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  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dralor.3701 said:
    Haven’t had time to read all the comments so I apologize if this has been asked but...

    Evade frames? Protection? Aegis? It seems like you are going ham on damage and not even paying attention to other forms of sustain outside of flat healing.

    One of the biggest issues this games has with pvp is evade and stealth uptime on thief/Mesmer. I don’t have a nicer way to say it but this sounds like more bad design that hasn’t fully been thought through or tested.

    Yup, these changes suck massively because they don't address EASILY the biggest issue which is evade frames being chained.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:
    I feel like this needs to be said here in these threads.

    Everyone needs to remember that this patch was never going to fix anything. It was never intended to, nor was it stated to. This kind of drastic shift in dynamic needed to happen if anything with this games balance was going to change. Not doing so would have simply kept us going in the same vicious circle we have been in for years and that does nothing to help things or move forward.

    This patch hit all the notes I pretty much expected it to;

    It would be chaotic as kitten. √
    Plenty of builds and skills were going to get broken. √
    People were going to rage hardcore at the changes. √
    The patch was never going to be a one fix for anything. √
    The patch was going to be a stepping stone to future changes. √

    The entire point of this patch is to establish a new baseline for future changes and balance fixes going forward. It was meant to be a shift in a different direction, not an overall fix. The only things it fixed were some of the blatant power creep in the game which was asked for by many in the community, if not all. Cal even stated in the very first post of all of these threads that they are looking for feedback on the changes. He also stated that this update is directly intended to be a move to an overall new paradigm in the game.

    Things look drastically different under this new dynamic showcased in the patch, look at it as a whole and give feedback based on that rather than what we know now because the dynamic we know now has clearly not been working out; which was why players even wanted a huge balance patch like this to happen in the first place. We got it, now work with ANet to help make sure the long term changes go well and PvP/WvW over the long term becomes healthier. Short term fixes weren't working, and for the long term fixes to work this was something that sorely needed to happen.

    I know its rough to see much of what it did happen and thinking purely short term it is definitely going to be a mess, but it needs to make a mess so that it can be properly cleaned up so long as their approach going forward is the right one and hopefully it will be so long a they keep to their intent on an increased release cadence for balance changes as well as continuing to heed constructive feedback based on the new dynamic this update will create.

    This is fine but it is kind of pointless to do this without nerfing up-time on in-vulnerabilities and evades. The "power creep" in this game which is most outrageous is clearly the amount of invulns/evasion in this game. The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit. Same for mesmer who can chain invulns for 20 seconds at least. That is what they need to fix before the game is playable.

    And we will see if those things are addressed in the patches after this update. They might not be as large of an issue post patch, we don't know and they don't know, sure they are problems but honestly people have always been able to play around Mirage evades (which you can see took a hit if you read the patch notes; Mirage only gets 50 Endurance, not 100 like every other class), and Pistol Whip also got hit on Thief. Their evades have always been possible to play around (Mirage and Thief), but what had consistently made them more problematic is the damage they can do either while evading or between their evades and that saw attention. Pistol Whip got its damage reduced and its stun duration reduced, Mirage like every other class got power damage reduced along with the aforementioned 50 Endurance change to its dodge.

    Mind you I play neither of those classes and I was able to play around their evades, it just takes some learning. Like I said, though, what made those evade chains most concerning is the amount of damage they could also do along with general sustain. This was a problem every class had in some way. Every class.

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:
    I feel like this needs to be said here in these threads.

    Everyone needs to remember that this patch was never going to fix anything. It was never intended to, nor was it stated to. This kind of drastic shift in dynamic needed to happen if anything with this games balance was going to change. Not doing so would have simply kept us going in the same vicious circle we have been in for years and that does nothing to help things or move forward.

    This patch hit all the notes I pretty much expected it to;

    It would be chaotic as kitten. √
    Plenty of builds and skills were going to get broken. √
    People were going to rage hardcore at the changes. √
    The patch was never going to be a one fix for anything. √
    The patch was going to be a stepping stone to future changes. √

    The entire point of this patch is to establish a new baseline for future changes and balance fixes going forward. It was meant to be a shift in a different direction, not an overall fix. The only things it fixed were some of the blatant power creep in the game which was asked for by many in the community, if not all. Cal even stated in the very first post of all of these threads that they are looking for feedback on the changes. He also stated that this update is directly intended to be a move to an overall new paradigm in the game.

    Things look drastically different under this new dynamic showcased in the patch, look at it as a whole and give feedback based on that rather than what we know now because the dynamic we know now has clearly not been working out; which was why players even wanted a huge balance patch like this to happen in the first place. We got it, now work with ANet to help make sure the long term changes go well and PvP/WvW over the long term becomes healthier. Short term fixes weren't working, and for the long term fixes to work this was something that sorely needed to happen.

    I know its rough to see much of what it did happen and thinking purely short term it is definitely going to be a mess, but it needs to make a mess so that it can be properly cleaned up so long as their approach going forward is the right one and hopefully it will be so long a they keep to their intent on an increased release cadence for balance changes as well as continuing to heed constructive feedback based on the new dynamic this update will create.

    This is fine but it is kind of pointless to do this without nerfing up-time on in-vulnerabilities and evades. The "power creep" in this game which is most outrageous is clearly the amount of invulns/evasion in this game. The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit. Same for mesmer who can chain invulns for 20 seconds at least. That is what they need to fix before the game is playable.

    And we will see if those things are addressed in the patches after this update. They might not be as large of an issue post patch, we don't know and they don't know, sure they are problems but honestly people have always been able to play around Mirage evades (which you can see took a hit if you read the patch notes; Mirage only gets 50 Endurance, not 100 like every other class), and Pistol Whip also got hit on Thief. Their evades have always been possible to play around (Mirage and Thief), but what had consistently made them more problematic is the damage they can do either while evading or between their evades and that saw attention. Pistol Whip got its damage reduced and its stun duration reduced, Mirage like every other class got power damage reduced along with the aforementioned 50 Endurance change to its dodge.

    Mind you I play neither of those classes and I was able to play around their evades, it just takes some learning. Like I said, though, what made those evade chains most concerning is the amount of damage they could also do along with general sustain. This was a problem every class had in some way. Every class.

    We won't see those thing addressed ever. They had 5 years to address them and never did. And it is the biggest problem in the game by far. Its so easy for them to fix too. Just go through all evade/invuln skills and edit the numbers (cooldowns in particular) in pvp only. SOOO easy to do but basically ZERO PERCENT chance they do it. Its over.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:
    I feel like this needs to be said here in these threads.

    Everyone needs to remember that this patch was never going to fix anything. It was never intended to, nor was it stated to. This kind of drastic shift in dynamic needed to happen if anything with this games balance was going to change. Not doing so would have simply kept us going in the same vicious circle we have been in for years and that does nothing to help things or move forward.

    This patch hit all the notes I pretty much expected it to;

    It would be chaotic as kitten. √
    Plenty of builds and skills were going to get broken. √
    People were going to rage hardcore at the changes. √
    The patch was never going to be a one fix for anything. √
    The patch was going to be a stepping stone to future changes. √

    The entire point of this patch is to establish a new baseline for future changes and balance fixes going forward. It was meant to be a shift in a different direction, not an overall fix. The only things it fixed were some of the blatant power creep in the game which was asked for by many in the community, if not all. Cal even stated in the very first post of all of these threads that they are looking for feedback on the changes. He also stated that this update is directly intended to be a move to an overall new paradigm in the game.

    Things look drastically different under this new dynamic showcased in the patch, look at it as a whole and give feedback based on that rather than what we know now because the dynamic we know now has clearly not been working out; which was why players even wanted a huge balance patch like this to happen in the first place. We got it, now work with ANet to help make sure the long term changes go well and PvP/WvW over the long term becomes healthier. Short term fixes weren't working, and for the long term fixes to work this was something that sorely needed to happen.

    I know its rough to see much of what it did happen and thinking purely short term it is definitely going to be a mess, but it needs to make a mess so that it can be properly cleaned up so long as their approach going forward is the right one and hopefully it will be so long a they keep to their intent on an increased release cadence for balance changes as well as continuing to heed constructive feedback based on the new dynamic this update will create.

    This is fine but it is kind of pointless to do this without nerfing up-time on in-vulnerabilities and evades. The "power creep" in this game which is most outrageous is clearly the amount of invulns/evasion in this game. The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit. Same for mesmer who can chain invulns for 20 seconds at least. That is what they need to fix before the game is playable.

    And we will see if those things are addressed in the patches after this update. They might not be as large of an issue post patch, we don't know and they don't know, sure they are problems but honestly people have always been able to play around Mirage evades (which you can see took a hit if you read the patch notes; Mirage only gets 50 Endurance, not 100 like every other class), and Pistol Whip also got hit on Thief. Their evades have always been possible to play around (Mirage and Thief), but what had consistently made them more problematic is the damage they can do either while evading or between their evades and that saw attention. Pistol Whip got its damage reduced and its stun duration reduced, Mirage like every other class got power damage reduced along with the aforementioned 50 Endurance change to its dodge.

    Mind you I play neither of those classes and I was able to play around their evades, it just takes some learning. Like I said, though, what made those evade chains most concerning is the amount of damage they could also do along with general sustain. This was a problem every class had in some way. Every class.

    We won't see those thing addressed ever. They had 5 years to address them and never did. And it is the biggest problem in the game by far. Its so easy for them to fix too. Just go through all evade/invuln skills and edit the numbers (cooldowns in particular) in pvp only. SOOO easy to do but basically ZERO PERCENT chance they do it. Its over.

    Except I just said that they did address some of it...whether or not they address evade frames more is yet to be seen, if they even have to at all based on how things play out with this update.

    Again, they cut Mirage's Endurance down to 50. That is only 1 bar of Endurance which means they can only store 1 dodge at any given time. Thats a reduction in their evades...

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Rickster.8752 said:
    The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit.
    Same for mesmer who can chain invulns for 20 seconds at least. That is what they need to fix before the game is playable (in silver).

    Yes agree, i think Mesmers and Thieves should not have endurance bars at all. To not buff Mirage and Daredevil compared to core they then should get a negative endurance bar with -50 (can be further decreased, i suggest it decreases depending on the skill lvl decrease of the remaining ppl in this game) or they just implode when accidently hitting a dodge button.

    On a serious note: The bigger problem are specs can non-reactively and passive facetank forever while having even more active defense on top of that they can chain. While not even having low bunker dmg. And neither Thief (few build exceptions) nor a Chaosline Mirage have first or second spot in that category. In terms of facetanking both are even last while also not leading in terms of chainable active defense. And that even currently pre nerf. Big rofl

    (i know around 3 thief builds can nearly perma dodge but most of them are, funny as it is, not even meta)

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • hotte in space.2158hotte in space.2158 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    We won't see those thing addressed ever. They had 5 years to address them and never did. And it is the biggest problem in the game by far. Its so easy for them to fix too. Just go through all evade/invuln skills and edit the numbers (cooldowns in particular) in pvp only. SOOO easy to do but basically ZERO PERCENT chance they do it. Its over.

