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Balance Patch Preview - PvP

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  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Elementalist

    Traits

    Air Magic

    • Lightning Rod: Reduced weakness duration from 4 seconds to 3 seconds

    Please @Cal Cohen.2358 keep an eye on the multiplier of this trait, because IMHO it needs the same shave served to thief Pulmonary Impact (from Impacting Disruption)

  • I absolutely love this direction you're taking the game! We needed to get less of everything and this does that very well! Good job guys!

  • Pies.7462Pies.7462 Member ✭✭

    Speaking from a Plat 3 to Gold 3 PvP player's experience who has over 1,200 hours playing Condi-only Necro, primarily as a Corruption Necro, these corruption changes are pretty ghastly. Granted, it's hard to see it's total context without having played matches in this upcoming meta, but the issue for Condi necro already is the insane condi-cleanse (primarily through blast finishers and select utility spells on classes) and boon application rates (which seems generally untouched, as duration nerfs actually harm this build slightly, plus unreliability of what boon your corruption chooses) means that this is an across the board knee-cap to this sort of playstyle.

    Reducing your boon corruption efficiency by ~50%, when your primary DPS ends up coming from Terror you inflict by flipping Stability (now going from a 5 out of ~14 chance in an average teamfight, to a 5 out of 28 chance). Seeing as this is the core of the build (as you can apply Chill, and if going reaper, bleeds, as well as banking on the additional damage they receive while feared) and how wonky Fear has been since the beginning of the game (since it can be cleansed both by AoE condi clears, as well as stun breaks) it's a bit distressing to see none of the durations for Fear go up (similar to other CC's) in compensation for the drastic reduction of a chance to land the crux of the build. Additionally, due to the low duration and need for re-application (plus often 1/2 to 1s cast times to apply a ~2s duration) it's often at the first condi cleansed by things like Diamond Skin and Engi blast finishers. Coupling this with now the increased CD's of Corrupt Boon (already unnecessary imo, as you're sacrificing a valuable defensive utility slot in an already slow-paced, DPS build) seems unnecessary for an already fringe build.

    Reducing boon corruption for power-based weapons like Axe (and the corresponding shroud-based talent) makes sense, but there are already so many anti-synergies in the Necro talent tree / weapon spec's that to nerf the only true weapon synergy you have (Scep/Dag) seems misplaced. At the very least, shifting the corruption back to Dagger 5 as it's a slow moving, long cast, telegraphed move, or replacing some of the random Precision in Curses with corruption proc's would make more sense. I could write a whole 10 page essay on the breakdown of all the options Corruption Necro's have, but the TL;DR is that it's already the weaker option for Necro overall (if a bit of a safer pick), and that crippling it's key mechanic will most likely gut the viability at higher levels to deal with high skill cap Engi's/Elementalists/Revs/Guards, as blast finishers (as far as the patch notes go) are not being nerfed either.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    In case anybody is mistaking something,

    1) They can't rework as easily so they just change passive cooldowns to 300 seconds.
    2) There is no "base damage", a skill's "base damage" is calculated using 1000 base power of a level 80 character. On the contrary, heal skills have a "base heal" since a level 80 character has 0 base healing power. So if a hammer skill has a power coefficient of 0.01 and 1000 base power, that skill should do (1048 * 1000 * 0.01) / (920 + 1000) = 5 damage on a light armored opponent without any toughness stat except for the baseline (1000).

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I get the power creep was an issue, but it doesn't seem like this will effect build diversity at all. Unless as others have mentioned it's going to be all about conditions now. Definitely some positives in here in terms of traits that didn't need high damage getting their damage coefficients reduce drastically, like Holo Shockwave.

  • @Nebilim.5127 said:
    Why was stealth largely untouched?

    Because it's hardly an issue in conquest.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    power damage -33%, heals -33%
    CCs do no damage, stability uptime dramatically reduced, stunbreak cooldowns increased
    passive defensive procs deleted
    boon uptimes reduced, boon corrupts reduced

    all this great

    However, condi changes aren't quite as clear. I'm not sure condi is getting cut as much as power. burst condi especially. The only blanket change I see is that it's much harder to increase the condition duration stat.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh also, while CC doing no damage as a general rule is cool---great, even---I'm not sold on cutting all of the damage from every single one of them. Like ones with really big tells that do nothing else, like engineer's big ol bomb. It seems wrong for it to not do any damage.

