im-charr.tumblr.com/charactersgw2

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    I created this thread because there seems to be a common misunderstanding that says casual equals poor skills (or something not quite so demeaning). By the same token, there's another misunderstanding that hardcore means elitist or vicious. Neither is true in Guild Wars 2.

    I believe this is also not true for (most) other games.

    I think a casual (player) is a player that plays casually in the meaning "sometimes"/"once in a while" etc. - so the time someone spends for a game is the defining characteristic. At first, this has nothing to do with how skilled a player is. But of course, players, that have less play hours and less practice in the game, are often not as skilled than players that have much more practice (in average, but not always!).

    The amount of time a player plays can change. Maybe because of life changes (work, marriage, childreen, etc.) a player can not spend as much time in the game than before. So he/she now plays only casually, but is still a skilled player.

    And as a generalization, the word "casual" is sometimes used from players to insult other (potentially lower-skilled) players ("noobs"). This is not right, but it happens.

    Now to the word "hardcore": I do not think that "hardcore" is used very often in GW2. During raiding I met a lot of very good/skilled players (way above my league). I would not describe them as "hardcore" nor would they call themself so. So, I guess, "hardcore" also has not much to do with skill.

    BTW: Most (99%) of my fellow raiders I would describe as "friendly, nice and helpful" and only very, very few of them as "elitist" and "try-hard".

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Haven't read the rest of the posts but if I were to just address the question in the title;

    It's the attitude. Casual player come at the game in a..well...casual manner. They do what's most fun, play how they want. They don't worry about what's meta, they don't worry about efficiency. Hardcore players try to optimize to the max. They want to beat everything as fast and efficient as possible doing whatever brings the most reward. It's not black and white though so people can be any degree between the two.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Cynder.2509Cynder.2509 Member ✭✭✭

    To everyone suggesting various diffulty levels to instanced content: I have a suggestion to add to that as it could function if the ideas and pkans for it are right.
    You could also add difficulty to open world as well for those who want more challenge in that too. For example let's look at how gw1 solved this problem kinda well. There was a normal mode and a hard mode for both instances and "open world" (although it was more of an instanced world of exploarable zones).
    And as far as I've observed the matter it was pretty well received to handle it like this. But then gw1 overall was more complex than gw2, even in its concept. It may take a while to get used to the predecessor but if you get a grip on it you'll start to enjoy it a lot.
    I know using the same system on modes like gw1 had could prove as very diffucult to nearly impossible given how different both engines work (even if gw2 uses a modified version of the gw1 engine) and this kind of content would more likely be implemented into gw3 but it's just an idea anyways.
    But then on the other hand it will, as said before, divide players but it might also make the right connections between like mided people so nobody gets in eachother's way.

    I'm Hunter, he/him
    Character infos: https://is-it-because-im-charr.tumblr.com/charactersgw2

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    I think Casual content means you don't have to have a strict group and set strict schedule to get stuff.

    True ... IMO, these things aren't black and white. Casual and Hardcore are just different ends of a spectrum. You touched on the elements that define that spectrum:

    1. Scheduling ... I consider myself a casual because I am not willing/able to schedule my RL around being somewhere ingame at a specific time to do an activity
    2. Timing ... I consider myself a casual because I am not willing/able to dedicate a specific amount of time to playing the game when I do.
    3. Grouping ... I consider myself a casual because I am not willing/able to restrict who I can play with to accomplish ingame activities. Again, this is related to time.

    Literally, almost every reason I can think of to define myself as a casual is related to time.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020

    Guild wars 2 is a game designed for casual, hence the horizontal development and max gear that is trivially available to everyone. Hardcore for me is playing to the point where it becomes a significant impact to Your home life, and you have the game is high priority in your life.

    I have thousands of hours on my main Char alone, I have legendaries, gold, lots of gearsets with which I enjoy minmaxing builds, I enjoy pve and pvp. When the fancy takes me il play a 5 hour stint straight. Despite all this, I'm a casual player beevause I don't prioritise the game over everything in my life, and can happily not play the game for periods if I have other things on.