    Do you know that PvP dev-team has got a new chief ? Cal Cohen, hes a PvP player, he knows what its all about and since he is here, things are starting to get happen.

    1) hugest patch ever coming soon
    2) previews
    3) they listen to our feedback and even give feedback
    4) balance patches intended every 6 weeks plus hotfixes
    5) although the next patch makes everbody gasp, most players agree that its the right direction
    6) and no, I dont get paid by arena-net

    What could we want more in the current situation ? In terms of the future of PvP, I was pessimistic the last years. But now its time for hope again :)

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    What could we want more in the current situation ?

    Touching the over-the-top defensives and utilities before touching the damage.
    Especially:
    1) significant reduction of Stealth duration and removal of finishing while stealthed,
    2) removing evade from several skills, most notoriously Death Blossom and Daggerstorm
    3) no more finishing with Shrink Elixir or other immunities,
    If nothing can touch you, you shouldn't be able to touch anything either.
    4) Barrier application should get toned down a bit, too.

    Also, rather than making Weapon skills with CC on them deal no damage, the CC should get nerfed.
    Let utility skills do the utility and have weapons do damage.

  • Eos.4269Eos.4269 Member ✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Rickster.8752 said:
    The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit.

    If, by "sword 3", you're referring to Pistol Whip, it can only be used it 3 times in a row unless you burn a steal to get more initiative, then you can use it 4 times. It also can be interrupted during the cast of the stun and has more after cast than the evasion lasts for. Thief also has limited defensive options, and actually has less evasion than it originally did (increased initiative costs, rune of the adventurer, sigil or energy, and signet of agility nerfs), so I assume what you actually dislike is an evade that deals damage at the end if you facetank it.

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @hotte in space.2158 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    We won't see those thing addressed ever. They had 5 years to address them and never did. And it is the biggest problem in the game by far. Its so easy for them to fix too. Just go through all evade/invuln skills and edit the numbers (cooldowns in particular) in pvp only. SOOO easy to do but basically ZERO PERCENT chance they do it. Its over.

    Do you know that PvP dev-team has got a new chief ? Cal Cohen, hes a PvP player, he knows what its all about and since he is here, things are starting to get happen.

    1) hugest patch ever coming soon
    2) previews
    3) they listen to our feedback and even give feedback
    4) balance patches intended every 6 weeks plus hotfixes
    5) although the next patch makes everbody gasp, most players agree that its the right direction
    6) and no, I dont get paid by arena-net

    What could we want more in the current situation ? In terms of the future of PvP, I was pessimistic the last years. But now its time for hope again :)

    Irrelevant. The top talent has left the dev team a year after release. They designed the game to have some meaningful choices in the traits you took. That will never happen again because there is only so much they can do, they cannot rework these evasion mechanics because pve relies on them. So it is impossible for them to fix the issues. The only thing they can do is to increase the cooldown of all evasion skills by about 100% in pvp but that will never happen because it would make the game so different to PvE and they won't do that.

    If they knew what they were doing they would hit the evasion/immunity mechanics in the same patch they reduced damage. But they didn't do this which means they don't see it as a problem which means they have no clue at all about the true problems of the game which is the power creep. The reason you need high damage skills is because theif/mesmer/ele/others can spam 20s seconds of evade/immunity in a row so the 1 time you manage to hit them it needs to matter. The fact they did not address this evade/immunity says it all

    The game is just not a pvp game and never will be. They diverted from that path long ago and they cannot go back now. These changes do nothing besides lower a few damage numbers. The core "power creep" in the game still exists as many of the classes can still evade/be immune for 20 or 30 seconds in a row. Think about how absurd that is. 20-30 seconds of evasion in a row. And it will never change. The game is dead. Give up.

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eos.4269 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:
    The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit.

    If, by "sword 3", you're referring to Pistol Whip, it can only be used it 3 times in a row unless you burn a steal to get more initiative, then you can use it 4 times. It also can be interrupted during the cast of the stun and has more after cast than the evasion lasts for. Thief also has limited defensive options, and actually has less evasion than it originally did (increased initiative costs, rune of the adventurer, sigil or energy, and signet of agility nerfs), so I assume what you actually dislike is an evade that deals damage at the end if you facetank it.

    "Thief has limited defensive options".
    Hilarious statement. Honestly a well played thief should only die very very rarely and usually to another thief. The game has been like this for years and years. Thief is EASILY the hardest class to kill. It has the most defensive options by far. And I meant flanking strike but there are many skills which provide evasion on very short cooldowns on many class.

    This isn't about a specific class anyway, thief is just the most obvious example. People like you who can't see past their own class are why this game is deader than dead. The game needs healthy mechanics. Perma evasion/immunity is not healthy mechanics and is conceptually brokenly OP.

    But go ahead and get defensive about your "main class" whilst the entire game continues to die.

  • hotte in space.2158hotte in space.2158 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    significant reduction of Stealth duration and removal of finishing while stealthed,

    I absolutely agree with this point

    removing evade from several skills, most notoriously Death Blossom and Daggerstorm

    the one ore another evade skill should be touched and will be touched, but I think its the right strategy to first see how PvP works after the patch

    no more finishing with Shrink Elixir or other immunities

    not a big issue but could be discussed when a certain level of balance has been achieved

    If nothing can touch you, you shouldn't be able to touch anything either

    doesnt necessarily have to be seen like this

    Barrier application should get toned down a bit, too

    eventually/probably yes, but I think here too, that its good to wait and see the effects of the patch first

    Also, rather than making Weapon skills with CC on them deal no damage, the CC should get nerfed.
    Let utility skills do the utility and have weapons do damage.

    thats a bit too much of in general in my opinion. Weapon/utility/all skills should be looked at, but in an individual way

    To balance the mess we were in the last 3 years is not an easy job. It will take at least a year and can only be done step by step !
    Give dev-team a chance :)

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Eos.4269 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:
    The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit.

    If, by "sword 3", you're referring to Pistol Whip, it can only be used it 3 times in a row unless you burn a steal to get more initiative, then you can use it 4 times. It also can be interrupted during the cast of the stun and has more after cast than the evasion lasts for. Thief also has limited defensive options, and actually has less evasion than it originally did (increased initiative costs, rune of the adventurer, sigil or energy, and signet of agility nerfs), so I assume what you actually dislike is an evade that deals damage at the end if you facetank it.

    "Thief has limited defensive options".
    Hilarious statement. Honestly a well played thief should only die very very rarely and usually to another thief. The game has been like this for years and years. Thief is EASILY the hardest class to kill. It has the most defensive options by far. And I meant flanking strike but there are many skills which provide evasion on very short cooldowns on many class.

    This isn't about a specific class anyway, thief is just the most obvious example. People like you who can't see past their own class are why this game is deader than dead. The game needs healthy mechanics. Perma evasion/immunity is not healthy mechanics and is conceptually brokenly OP.

    But go ahead and get defensive about your "main class" whilst the entire game continues to die.

    Your problem is Flanking Strike? You realize not only does it consume 4 Initiative the distance it travels is rather small compared to other initiative draining skills for mobility or evades, all of which have higher initiative costs or longer cooldowns. Not only that if Flanking Strike hits anything it changes into Larcenous Strike which persists for 4 seconds unless its used and even if you do use it that action within itself is a visible moment of vulnerability that can be and is exploited frequently.

    As for other immunity skills and invuln skills they all are either getting longer cooldowns or in the case of Ele's Obsidian Flesh which is getting altered to now lock them out of using their skills.

    Each of these immunity and invuln mechanics, even evades, that you're referencing all have methods of playing around them rather easily and they are all either getting cooldown increases or in regards to Mesmer they are losing 50 Endurance. Sure they contribute to longer TTK but they are defensive cooldowns that can be played around and you can apply pressure and secure kills between their uses. Even after the patch this will be possible. In fact they've essentially removed some of the problematic ones like the passives on Warrior and Ranger which auto proc Endure Pain or Signet of Stone by adding 5 minute internal cooldowns to them, these will just flat out not be used because of that and that was the point until they can rework those traits.

    I don't quite get what your focus on thief is...it seems to me like you've been savaged a number of times by them but I can assure you they are beatable, even the good ones, you just don't quite seem to have the tactics down for it is all. Not to mention a number of their problem mechanics, we'll leave stealth out of this for now, are seeing attention and getting nerfs or being brought in line so they aren't so unhealthy.

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Eos.4269 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:
    The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit.

    If, by "sword 3", you're referring to Pistol Whip, it can only be used it 3 times in a row unless you burn a steal to get more initiative, then you can use it 4 times. It also can be interrupted during the cast of the stun and has more after cast than the evasion lasts for. Thief also has limited defensive options, and actually has less evasion than it originally did (increased initiative costs, rune of the adventurer, sigil or energy, and signet of agility nerfs), so I assume what you actually dislike is an evade that deals damage at the end if you facetank it.

    "Thief has limited defensive options".
    Hilarious statement. Honestly a well played thief should only die very very rarely and usually to another thief. The game has been like this for years and years. Thief is EASILY the hardest class to kill. It has the most defensive options by far. And I meant flanking strike but there are many skills which provide evasion on very short cooldowns on many class.

    This isn't about a specific class anyway, thief is just the most obvious example. People like you who can't see past their own class are why this game is deader than dead. The game needs healthy mechanics. Perma evasion/immunity is not healthy mechanics and is conceptually brokenly OP.

    But go ahead and get defensive about your "main class" whilst the entire game continues to die.

    Your problem is Flanking Strike? You realize not only does it consume 4 Initiative the distance it travels is rather small compared to other initiative draining skills for mobility or evades, all of which have higher initiative costs or longer cooldowns. Not only that if Flanking Strike hits anything it changes into Larcenous Strike which persists for 4 seconds unless its used and even if you do use it that action within itself is a visible moment of vulnerability that can be and is exploited frequently.

    As for other immunity skills and invuln skills they all are either getting longer cooldowns or in the case of Ele's Obsidian Flesh which is getting altered to now lock them out of using their skills.

    Each of these immunity and invuln mechanics, even evades, that you're referencing all have methods of playing around them rather easily and they are all either getting cooldown increases or in regards to Mesmer they are losing 50 Endurance. Sure they contribute to longer TTK but they are defensive cooldowns that can be played around and you can apply pressure and secure kills between their uses. Even after the patch this will be possible. In fact they've essentially removed some of the problematic ones like the passives on Warrior and Ranger which auto proc Endure Pain or Signet of Stone by adding 5 minute internal cooldowns to them, these will just flat out not be used because of that and that was the point until they can rework those traits.