    It's a minor complaint, though. I am interested to see how this goes.

  • I absolutely love the overall direction of these changes. I am super excited for this.

  • Abraxxus.8971Abraxxus.8971 Member ✭✭✭

    All these changes look good on paper, and maybe they will work as intended once launched, but PvP will still be a disaster due to low population, bots, afk'ers and leavers. I hope the devs are planning on cracking down on the bots at least.

    Bring back Ceara

  • Heika.5403Heika.5403 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    I think that is the trade off, they can dodge while CCed but they only have one dodge bar. It sounds a lot like something that would be in Guild Wars 1. This patch is awesome.

    Except that this is way too harsh of a trade off, most trades off aren't as bad as this one. I don't think we're going to see any mirage anymore if this goes through, which is sad because id rather face a mirage than it being replaced by the one shot core mesmer or the condi core bunker mesmer, but it seems like we're heading in that direction

    A few things to keep in mind:

    GS had it's damage reduced. They likely won't be able to one shot you unless you've either taken prior damage or face tanked a GS4 without dodging the followup burst.
    Still unhealthy design imo, but it should be less frustrating to play against.

    Mirage losing it's dodge hurts, but given that the overall power level of the game is going down, Mirage may not be pressured into dodging defensively as often as before. Considering the dodge can be used while stuned, their dodges have more value. Stunbreaks and stability got nerfed across the board, so Mirage's dodge starts to look a lot better by comparison. We'll have to wait and see how the meta shapes up. It's difficult to make predictions given the sheer scope of the changes.

    For some reason the Elusive Mind change aren't in PvP/WvW notes, but Global version have a referece to PvP and WvW:

    "Elusive Mind: This trait no longer stunbreaks or inflicts exhaustion. Increased the number of conditions cleansed from 1 to 3 in PvE, and to 2 in PvP and WvW."

    So maybe the stunbreak is lost making that trait useless as a grandmaster. Also adding that to the single dodge make the Mirage undesirable to play. And less fun too, like they did with Chronomancer. Dodge is one of the basic mechanics that makes the gw2 desirable to play and unique against other games. Limiting Mirage to a single dodge is too much. There should other ways of balance Mirage Cloak instead of make the specialization undesirable to play and clunky, maybe changing the ambushes or looking in to the IH. When you dodge, you are timing it in the right moment. When you blink, etc. You do the same. As you are almost all time in movement, the use of mirrors in pvp can't replace the lose of a dodge, usually you can't reach them in the right moment and even distracting you of what you should be focusing. Now mesmer will have its two specializations erased from competitive modes as no one will play them. And it'll be even rare find a core mesmer as there is nothing that reward play a core mesmer with the upcoming changes against other professions and specializations. About all with the "improved" chaos skills and traits of this balance patch plus the previous patches. It is a clear example of how not to contribute to having a greater diversity in which to choose to play.

    Anyways people will play what end dominating as usual. That will not change with this balance patch.

    Another thing that i watch too is that, for the reason of tune all down, now a lot of traits are absolutely irrelevant and don't worth even consider use them. Perhaps is what it should be and rely only on the skills in competitive mode. But that could produce another problem. If the traits and skills from PvE and PvP/WvW starts to be different as it seems in several of them, then that could end with players making mistakes due to that when playing, as you must remember the effect of the version you are playing in each game mode. And many times, by the habit of playing more than one game mode you could end up making mistakes and losing the combat. Its strange because some of the traits that were not included in this PvP notes are in the Global version and mention PvP/WvW cooldowns, etc, in their changes. Not sure if those trait changes were missed here or if finally we are going to have different behavior and features between game modes.