    There are games like wow etc that target and reward hardcore behaviours (raiding and the ever shifting power curve) And there are people who think yhry are more important because they are hardcore and value minmaxing over gameplay, but fortunately some wise heads designed gw2 which I'm grateful for.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • XYLO.7031XYLO.7031 Member ✭✭✭

    I am a casual. I do things in game that do not even have achievements. Those things are just fun to me and my small gymkhana group. One member is doing an all gymkhana wp route for all core tyria wps. I'm sure there is no achievement for that but we will be on his tail with our beetles when he has an ideal route. He made his own goals: one route with bond of vigor and another route without it based on momentum of boost, drift, and terrain slopes.

    I would say he is hardcore despite not being top deeps in raid, fractal, strike, etc. Nor does he care about WvW or PvP.

    I am happy drifting around our home course in bloodtide. I login for dailies, new story content, and that fantastic open world content.

    I'm really thankful for this current saga. I really enjoy it. I really want to bleep bleep bleep that Bangar after what he did to my character. Remember, I came back from the dead and killed the God of War. He's just a Bangar who looks really cuddly but he GOTS to GO!

    I'm just like that described veteran who logs a lot of hours to wind down from real life. I do not need work part 2 in a fictional game which won't get me ahead in real life.

    Wind down, have fun, and be a good patron to the designers and developers of the game I enjoy by monetary donations in gems.

    Eponymously known as 'Tanya' despite many alts
    Beetle Gymkhana @ Crimson Post Reset TT
    Home Course: Bloodtide Coast, Spiral Track aka Bloodtide Slide

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They're somewhat meaningless labels, because they conflate multiple meanings.

    Casual: plays once every few days/weeks or only in short bursts, not likely to seek challenges, often lower in skill, not likely to do research on the game
    I express those as tendencies, because it is very possible to be casual and skilled, or have little play time but have done build research.

    Hardcore would be mostly the opposite: plays daily, often at a high level or in difficult content (raids, CMs), understand metagame, may take the game far more seriously than is healthy, grind content/gold excessively.

    There are too many behaviors that can overlap for those terms to be actually useful, and the context in which they're used will determine their meaning. And it's usually as a slur.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • I USED to be hardcore in this game but now i am casual but in no way does that mean my skill has diminished at all.

  • @Daddicus.6128 said:
    What are "casual" and "hardcore" in GW2?

    Hardcore have no chill.

    ...

  • XYLO.7031XYLO.7031 Member ✭✭✭

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    What are "casual" and "hardcore" in GW2?

    Hardcore have no chill.

    Dey zero chill. So true. Erting guan b irie.

    Eponymously known as 'Tanya' despite many alts
    Beetle Gymkhana @ Crimson Post Reset TT
    Home Course: Bloodtide Coast, Spiral Track aka Bloodtide Slide

  • My own little perspective. Hardcore players are going to min max to the extreme, either raiding, wvw, spvp, fractals, etc. They invest a lot of time into getting their gear in that sweet spot, know mechanics, know how to react in group situations. This does not = elitism. Time in game doesn’t = hardcore. Hardcore can even be deemed on achievement hunting and hardcore mat farms.

    Casual players are the ones who, like me, do what you can with what you can. Casual folk may spend up to 5-6 or more hours in a session of play. Some may log in for a few minutes to grab their daily and log out. Some just take their time and if an achievement pops then even better!

    Both are very much vital to a games health. You need casuals who do their own thing at the pace they choose. You need the hardcore to push the boundaries and make new ways of developers creating content.

    Sin The Alluring/Tormentor/Terrorizer/Terrible/Insane/Fragrant/Subtle/Vigilante/Explosive/Saint/Demonic/Scout/Crazy
    The Crazy Gods - [gods] ~ Crazy Gods - [Gods] ~ One Of The Seven Deadly - [SINs] ~ Vassals Of The Aether - [VOA] ~ Floor Kissers of Tyria - [FKT]

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    I created this thread because there seems to be a common misunderstanding that says casual equals poor skills (or something not quite so demeaning). By the same token, there's another misunderstanding that hardcore means elitist or vicious. Neither is true in Guild Wars 2.