    I don't quite get what your focus on thief is...it seems to me like you've been savaged a number of times by them but I can assure you they are beatable, even the good ones, you just don't quite seem to have the tactics down for it is all. Not to mention a number of their problem mechanics, we'll leave stealth out of this for now, are seeing attention and getting nerfs or being brought in line so they aren't so unhealthy.

    lol "evasion and invuln uptime isn't a problem". Funny, thought you all would have woken up and realised it has been a huge problem for years but never mind. Enjoy your dead game whilst the devs just tune random numbers that do nothing to change the spam nature of the gameplay because people can just evade/invuln 30 seconds in a row. "compelling gameplay" to learn a rotation which makes you invulnerable to any damage for 20 seconds. Much fun.

    enjoyyourdeadgame

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Eos.4269 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:
    The reason there is high damage is because its so hard to hit a thief who can spam sword 3 5 times ina row, with dodges and withdraw so they will NEVER be hit.

    If, by "sword 3", you're referring to Pistol Whip, it can only be used it 3 times in a row unless you burn a steal to get more initiative, then you can use it 4 times. It also can be interrupted during the cast of the stun and has more after cast than the evasion lasts for. Thief also has limited defensive options, and actually has less evasion than it originally did (increased initiative costs, rune of the adventurer, sigil or energy, and signet of agility nerfs), so I assume what you actually dislike is an evade that deals damage at the end if you facetank it.

    "Thief has limited defensive options".
    Hilarious statement. Honestly a well played thief should only die very very rarely and usually to another thief. The game has been like this for years and years. Thief is EASILY the hardest class to kill. It has the most defensive options by far. And I meant flanking strike but there are many skills which provide evasion on very short cooldowns on many class.

    This isn't about a specific class anyway, thief is just the most obvious example. People like you who can't see past their own class are why this game is deader than dead. The game needs healthy mechanics. Perma evasion/immunity is not healthy mechanics and is conceptually brokenly OP.

    But go ahead and get defensive about your "main class" whilst the entire game continues to die.

    Your problem is Flanking Strike? You realize not only does it consume 4 Initiative the distance it travels is rather small compared to other initiative draining skills for mobility or evades, all of which have higher initiative costs or longer cooldowns. Not only that if Flanking Strike hits anything it changes into Larcenous Strike which persists for 4 seconds unless its used and even if you do use it that action within itself is a visible moment of vulnerability that can be and is exploited frequently.

    As for other immunity skills and invuln skills they all are either getting longer cooldowns or in the case of Ele's Obsidian Flesh which is getting altered to now lock them out of using their skills.

    Each of these immunity and invuln mechanics, even evades, that you're referencing all have methods of playing around them rather easily and they are all either getting cooldown increases or in regards to Mesmer they are losing 50 Endurance. Sure they contribute to longer TTK but they are defensive cooldowns that can be played around and you can apply pressure and secure kills between their uses. Even after the patch this will be possible. In fact they've essentially removed some of the problematic ones like the passives on Warrior and Ranger which auto proc Endure Pain or Signet of Stone by adding 5 minute internal cooldowns to them, these will just flat out not be used because of that and that was the point until they can rework those traits.

    I don't quite get what your focus on thief is...it seems to me like you've been savaged a number of times by them but I can assure you they are beatable, even the good ones, you just don't quite seem to have the tactics down for it is all. Not to mention a number of their problem mechanics, we'll leave stealth out of this for now, are seeing attention and getting nerfs or being brought in line so they aren't so unhealthy.

    lol "evasion and invuln uptime isn't a problem". Funny, thought you all would have woken up and realised it has been a huge problem for years but never mind. Enjoy your dead game whilst the devs just tune random numbers that do nothing to change the spam nature of the gameplay because people can just evade/invuln 30 seconds in a row. "compelling gameplay" to learn a rotation which makes you invulnerable to any damage for 20 seconds. Much fun.

    enjoyyourdeadgame

    I provided a retort to your points that was backed up with information on how skills function along with an example of how the specific skill you specified can be countered or played around. I also explained to you that unhealthy skills and traits were addressed in some form in the update notes yet you seem to not be acknowledging how said skills and traits were big contributors to this invlun/evade uptime you are complaining about. You've instantly resorted to being patronizing, even more so I should say, rather than try to explain your point by backing it up with information as opposed to just tossing out random "trigger" phrases like "people can just evade/invuln for 30 seconds in a row" to exaggerate the situation and make it seem more extreme than it is. You're frustrated when fighting certain classes ingame, I get it, but rather than being rational you're using an aspect of gameplay that will be addressed ingame with the update, ignoring this fact and trying to use that to justify your frustration.

    Since your focus seems to be on Thief still, and since it is one of only two classes (Mirage being the other) that can chain together lengthy evades I assume Daredevil is your main target due to the availability of evades? If this is the case, sure, Daredevil has a lot of evades but you can time your attacks around them. For any one of their evades (bound, dash, etc) you can time a CC for the end of their animations and catch them in it. I know this because I've done it, other people have done it and Thieves have also suggested it to people to do it.

    You're essentially choosing to not only ignore the contents of the update and the things it will be addressing but you're also ignoring the information that is essentially proving your complaints wrong. Ultimately we don't quite know what will happen after the patch but based on the notes themselves both damage and sustain have been brought down. Yes this does include some of the invulns and evades you have complaints about, though I imagine with your focus centered, apparently, solely on Thief you won't be satisfied until they get gutted of their defenses completely.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    I cannot get over the thought of how ridiculously slow soulbeast is going to feel after the patch.

    We lose access to 7 skills by removing a pet and GS cooldowns got increased by a lot. Like this pet nerf is probably just as harsh if not harsher than removing an attunement as the tradeoff to Weaver. It's insane.

    I'm going to feel like a snail. I can't imagine how this game could possibly be fun if all I'm doing is spamming autos while my cooldowns are all on recharge. Zzz

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I cannot get over the thought of how ridiculously slow soulbeast is going to feel after the patch.

    We lose access to 7 skills by removing a pet and GS cooldowns got increased by a lot. Like this pet nerf is probably just as harsh if not harsher than removing an attunement as the tradeoff to Weaver. It's insane.

    I'm going to feel like a snail. I can't imagine how this game could possibly be fun if all I'm doing is spamming autos while my cooldowns are all on recharge. Zzz

    If you think that harsh then you never heard of chrono or havent seen incoming "onedodgeman". But yes, this will hurt :)
    GS was bloated to begin with for a long time. Every single change on it was justified, maul was practically untouched, be greatful.
    Oh no! Cant spam as often as before. /s

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I cannot get over the thought of how ridiculously slow soulbeast is going to feel after the patch.

    We lose access to 7 skills by removing a pet and GS cooldowns got increased by a lot. Like this pet nerf is probably just as harsh if not harsher than removing an attunement as the tradeoff to Weaver. It's insane.

    I'm going to feel like a snail. I can't imagine how this game could possibly be fun if all I'm doing is spamming autos while my cooldowns are all on recharge. Zzz

    If you think that harsh then you never heard of chrono or havent seen incoming "onedodgeman". But yes, this will hurt :)
    GS was bloated to begin with for a long time. Every single change on it was justified, maul was practically untouched, be greatful.
    Oh no! Cant spam as often as before. /s

    If you think that's harsh, then you never heard of Druid.

    Hm that's interesting. I must've missed all of the times GS rangers were dominating the meta? -ahem- like condi mirage, core mes, and chrono -cough-

    Druid has been dead for years and got hard nerfs consistently starting shortly after release (and it's still getting nerfed :joy:), Soulbeast was barely meta for a solid 3 months, and core ranger hasn't been competitive since core gw2. Druid was probably the longest running ranger spec that had a spot in the meta and that was just because spamming 1 on staff was enough to kill + outheal everything and CA had too much reset potential for exactly 1 year out of the 8 years this game has existed.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I cannot get over the thought of how ridiculously slow soulbeast is going to feel after the patch.

    We lose access to 7 skills by removing a pet and GS cooldowns got increased by a lot. Like this pet nerf is probably just as harsh if not harsher than removing an attunement as the tradeoff to Weaver. It's insane.

    I'm going to feel like a snail. I can't imagine how this game could possibly be fun if all I'm doing is spamming autos while my cooldowns are all on recharge. Zzz

    If you think that harsh then you never heard of chrono or havent seen incoming "onedodgeman". But yes, this will hurt :)
    GS was bloated to begin with for a long time. Every single change on it was justified, maul was practically untouched, be greatful.
    Oh no! Cant spam as often as before. /s

    If you think that's harsh, then you never heard of Druid.

    Hm that's interesting. I must've missed all of the times GS rangers were dominating the meta? -ahem- like condi mirage, core mes, and chrono -cough-

    Druid has been dead for years and got hard nerfs consistently starting shortly after release (and it's still getting nerfed :joy:), Soulbeast was barely meta for a solid 3 months, and core ranger hasn't been competitive since core gw2.

    I'm well aware about state of the druid and I spoke about "trade offs". None of these "trade offs" are harsh as chrono and made them so unplayble at mechanical level (berserk is the closest but at least his BM isnt on 105s cd).
    Because ranger havent been the meta choice it should get a free pass on everything? Or what is your point there?
    Okay, name any weapon that comes close to ranger greatsword. That has spammable DPS skill on super low cd (which also buffed 50% dmg of the pet next attack, enabled the most uninteractive builds with pet oneshots in CC chains), evade/mobility/leap finisher skill at one, channeled block which had the only drawback when you were hit at melee with a counter CC kick (not always great but with recent buff its just insane), a hard CC that reset that DPS skill.
    Not meta =/= garbage. If I understood you correctly, you trying to tell me GS is fine because ranger wasnt meta...? Then... this makes no sense?

    Druid was probably the longest running ranger spec that had a spot in the meta and that was just because spamming 1 on staff was enough to kill + outheal everything and CA had too much reset potential for exactly 1 year out of the 8 years this game has existed.

    Spamming 1 was never enough to kill everything, swapping to BBack and givin it 25 migth quickness while he is immobed and CC'ed = oneshot or close enough to finish. Pets were OP as hell and neither druid or pet was killable and he could easly kite 2 or even 3 people (if druid was really good at it). Sadly, I dont remember exact date when druid became "irrelevant".

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I cannot get over the thought of how ridiculously slow soulbeast is going to feel after the patch.

    We lose access to 7 skills by removing a pet and GS cooldowns got increased by a lot. Like this pet nerf is probably just as harsh if not harsher than removing an attunement as the tradeoff to Weaver. It's insane.