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Hi, @Cal Cohen.2358

    While reading this preview, i actually felt pretty excited of what is about to become of Gw2 even if my main, Weaver seems to be getting hit pretty hard; but i guess i wont know for sure until the patch comes out. that being said, from just these notes there are 2 professions which i don't believe are getting hit enough to be placed on the same playing field as others and might continue the old play style of spamming their way to victory; dps Firebrand and the BigHitter3ButtonKO class Rev. Please take another look into them before releasing the patch. Thanks :)

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • Acelidon.1358Acelidon.1358 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    The increased CD to rangers Swoop (both gs3 and soulbeast merge)..why? This is mainly a mobility/kiting skill which has nothing to do with the powercreep you're trying to address here. This reduces counterplay which contradicts what the post says about trying to improve counterplay. Also I don't see any other classes mobility skills getting increased CDs like warriors Rush or guards teleports or thieves shortbow 5/teleports.. this change seems pretty counterintuitive

  • This is a totally crazy way to "balance" a game who started 7 years ago.
    We play gw2 because we like it, despite this balance is "not perfect". Yes the power chars, builds are too strong, but we play, simple way to fix this problem is rework "Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)" and remove amulets like viper, if u dont want too high condi and power dmg together
    If u do this change what u write this game will basically change, all class nerf, condition chars get 0 power dmg, builds change, result is have to change max hp, and hp bonuses, toughness, heal power, skill CD, condition cleanse, etc.
    I dont want play a new game, and I think Im not alone.
    Your new ideas try in GW3, or give me back my money.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Fulmine.7186 said:
    result is have to change max hp, and hp bonuses, toughness, heal power, skill CD, condition cleanse, etc.

    And why exactly do you think that?

    The end goal of this patch is to reduce power creep.
    If they were to decrease HP or nerf cleanse afterwards, they'd introduce more power creep, which contradicts the goal of this balance.
    Non-bunker builds are dying too fast and that's a fact. This balance is trying to fix that.

  • I play several classes so, I'm not too partial to one class or another and, I REALLY did hate getting CC'd to death every match. That said, making coefficients on CC skills so COMICALLY low so that they are essentially neutered, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Right now with a Full Glass War, I'm getting double digit CRITS with my Rampage skills. What's the point of using a skill that stuns and does nothing else? In a 1v1, you're just prolonging the fight, you're not making any progress. If your team is all focusing the same guy, great but if not, it's pointless. I hope you know what you're doing. Cause, it seems like we're all in for condi DP Thiefs for ever and ever.

  • Zraurum.8493Zraurum.8493 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    RiP condi classes
    Mirage - 1 evade =>The bottom is broken
    Give a free reroll scroll, the class is not playable already

    I communicate through a translator

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    DH is gonna be in a real good Spot after that :)

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acelidon.1358 said:
    The increased CD to rangers Swoop (both gs3 and soulbeast merge)..why? This is mainly a mobility/kiting skill which has nothing to do with the powercreep you're trying to address here. This reduces counterplay which contradicts what the post says about trying to improve counterplay. Also I don't see any other classes mobility skills getting increased CDs like warriors Rush or guards teleports or thieves shortbow 5/teleports.. this change seems pretty counterintuitive

    Because both of those skills, on a 1500 range class (when using Longbow obviously), allowed Soulbeast to disengage very far away and that had little counterplay when they could just either reset the fight or just nope away entirely. They were especially problematic when they were used together which allowed for 2200 units of movement.

    Rush is on a 20 second CD, 16 seconds when traited, and even if it is paired with Bull's Charge that is still less distance traveled than double Swoop and on a longer cooldown. As opposed to Swoop (Greatsword) being a 12 second CD, 9 1/2 seconds when traited, and Swoop (Beast Mode) being a 12 second CD. If anything it brings them in line.

    As for shortbow, that is tied behind a resource mechanic. Without Trickery a Thief has 12 Initiative, which means Shortbow 5 can be used twice before they are out of initiative, or with Trickery it can be used about 2 and a half times. It leaves about 3 initiative left after its used twice in that scenario.

    Guards teleports are all also either on longer cooldowns (Judge's Intervention and Merciful Intervention) or much shorter distances (Sword 2) and all require targets as opposed to the Swoop skills.