    This thread is created so we can help each other understand each other. Please keep any discussion civil. For THIS thread, it really doesn't matter which group is more numerous. Just discuss what the terms mean to you, and also your perspective as to what they mean to the rest of the player base.

    (I envision this thread being something we can point to whenever there's a discussion on other threads about the differences.)

    Attempting to define exactly what constitutes one or the other serves to do nothing but cement the divide in this playerbase. Attempting to paint players with a label just makes the generalizations worse.

    Maybe instead of talking about what makes us different from each other we instead remember the commonality between us all.... a passion for this game.

    This very thread where you asked people to be civil has already seen multiple instances of people using these labels as pejoratives.
    I'm not sure you need any more evidence than that.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020

    It's not wrong to think Casuals have poor skills because they supposedly "aren't playing the game as seriously" as "Hardcore players"

    But Hardcore players shouldn't think they are automatically better skilled because they spent more time in the game either.
    I've seen pretty bad "Hardcore" players, just as much as "Casual" players.

    At the end of the day, if yu are labelled as Casual, so be it.
    Yu just play lesser than others, big deal.

    If yu are labelled as Hardcore, no big deal too.
    Yu just simply invest more time in this game, while others may choose to play a variety of games, just cos they like to.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    All the hardcore people left long ago because Anet made it clear that we werent wanted. They destroyed wvw and spvp over this by removing team queue. Raids are dead because the community refuses to learn them and will cry if anet add more. In the week and a half i have returned even FoTM isnt what its supposed to be i barely cleared T4s and i couldnt get any CMs done.

    They have mostly left i was hardcore when i did play and i would be again but so far it seems in the 2 years i was gonna they have only doubled down in tha philosophy thus further alienating that sector of the player base.

    Just my 2 cents so far.

    Regarding your question a hardcore player isnt about time spent but the skill that they have the aptitude to get what they want. A casual can play 10 hours a week and accomplish nothing a hardcore can play 5 hours a week and accomplish everything. Best example there are plenty of pvpers who are great who do not play more hours then casual silver ranked people and yet the silver ranked would play more.

    Another good example is a fightning game you and I could have 300 hours of play time but if you chose to play spend that time casually and no labbing punishment and combos and counter hit attacks and i Did spend time doing that I am going to crush you.

    Edited For clarity.

    I've always had an issue with the amount of time invested in the game as a barometer for casual and hard core.

    I run a fairly casual guild. There's a woman in my guild who doesn't raid, barely does anything in Fractals. Barely does any challenging achievements. Doesn't PvP. But she gathers all the time, constantly, every day, all day. She's not casaul about gathering. She came to me after years of playing and said she was bored and when I asked her why she doesn't make a legendary weapon she told me she heard it was hard. So I started asking her what she had in her inventory. How many obby shards do you have. How many ectos. How many of each of the mats. She already had world complete. By the end of that all she was really missing was a gift of battle. She already had a legendary done. I showed her how to get some easy WvW dalies and use the potions to work on the gift of battle. Now she has like eleven legendaries.

    You can't say she's hard core. She's not focused on anything that requires that. She's dedicated sure, but I don't think this is what people mean when they say hard core player.

    By the same token I know people who don't really have time to play at all, but when they do play they're maximizing their rotation and looking for a raid group that can play during the few hours they have.

    I play a ton of hours, more than most, but I still to more casual content. You might consider me hard core, but I sure don't. I am, however, dedicated to running my largely social guild.

    This. In a game with as much content (albeit more so vertical than horizontal), the line between casual and 'hardcore' gets slightly blurred. Personally, for me, hardcore means 'actively seeking to get better'.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    All the hardcore people left long ago because Anet made it clear that we werent wanted. They destroyed wvw and spvp over this by removing team queue. Raids are dead because the community refuses to learn them and will cry if anet add more. In the week and a half i have returned even FoTM isnt what its supposed to be i barely cleared T4s and i couldnt get any CMs done.