    I'm going to feel like a snail. I can't imagine how this game could possibly be fun if all I'm doing is spamming autos while my cooldowns are all on recharge. Zzz

    If you think that harsh then you never heard of chrono or havent seen incoming "onedodgeman". But yes, this will hurt :)
    GS was bloated to begin with for a long time. Every single change on it was justified, maul was practically untouched, be greatful.
    Oh no! Cant spam as often as before. /s

    If you think that's harsh, then you never heard of Druid.

    Hm that's interesting. I must've missed all of the times GS rangers were dominating the meta? -ahem- like condi mirage, core mes, and chrono -cough-

    Druid has been dead for years and got hard nerfs consistently starting shortly after release (and it's still getting nerfed :joy:), Soulbeast was barely meta for a solid 3 months, and core ranger hasn't been competitive since core gw2.

    I'm well aware about state of the druid and I spoke about "trade offs". None of these "trade offs" are harsh as chrono and made them so unplayble at mechanical level (berserk is the closest but at least his BM isnt on 105s cd).
    Because ranger havent been the meta choice it should get a free pass on everything? Or what is your point there?
    Okay, name any weapon that comes close to ranger greatsword. That has spammable DPS skill on super low cd (which also buffed 50% dmg of the pet next attack, enabled the most uninteractive builds with pet oneshots in CC chains), evade/mobility/leap finisher skill at one, channeled block which had the only drawback when you were hit at melee with a counter CC kick (not always great but with recent buff its just insane), a hard CC that reset that DPS skill.
    Not meta =/= garbage. If I understood you correctly, you trying to tell me GS is fine because ranger wasnt meta...? Then... this makes no sense?

    Druid was probably the longest running ranger spec that had a spot in the meta and that was just because spamming 1 on staff was enough to kill + outheal everything and CA had too much reset potential for exactly 1 year out of the 8 years this game has existed.

    Spamming 1 was never enough to kill everything, swapping to BBack and givin it 25 migth quickness while he is immobed and CC'ed = oneshot or close enough to finish. Pets were OP as hell and neither druid or pet was killable and he could easly kite 2 or even 3 people (if druid was really good at it). Sadly, I dont remember exact date when druid became "irrelevant".

    Okay so you're asking me to name another weapon with the EXACT same skills as ranger greatsword? LMAO

    Ranger gets nerfed hard, frequently even though it's only ever been somewhat viable in the meta. It has gotten nerfed within days, weeks, and months after receiving anything remotely strong. Like how come Anet let perma all-boons super tank phantasm spam massive damage chrono go on for months yet they HARD nerfed things like Druid shortly after it released? Holo, FB, and condi mirage have or are STILL dominating the meta and they were basically left alone to run rampant.

    Not meta = not the most effective tactic available = has strengths AND weaknesses = balanced

    Meta builds usually are meta because they are not only easy to play, but extremely effective with little to no downsides. To use ranger GS as an example, the autos are slow and deal low-moderate damage, maul can be avoided through movement alone, swoop can be CC'd during the first half of the animation before the evade if the ranger is using it to run away and deals low damage, the block can be baited out similarly to a Spellbreaker's Full Counter and the knockback can be avoided through movement because it's stationary, and Hilt Bash can't be stowed and can be avoided through movement alone (also stationary lol). A.K.A. the only attack you can't completely avoid on ranger GS solely through movement is Swoop and it doesn't even hit hard. Honestly, if people aren't soft/hard CC'd and wasting dodges vs. a GS ranger they are doing something wrong.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

    Awww people who still can't see past their own class. All evades/invulns have to be toned down (they are not being enough) and then all damage needs to be toned down and high damage skills should have long cast times so skilled players can dodge them.
    Like I said though, people can't see past their own classes. The game is therefore deader than dead. Balance doesn't even matter at this stage. It should be about fixing the game and making it skill based again. Reducing everything needs to happen. Evades and invulns need big nerfs to reduce their up-time. And damage needs to be toned down too, in particular on instant cast skills and auto attacks.

    Pretty obvious stuff that anet do not understand and players who cannot see past their own class cannot understand. Result of this = the game is dead. And also will not be coming back despite amazing combat mechanics that came from the original devs

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I cannot get over the thought of how ridiculously slow soulbeast is going to feel after the patch.

    We lose access to 7 skills by removing a pet and GS cooldowns got increased by a lot. Like this pet nerf is probably just as harsh if not harsher than removing an attunement as the tradeoff to Weaver. It's insane.

    I'm going to feel like a snail. I can't imagine how this game could possibly be fun if all I'm doing is spamming autos while my cooldowns are all on recharge. Zzz

    If you think that harsh then you never heard of chrono or havent seen incoming "onedodgeman". But yes, this will hurt :)
    GS was bloated to begin with for a long time. Every single change on it was justified, maul was practically untouched, be greatful.
    Oh no! Cant spam as often as before. /s

    If you think that's harsh, then you never heard of Druid.

    Hm that's interesting. I must've missed all of the times GS rangers were dominating the meta? -ahem- like condi mirage, core mes, and chrono -cough-

    Druid has been dead for years and got hard nerfs consistently starting shortly after release (and it's still getting nerfed :joy:), Soulbeast was barely meta for a solid 3 months, and core ranger hasn't been competitive since core gw2.

    I'm well aware about state of the druid and I spoke about "trade offs". None of these "trade offs" are harsh as chrono and made them so unplayble at mechanical level (berserk is the closest but at least his BM isnt on 105s cd).
    Because ranger havent been the meta choice it should get a free pass on everything? Or what is your point there?
    Okay, name any weapon that comes close to ranger greatsword. That has spammable DPS skill on super low cd (which also buffed 50% dmg of the pet next attack, enabled the most uninteractive builds with pet oneshots in CC chains), evade/mobility/leap finisher skill at one, channeled block which had the only drawback when you were hit at melee with a counter CC kick (not always great but with recent buff its just insane), a hard CC that reset that DPS skill.
    Not meta =/= garbage. If I understood you correctly, you trying to tell me GS is fine because ranger wasnt meta...? Then... this makes no sense?

    Druid was probably the longest running ranger spec that had a spot in the meta and that was just because spamming 1 on staff was enough to kill + outheal everything and CA had too much reset potential for exactly 1 year out of the 8 years this game has existed.

    Spamming 1 was never enough to kill everything, swapping to BBack and givin it 25 migth quickness while he is immobed and CC'ed = oneshot or close enough to finish. Pets were OP as hell and neither druid or pet was killable and he could easly kite 2 or even 3 people (if druid was really good at it). Sadly, I dont remember exact date when druid became "irrelevant".

    Okay so you're asking me to name another weapon with the EXACT same skills as ranger greatsword? LMAO

    A weapon that has everything starting from spammable DPS skill that ends up with a hard cc and block. L M A O

    Ranger gets nerfed hard, frequently even though it's only ever been somewhat viable in the meta. It has gotten nerfed within days, weeks, and months after receiving anything remotely strong. Like how come Anet let perma all-boons super tank phantasm spam massive damage chrono go on for months yet they HARD nerfed things like Druid shortly after it released? Holo, FB, and condi mirage have or are STILL dominating the meta and they were basically left alone to run rampant.

    They arent smart with how to deal with problems may be? Because their decisions in the first place would affect PVE. For an example - chrono post phantasm rework - the only thing that was needed to be done is to delete CP but they couldnt because that would ruin their PVE balance, also dont give phantasms 500% damage and keep them low in pvp at least?

    Meta builds usually are meta because they are not only easy to play, but extremely effective with little to no downsides. To use ranger GS as an example, the autos are slow and deal low-moderate damage, maul can be avoided through movement alone, swoop can be CC'd during the first half of the animation before the evade if the ranger is using it to run away and deals low damage, the block can be baited out similarly to a Spellbreaker's Full Counter and the knockback can be avoided through movement because it's stationary, and Hilt Bash can't be stowed and can be avoided through movement alone (also stationary lol). A.K.A. the only attack you can't completely avoid on ranger GS solely through movement is Swoop and it doesn't even hit hard. Honestly, if people aren't soft/hard CC'd and wasting dodges vs. a GS ranger they are doing something wrong.

    Ranger damage is all about stacking stupid amount of damage modifiers/might, I wouldnt say it does so little damage, especially when its slightly lower than guardian autos.
    I dont even think ranger should be on par in terms of solo damage because of his pet is also does damage/cc and stuff with you. More than sure its the reason why its not on par with warrior and guardian but slightly lower (but in the end soulbeast and his damage modifiers can do abnormal amount of damage as we seen and brining to an end to it with their stylish trade off?)
    Maul avoided through movement alone? If you use it like from 600 range away, sure, I would turn my character and walk away,if you use the skill in range of its effective radius you can walk after the guy who is trying to walk away as well, how would he avoid it through movement ???????? I dont know, you do have a pet that also can flip over that person in CC so you could land it ? Just a thought.
    Swoop - does slightly less damage than guardian leap of faith that has no evade frames tied to it at all and less range, time frame to CC the range is too low to be noticable, but I bet you would be like "I can see them swooping and interrupt it even in my sleep!" and keep self stroking like in your other thread with Chaith that quickly got fed of it, lol.
    I legit dont understand "bait ranger's block" ? kitten? What I see - ranger's block is 3s long block, at his will he can initiate a counter kick in your face with his foot while evading, effectively combing the shield stance (25s cd) on the warrior and spellbreaker full counter... Yea, try to tell me it wasnt justified.
    And the hilt bash (thats not completely stationary, it does a small dash into target direction), again, using it out of its range, sure, if there would be no need to fight on points I guess? You arent willing to use it with a pet to set it up for CC chain ?
    Current ranger GS state = busted.

    Not meta = not the most effective tactic available = has strengths AND weaknesses = balanced

    Jeez, you be like CHRONO/core PU mesmer dominates meta ! Wow. Chrono made a comeback because of phantasm rework to get smitersbooned out of existence later/core mesmer is gone as soon thief arrived. So what? HOT specs didnt disappear from PoF launch because they were balanced but because they were inferior. The same situation with current classes that are STRONG but below the meta and doesnt mean they are balanced at all.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

    Awww people who still can't see past their own class. All evades/invulns have to be toned down (they are not being enough) and then all damage needs to be toned down and high damage skills should have long cast times so skilled players can dodge them.
    Like I said though, people can't see past their own classes. The game is therefore deader than dead. Balance doesn't even matter at this stage. It should be about fixing the game and making it skill based again. Reducing everything needs to happen. Evades and invulns need big nerfs to reduce their up-time. And damage needs to be toned down too, in particular on instant cast skills and auto attacks.

    Pretty obvious stuff that anet do not understand and players who cannot see past their own class cannot understand. Result of this = the game is dead. And also will not be coming back despite amazing combat mechanics that came from the original devs

    Awww people doesnt understand the very basics of balancing and acts all wise.
    look at this cute little thing, nerf evasiveness! thats why people tank. But our cutepie doesnt understand that if you nerf evasiveness then big mean meatshielidng will be the thing. Who needs to dodge when you have 70k effective HP says core necro, who needs to dodge says mister guard after fully healing for the 3rd time within 30s.
    Remove evason/invulnerabilities! those are the issues.
    If done in a stupid way like they are doing now all it will do is make bunker meta where everyone just stats RAW HP and wins through attrition, or just never dies.
    Do you think the ammount of skills that are MUST dodge got lowered? naaaah not at all, do you think it makes a difference if you lose 60% hp in 1 hit or 50%?
    in grand scheme of things it doesnt, and you have to dodge almost as much as before to survive.
    When you nerf evasion, classes that rely on it get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf burst, classes that rely on burst get hurt more then the classes that dont.
    If you nerf healing, classes that rely on healing get nerfed more then those that dont.
    If you nerf teleportation, classes that teleport get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf condition damage, classes that have kitten condi cleanses are better of then those that have good condi cleanse.
    and so on and so fourth, all you do is take a block from jenga tower and think all will be fine.

    EDIT.
    and people dont play becouse game is stale and has no diversity, has nothing to do with balance.
    you ever played dota? that kitten aint balanced, everything is broken there and people play and have fun.
    not in gw2, you have maybe 20 good builds, out of which there are maybe 6 different playstyles and thats it.
    nothing ever gets changed

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

    Awww people who still can't see past their own class. All evades/invulns have to be toned down (they are not being enough) and then all damage needs to be toned down and high damage skills should have long cast times so skilled players can dodge them.
    Like I said though, people can't see past their own classes. The game is therefore deader than dead. Balance doesn't even matter at this stage. It should be about fixing the game and making it skill based again. Reducing everything needs to happen. Evades and invulns need big nerfs to reduce their up-time. And damage needs to be toned down too, in particular on instant cast skills and auto attacks.

    Pretty obvious stuff that anet do not understand and players who cannot see past their own class cannot understand. Result of this = the game is dead. And also will not be coming back despite amazing combat mechanics that came from the original devs

    Awww people doesnt understand the very basics of balancing and acts all wise.
    look at this cute little thing, nerf evasiveness! thats why people tank. But our cutepie doesnt understand that if you nerf evasiveness then big mean meatshielidng will be the thing. Who needs to dodge when you have 70k effective HP says core necro, who needs to dodge says mister guard after fully healing for the 3rd time within 30s.
    Remove evason/invulnerabilities! those are the issues.
    If done in a stupid way like they are doing now all it will do is make bunker meta where everyone just stats RAW HP and wins through attrition, or just never dies.
    Do you think the ammount of skills that are MUST dodge got lowered? naaaah not at all, do you think it makes a difference if you lose 60% hp in 1 hit or 50%?
    in grand scheme of things it doesnt, and you have to dodge almost as much as before to survive.
    When you nerf evasion, classes that rely on it get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf burst, classes that rely on burst get hurt more then the classes that dont.
    If you nerf healing, classes that rely on healing get nerfed more then those that dont.
    If you nerf teleportation, classes that teleport get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf condition damage, classes that have kitten condi cleanses are better of then those that have good condi cleanse.
    and so on and so fourth, all you do is take a block from jenga tower and think all will be fine.

    EDIT.
    and people dont play becouse game is stale and has no diversity, has nothing to do with balance.
    you ever played dota? that kitten aint balanced, everything is broken there and people play and have fun.
    not in gw2, you have maybe 20 good builds, out of which there are maybe 6 different playstyles and thats it.
    nothing ever gets changed

    Balance is irrelevant. The problem isn't "omg this class is OP". It is stupid mecahnics and poor gameplay caused by:
    1, Too much evasion that is spammed
    2, Instant cast/spammable skills that hit too hard
    3, Too much invuln spam
    4, Too many condi spam
    5, Too much condi cleanse spam

    So the whole game is based on builds and just no-brain spamming a rotation designed to beat a particular other build. There is no reactive gameplay, it is all just spam caused by power-creep.

    Is having 30 condis applied per second and 30 condis cleared per second balanced? Yeh it is. Is it fun and engaging gameplay? Nope its not. Because it is just spam based. Cooldowns in general need to be longer so there is skill in applying conditions and cleansing conditions. Hard hitting skills need long cast times so they can be evaded. But evasion needs to be lower so it must be used at the correct time to succeed (rather than just spammed endlessly).
    Does it matter if you waste a dodge on thief? Not really, you have 100 more and you SHOULD spam evades to avoid even auto attacks because the power creep is so significant that those auto attacks hit really hard.

    Does it matter if you waste healing on ele? Not really, you have it again super fast and chances are you will take a load of damage even if you heal at 75% because of how power-creeped the damage and heals are.

    Should you time your condi spam on a condi build? Not really, cooldowns for cleanses and condi-application are too low so you just spam away and you will have your skills again soon anyway and they will have their cleanses again.

    So everything is power creeped.

    Those are the fundamental areas this game is lacking. Balance doesn't mean anything because there is no playbase anymore because people left for the above reasons.

    First they need to fix the issues with the gameplay. Only then can they move on to the fine tuning of balance. Even considering balance right now is a flawed mindset, and the fact the devs seem to be considering it rather than just reducing everything across the board, shows they lack understanding of the games issues..like you do.

    I find it honestly comical that in 2020 the gw2 playerbase (as shown by you and others) don't realise how power-creeped in EVERY DEPARTMENT this game is and how terrible it is. Maybe anet realise? Idk if they do but I would imagine their income from this game is continuing to decline because of these issues. I thought in 2020 people knew how bad power creep was for games but I guess you are an exception so congrats. Maybe you can join the dev team?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

    Awww people who still can't see past their own class. All evades/invulns have to be toned down (they are not being enough) and then all damage needs to be toned down and high damage skills should have long cast times so skilled players can dodge them.
    Like I said though, people can't see past their own classes. The game is therefore deader than dead. Balance doesn't even matter at this stage. It should be about fixing the game and making it skill based again. Reducing everything needs to happen. Evades and invulns need big nerfs to reduce their up-time. And damage needs to be toned down too, in particular on instant cast skills and auto attacks.

    Pretty obvious stuff that anet do not understand and players who cannot see past their own class cannot understand. Result of this = the game is dead. And also will not be coming back despite amazing combat mechanics that came from the original devs

    Awww people doesnt understand the very basics of balancing and acts all wise.
    look at this cute little thing, nerf evasiveness! thats why people tank. But our cutepie doesnt understand that if you nerf evasiveness then big mean meatshielidng will be the thing. Who needs to dodge when you have 70k effective HP says core necro, who needs to dodge says mister guard after fully healing for the 3rd time within 30s.
    Remove evason/invulnerabilities! those are the issues.
    If done in a stupid way like they are doing now all it will do is make bunker meta where everyone just stats RAW HP and wins through attrition, or just never dies.
    Do you think the ammount of skills that are MUST dodge got lowered? naaaah not at all, do you think it makes a difference if you lose 60% hp in 1 hit or 50%?
    in grand scheme of things it doesnt, and you have to dodge almost as much as before to survive.
    When you nerf evasion, classes that rely on it get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf burst, classes that rely on burst get hurt more then the classes that dont.
    If you nerf healing, classes that rely on healing get nerfed more then those that dont.
    If you nerf teleportation, classes that teleport get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf condition damage, classes that have kitten condi cleanses are better of then those that have good condi cleanse.
    and so on and so fourth, all you do is take a block from jenga tower and think all will be fine.

    EDIT.
    and people dont play becouse game is stale and has no diversity, has nothing to do with balance.
    you ever played dota? that kitten aint balanced, everything is broken there and people play and have fun.
    not in gw2, you have maybe 20 good builds, out of which there are maybe 6 different playstyles and thats it.
    nothing ever gets changed

    Balance is irrelevant. The problem isn't "omg this class is OP". It is stupid mecahnics and poor gameplay caused by:
    1, Too much evasion that is spammed
    2, Instant cast/spammable skills that hit too hard
    3, Too much invuln spam
    4, Too many condi spam
    5, Too much condi cleanse spam

    So the whole game is based on builds and just no-brain spamming a rotation designed to beat a particular other build. There is no reactive gameplay, it is all just spam caused by power-creep.

    Is having 30 condis applied per second and 30 condis cleared per second balanced? Yeh it is. Is it fun and engaging gameplay? Nope its not. Because it is just spam based. Cooldowns in general need to be longer so there is skill in applying conditions and cleansing conditions. Hard hitting skills need long cast times so they can be evaded. But evasion needs to be lower so it must be used at the correct time to succeed (rather than just spammed endlessly).
    Does it matter if you waste a dodge on thief? Not really, you have 100 more and you SHOULD spam evades to avoid even auto attacks because the power creep is so significant that those auto attacks hit really hard.

    Does it matter if you waste healing on ele? Not really, you have it again super fast and chances are you will take a load of damage even if you heal at 75% because of how power-creeped the damage and heals are.

    Should you time your condi spam on a condi build? Not really, cooldowns for cleanses and condi-application are too low so you just spam away and you will have your skills again soon anyway and they will have their cleanses again.

    So everything is power creeped.

    Those are the fundamental areas this game is lacking. Balance doesn't mean anything because there is no playbase anymore because people left for the above reasons.

    First they need to fix the issues with the gameplay. Only then can they move on to the fine tuning of balance. Even considering balance right now is a flawed mindset, and the fact the devs seem to be considering it rather than just reducing everything across the board, shows they lack understanding of the games issues..like you do.

    I find it honestly comical that in 2020 the gw2 playerbase (as shown by you and others) don't realise how power-creeped in EVERY DEPARTMENT this game is and how terrible it is. Maybe anet realise? Idk if they do but I would imagine their income from this game is continuing to decline because of these issues. I thought in 2020 people knew how bad power creep was for games but I guess you are an exception so congrats. Maybe you can join the dev team?

    you are using big word like powercrept but it doesnt mean jack.
    game is fast paced and thats it, people dont play becouse nothing gets changed, thats it.
    balance is goal that can never be reached, only chased.
    you are bringing slow gameplay of 2005, its 2020. wake up, nobody is going to wait 30-60s to do anything, they are going to play other games.
    fast paced games are the future, wake up old men, future is now.

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

    Awww people who still can't see past their own class. All evades/invulns have to be toned down (they are not being enough) and then all damage needs to be toned down and high damage skills should have long cast times so skilled players can dodge them.
    Like I said though, people can't see past their own classes. The game is therefore deader than dead. Balance doesn't even matter at this stage. It should be about fixing the game and making it skill based again. Reducing everything needs to happen. Evades and invulns need big nerfs to reduce their up-time. And damage needs to be toned down too, in particular on instant cast skills and auto attacks.

    Pretty obvious stuff that anet do not understand and players who cannot see past their own class cannot understand. Result of this = the game is dead. And also will not be coming back despite amazing combat mechanics that came from the original devs

    Awww people doesnt understand the very basics of balancing and acts all wise.
    look at this cute little thing, nerf evasiveness! thats why people tank. But our cutepie doesnt understand that if you nerf evasiveness then big mean meatshielidng will be the thing. Who needs to dodge when you have 70k effective HP says core necro, who needs to dodge says mister guard after fully healing for the 3rd time within 30s.
    Remove evason/invulnerabilities! those are the issues.
    If done in a stupid way like they are doing now all it will do is make bunker meta where everyone just stats RAW HP and wins through attrition, or just never dies.
    Do you think the ammount of skills that are MUST dodge got lowered? naaaah not at all, do you think it makes a difference if you lose 60% hp in 1 hit or 50%?
    in grand scheme of things it doesnt, and you have to dodge almost as much as before to survive.
    When you nerf evasion, classes that rely on it get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf burst, classes that rely on burst get hurt more then the classes that dont.
    If you nerf healing, classes that rely on healing get nerfed more then those that dont.
    If you nerf teleportation, classes that teleport get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf condition damage, classes that have kitten condi cleanses are better of then those that have good condi cleanse.
    and so on and so fourth, all you do is take a block from jenga tower and think all will be fine.

    EDIT.
    and people dont play becouse game is stale and has no diversity, has nothing to do with balance.
    you ever played dota? that kitten aint balanced, everything is broken there and people play and have fun.
    not in gw2, you have maybe 20 good builds, out of which there are maybe 6 different playstyles and thats it.
    nothing ever gets changed

    Balance is irrelevant. The problem isn't "omg this class is OP". It is stupid mecahnics and poor gameplay caused by:
    1, Too much evasion that is spammed
    2, Instant cast/spammable skills that hit too hard
    3, Too much invuln spam
    4, Too many condi spam
    5, Too much condi cleanse spam

    So the whole game is based on builds and just no-brain spamming a rotation designed to beat a particular other build. There is no reactive gameplay, it is all just spam caused by power-creep.

    Is having 30 condis applied per second and 30 condis cleared per second balanced? Yeh it is. Is it fun and engaging gameplay? Nope its not. Because it is just spam based. Cooldowns in general need to be longer so there is skill in applying conditions and cleansing conditions. Hard hitting skills need long cast times so they can be evaded. But evasion needs to be lower so it must be used at the correct time to succeed (rather than just spammed endlessly).
    Does it matter if you waste a dodge on thief? Not really, you have 100 more and you SHOULD spam evades to avoid even auto attacks because the power creep is so significant that those auto attacks hit really hard.

    Does it matter if you waste healing on ele? Not really, you have it again super fast and chances are you will take a load of damage even if you heal at 75% because of how power-creeped the damage and heals are.

    Should you time your condi spam on a condi build? Not really, cooldowns for cleanses and condi-application are too low so you just spam away and you will have your skills again soon anyway and they will have their cleanses again.

    So everything is power creeped.

    Those are the fundamental areas this game is lacking. Balance doesn't mean anything because there is no playbase anymore because people left for the above reasons.

    First they need to fix the issues with the gameplay. Only then can they move on to the fine tuning of balance. Even considering balance right now is a flawed mindset, and the fact the devs seem to be considering it rather than just reducing everything across the board, shows they lack understanding of the games issues..like you do.

    I find it honestly comical that in 2020 the gw2 playerbase (as shown by you and others) don't realise how power-creeped in EVERY DEPARTMENT this game is and how terrible it is. Maybe anet realise? Idk if they do but I would imagine their income from this game is continuing to decline because of these issues. I thought in 2020 people knew how bad power creep was for games but I guess you are an exception so congrats. Maybe you can join the dev team?

    you are using big word like powercrept but it doesnt mean jack.
    game is fast paced and thats it, people dont play becouse nothing gets changed, thats it.
    balance is goal that can never be reached, only chased.
    you are bringing slow gameplay of 2005, its 2020. wake up, nobody is going to wait 30-60s to do anything, they are going to play other games.
    fast paced games are the future, wake up old men, future is now.

    lol. As I said you should apply to anet with that logic. They would love another dev to power creep their game. Also spamming skills isn't fast paced at all. It is just spam. Fast paced gameplay is where you has to react to what the opponent does, not spam your stuff 24/7. Anyway I just came back to see if this playerbase had woken up and realised how crazy the spam/power creep was in this game. I guess not. So this game is deader than dead. Enjoy it. Maybe by 2021 you will work out what I said was true. Maybe even when GW2 closes its active development and analyses their game they will also realise how crazy the power creep is too.
    Spam wars 2. The game for people with no skill.

  • Yeah it sounds disgusting to be honest, these patch looks really fail. Nerfing big casting time CCs that you won't land in the first place anyways due to the amount of evade spam, and defensive blocks.

    Nerf damage, but don't touch evade skills like sigh. Bad logic is bad. Nerfing damage when they NEVER considered block spam and made it unrewarding to land high casting time skills like Guardian Hammer 4 or Warrior Hammer 3-4-5. What kind of people does ANET hire, like what is this logic?

  • Ithilwen.1529Ithilwen.1529 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I hope Mesmer is in for another multi-year bad patch ( like the one after the big glamour nerf.) It's hard enough to play well on Mesmer as it is.

    I'm not confident ANET will be even handed

    Mesmerizing Girl

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

    Awww people who still can't see past their own class. All evades/invulns have to be toned down (they are not being enough) and then all damage needs to be toned down and high damage skills should have long cast times so skilled players can dodge them.
    Like I said though, people can't see past their own classes. The game is therefore deader than dead. Balance doesn't even matter at this stage. It should be about fixing the game and making it skill based again. Reducing everything needs to happen. Evades and invulns need big nerfs to reduce their up-time. And damage needs to be toned down too, in particular on instant cast skills and auto attacks.

    Pretty obvious stuff that anet do not understand and players who cannot see past their own class cannot understand. Result of this = the game is dead. And also will not be coming back despite amazing combat mechanics that came from the original devs

    Awww people doesnt understand the very basics of balancing and acts all wise.
    look at this cute little thing, nerf evasiveness! thats why people tank. But our cutepie doesnt understand that if you nerf evasiveness then big mean meatshielidng will be the thing. Who needs to dodge when you have 70k effective HP says core necro, who needs to dodge says mister guard after fully healing for the 3rd time within 30s.
    Remove evason/invulnerabilities! those are the issues.
    If done in a stupid way like they are doing now all it will do is make bunker meta where everyone just stats RAW HP and wins through attrition, or just never dies.
    Do you think the ammount of skills that are MUST dodge got lowered? naaaah not at all, do you think it makes a difference if you lose 60% hp in 1 hit or 50%?
    in grand scheme of things it doesnt, and you have to dodge almost as much as before to survive.
    When you nerf evasion, classes that rely on it get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf burst, classes that rely on burst get hurt more then the classes that dont.
    If you nerf healing, classes that rely on healing get nerfed more then those that dont.
    If you nerf teleportation, classes that teleport get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf condition damage, classes that have kitten condi cleanses are better of then those that have good condi cleanse.
    and so on and so fourth, all you do is take a block from jenga tower and think all will be fine.

    EDIT.
    and people dont play becouse game is stale and has no diversity, has nothing to do with balance.
    you ever played dota? that kitten aint balanced, everything is broken there and people play and have fun.
    not in gw2, you have maybe 20 good builds, out of which there are maybe 6 different playstyles and thats it.
    nothing ever gets changed

    Balance is irrelevant. The problem isn't "omg this class is OP". It is stupid mecahnics and poor gameplay caused by:
    1, Too much evasion that is spammed
    2, Instant cast/spammable skills that hit too hard
    3, Too much invuln spam
    4, Too many condi spam
    5, Too much condi cleanse spam

    So the whole game is based on builds and just no-brain spamming a rotation designed to beat a particular other build. There is no reactive gameplay, it is all just spam caused by power-creep.

    Is having 30 condis applied per second and 30 condis cleared per second balanced? Yeh it is. Is it fun and engaging gameplay? Nope its not. Because it is just spam based. Cooldowns in general need to be longer so there is skill in applying conditions and cleansing conditions. Hard hitting skills need long cast times so they can be evaded. But evasion needs to be lower so it must be used at the correct time to succeed (rather than just spammed endlessly).
    Does it matter if you waste a dodge on thief? Not really, you have 100 more and you SHOULD spam evades to avoid even auto attacks because the power creep is so significant that those auto attacks hit really hard.

    Does it matter if you waste healing on ele? Not really, you have it again super fast and chances are you will take a load of damage even if you heal at 75% because of how power-creeped the damage and heals are.

    Should you time your condi spam on a condi build? Not really, cooldowns for cleanses and condi-application are too low so you just spam away and you will have your skills again soon anyway and they will have their cleanses again.

    So everything is power creeped.

    Those are the fundamental areas this game is lacking. Balance doesn't mean anything because there is no playbase anymore because people left for the above reasons.

    First they need to fix the issues with the gameplay. Only then can they move on to the fine tuning of balance. Even considering balance right now is a flawed mindset, and the fact the devs seem to be considering it rather than just reducing everything across the board, shows they lack understanding of the games issues..like you do.

    I find it honestly comical that in 2020 the gw2 playerbase (as shown by you and others) don't realise how power-creeped in EVERY DEPARTMENT this game is and how terrible it is. Maybe anet realise? Idk if they do but I would imagine their income from this game is continuing to decline because of these issues. I thought in 2020 people knew how bad power creep was for games but I guess you are an exception so congrats. Maybe you can join the dev team?

    you are using big word like powercrept but it doesnt mean jack.
    game is fast paced and thats it, people dont play becouse nothing gets changed, thats it.
    balance is goal that can never be reached, only chased.
    you are bringing slow gameplay of 2005, its 2020. wake up, nobody is going to wait 30-60s to do anything, they are going to play other games.
    fast paced games are the future, wake up old men, future is now.

    lol. As I said you should apply to anet with that logic. They would love another dev to power creep their game. Also spamming skills isn't fast paced at all. It is just spam. Fast paced gameplay is where you has to react to what the opponent does, not spam your stuff 24/7. Anyway I just came back to see if this playerbase had woken up and realised how crazy the spam/power creep was in this game. I guess not. So this game is deader than dead. Enjoy it. Maybe by 2021 you will work out what I said was true. Maybe even when GW2 closes its active development and analyses their game they will also realise how crazy the power creep is too.
    Spam wars 2. The game for people with no skill.

    you said power creep 3 times in that short message, you sure you dont have a stroke ?

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tunococman.7324 said:
    Yeah it sounds disgusting to be honest, these patch looks really fail. Nerfing big casting time CCs that you won't land in the first place anyways due to the amount of evade spam, and defensive blocks.

    Nerf damage, but don't touch evade skills like sigh. Bad logic is bad. Nerfing damage when they NEVER considered block spam and made it unrewarding to land high casting time skills like Guardian Hammer 4 or Warrior Hammer 3-4-5. What kind of people does ANET hire, like what is this logic?

    From what I've seen they're nerfing evades and blocking as well. Have you read the notes?

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    can you guys keep sigil of agility but remove the quickness? some builds struggle with swiftness.

    edit
    hey maybe just switch the quickness to fury

    Te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Rickster.8752Rickster.8752 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

    Awww people who still can't see past their own class. All evades/invulns have to be toned down (they are not being enough) and then all damage needs to be toned down and high damage skills should have long cast times so skilled players can dodge them.
    Like I said though, people can't see past their own classes. The game is therefore deader than dead. Balance doesn't even matter at this stage. It should be about fixing the game and making it skill based again. Reducing everything needs to happen. Evades and invulns need big nerfs to reduce their up-time. And damage needs to be toned down too, in particular on instant cast skills and auto attacks.

    Pretty obvious stuff that anet do not understand and players who cannot see past their own class cannot understand. Result of this = the game is dead. And also will not be coming back despite amazing combat mechanics that came from the original devs

    Awww people doesnt understand the very basics of balancing and acts all wise.
    look at this cute little thing, nerf evasiveness! thats why people tank. But our cutepie doesnt understand that if you nerf evasiveness then big mean meatshielidng will be the thing. Who needs to dodge when you have 70k effective HP says core necro, who needs to dodge says mister guard after fully healing for the 3rd time within 30s.
    Remove evason/invulnerabilities! those are the issues.
    If done in a stupid way like they are doing now all it will do is make bunker meta where everyone just stats RAW HP and wins through attrition, or just never dies.
    Do you think the ammount of skills that are MUST dodge got lowered? naaaah not at all, do you think it makes a difference if you lose 60% hp in 1 hit or 50%?
    in grand scheme of things it doesnt, and you have to dodge almost as much as before to survive.
    When you nerf evasion, classes that rely on it get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf burst, classes that rely on burst get hurt more then the classes that dont.
    If you nerf healing, classes that rely on healing get nerfed more then those that dont.
    If you nerf teleportation, classes that teleport get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf condition damage, classes that have kitten condi cleanses are better of then those that have good condi cleanse.
    and so on and so fourth, all you do is take a block from jenga tower and think all will be fine.

    EDIT.
    and people dont play becouse game is stale and has no diversity, has nothing to do with balance.
    you ever played dota? that kitten aint balanced, everything is broken there and people play and have fun.
    not in gw2, you have maybe 20 good builds, out of which there are maybe 6 different playstyles and thats it.
    nothing ever gets changed

    Balance is irrelevant. The problem isn't "omg this class is OP". It is stupid mecahnics and poor gameplay caused by:
    1, Too much evasion that is spammed
    2, Instant cast/spammable skills that hit too hard
    3, Too much invuln spam
    4, Too many condi spam
    5, Too much condi cleanse spam

    So the whole game is based on builds and just no-brain spamming a rotation designed to beat a particular other build. There is no reactive gameplay, it is all just spam caused by power-creep.

    Is having 30 condis applied per second and 30 condis cleared per second balanced? Yeh it is. Is it fun and engaging gameplay? Nope its not. Because it is just spam based. Cooldowns in general need to be longer so there is skill in applying conditions and cleansing conditions. Hard hitting skills need long cast times so they can be evaded. But evasion needs to be lower so it must be used at the correct time to succeed (rather than just spammed endlessly).
    Does it matter if you waste a dodge on thief? Not really, you have 100 more and you SHOULD spam evades to avoid even auto attacks because the power creep is so significant that those auto attacks hit really hard.

    Does it matter if you waste healing on ele? Not really, you have it again super fast and chances are you will take a load of damage even if you heal at 75% because of how power-creeped the damage and heals are.

    Should you time your condi spam on a condi build? Not really, cooldowns for cleanses and condi-application are too low so you just spam away and you will have your skills again soon anyway and they will have their cleanses again.

    So everything is power creeped.

    Those are the fundamental areas this game is lacking. Balance doesn't mean anything because there is no playbase anymore because people left for the above reasons.

    First they need to fix the issues with the gameplay. Only then can they move on to the fine tuning of balance. Even considering balance right now is a flawed mindset, and the fact the devs seem to be considering it rather than just reducing everything across the board, shows they lack understanding of the games issues..like you do.

    I find it honestly comical that in 2020 the gw2 playerbase (as shown by you and others) don't realise how power-creeped in EVERY DEPARTMENT this game is and how terrible it is. Maybe anet realise? Idk if they do but I would imagine their income from this game is continuing to decline because of these issues. I thought in 2020 people knew how bad power creep was for games but I guess you are an exception so congrats. Maybe you can join the dev team?

    you are using big word like powercrept but it doesnt mean jack.
    game is fast paced and thats it, people dont play becouse nothing gets changed, thats it.
    balance is goal that can never be reached, only chased.
    you are bringing slow gameplay of 2005, its 2020. wake up, nobody is going to wait 30-60s to do anything, they are going to play other games.
    fast paced games are the future, wake up old men, future is now.

    lol. As I said you should apply to anet with that logic. They would love another dev to power creep their game. Also spamming skills isn't fast paced at all. It is just spam. Fast paced gameplay is where you has to react to what the opponent does, not spam your stuff 24/7. Anyway I just came back to see if this playerbase had woken up and realised how crazy the spam/power creep was in this game. I guess not. So this game is deader than dead. Enjoy it. Maybe by 2021 you will work out what I said was true. Maybe even when GW2 closes its active development and analyses their game they will also realise how crazy the power creep is too.
    Spam wars 2. The game for people with no skill.

    you said power creep 3 times in that short message, you sure you dont have a stroke ?

    Cos the game is power creeped.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Rickster.8752 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

    Exactly correct. They need to hit defensive weapon abilities such as Flanking Strike which should probably cost 6 or 7 initiative instead of 4 iniative. They need to go over all the defensive weapon skills and do this. Same for something like blurred frenzy whose cooldown should be doubled. Basically any weapon skill that evades/provides immunity needs to have its cooldown doubled, or its duration halved or its cost (for thief) doubled.
    If they ever manage to do this, then this game will be good again. I hope this is the next step but I am doubtful

    If by good you mean warrior with an axe holds W key and mouse 1 and runs over thiefs and mesmer then sure. It would be good.

    Awww people who still can't see past their own class. All evades/invulns have to be toned down (they are not being enough) and then all damage needs to be toned down and high damage skills should have long cast times so skilled players can dodge them.
    Like I said though, people can't see past their own classes. The game is therefore deader than dead. Balance doesn't even matter at this stage. It should be about fixing the game and making it skill based again. Reducing everything needs to happen. Evades and invulns need big nerfs to reduce their up-time. And damage needs to be toned down too, in particular on instant cast skills and auto attacks.

    Pretty obvious stuff that anet do not understand and players who cannot see past their own class cannot understand. Result of this = the game is dead. And also will not be coming back despite amazing combat mechanics that came from the original devs

    Awww people doesnt understand the very basics of balancing and acts all wise.
    look at this cute little thing, nerf evasiveness! thats why people tank. But our cutepie doesnt understand that if you nerf evasiveness then big mean meatshielidng will be the thing. Who needs to dodge when you have 70k effective HP says core necro, who needs to dodge says mister guard after fully healing for the 3rd time within 30s.
    Remove evason/invulnerabilities! those are the issues.
    If done in a stupid way like they are doing now all it will do is make bunker meta where everyone just stats RAW HP and wins through attrition, or just never dies.
    Do you think the ammount of skills that are MUST dodge got lowered? naaaah not at all, do you think it makes a difference if you lose 60% hp in 1 hit or 50%?
    in grand scheme of things it doesnt, and you have to dodge almost as much as before to survive.
    When you nerf evasion, classes that rely on it get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf burst, classes that rely on burst get hurt more then the classes that dont.
    If you nerf healing, classes that rely on healing get nerfed more then those that dont.
    If you nerf teleportation, classes that teleport get hurt more then those that dont.
    If you nerf condition damage, classes that have kitten condi cleanses are better of then those that have good condi cleanse.
    and so on and so fourth, all you do is take a block from jenga tower and think all will be fine.

    EDIT.
    and people dont play becouse game is stale and has no diversity, has nothing to do with balance.
    you ever played dota? that kitten aint balanced, everything is broken there and people play and have fun.
    not in gw2, you have maybe 20 good builds, out of which there are maybe 6 different playstyles and thats it.
    nothing ever gets changed

    Balance is irrelevant. The problem isn't "omg this class is OP". It is stupid mecahnics and poor gameplay caused by:
    1, Too much evasion that is spammed
    2, Instant cast/spammable skills that hit too hard
    3, Too much invuln spam
    4, Too many condi spam
    5, Too much condi cleanse spam

    So the whole game is based on builds and just no-brain spamming a rotation designed to beat a particular other build. There is no reactive gameplay, it is all just spam caused by power-creep.

    Is having 30 condis applied per second and 30 condis cleared per second balanced? Yeh it is. Is it fun and engaging gameplay? Nope its not. Because it is just spam based. Cooldowns in general need to be longer so there is skill in applying conditions and cleansing conditions. Hard hitting skills need long cast times so they can be evaded. But evasion needs to be lower so it must be used at the correct time to succeed (rather than just spammed endlessly).
    Does it matter if you waste a dodge on thief? Not really, you have 100 more and you SHOULD spam evades to avoid even auto attacks because the power creep is so significant that those auto attacks hit really hard.

    Does it matter if you waste healing on ele? Not really, you have it again super fast and chances are you will take a load of damage even if you heal at 75% because of how power-creeped the damage and heals are.

    Should you time your condi spam on a condi build? Not really, cooldowns for cleanses and condi-application are too low so you just spam away and you will have your skills again soon anyway and they will have their cleanses again.

    So everything is power creeped.

    Those are the fundamental areas this game is lacking. Balance doesn't mean anything because there is no playbase anymore because people left for the above reasons.

    First they need to fix the issues with the gameplay. Only then can they move on to the fine tuning of balance. Even considering balance right now is a flawed mindset, and the fact the devs seem to be considering it rather than just reducing everything across the board, shows they lack understanding of the games issues..like you do.

    I find it honestly comical that in 2020 the gw2 playerbase (as shown by you and others) don't realise how power-creeped in EVERY DEPARTMENT this game is and how terrible it is. Maybe anet realise? Idk if they do but I would imagine their income from this game is continuing to decline because of these issues. I thought in 2020 people knew how bad power creep was for games but I guess you are an exception so congrats. Maybe you can join the dev team?

    you are using big word like powercrept but it doesnt mean jack.
    game is fast paced and thats it, people dont play becouse nothing gets changed, thats it.
    balance is goal that can never be reached, only chased.
    you are bringing slow gameplay of 2005, its 2020. wake up, nobody is going to wait 30-60s to do anything, they are going to play other games.
    fast paced games are the future, wake up old men, future is now.

    lol. As I said you should apply to anet with that logic. They would love another dev to power creep their game. Also spamming skills isn't fast paced at all. It is just spam. Fast paced gameplay is where you has to react to what the opponent does, not spam your stuff 24/7. Anyway I just came back to see if this playerbase had woken up and realised how crazy the spam/power creep was in this game. I guess not. So this game is deader than dead. Enjoy it. Maybe by 2021 you will work out what I said was true. Maybe even when GW2 closes its active development and analyses their game they will also realise how crazy the power creep is too.
    Spam wars 2. The game for people with no skill.

    you said power creep 3 times in that short message, you sure you dont have a stroke ?

    Cos the game is power creeped.

    this word means NOTHING in balancing, if you had any exp in gaming you would know that.
    all power creep does is pushes out whats old, in this scenarion core specs.
    it has nothing to do with overall balance and nothing to do with overall playrates or fun of the game

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this word means NOTHING in balancing, [...]
    it has nothing to do with overall balance and nothing to do with overall playrates or fun of the game

    SO you had fun when Mirage could melt you in 10 seconds because they had the ability to vomit too many damaging conditions on you in few seconds and prevent you from acting in any way?
    Because I certainly didn't.
    And that's just one example of how powercreep affected both balance and fun.

  • ruwani.8624ruwani.8624 Member ✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    If you make those changes to druids after having continuously nerfed us, I will simply delete my account. :)

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ruwani.8624 said:
    If you make those changes to druids after having continuously nerfed us, I will simply delete my account. :)

    Send me your gold and stuff before that plox

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this word means NOTHING in balancing, [...]
    it has nothing to do with overall balance and nothing to do with overall playrates or fun of the game

    SO you had fun when Mirage could melt you in 10 seconds because they had the ability to vomit too many damaging conditions on you in few seconds and prevent you from acting in any way?
    Because I certainly didn't.
    And that's just one example of how powercreep affected both balance and fun.

    I never had a SINGLE instance when condi mirage killed me withing 30s of the fight and not have it be ME making BIG mistakes

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this word means NOTHING in balancing, [...]
    it has nothing to do with overall balance and nothing to do with overall playrates or fun of the game

    SO you had fun when Mirage could melt you in 10 seconds because they had the ability to vomit too many damaging conditions on you in few seconds and prevent you from acting in any way?
    Because I certainly didn't.
    And that's just one example of how powercreep affected both balance and fun.

    I never had a SINGLE instance when condi mirage killed me withing 30s of the fight and not have it be ME making BIG mistakes

    May be he is referring to time when anet made a fatal mistake of removing confusion shatter from each shatter and packed into 1.Before mirage release or something? So bumping someone with 3 clone axe3 into f2 and them spamming skills would kill them right away, that happened. And even then mirage wasnt the most cancerous, holo ran weaponless and still rolled over mirage (kitten Zan and mines) and the list goes on.
    I dont know what about you are arguing there but PoF ruined the game, not even HoT did that much damage to the game. Pepehands

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this word means NOTHING in balancing, [...]
    it has nothing to do with overall balance and nothing to do with overall playrates or fun of the game

    SO you had fun when Mirage could melt you in 10 seconds because they had the ability to vomit too many damaging conditions on you in few seconds and prevent you from acting in any way?
    Because I certainly didn't.
    And that's just one example of how powercreep affected both balance and fun.

    I never had a SINGLE instance when condi mirage killed me withing 30s of the fight and not have it be ME making BIG mistakes

    May be he is referring to time when anet made a fatal mistake of removing confusion shatter from each shatter and packed into 1.Before mirage release or something? So bumping someone with 3 clone axe3 into f2 and them spamming skills would kill them right away, that happened. And even then mirage wasnt the most cancerous, holo ran weaponless and still rolled over mirage (kitten Zan and mines) and the list goes on.

    well spamming with 30stacks of confusion is considered BIG mistake in my book.
    and even then axe 3->F2 is SUPER easy to avoid anyways. so its triple mistake.
    1 for getting hit.
    2 for not cleasing
    and 3 for spamming

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this word means NOTHING in balancing, [...]
    it has nothing to do with overall balance and nothing to do with overall playrates or fun of the game

    SO you had fun when Mirage could melt you in 10 seconds because they had the ability to vomit too many damaging conditions on you in few seconds and prevent you from acting in any way?
    Because I certainly didn't.
    And that's just one example of how powercreep affected both balance and fun.

    I never had a SINGLE instance when condi mirage killed me withing 30s of the fight and not have it be ME making BIG mistakes

    May be he is referring to time when anet made a fatal mistake of removing confusion shatter from each shatter and packed into 1.Before mirage release or something? So bumping someone with 3 clone axe3 into f2 and them spamming skills would kill them right away, that happened. And even then mirage wasnt the most cancerous, holo ran weaponless and still rolled over mirage (kitten Zan and mines) and the list goes on.

    well spamming with 30stacks of confusion is considered BIG mistake in my book.
    and even then axe 3->F2 is SUPER easy to avoid anyways. so its triple mistake.
    1 for getting hit.
    2 for not cleasing
    and 3 for spamming

    Not everyone is a big brain to stop using skills and some skills triggered confusion multiple times. Its not their or mirage fault, its anet and their decision making, we warned them that is a big mistake to do, never listened. And as I said, its not only mirage was that powerful, all classes. (HoT excluded and renegod)
    And other major powercreep BS to sell more copies that hurt them in a long run and end up losing their own playerbase. They didnt realize these who want to play would buy it, more diversity? They would buy to try it out anyway.

  • Profession combat skills arent meant to be perfectly balanced across all classes, but "the meta skill balance" is more about the skill balance helping to drive interesting combat encounters that have many different variables in play. A perfect balance would be boring, and prolly also lead to alot of fights ending in another boring "draw".

    While all these nerfs can be negatively summed up as "Everything you do in Tyria.. now means even less than before". That is not a good thing we all agree, but I guess we will have to wait and see how it actually works in practice, before drawing such a conclusion. I just hope we dont end up with a "mass exodus" scenario, because theres always a certain percentage of the playerbase that never returns.

    I also hope these upcoming changes are done with great care, & with a multitude of devs agreeing with it, & that it (surprisingly) turns out as fun. "Fun" is the keyword here, and if its not more fun, then we prolly are better off with keeping the "un-balance" roughly where it is.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kmfart.7480 said:
    Profession combat skills arent meant to be perfectly balanced across all classes, but "the meta skill balance" is more about the skill balance helping to drive interesting combat encounters that have many different variables in play. A perfect balance would be boring, and prolly also lead to alot of fights ending in another boring "draw".

    While all these nerfs can be negatively summed up as "Everything you do in Tyria.. now means even less than before". That is not a good thing we all agree, but I guess we will have to wait and see how it actually works in practice, before drawing such a conclusion. I just hope we dont end up with a "mass exodus" scenario, because theres always a certain percentage of the playerbase that never returns.

    I also hope these upcoming changes are done with great care, & with a multitude of devs agreeing with it, & that it (surprisingly) turns out as fun. "Fun" is the keyword here, and if its not more fun, then we prolly are better off with keeping the "un-balance" roughly where it is.

    PvP is stale, change is good.
    I think there is alot of things that are overnerfed, and alot of things that are not nerfed that should be.
    but at the very least there is going to be something new.
    If I was warrior main I would be looking forward to playing with hammer and rifle, they propably wont be any good but its something new to try.
    20might signet looks interesting too. Hopefully we wont end up with same meta or bunker meta, and if we do lets hope devs will be fast to act.

  • What about balance for PVE content like faster casting? some skills takes 3-4 seconds to cast until there you are already dead, lower cooldown(specially for guardian their CDS are RIDICULOUS LONG). HELL NO! huh xD. They think about PVP but everything they do about PVE is kitten NERFS. thumbs down

    '' Hey Moxxi you should be bright orange, because this body... is LEGENDARY!''. (Borderlands 2 Drunk)

  • Terc.5736Terc.5736 Member ✭✭✭

    Guess they haven't lost enough money recently!

  • As a avid WvW player who quit during early core days and recently returned, I am fully on board with the sentiments of the patch which I think is summed up best by: "Counterplay is important".

    Back when the game first started, group fights often were prolonged and with normalized gear, even toons that were leveling in PVE specs could hold their own and contribute. I loved the fact that you could play the game in however you wanted and it was more about skill than gear. Well timed dodges allowed me to grind out 1v1 wins as an engineer running medikit and flamethrower in janky leveling gear XD That would be unheard of now in current meta.

    Design evolves and things are tuned to the expansions as a baseline (lvl80 w/exotics before jumping in), which is fine, but the fact that there even is a significant meta is antithetical to the core philosophy of the game: playing how you want. Power creep has been insane where the gear may be within 5%, but survivability is practically nil regardless., so everyone runs full burst dps gear or full tank gear and zerg around trying to boon-bomb each other.

    So, I'm very happy about the new paradigm hopefully returning to feel of the old days, where a noob is not an auto-lose against a better geared player (and a 2v1 should be in the favor of a pair of noobs). The pro should have to put in some effort and get the win after two rounds of a perfect dps rotation instead of just half of one, which would balance the satisfaction of good play by the pro being rewarded vs. noob feeling like they have a chance in every fight if they only played a bit better. It's a fine line, but if done right, it should revitalize pvp. (Especially now that the "next" big pvp mmo "New World" decided to no longer do open world pvp anymore, GW2 is the closest option to that scale of pvp)

  • Seriously, kitten is this balance? We' see, but its total nerfing of good balanced builds... Just nerf the OP meta BS ones and its good as is... After nearly 8 years I may quit.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RoyalPredator.9163 said:
    Seriously, kitten is this balance?

    It's changes for the sake of changing things.
    It's what always has been done in GW2.
    They most likely didn't even try to balance things.

  • Off-topic but that main picture is legit art. So traditional, face to face action, but it just works.

  • get rid of the might stacks from mantra of pain... a power mes with full might and full vuln is a huge buff to the skill. you're making it 100% more broke.

    Te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~