    Again...if anything it brings them more in line. They were excessive.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    I'm okay with all the mesmer nerfs, however the change to mirage cloak is gonna take all the fun out of the class for me. I don't enjoy base mes or chronomancer anymore. Cloak was really cool and so much fun. Too strong I guess. But I wish they thought of another solution to keep it interesting and just as fun/cool.

    People are massively over-estimating the impact of this change.

    Baseline endurance recovers 5 per second. That means with no sigils, runes, vigor, food, traits, etc etc you recover 1 dodge every 10 seconds.

    Over a 100 second engagement:

    Pre-patch: Mirage can dodge 12 times (2 initial + 10 recovered)
    Post-patch: Mirage can dodge 11 times (1 initial + 10 recovered)

    Again, that's not considering any other sources than base endurance recovery. When you factor in other sources of endurance recovery and mirage-mirror generation, the difference becomes even smaller.

    It's not a nerf to endurance recovery. It just means you have 1 less "pre-loaded" up-front. It is not a "50% nerf".

    Sure, it's a nerf, but it's not as big a nerf as you might think at first glance, and everything is getting nerfed anyway.

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Mirage needs to have their endurance regen added back and the ambushes need to be greatly buffed if they only get one dodge.

    This still feels like a cheap way of balancing Mirage when they should've just looked at the ambushes with IH.

    Endurance regen wasn't taken away at all?? You do understand the difference between "endurance" and "endurance regen" right? They even removed the Exhaustion from Elusive Mind!

  • Acelidon.1358Acelidon.1358 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Acelidon.1358 said:
    The increased CD to rangers Swoop (both gs3 and soulbeast merge)..why? This is mainly a mobility/kiting skill which has nothing to do with the powercreep you're trying to address here. This reduces counterplay which contradicts what the post says about trying to improve counterplay. Also I don't see any other classes mobility skills getting increased CDs like warriors Rush or guards teleports or thieves shortbow 5/teleports.. this change seems pretty counterintuitive

    Because both of those skills, on a 1500 range class (when using Longbow obviously), allowed Soulbeast to disengage very far away and that had little counterplay when they could just either reset the fight or just nope away entirely. They were especially problematic when they were used together which allowed for 2200 units of movement.

    Rush is on a 20 second CD, 16 seconds when traited, and even if it is paired with Bull's Charge that is still less distance traveled than double Swoop and on a longer cooldown. As opposed to Swoop (Greatsword) being a 12 second CD, 9 1/2 seconds when traited, and Swoop (Beast Mode) being a 12 second CD. If anything it brings them in line.

    As for shortbow, that is tied behind a resource mechanic. Without Trickery a Thief has 12 Initiative, which means Shortbow 5 can be used twice before they are out of initiative, or with Trickery it can be used about 2 and a half times. It leaves about 3 initiative left after its used twice in that scenario.

    Guards teleports are all also either on longer cooldowns (Judge's Intervention and Merciful Intervention) or much shorter distances (Sword 2) and all require targets as opposed to the Swoop skills.

    Again...if anything it brings them more in line. They were excessive.

    Looking at the bigger picture here it isn't excessive at all..the only block rangers got is now 25s, and pet swap to smokescale (for stealth in combat) also gone, what other defenses do they have? dodging for 2s prot and 3s stealth on lb3? They need that disengage potential now more than ever. Reduce the movement points if you're desperate about it but leave the CD imo

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acelidon.1358 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Acelidon.1358 said:
    The increased CD to rangers Swoop (both gs3 and soulbeast merge)..why? This is mainly a mobility/kiting skill which has nothing to do with the powercreep you're trying to address here. This reduces counterplay which contradicts what the post says about trying to improve counterplay. Also I don't see any other classes mobility skills getting increased CDs like warriors Rush or guards teleports or thieves shortbow 5/teleports.. this change seems pretty counterintuitive

    Because both of those skills, on a 1500 range class (when using Longbow obviously), allowed Soulbeast to disengage very far away and that had little counterplay when they could just either reset the fight or just nope away entirely. They were especially problematic when they were used together which allowed for 2200 units of movement.

    Rush is on a 20 second CD, 16 seconds when traited, and even if it is paired with Bull's Charge that is still less distance traveled than double Swoop and on a longer cooldown. As opposed to Swoop (Greatsword) being a 12 second CD, 9 1/2 seconds when traited, and Swoop (Beast Mode) being a 12 second CD. If anything it brings them in line.

    As for shortbow, that is tied behind a resource mechanic. Without Trickery a Thief has 12 Initiative, which means Shortbow 5 can be used twice before they are out of initiative, or with Trickery it can be used about 2 and a half times. It leaves about 3 initiative left after its used twice in that scenario.

    Guards teleports are all also either on longer cooldowns (Judge's Intervention and Merciful Intervention) or much shorter distances (Sword 2) and all require targets as opposed to the Swoop skills.

    Again...if anything it brings them more in line. They were excessive.

    Looking at the bigger picture here it isn't excessive at all..the only block rangers got is now 25s, and pet swap to smokescale (for stealth in combat) also gone, what other defenses do they have? dodging for 2s prot and 3s stealth on lb3? They need that disengage potential now more than ever. Reduce the movement points if you're desperate about it but leave the CD imo

    They really don't need it now more than ever because guess what...power damage got reduced so TTK will be longer. Not to mention every other class got hit with similar changes, maybe not all in the mobility department but Soulbeast had it in excess. The cooldowns aren't that much longer, and when traited GS3 Swoop will be 12 seconds with its new 15 second cooldown.

    Will it take some adjusting to it? Sure, but you'll adjust to it. Much like a lot of other changes that will happen when this patch hits...it needed to happen.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Traits

    Marksmanship

    • Stoneform: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

    life saving things are now 2 times in a game, thats interresting

  • Acelidon.1358Acelidon.1358 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Every other class got hit with similar changes, maybe not all in the mobility department but Soulbeast had it in excess.

    Already talked about why its not excessive above, and nope, no other class got hit with mobility changes like that.

    The cooldowns aren't that much longer, and when traited GS3 Swoop will be 12 seconds with its new 15 second cooldown.

    thats a 6 sec cd increase to gs3 swoop, and an 8 sec cd increase to the soul merged swoop.

    Will it take some adjusting to it? Sure, but you'll adjust to it. Much like a lot of other changes that will happen when this patch hits...it needed to happen.

    Aye mate, "you'll adjust to it" you can say that about every change they're proposing, doesn't automatically make them good ideas.
    You can't strip away a classes defenses, not replace them with anything else and then say "hey, atleast when people hit you, they wont hit you that hard!"
    Either way, i've made my point here, i'm out.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    I'm okay with all the mesmer nerfs, however the change to mirage cloak is gonna take all the fun out of the class for me. I don't enjoy base mes or chronomancer anymore. Cloak was really cool and so much fun. Too strong I guess. But I wish they thought of another solution to keep it interesting and just as fun/cool.

    People are massively over-estimating the impact of this change.

    Baseline endurance recovers 5 per second. That means with no sigils, runes, vigor, food, traits, etc etc you recover 1 dodge every 10 seconds.

    Over a 100 second engagement:

    Pre-patch: Mirage can dodge 12 times (2 initial + 10 recovered)
    Post-patch: Mirage can dodge 11 times (1 initial + 10 recovered)

    Again, that's not considering any other sources than base endurance recovery. When you factor in other sources of endurance recovery and mirage-mirror generation, the difference becomes even smaller.

    It's not a nerf to endurance recovery. It just means you have 1 less "pre-loaded" up-front. It is not a "50% nerf".

    Sure, it's a nerf, but it's not as big a nerf as you might think at first glance, and everything is getting nerfed anyway.

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Mirage needs to have their endurance regen added back and the ambushes need to be greatly buffed if they only get one dodge.

    This still feels like a cheap way of balancing Mirage when they should've just looked at the ambushes with IH.

    Endurance regen wasn't taken away at all?? You do understand the difference between "endurance" and "endurance regen" right? They even removed the Exhaustion from Elusive Mind!

    In one case, you have the ability to time 2 dodge to evade 2 key skills.
    In other case you have the ability to time 1 dodge to evade 1 key skills.
    You example is just meh as I never see people in PvP dodge when it's up, they conserve it for key moment and that's basically what distinguish good player from bad.
    This change will basically mean that mirage couldn't fight more than 10 sec on point and I doubt than the +1 ability will be worth it considering some pressure came from ambush...
    And you will lose many over endurance as you will conserve your unique dodge for the right moment where other people can just burn one if they have more than half bar.

    I'm not saying it isn't a nerf.

    It is definitely a nerf.

    But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

  • Zraurum.8493Zraurum.8493 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    You divide the class mechanics into three different parts (www pve pvp), this is wrong, the class should feel the same in all modes, and not so that in pvp 1 clone in Mesmer, and in pve 2 clone, either do the same in all modes or do not change the class mechanics , the player is difficult to adapt to a completely different behavior of the native class in another game mode and they just stop playing different game modes,I think a lot of people will agree with me.

    Arenanet you force to play power builds depriving people of choice, reducing the number of game options, completely destroying the condi builds. Look at the experience of Ncsoft, which broke the balance in lineage 2 made 8 classes instead of 30 +, then the developer regretted it very much, starting to introduce again ridiculous skills so that the classes began to differ, but nothing could be fixed. People simply ran away from such changes, you are now going the same way.

    I communicate through a translator

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Foshizle.9802 said:
    I don't understand Shadow Arts nerf. It's currently a meta trait on more than 1 build, none of which really uses "Shadow's Rejuvenation" let alone "Merciful ambush".
    Given the overall nerfs and thief play style remaining the same, SA will be be even better in perspective than it currently is.

    Overall stealth was barely touched, heartseeker ignored (it will hit pretty hard after these nerfs), shadow shot went from 4 to 5 innitiative,... thief meta strength received a very gentle slap compared to other specs.

    But overall well done, this was needed.

    This. If you're going to hit everyone hit thieves in sa harder. The last thing we need is this getting soured by permastealth.

    Im usually not one for proposing thief hits because squishy, but by extension all thieves just got less squishy. They can take more shaving to SA in particular. Leeching venoms and siphoning can probably be dialed back.

    Also people who wanted exorbitant nerfs getting them but also getting their cheese nerfed WHEEZE

    Siphoning? Like, Shadow Siphoning? The trait so irrelevant its a minor so that people cant skip it? Of all the things to nerf, Im surprised youd nerf the one thing that desperately needed buffs pre-patch.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    can revenant plz have a higher range on legendswap radius skills to 360 , something I think using sword3 / axe4 is not garantie for letting theese skills proc on your target
    also some short stealth skills for core, becasue vanishing into the mist would be nice

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    Please don't remove Foot in the Grave, and also increase necro stunbreak cooldowns in PvP.
    Will make soloq core nec pretty useless.

    One or the other.

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ooooh yeah I cant wait for the tears of the kitten birds being class carried by mesmer dodge all and condi trash, teef trash like infinite dodge and spam, or block everything heal everything burn everything guards.

    Things are about to be much much better off in this game.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    Ooooh yeah I cant wait for the tears of the kitten birds being class carried by mesmer dodge all and condi trash, teef trash like infinite dodge and spam, or block everything heal everything burn everything guards.

    Things are about to be much much better off in this game.

    Don't worry, if you are convinced that currently mirage has a 100% dodge uptime, you will still get destroyed after patch. This patch will change nothing for you.

  • Serious this Mesmer nerf??? kitten, if you hate mesmer, just delete it!!!

  • Jazz.4639Jazz.4639 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

    it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in how bad it is, is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    hahahaha came here to see all the ranger/mesmer main share some salt :+1:

    Don't worry, you will just want to leave the game when they reroll to your main class and kill you in few second. B)

    hihihihihi

    YT/Tw PvP WvW Power Mes Guides/ Gameplay https://tinyurl.com/njhmjsh
    my neighbours listen to awesome music... whether they want it or not

  • @c u again.3267 said:
    smokescreen needs to be at least a min cd, its the stronget skill in the game
    ele glyph is digsutingly op needs like 2 min cd or so
    these are the most cancerous things about currente metagame and theyre being left out
    its very disappointing

    never thought id agree with miaz

  • @bluri.2653 said:
    Cmc and ben the saviours, and whoever more involved!

    B)

    looks like 2020 gonna be a good year for this game

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Ok, I've had some time to digest the engineer changes, so I'm going to post a few general observations I have:

    • Core engineer, by comparison with other classes, got a buff (with a caveat). Most of the kits were unaffected by the nerfs, meaning that their relative power is much higher than it was before. The problem is that while their damage is now relatively higher, these skills are still mechanically weak compared to elite specs (which often have multiple functions per skill).
    • Scrapper is going to be genuinely worse than it was before. The damage nerfs also mean a sustain nerf in barrier generation. In addition, the cooldown increase on Rocket Leap and reduction in superspeed all around will mean scrapper will have a very difficult time keeping up with enemies, one of its biggest problems to date. See this thread for more details.
    • Holo is more vulnerable to getting ping-ponged now. The stability on corona burst was critical to its ability to remain in melee range. Engineer has a stunbreak/stability problem (as in, most stunbreaks don't prevent an immediate follow-up CC), and this nerf is going to make it all the more apparent.
    • Certain CC's that NEVER saw use (Rocket Turret Overcharge, Big Ol' Bomb, Supply Crate) all face the universal damage nerf to 0.01, making them even less desireable than they were before. These skills are just abhorrent now. Almost all turret skills need serious revisiting, this patch will make them all horrendous.
    • Condi damage on engineer is being drastically nerfed (even core engineer), but I don't see reductions in overall cleansing capabilities for other classes, or engineer. What tiny amount of condi engineer exists got essentially erased. The pistol damage coefficient nerf just made me laugh as the icing on the cake.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jazz.4639 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

    it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in its unlogically "nonsenseness" by contradicting the whole base mechanic of the spec is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

    In my opinion, it'd have made more sense to give Mirage regular dodges and having Mirage cloak + it's evade only applied via those purple mirrors or skills that grant it.
    But the first part of Desert Distortion would be better as a minor trait with such a change.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    • Scrapper is going to be genuinely worse than it was before. The damage nerfs also mean a sustain nerf in barrier generation.

    but damage nerfs also mean you don't need as much barrier to block a hit. so it's a null change

    Certain CC's that NEVER saw use (Rocket Turret Overcharge, Big Ol' Bomb, Supply Crate) all face the universal damage nerf to 0.01, making them even less desireable than they were before. These skills are just abhorrent now.

    agree on bomb and turret, but supply crate was never about the damage. it's actually getting buffed. the CC is bigger and the cooldown is shorter. It looks like a better skill than before to me

  • Taylan.2187Taylan.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    Not gonna nitpick any particulars, just repeat what I already said in the WvW thread: I'm loving the direction this takes.

    One of my main gripes with competitive game modes is that when you don't have the time to train very hard and just play the game occasionally as a hobby, the difference in skill means that a good player can kill you in 5 seconds or less, and you have no time window during that in which you can in any way observe what they're doing and learn from the mistakes in your reaction. You just panic and spam your dodge, heal, condi clear and stun break moves. A general increase in the TTK, a clearer separation of CC and damage skills, and less reliance on passive skills are all good ways to treat that problem.

  • Jazz.4639Jazz.4639 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Jazz.4639 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

    it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in its unlogically "nonsenseness" by contradicting the whole base mechanic of the spec is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

    In my opinion, it'd have made more sense to give Mirage regular dodges and having Mirage cloak + it's evade only applied via those purple mirrors or skills that grant it.
    But the first part of Desert Distortion would be better as a minor trait with such a change.

    indeed, since mirrors are not good enough to replace normal dodges this would have been another idea for mirage redesign right from start. this way mirage would have still some sort of instant dodges (that is lit all mirage is about, having an instant dodge, you cannot take this away totally) by mirrors while having normal endurance dodges like everyone else. but i doubt that at this point anet can or will do such a change. you would need to totally rework how clones ambushes and ih function (at least you need to make them function on normal dodges then too) because if they do not give reward for each dodge they are way too weak as dodge trait and as spec mechanic compared to other dodge traits and other classes mechanics in the game. also it would be a spec redesign and not a trade-off and this redesign maybe would make another trade-off even unnecessary but other classes still would cry about mirage doesnt get anything called trade-off, no matter if it would make sense or not anymore. anet started with that, uuuhmm lets say unlucky, trade-off idea and can most likely not step back from it. so we have to deal with that mess and try to at least suggest trade-offs that are not unlogical and not contradicting to and for that destroying the base nature of the spec. nerfs are fine, destruction is not, esp when it destroys skillful gameplay more than nerfing the lame stuff.

    YT/Tw PvP WvW Power Mes Guides/ Gameplay https://tinyurl.com/njhmjsh
    my neighbours listen to awesome music... whether they want it or not

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @reikken.4961 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    • Scrapper is going to be genuinely worse than it was before. The damage nerfs also mean a sustain nerf in barrier generation.

    but damage nerfs also mean you don't need as much barrier to block a hit. so it's a null change

    Not exactly. Impact Savant, the trait that permanently lower scrapper's HP, hasn't been altered. So scrapper still has the lower health pool, but even less to show for it.

    Certain CC's that NEVER saw use (Rocket Turret Overcharge, Big Ol' Bomb, Supply Crate) all face the universal damage nerf to 0.01, making them even less desireable than they were before. These skills are just abhorrent now.

    agree on bomb and turret, but supply crate was never about the damage. it's actually getting buffed. the CC is bigger and the cooldown is shorter. It looks like a better skill than before to me

    Except 90s is still worse than almost all other CC's available to engineer elites. Don't forget to compare to Elixir X and Prime Light Beam. Those two skills alone possess much better CC than Supply Crate on lower cooldowns.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jazz.4639 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Jazz.4639 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

    it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in its unlogically "nonsenseness" by contradicting the whole base mechanic of the spec is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

    In my opinion, it'd have made more sense to give Mirage regular dodges and having Mirage cloak + it's evade only applied via those purple mirrors or skills that grant it.
    But the first part of Desert Distortion would be better as a minor trait with such a change.

    indeed, since mirrors are not good enough to replace normal dodges this would have been another idea for mirage redesign right from start. this way mirage would have still some sort of instant dodges (that is lit all mirage is about, having an instant dodge, you cannot take this away totally) by mirrors while having normal endurance dodges like everyone else. but i doubt that at this point anet can or will do such a change. you would need to totally rework how clones ambushes and ih function (at least you need to make them function on normal dodges then too) because if they do not give reward for each dodge they are way too weak as dodge trait and as spec mechanic compared to other dodge traits and other classes mechanics in the game. also it would be a spec redesign and not a trade-off and this redesign maybe would make another trade-off even unnecessary but other classes still would cry about mirage doesnt get anything called trade-off, no matter if it would make sense or not anymore. anet started with that, uuuhmm lets say unlucky, trade-off idea and can most likely not step back from it. so we have to deal with that mess and try to at least suggest trade-offs that are not unlogical and not contradicting to and for that destroying the base nature of the spec. nerfs are fine, destruction is not, esp when it destroys skillful gameplay more than nerfing the lame stuff.

    I don't think Clones should have Evades at all.
    I don't think they should have direct damage or conditions either.
    They should just be there for visual clutter, confusing enemies and shatters.
    Infinite Horizon could be replaced by one of the minor traits and the first part of Desert Distortion takes that minor's place.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And i just got back into pvp.
    And they take away a mirage dodge.
    Now i have one dodge....and distortion and then i guess i run?
    So legit how am i gonna contest any point its already hard enough as it.

    So that mirage is dead and chrono has been dead what do i do play core?
    Definitely gonna try to get a refund on the expansions now.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.