    They have mostly left i was hardcore when i did play and i would be again but so far it seems in the 2 years i was gonna they have only doubled down in tha philosophy thus further alienating that sector of the player base.

    Just my 2 cents so far.

    Regarding your question a hardcore player isnt about time spent but the skill that they have the aptitude to get what they want. A casual can play 10 hours a week and accomplish nothing a hardcore can play 5 hours a week and accomplish everything. Best example there are plenty of pvpers who are great who do not play more hours then casual silver ranked people and yet the silver ranked would play more.

    Another good example is a fightning game you and I could have 300 hours of play time but if you chose to play spend that time casually and no labbing punishment and combos and counter hit attacks and i Did spend time doing that I am going to crush you.

    Edited For clarity.

    I've always had an issue with the amount of time invested in the game as a barometer for casual and hard core.

    I run a fairly casual guild. There's a woman in my guild who doesn't raid, barely does anything in Fractals. Barely does any challenging achievements. Doesn't PvP. But she gathers all the time, constantly, every day, all day. She's not casaul about gathering. She came to me after years of playing and said she was bored and when I asked her why she doesn't make a legendary weapon she told me she heard it was hard. So I started asking her what she had in her inventory. How many obby shards do you have. How many ectos. How many of each of the mats. She already had world complete. By the end of that all she was really missing was a gift of battle. She already had a legendary done. I showed her how to get some easy WvW dalies and use the potions to work on the gift of battle. Now she has like eleven legendaries.

    You can't say she's hard core. She's not focused on anything that requires that. She's dedicated sure, but I don't think this is what people mean when they say hard core player.

    By the same token I know people who don't really have time to play at all, but when they do play they're maximizing their rotation and looking for a raid group that can play during the few hours they have.

    I play a ton of hours, more than most, but I still to more casual content. You might consider me hard core, but I sure don't. I am, however, dedicated to running my largely social guild.

    This. In a game with as much content (albeit more so vertical than horizontal), the line between casual and 'hardcore' gets slightly blurred. Personally, for me, hardcore means 'actively seeking to get better'.

    Where as I passively seek to get better. lol

    I mean I'll look up builds on meta battle and try them....but I won't practice a rotation in front of a dummy. I don't use a damage meter. But I've definitely gotten better too. Actually I think that might be a pretty good definition.

    The only issue might be, some people are trying to get better and don't really know how to and others find getting better a lot easier.

  • There's a lot of issues with the casual / hardcore dichotomy when it's treated as two unique groups. It's really a spectrum, and not just across a single criteria, and people aren't always in one group all the time but can move back and forth as their interest and ability to play change. Here are some spectrums that help define the groups that I can think of - more hard-core on the left, and casual on the right:

    Min-maxing < --- > Playing what build seems fun
    Lots of time in the game < --- > Limited time in the game (maybe playing multiple games, maybe other hobbies, maybe responsibilities)
    Experienced in games / genre / mechanics < --- > Newer to games / genre / mechanics
    100% invested and able < ---- > Less invested or able (tired, holding a baby, health issues, multi-tasking, etc.)
    Cares about winning < --- > Cares about fun and / or socializing
    Prefers competition < --- > Prefers collaboration
    Values good mechanics content < --- > Values good story content.

    As it's a spectrum of many factors and not a binary, single factor - everyone tends to divide the line in the way that supports them getting to play with the kinds of people they want to play with. The issue is that everyone cares about different things. And some of us move along these spectrums - I play differently with my kids than I do when I'm duoing with my husband, or heading into WvW. I could be a hardcore player, in terms of playing ability - but I don't want to, most of the time.

    And then on top of that, because these are spectrums and not binaries, we all set the line based on our own experiences and peer groups. Is 20 hours a week a lot or a little? To someone who plays an hour most days and whose friends may put in even less time, it's a lot - that's hardcore! To someone who plays 4 hours a night and 8 hours on weekends and is in a very active guild, 20 hours a week may seem casual. Some would consider me hardcore based just off of my hours and the fact that I play WvW at all. Others would consider me casual because I often play with less capable players who are my friends and family.

    I do have one judgmental belief: Anyone in WVW who spends time tearing down others who are actually trying, and fills the chat with their complaining about how others aren't good enough at length, isn't a real hardcore player - because they are willing to trash morale that could help their team win. Real hardcore team players either model good playing, or coach on good playing - but either way, they invest in their teammates as well as themselves and put winning over whining. This doesn't mean never giving critical feedback - there's a difference between, "I've been seeing a lot of weak builds lately. If you are a newer player, please check out Metabattle and try out a build targeted at WvW. It's considerate to your teammates to play a decent build", and "OMG these N00bs r totally destroying the game lolz".

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Google is your friend!

    casual
    1.
    relaxed and unconcerned.
    "a casual attitude to life"
    Similar: relaxed, friendly, natural, informal, unceremonious, unpretentious, easy-going, free and easy, uninhibited, open, laid-back
    Opposite: formal
    2.
    not regular or permanent.
    Similar: temporary, part-time, impermanent, freelance, irregular, occasional, intermittent, outside, outsourced
    Opposite: permanent, full-time

    hardcore
    1.
    the most active, committed, or strict members of a group or movement.
    "the party still has a hard core of supporters that will always vote for them"

    1.
    highly committed in one's support for or dedication to something.
    "hardcore gamers"

    I will tell you a shocking truth: A player can be both at any given time. I know it's hard to grasp for many as they like putting labels on others, or themselves. Spoiler alert: a lot of players are both, just not at the same time, obviously. A player that doesn't like playing the meta, doesn't like optimizing or reading guides, but parks as many characters as possible in Malchor's Leap, in order to gather wood daily on a rotation, to make their legendary weapon, shows they are dedicated, committed and active in the game. While they perform their heavy rotation gathering they are being hardcore by definition of the word. A player that enjoys min-maxing, heavy build optimization in order to participate (and win) in monthly PVP tournaments, might also participate in guild events where they meet, socialize, talk and role play, without even using character skills or gear. They are casual by every definition of the word at that time.

    In short: you can't put a label because a player's attitude and playstyle can and will vary over the course of a play session.

  • kratan.4619kratan.4619 Member ✭✭✭

    I consider myself a casual because I am not going to research the encounter or use the most recent meta build. I just play to have fun. I am not going into any instanced group content, maybe with guild friends but that would be it. I still have over 8500 hours played and 28.5k AP, but that is all stuff I can do alone. I would define hardcore as more of a "play meta, know the encounter, speed clear" kind of attitude towards the game.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    Kitty personally considers "hardcore" as optimizing efficiency and pushing the limits as far as possible at whatever thing a person is hardcore about while being competent about it. (though as a side effect, Kitty's found endgame hardcores of their respective gamemodes to be competitive to extreme extents, challenging anyone they deem competent to a competition to show their supremacy).
    For ex. a hardcore raider min-maxes their build for group dps and tries to clear the wings faster and faster. (and often blame the healer if they die to greeding dps)
    A hardcore PVPer optimizes the build for purpose, rolls most of the opponents and maintains very good W/L ratio. (these people have sometimes a tendency to whisper "1v1. Now.")
    Hardcore openworld farmer optimizes their farming routes for maximum profit.
    Hardcore achievement hunters often multitask completing parts of multiple achievements at once whenever possible. WP's Master Day streams are semi-doing that.

    Meanwhile casuals usually have a more relaxed approach on how they do things. They may work on learning to play as well as they can but they're not very focused and competitive about being top-tier player of a gamemode like hardcores usually are.

    And then there's players who don't really fit either type or have features of both types. For ex when it comes to raiding, Kitty's not much of a min-maxer but she does raid in excessive amounts (on multiple accounts weekly) and she's a hardcore buildcrafter/tester. Kitty's also always trying to be top dps in the squad and her boon output is top-notch, but the builds she tries to do those on are far from meta.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .