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  • I like how they tried to nerf Elementalists into the ground so they do absolutely no damage, as their damage is low on most skills already, and completely forgot about the other skills. Anyone else see what they forgot? Same for rangers. It's funny and hits 12k in Marauders.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My biggest problem is the aproach of nerfing smth by 1, upping its cd and 2, lowering its power in some way.

    If smth has a long cd it should be impactfull.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Foshizle.9802 said:
    I don't understand Shadow Arts nerf. It's currently a meta trait on more than 1 build, none of which really uses "Shadow's Rejuvenation" let alone "Merciful ambush".
    Given the overall nerfs and thief play style remaining the same, SA will be be even better in perspective than it currently is.

    Overall stealth was barely touched, heartseeker ignored (it will hit pretty hard after these nerfs), shadow shot went from 4 to 5 innitiative,... thief meta strength received a very gentle slap compared to other specs.

    But overall well done, this was needed.

    This. If you're going to hit everyone hit thieves in sa harder. The last thing we need is this getting soured by permastealth.

    Im usually not one for proposing thief hits because squishy, but by extension all thieves just got less squishy. They can take more shaving to SA in particular. Leeching venoms and siphoning can probably be dialed back.

    Also people who wanted exorbitant nerfs getting them but also getting their cheese nerfed WHEEZE

    Siphoning? Like, Shadow Siphoning? The trait so irrelevant its a minor so that people cant skip it? Of all the things to nerf, Im surprised youd nerf the one thing that desperately needed buffs pre-patch.

    Look, I'd rather no additional nerfs to thief. I'm just saying If it happened to get hit, it would be something I could live with. theres a small group of people going "REEE SA DAMAGE" right now, and I'd rather that than people gutting stealth access on the stealth traitline because of it.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • apocalypso.4895apocalypso.4895 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Long time ranger player here, I'll leave some feedback on the things I disagree with, considering that this can only touch numbers.

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Ranger


    Axe MH

    • Splitblade: Reduced power coefficient per axe from 0.4 to 0.1. Increased bleeding duration from 6 seconds to 12 seconds. Increased cooldown from 6 seconds to 8 seconds

    The only reliable way to hit the 5 spliblade axes is to target a downed body at melee range, a nerf this hard to it's power coefficient is unjustifiable imo.

    Axe OH

    • Path of Scars: Reduced power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.01

    I don't even use axe OH in pvp, but this change does not make sense because path of scar is a two part skill, and not only that, it's very hard to land in actual pvp. The actual cc is only in the second part, the pull, which is ok to lose it's damage, but the first part of it should keep it's damage, since it's not a cc.

    Utility

    • Dolyak Stance: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 60 seconds

    This skill is the main thing that prevents soulbeasts from becoming a cc sponge by all the cc there is in the game. I don't think this is justifiable considering our defense (weapon evades, mobility, passives, stun breaks) are being nerfed/removed and the 40seconds cooldown is already substantial and can't be reduced via traits.

    Elite

    • Strength of the Pack: Reduced might duration from 10 seconds to 6 seconds. Reduced stability duration from 8 seconds to 6 seconds

    Have a honest look at all the hard cc and boon strip spam that there will still be in the game after this patch and tell me that 8 seconds of stability every 75 seconds for a elite skill with a 1s cast time and no stun break is too much. There is nothing less fun than being a cc sponge

    Druid - in general

    Does Druid really needs to be nerfed this much to be at the same level as other support professions? You know the answer is no. I have not touched it in competitive modes for a while and will never do so after this patch goes live.

    In general my problem with these changes for ranger is that they absolutely lack direction, and don't balance, they just reduce everything without consideration. Meanwhile thief largely kept the same mobility, stealth and spam ability due to initiative being untouched, necro gets a huge buff for it's shroud mechanic due to how power levels are lower now, and some classes get way too many buffs/compensations that look unjustifiable to me by looking at the plain direct and overall nerfs classes like ranger got.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acelidon.1358 said:

    Every other class got hit with similar changes, maybe not all in the mobility department but Soulbeast had it in excess.

    Already talked about why its not excessive above, and nope, no other class got hit with mobility changes like that.

    The cooldowns aren't that much longer, and when traited GS3 Swoop will be 12 seconds with its new 15 second cooldown.

    thats a 6 sec cd increase to gs3 swoop, and an 8 sec cd increase to the soul merged swoop.

    Will it take some adjusting to it? Sure, but you'll adjust to it. Much like a lot of other changes that will happen when this patch hits...it needed to happen.

    Aye mate, "you'll adjust to it" you can say that about every change they're proposing, doesn't automatically make them good ideas.
    You can't strip away a classes defenses, not replace them with anything else and then say "hey, atleast when people hit you, they wont hit you that hard!"
    Either way, i've made my point here, i'm out.

    I understand its not easy seeing a class you play get hit with nerfs, even though "bigger picture" everything else did as well. The fact of the matter is that Swoop, especially double Swoop, was extremely strong mobility on extremely low cooldowns compared to the mobility skills of other classes. Increasing their cooldowns respectively brings them more in line with other mobility skills. Swoop (GS) will be on a 15 second cooldown, 12 when traited and Swoop (Beast Mode) will be an 18 second cooldown. That is pretty on par with other mobility skills in the game...I really don't see how that is a problem. Its a change that needed to happen, just like Obsidian Flesh needed its change to happen as well, and how Warrior needed its Passives neutered, and so on and so forth. Their cooldowns, maybe Beast Mode Swoop, might get adjusted but give yourself time to adjust to the changes. Don't freak out over it, especially when something did need to be done about how strong they were.

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    And i just got back into pvp.
    And they take away a mirage dodge.
    Now i have one dodge....and distortion and then i guess i run?
    So legit how am i gonna contest any point its already hard enough as it.

    So that mirage is dead and chrono has been dead what do i do play core?
    Definitely gonna try to get a refund on the expansions now.

    Looking at the changes as a whole yeah Mirage got hit pretty hard. However Core Mesmer and Chrono will likely see more play not just because Mirage will have been removed from holding a monopoly on builds, but also because some Core traits got some reworks and Chrono got some changes that will help propel them up a bit. Whether you agree or not, Mirage held such a monopoly in competitive play that it cut everything else out. While I don't agree necessarily with how they hit their dodge, something did need to be done. Ideally they would have just removed Mirage's ability to dodge while CC'd (no not Elusive Mind).

    Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

    Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

    Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

    They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

    Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

    Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

    They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

    Dolyak Stance is a ranger skill. Dolyak Signet is the warrior skill.

    Dolyak STANCE has gone from 40 sec -> 60 sec cooldown. It basically gives an unstrippable version of protection that works against condi damage, stability, stunbreaks, removes immob/cripple/chill and prevents application of immob/cripple/chill for the duration (5-6 seconds)

  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭

    GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.
    Praise CMC and Ben.

    What im concerned about is 2 things:
    We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.
    BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

    As necro,
    I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.
    Also cast times.
    Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

    Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.
    And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

    Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

    Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

    They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

    Dolyak Stance is a ranger skill. Dolyak Signet is the warrior skill.

    Yeah you right, I hardcore brain farted on that. My bad.

    Some of the point still stands, though. They want to limit Stability access, especially in the case of Ranger it seems due to its 10 Stability on Strength of the Pack paired with Dolyak Stance. It looks like most skills that give stability got 60 second CDs due to this fact as it is a pretty readily available skill especially for a Boonbeast running with boon duration and Moa Stance. Also hence the reduction in duration on Stability on Strength of the Pack because with enough boon duration you can essentially make that large stack of Stability last until Dolyak Stance is available again.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

    Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

    Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

    They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

    Dolyak Stance is a ranger skill. Dolyak Signet is the warrior skill.

    Yeah you right, I hardcore brain farted on that. My bad.

    Some of the point still stands, though. They want to limit Stability access, especially in the case of Ranger it seems due to its 10 Stability on Strength of the Pack paired with Dolyak Stance. It looks like most skills that give stability got 60 second CDs due to this fact as it is a pretty readily available skill especially for a Boonbeast running with boon duration and Moa Stance. Also hence the reduction in duration on Stability on Strength of the Pack because with enough boon duration you can essentially make that large stack of Stability last until Dolyak Stance is available again.

    Fair enough. I hadn't quite considered the full extent of boonbeast's copy thing compounding stab issues. That said - I still would like to see Dolyak Stance's cooldown reduced and some of its effects reduced/removed (does it really have to have 33% damage ruduction?).

    I get that it's a problem - however, I think anet's method here is just...making the problem occur less often, instead of actually fixing it? Dolyak Stance will still be pretty oppressive when it's used, and while I don't deny that this is...satisfactory, I'm not fond of how it's looking like it'll impact things outside it's 'problem space' so to speak. Like what if I run slightly different utilities and not as much boon copy? Suddenly one of my utility skills has skyrocketed in cooldown for totally unrelated reasons.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

    Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

    Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

    They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

    Dolyak Stance is a ranger skill. Dolyak Signet is the warrior skill.

    Yeah you right, I hardcore brain farted on that. My bad.

    Some of the point still stands, though. They want to limit Stability access, especially in the case of Ranger it seems due to its 10 Stability on Strength of the Pack paired with Dolyak Stance. It looks like most skills that give stability got 60 second CDs due to this fact as it is a pretty readily available skill especially for a Boonbeast running with boon duration and Moa Stance. Also hence the reduction in duration on Stability on Strength of the Pack because with enough boon duration you can essentially make that large stack of Stability last until Dolyak Stance is available again.

    Fair enough. I hadn't quite considered the full extent of boonbeast's copy thing compounding stab issues. That said - I still would like to see Dolyak Stance's cooldown reduced and some of its effects reduced/removed (does it really have to have 33% damage ruduction?).

    I get that it's a problem - however, I think anet's method here is just...making the problem occur less often, instead of actually fixing it? Dolyak Stance will still be pretty oppressive when it's used, and while I don't deny that this is...satisfactory, I'm not fond of how it's looking like it'll impact things outside it's 'problem space' so to speak. Like what if I run slightly different utilities and not as much boon copy? Suddenly one of my utility skills has skyrocketed in cooldown for totally unrelated reasons.

    I think that may be the point. Boons have pretty much been the center point as to how power creep even got to where its been and reducing availability of boons is a step to help mitigate that as a problem. Reducing their availability and reducing their duration directly results in a reduction in boon uptime which Soulbeast has in quite a bit of abundance. The intent I believe is that while Dolyak Stance will still be oppressive when its used it will not be available as often and result in better opportunities for openings, which this is true across all classes at this point due to the increase in CD on similar skills, yet still roughly maintaining the impact of said skills so that you have to make smarter choices about when to use them.

    I imagine many things will still shift around a bit depending on the practical use of skills and where builds go after the patch hits, but they have done this to establish a foundation to work from so that they can adjust accordingly based around the newer dynamic ingame.

  • Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

    Based on this response and your earlier ones you appear to either hate rangers for some unfathomable reason, are secretly an employee in disguise who feels the need to defend every action they wanna take here, or straight up don't know what you're talking about seeing as you thought dolyak stance was a warrior skill.

    Yes, we get it. This isn't going to be permanent, they will make changes in the future. Does that mean we shouldn't give feedback at this point? No. There's no need to try and justify/defend everything or generalise things to make the discussions about specific skills and classes appear irrelevant. That's why we're here.

    If you wanna actually discuss the issue that I'm talking about..that rangers defenses are being stripped away without actually being replaced with anything, and hence my point on swoop, then let's discuss that. Saying things like "you'll adjust" or "longer TTK for all classes" or "give feedback on the whole" doesn't help anyone. The whole is made up of each individual component, and that's what members are trying to contribute towards.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi, we are nerfing all cc to do low damage

    Just keep in mind, once this goes through, that you take a second look at the CC you just nerfed. Any CC that had secondary effects or conditional perks based on what its hit context was needs to get those conditions moved in some form to either their followup skills, or provide some kind of boon.

    For example:
    Revenge counter will need a revisit.
    Headbutt will need a revisit, as it is supposed to do more damage if it removes stability.
    You may want to revisit Executioners Scythe, because it's a two second cast with an obvious animation and can only hit one person because it was based on spike damage.
    You may want to revisit palm strike.

    I'm sure a bunch of cc also fits this bill, but those are the ones I know off the top of my head. Just making sure that stays on the radar.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acelidon.1358 said:

    Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

    Based on this response and your earlier ones you appear to either hate rangers for some unfathomable reason, are secretly an employee in disguise who feels the need to defend every action they wanna take here, or straight up don't know what you're talking about seeing as you thought dolyak stance was a warrior skill.

    Yes, we get it. This isn't going to be permanent, they will make changes in the future. Does that mean we shouldn't give feedback at this point? No. There's no need to try and justify/defend everything or generalise things to make the discussions about specific skills and classes appear irrelevant. That's why we're here.

    If you wanna actually discuss the issue that I'm talking about..that rangers defenses are being stripped away without actually being replaced with anything, and hence my point on swoop, then let's discuss that. Saying things like "you'll adjust" or "longer TTK for all classes" or "give feedback on the whole" doesn't help anyone. The whole is made up of each individual component, and that's what members are trying to contribute towards.

    I don't hate Rangers, I'm just not affected by the same bias as you. I've approached looking at this game's need for balance and looked for problems in every class, even the ones that I play. That is I'm a Warrior main and I 100% agree with the changes made to it. The passives on it needed a rework so giving them the 5 minute ICD pulls them from wide use to give them time to do so. Warrior Might generation needed attention and it got that attention, it will more than likely be much less after the patch. Bull's Charge got the damage reduction to 0.01 like it needed. Rampage needed its damage skills to take a damage reduction as well, and Reckless Dodge had its damage reduced as well. All things that I agree needed to happen to Warrior, and I play Warrior religiously.

    As for the Dolyak Stance remark...I freely admitted that I made a mistake there in reading and owned up to it and continued the discussion afterwards. Dial it back, man.

    So many people have tried to pinpoint the exact wrong things that were problems with classes for a long time, and some of the actual things that made problems on classes weren't all hit with this update but many were. I don't fully agree with what happened to Mirage's dodge, I think it would have been more appropriate to alter it so that Mirage can no longer dodge while CC'd, just as an example. I've spoken with long time Soulbeast players on the topic of Swoop as well and they have agreed that its a lot of movement on very short cooldowns and something needed to be done with it. A cooldown increase is the most mild of changes that will potentially serve to bring it in line with other mobility skills. Imagine if they had cut the movement directly in half on each of them? I get the feeling you wouldn't have been happy with that and its a much more drastic change.

    Like I said, I understand reading about your class getting nerfed in some way can be frustrating, but objectively speaking its a change that needed to happen. Give feedback all you want, but keep in mind people can also challenge the logic behind it because sometimes people might not see the picture so clearly. I challenged it because the comparisons you made to double Swoop didn't make much sense.

    Don't assume I hate anything just because I disagree with it, or you for that matter. I don't.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OddFinrir.6801 said:
    I like how they tried to nerf Elementalists into the ground so they do absolutely no damage, as their damage is low on most skills already, and completely forgot about the other skills. Anyone else see what they forgot? Same for rangers. It's funny and hits 12k in Marauders.

    it's funny how you think ele is actually weak, when fire weaver is literally the dominant duelist in the game currently.
    It's also funny how you seem to have missed all of the nerfs across all of the professions and specs.
    FeelsBadMan

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acelidon.1358 said:

    Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

    Based on this response and your earlier ones you appear to either hate rangers for some unfathomable reason, are secretly an employee in disguise who feels the need to defend every action they wanna take here, or straight up don't know what you're talking about seeing as you thought dolyak stance was a warrior skill.

    Based on your response to their response, I can tell you're probably a player that was carried by how broken ranger and gazelle was.
    Back to silver with you boi.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • @Ghos.1326 said:

    @OddFinrir.6801 said:
    I like how they tried to nerf Elementalists into the ground so they do absolutely no damage, as their damage is low on most skills already, and completely forgot about the other skills. Anyone else see what they forgot? Same for rangers. It's funny and hits 12k in Marauders.

    it's funny how you think ele is actually weak, when fire weaver is literally the dominant duelist in the game currently.
    It's also funny how you seem to have missed all of the nerfs across all of the professions and specs.
    FeelsBadMan

    I'm not sure if this is a strawman argument, poor reading comprehension, or both. O_o

  • Looking great! Please increase swipe from 600 range to 900. 600 range is a little ridiculous. Especially when considering the range of all the other attacks. :)

    Really looking forward to NO ONE SHOT BUILDS!

    This is all very exciting. You guys are awesome.

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    Ooooh yeah I cant wait for the tears of the kitten birds being class carried by mesmer dodge all and condi trash, teef trash like infinite dodge and spam, or block everything heal everything burn everything guards.

    Things are about to be much much better off in this game.

    Don't worry, if you are convinced that currently mirage has a 100% dodge uptime, you will still get destroyed after patch. This patch will change nothing for you.

    Being a reaper main for that long all I can say is having unlimited resources to evade damage like dodge, stealth, evade, and invulnerability due to the mass amount of skills and extra perks all while letting out massive condition farts is not what one class should have.

    Either enjoy the spam dmg or evade damage forever. Not both.

    Poor mes trash mains that have abused a broken class to carry them are the only ones that will complain about the mes nerfs. Everyone else from that I've talked to is quite happy.

    All mes mains "wait you mean I cant just dodge, evade, stealth away from, or go invulnerable all game while gassing out conditions everywhere?"

    Yes you have to choose spam or dodge all dmg not both. Welcome to my world lol

  • I wanted to post this here in the main thread because I think this skill needs more discussion.

    Hard CC like Bulls Charge should be the setup for a burst, not part of the burst itself. People are downing enemies right now with Bulls Charge with 5k+ crits. They land the CC and then they do not have to burst anymore, the enemy was downed.

    A 3 second knockdown is VERY powerful.
    A 3 second knockdown combined with 900 units of movement, and a 1 1/4 second evade is UBER powerful. I dont really consider this skill as a utility, its really an elite level of power in its current state.

    The fact of the matter is that this "Utility" does far too much for a single button press especially when you consider its cool-down.

    Removing the damage was the right thing to do and re-enforces the set-up/burst game-play which is the right way to go.

    I personally feel that Utilities with a very hard hitting 3 second CC should not be combined with a 1 1/4 second Evade, and 900 units of movement. Unless its an elite. I think skills like this need more consideration on if they are really good for the game.

    EDIT: - Yeah, this should be a Physical Elite skill similar to Thief's Impact Strike/Uppercut/Finishing Blow Elite.

    EDIT 2: - I would make Signet of Rage have a much faster cast time and be used more as part of a Rotation type of play-style, I feel like the shorter duration of the boons would be fair with a shorter cool-down. I think SoR would be a good contrast to BC if Bulls Charge was made into a Physical Elite. BC would be more powerful but on a longer cool-down and re-enforce the CC/Burst mechanic.

  • Based on your response to their response, I can tell you're probably a player that was carried by how broken ranger and gazelle was.
    Back to silver with you boi.

    I play warrior, ranger and necro with a focus on warrior, and I use smokescale and sparrow on ranger so youre wrong on both counts, sorry to disappoint :( try reading what the conversation is about before jumping in spouting nonsense

  • @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Acelidon.1358 said:

    Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

    Based on this response and your earlier ones you appear to either hate rangers for some unfathomable reason, are secretly an employee in disguise who feels the need to defend every action they wanna take here, or straight up don't know what you're talking about seeing as you thought dolyak stance was a warrior skill.

    Yes, we get it. This isn't going to be permanent, they will make changes in the future. Does that mean we shouldn't give feedback at this point? No. There's no need to try and justify/defend everything or generalise things to make the discussions about specific skills and classes appear irrelevant. That's why we're here.

    If you wanna actually discuss the issue that I'm talking about..that rangers defenses are being stripped away without actually being replaced with anything, and hence my point on swoop, then let's discuss that. Saying things like "you'll adjust" or "longer TTK for all classes" or "give feedback on the whole" doesn't help anyone. The whole is made up of each individual component, and that's what members are trying to contribute towards.

    I don't hate Rangers, I'm just not affected by the same bias as you. I've approached looking at this game's need for balance and looked for problems in every class, even the ones that I play. That is I'm a Warrior main and I 100% agree with the changes made to it. The passives on it needed a rework so giving them the 5 minute ICD pulls them from wide use to give them time to do so. Warrior Might generation needed attention and it got that attention, it will more than likely be much less after the patch. Bull's Charge got the damage reduction to 0.01 like it needed. Rampage needed its damage skills to take a damage reduction as well, and Reckless Dodge had its damage reduced as well. All things that I agree needed to happen to Warrior, and I play Warrior religiously.

    As for the Dolyak Stance remark...I freely admitted that I made a mistake there in reading and owned up to it and continued the discussion afterwards. Dial it back, man.

    So many people have tried to pinpoint the exact wrong things that were problems with classes for a long time, and some of the actual things that made problems on classes weren't all hit with this update but many were. I don't fully agree with what happened to Mirage's dodge, I think it would have been more appropriate to alter it so that Mirage can no longer dodge while CC'd, just as an example. I've spoken with long time Soulbeast players on the topic of Swoop as well and they have agreed that its a lot of movement on very short cooldowns and something needed to be done with it. A cooldown increase is the most mild of changes that will potentially serve to bring it in line with other mobility skills. Imagine if they had cut the movement directly in half on each of them? I get the feeling you wouldn't have been happy with that and its a much more drastic change.

    Like I said, I understand reading about your class getting nerfed in some way can be frustrating, but objectively speaking its a change that needed to happen. Give feedback all you want, but keep in mind people can also challenge the logic behind it because sometimes people might not see the picture so clearly. I challenged it because the comparisons you made to double Swoop didn't make much sense.

    Don't assume I hate anything just because I disagree with it, or you for that matter. I don't.

    In my second comment I actually said that they can reduce swoops movement points if it's such an issue, which you seem to have missed..increasing the CD is more disruptive imo since rangers can kite less often. This is a problem with stealth being taken away, counterattack also getting higher CD, dolyak stance stab getting higher CD, and losing evade frames on a class that didn't have as many options to begin with.

    I agree with a lot of changes they've made as well, including to warrior which I main. That's why I chose to focus on a specific issue which could be handled better.

  • Zraurum.8493Zraurum.8493 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    And i just got back into pvp.
    And they take away a mirage dodge.
    Now i have one dodge....and distortion and then i guess i run?
    So legit how am i gonna contest any point its already hard enough as it.

    So that mirage is dead and chrono has been dead what do i do play core?
    Definitely gonna try to get a refund on the expansions now.

    The only thing that comes to mind is to switch to Chrono in the power build and beat the auto attack with greatsword at the expense of alacrity . Either run to capture points behind a shield and blocks scepter 2, bad gameplay of course . Either, too, most on Mirage until first embody in goal to adversary, not know that better, I already after as 1 clone have left with staff stopped play in pvp of a, so as not suffer masochism and believe me me not like. I don't really care what they do with the class next, it's not playable in condi at the moment, so it's like kicking a dead person.

    I communicate through a translator

  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭✭

    Thank you anet!!!!

    This got to be the best patch notes in whole GW2 history.

    It is what the PVP really needed, reduce skill's effectiveness. This should open up more build options (hopefully end of burst or be burst gameplay).

    Looking forward to patch day :)

    thank you again!

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    why dont change mirage to "if you pick infinite horizon you have 1 or 2 less clones available? will be better than destroying it with one less dodge

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    why dont change mirage to "if you pick infinite horizon you have 1 or 2 less clones available? will be better than destroying it with one less dodge

    Probably because they want it to have more risk with the reward of a trait that provides both sustain for the clones and improved dps at the same time
    Ideally Infinite horizon would have been better as a minor trait that always procs clones to perform their ambush attacks but does not let them avoid incoming damage so long as the caster is not stunned

    That should have been how it designed from the start.

    At the moment that trait provides a lot and now players want to come up with ideas to avoid only having 1 dodge yet didnt want other players input months ago and simply always told them to "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"

    3-5 months ago or longer...
    Other profession Players
    Nerf IH it does too much, Mirage should not be able to dodge while stunned.
    Mirage Players
    No its fine just learn 2 play. We have trade off cause we don't roll anymore we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun.

    Currently as of the notes seen above
    Mirage Players
    Just not let us dodge while CC'ed anymore but let us keep the endurance omg! WaHt R u DoInG!
    Other profession Players
    (silence)

    Like for real though i dont really know what to say anet really wants you to have the top level of skill to use this trait it seems is it fair? Prob not.... but was it fair months ago when everyone was trying to say "this is not fair"... no not really

  • Neil.3825Neil.3825 Member ✭✭

    @reikken.4961 said:
    Oh also, while CC doing no damage as a general rule is cool---great, even---I'm not sold on cutting all of the damage from every single one of them. Like ones with really big tells that do nothing else, like engineer's big ol bomb. It seems wrong for it to not do any damage.

    It's a minor complaint, though. I am interested to see how this goes.

    This. Skills like big ol' bomb, drop the hammer, prime light beam, executioner's scythe or other BIG tells cc should do some damage or have shorten tell.

    But except that, this is the best patch I ever seen since the launch of this game. I love it, THANK YOU ! <3

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acelidon.1358 said:

    Based on your response to their response, I can tell you're probably a player that was carried by how broken ranger and gazelle was.
    Back to silver with you boi.

    I play warrior, ranger and necro with a focus on warrior, and I use smokescale and sparrow on ranger so youre wrong on both counts, sorry to disappoint :( try reading what the conversation is about before jumping in spouting nonsense

    Warrior, Ranger, and Necro, all classes that are extremely potent in this meta. Thanks for proving my point.
    Next.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Acelidon.1358 said:

    Based on your response to their response, I can tell you're probably a player that was carried by how broken ranger and gazelle was.
    Back to silver with you boi.

    I play warrior, ranger and necro with a focus on warrior, and I use smokescale and sparrow on ranger so youre wrong on both counts, sorry to disappoint :( try reading what the conversation is about before jumping in spouting nonsense

    Warrior, Ranger, and Necro, all classes that are extremely potent in this meta. Thanks for proving my point.
    Next.

    Yeah but so is fb,weaver and thief so that leaves what other classes lol not to mention holo before the last nerf. Seems like most classes had/have broken carry specs so really what it comes down to at this point is gw2 = carry builds in all classes which means if ur a gw2 player ur being ....... by by ur class no matter which one ur playing so can't really come down on any players for being carried by their spec if we all are pretty much lol

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    Overall, I like the direction of the changes, but I have a few concerns:

    • Some CC skills, such as Spike Trap seem to be too heavily taxed with the damage removal. Maybe change the knockdown to a short daze/stun and keep the damage? Earthshaker seems pretty heavily punished as well since it already has 2 other skills on the weapon without damage. Not sure how to address that one.
    • There's still a lot of mobility available on some classes, which doesn't seem to keep pace with the damage/boon/CC reduction that this provides
    • Herald still has a lot of boon production
    • There's also still a lot of projectile hate left from the power creep. Maybe this won't matter, but it does restrict a lot of weapons from being worthwhile.
  • @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    why dont change mirage to "if you pick infinite horizon you have 1 or 2 less clones available? will be better than destroying it with one less dodge

    Probably because they want it to have more risk with the reward of a trait that provides both sustain for the clones and improved dps at the same time
    Ideally Infinite horizon would have been better as a minor trait that always procs clones to perform their ambush attacks but does not let them avoid incoming damage so long as the caster is not stunned

    That should have been how it designed from the start.

    At the moment that trait provides a lot and now players want to come up with ideas to avoid only having 1 dodge yet didnt want other players input months ago and simply always told them to "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"

    3-5 months ago or longer...
    Other profession Players
    Nerf IH it does too much, Mirage should not be able to dodge while stunned.
    Mirage Players
    No its fine just learn 2 play. We have trade off cause we don't roll anymore we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun.

    Currently as of the notes seen above
    Mirage Players
    Just not let us dodge while CC'ed anymore but let us keep the endurance omg! WaHt R u DoInG!
    Other profession Players
    (silence)

    Like for real though i dont really know what to say anet really wants you to have the top level of skill to use this trait it seems is it fair? Prob not.... but was it fair months ago when everyone was trying to say "this is not fair"... no not really

    I think you're letting your grudge against Mirage get the better of you here. You're active enough in game and on the forum to know better.

    "We have trade off cause we don't roll anymore we should be allowed to dodge while stunned."

    I don't know what posts you're reading, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Mirage player" insist that dodging while CC'd remain, let alone is healthy. In fact, quite the opposite. Removing this was probably one of the most common balance suggestions by Mirage mains going back through 2018, and even during pre-PoF feedback.

    The "don't roll anymore" point related to the fact that unlike a standard dodge roll, Mirage Cloak doesn't physically move the player our of harm's way, which can be problematic for getting out of AOEs. It was brought up in regard to the debate over MC's extra duration and the fact that Anet originally made it longer than that of the standard roll to compensate for the lack of movement. Mirages lost that battle anyway when MC got nerfed down to standard dodge roll duration, a duration not even long enough to cover casting most of those dreadful ambushes you hate. This point had nothing to do with dodging while CC'd, which basically everyone agreed doesn't belong.

    "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"
    "we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun."

    I imagine there is some deliberate exaggeration here, but please direct me to any posts in the past year+ where Mirage mains said this. If anything, there have been ongoing discussions about the best way to reign in ambush damage and passive play, some of which I think you even partook in.

    Like, I know you're knowledgeable enough to see that halving endurance is not the way to go, but that old grudge kicks in and you can't express it without kicking a spec while it's down. Everyone has builds they dislike, but misrepresenting the community behind them is rather low in my opinion.

  • Acelidon.1358Acelidon.1358 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    Warrior, Ranger, and Necro, all classes that are extremely potent in this meta. Thanks for proving my point.
    Next.

    Meta is called powercreep. Thanks for trying. Next.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"
    "we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun."

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    I imagine there is some deliberate exaggeration here, but please direct me to any posts in the past year+ where Mirage mains said this. If anything, there have been ongoing discussions about the best way to reign in ambush damage and passive play, some of which I think you even partook in.

    I'm not trying to start an intense back and forth about this ('cause I'm tired) but- He's not wrong Tempest. While there have been a sensible contingent of mesmer mains that recoiled in horror at dodging while CCed (yourself included), there have also been a sizeable group of mesmers pretending like that mechanic is fine. There's definitely hyperbole but keep in mind a lot of us recall these ad nauseum:

    @Omitted said:
    I don't think anyone is really struggling against a Mirage using Infinite Horizon in general anymore unless they're very new to the game. It's just Chaos Vortex really, and with this Anet should just reduce the clone condition output by 50% as they already have with sceptre and axe clones. Chaos Vortex is pretty easy to side-step and has a super obvious cast with a duration of 1 second - which is longer than the Mirage Cloak that must be expended in order to use the skill.

    @Omitted said:
    Well, I agree that the mesmer hate is quite (too) omnipresent, yes. :tongue: Which is a shame since it is my second favourite class. I mean - yes, there are still some issues, but overall I think condi mirage is quite balanced now. It used to be a lot worse, now it is kinda on par with other meta classes.
    They should focus on other points now.

    @Omitted said:
    you realize if a mirage dodges while he's cced that you're the one WINNING from the whole ordeal? because he can't use his stamina to attack you afterwards

    @Omitted said:
    The fact that you can Mirage Cloak while stunned is part of the unique mechanic. You still can't do anything but NOT be hit without the now (useless) Trait, so I see it as fine.

    @Omitted said:
    this whole "QQ MIRAGE CAN DODGE QQ" is so overblown and stupid and one-sided and ill-informed
    __ that's literally the concept of the class __

    @Omitted said:
    other classes can dodge while cced too, it's called break stuns

    Speaking personally, there's definitely a grudge there. I like playing berserker and that matchup is extremely harrowing for me whenever I play it. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a grudge. That being said, it's possible to have a grudge and not want retribution overpaid.
    While making sure the class doesn't get nerfed into oblivion is important (whether or not its an endurance cut), There's a pretty large pool of quotes of mirage players (not necessarily mains, however) thinking everything was fine for a long, long time. Some of these aren't even all that old.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • These changes are great, we'll finally have something closer to skillfull rather than spammy fights. But some pretty important things have never been adressed so far even though they're at the root of many underlying issues regarding the decrease of user base.

    • Fix WvW lags or decrease the player limit per map. I know you have probably run some cost-opportunity analysis and found out it wasn't wasn't worth it... It actually is, I don't play on reset anymore, many leads stopped because blob fights are not an option anymore. Leads are hard to replace, when they quit, it drives the whole population of the server down. Furthermore, AWS solutions are much more flexible than they used to be. I am sure you can work that out.
    • Be much more aggressive on bans for hacks. Do something about it... I still see hackers that I reported months ago with video footage. Slight speed hacks go unnoticed but are too much of an advantage. I also see a lot of obvious hacks , same people teleporting and flying for months. How is this possible? It is not acceptable.
    • Finally, it would be awesome to change the stealth mechanic. I am the first to abuse it because... it is actually broken. It is not only frustrating to play against but a lot of people use speed hacks while in stealth. By the way, if you plan on keeping the stealth mechanic as it is, you should consider nerfing backstab further than that. Just to avoid 10 people core thief ranked games (0 fun tbh).
      Cheers.
  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thoughts:
    -Burn guard with Sage amulet is going to be a crazy big issue.
    -D/D core ele nerfs are laughable.
    -Stealth is a form of sustain, and as such, it should have been reduced commensurate with healing.
    -Warrior may have been deleted, necro may have been deleted, ele was deleted, mesmer may have been deleted.

    I don't really think this is promising, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"
    "we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun."

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    I imagine there is some deliberate exaggeration here, but please direct me to any posts in the past year+ where Mirage mains said this. If anything, there have been ongoing discussions about the best way to reign in ambush damage and passive play, some of which I think you even partook in.

    I'm not trying to start an intense back and forth about this ('cause I'm tired) but- He's not wrong Tempest. While there have been a sensible contingent of mesmer mains that recoiled in horror at dodging while CCed (yourself included), there have also been a sizeable group of mesmers pretending like that mechanic is fine. There's definitely hyperbole but keep in mind a lot of us recall these ad nauseum:

    @Omitted said:
    I don't think anyone is really struggling against a Mirage using Infinite Horizon in general anymore unless they're very new to the game. It's just Chaos Vortex really, and with this Anet should just reduce the clone condition output by 50% as they already have with sceptre and axe clones. Chaos Vortex is pretty easy to side-step and has a super obvious cast with a duration of 1 second - which is longer than the Mirage Cloak that must be expended in order to use the skill.

    @Omitted said:
    Well, I agree that the mesmer hate is quite (too) omnipresent, yes. :tongue: Which is a shame since it is my second favourite class. I mean - yes, there are still some issues, but overall I think condi mirage is quite balanced now. It used to be a lot worse, now it is kinda on par with other meta classes.
    They should focus on other points now.

    @Omitted said:
    you realize if a mirage dodges while he's cced that you're the one WINNING from the whole ordeal? because he can't use his stamina to attack you afterwards

    @Omitted said:
    The fact that you can Mirage Cloak while stunned is part of the unique mechanic. You still can't do anything but NOT be hit without the now (useless) Trait, so I see it as fine.

    @Omitted said:
    this whole "QQ MIRAGE CAN DODGE QQ" is so overblown and stupid and one-sided and ill-informed
    __ that's literally the concept of the class __

    @Omitted said:
    other classes can dodge while cced too, it's called break stuns

    Speaking personally, there's definitely a grudge there. I like playing berserker and that matchup is extremely harrowing for me whenever I play it. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a grudge. That being said, it's possible to have a grudge and not want retribution overpaid.
    While making sure the class doesn't get nerfed into oblivion is important (whether or not its an endurance cut), There's a pretty large pool of quotes of mirage players (not necessarily mains, however) thinking everything was fine for a long, long time. Some of these aren't even all that old.

    Taking a berserker vs mirage as example is like taking a core mes withour stealth vs thief. Mean taking the hard counter as the way to balance isn't the best thing you can do.
    That said the reflexion should be what will be the gameplay and the role of the class post patch ?
    If it's supposed to be a duellist, there is no point having 1 evade to fight around point. It will just lead to condicore passive gameplay at best.
    If it's supposed to +1, the disparition of CS combined with the global lowerage output make me doubts of the viability of the post patch core PU burst.
    If it's supposed to roam, having less sword ambush for mobility didn't help.
    Seeing no changes on boon and utility, there will probably not be boon build or kisscool uiity builds.
    So we will see how global class change impact hte meta but on the paper it look more like a play condi core duellist promise.

  • guys do we have some information on the release date of the patch?

  • @Funkystuff.1563 said:
    guys do we have some information on the release date of the patch?

    It's going to be after the season ends for PVP, so...mayyybe the 25th at the earliest?

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    why dont change mirage to "if you pick infinite horizon you have 1 or 2 less clones available? will be better than destroying it with one less dodge

    Probably because they want it to have more risk with the reward of a trait that provides both sustain for the clones and improved dps at the same time
    Ideally Infinite horizon would have been better as a minor trait that always procs clones to perform their ambush attacks but does not let them avoid incoming damage so long as the caster is not stunned

    That should have been how it designed from the start.

    At the moment that trait provides a lot and now players want to come up with ideas to avoid only having 1 dodge yet didnt want other players input months ago and simply always told them to "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"

    3-5 months ago or longer...
    Other profession Players
    Nerf IH it does too much, Mirage should not be able to dodge while stunned.
    Mirage Players
    No its fine just learn 2 play. We have trade off cause we don't roll anymore we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun.

    Currently as of the notes seen above
    Mirage Players
    Just not let us dodge while CC'ed anymore but let us keep the endurance omg! WaHt R u DoInG!
    Other profession Players
    (silence)

    Like for real though i dont really know what to say anet really wants you to have the top level of skill to use this trait it seems is it fair? Prob not.... but was it fair months ago when everyone was trying to say "this is not fair"... no not really

    I think you're letting your grudge against Mirage get the better of you here. You're active enough in game and on the forum to know better.

    Well do i have a grudge against mirage sure to some extent but so do many other people and with good reasons (most of the time) Those feelings certainly didnt just pop up from no where and while its likely mostly frustration with the players behind the elite some of it is certainly the elite itself. ITs the same on how people felt about scourge really. No amount of nerfing makes people not dislike scourge because of the community damage it caused being broken on release for 2 months.The damage is done and no amount of "nerfing" will make me feel different about mirage in competitive modes. Thats what being imbalanced does. Scourge suffered the same fate. Anet could nerf scourge even more and there would still be people who hold mass grudges against it just because of the damage it caused in a few short months. Mirage has had considerably more time than scourge has had to do its lasting damage which shape how i feel about it so sorry if i dislike it with a passion. Especially when people like to pretended it was fine. There were people who fought for IC mirage as an ok thing too and we know how nasty that got before anet could stop it.

    However!!!! That has nothing to do with what i wrote. I even said that the change was pretty unfair but we can ignore all that i guess :anguished:
    Moving on...

    "We have trade off cause we don't roll anymore we should be allowed to dodge while stunned."

    I don't know what posts you're reading, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Mirage player" insist that dodging while CC'd remain, let alone is healthy. In fact, quite the opposite. Removing this was probably one of the most common balance suggestions by Mirage mains going back through 2018, and even during pre-PoF feedback.

    You might not have said such things but there are people who certainly did say and think its ok and should remain a thing and would happily say "because we dont roll or move as far" as the reasoning as to why its ok and call it a day.

    "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"
    "we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun."

    I imagine there is some deliberate exaggeration here, but please direct me to any posts in the past year+ where Mirage mains said this. If anything, there have been ongoing discussions about the best way to reign in ambush damage and passive play, some of which I think you even partook in.

    Not at all there were people who literally said things like this as part of their argument and if you think it sounds silly then be just as amazed as I was. Ive seen you post in some of the same threads where people were saying such crazy things either you dismissed those post or didn't see them but it was certainly something people liked to say. I dont feel like i need to point out the post to be honest any post that concerns Infinite horizon in the past year will have people who have said such things and those are easy enough to find you dont need me to point them out to you. Not to mention im not going to name call people who said such silly things is likely to just get my comments removed should someone feel the need to report me for doing it so i wont do that.

    Like, I know you're knowledgeable enough to see that halving endurance is not the way to go, but that old grudge kicks in and you can't express it without kicking a spec while it's down. Everyone has builds they dislike, but misrepresenting the community behind them is rather low in my opinion.

    Once again i said it is unfair but i think you missed that because it came at the very end of my post but IH was never fair despite the outcries about it for months on in while anet refused to do anything about it. I think an endurance reduction is not a bad way to go however 50 might be too much. Considering mirrors are still a thing and vigor will still be a thing it wont be impossible at the idea that a mirage still wont be its dodges back fairly quickly.

    Making the caster choose to burn an evasive for defense or offensive pressure is good choice. Note that evades that come with damage has been a major topic for the past few months and IH is one of the biggest offenders of that. I think this might be their attempts to tone down that kind of thing.

    As a certain some one said in a video i watched that what they should do is keep it so that IH reduces max endurance but make it so that taking the trait caps endurance between 60-70 ish meaning you technically still have 1 dodge at any given time but leaves a bit of padding so that endurance restoration options are not totally wasted.
    Also on a side note distortion is the only invuln that does not lock the skill bar which mirage gets to keep.... I think if they looked at this then maybe rolling back IH for different balancing ideas could at least be considered.

    Its not really a misrepresentation of the community either sorry to say. Either this is a shock to you and you honestly have never seen it or you choose not to see it. I suppose at best i could have fixed my wording to say "some mirage players " So that it does not include generally all mirage mains but sorry to say there are other who dont look at things from a reasonable stand point.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    why has rev not equal number of weapons like war or guard?
    would be cool to be in line with our armour companions... beside we only have 3 utilities we cant choose , maybe delete the 4th utility of each category of each class too

  • I would praise the patch notes.... If you actually addressed thiefs concerns about initiative and trickery

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Acelidon.1358 said:

    Based on your response to their response, I can tell you're probably a player that was carried by how broken ranger and gazelle was.
    Back to silver with you boi.

    I play warrior, ranger and necro with a focus on warrior, and I use smokescale and sparrow on ranger so youre wrong on both counts, sorry to disappoint :( try reading what the conversation is about before jumping in spouting nonsense

    Warrior, Ranger, and Necro, all classes that are extremely potent in this meta. Thanks for proving my point.
    Next.

    Ghos i would like to point out that necro is only potent because you have people running around dripping with perma boon ;)
    Core is the only option which has strong boon hate that can consistently be used going in solo without a buddy too. so......

    No doubt necro will be strong post these on paper patch notes and i think thats something people will have a hard time getting use to is it actually living up to its durable name as damage soaking becomes more viable with damage evasion or damage blocking which it has 0 access too. At least necro will have less boon corrupt while others also have less perma boon.

    My prediction is that after the patch necro will be less effective with boon corruption due to boons being not only shorter in duration but in lesser amounts and boon corruption also being toned down across the board. But they will be tougher than people are use to using shroud to soak damage while others still use blocks / evades as part of their sustain. The reduction in outgoing damage and in some cases removal of damage on cc will allow shroud to work as its intended sustain mechanic. Rather than people melting it like a hot knife through butter.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    why dont change mirage to "if you pick infinite horizon you have 1 or 2 less clones available? will be better than destroying it with one less dodge

    Probably because they want it to have more risk with the reward of a trait that provides both sustain for the clones and improved dps at the same time
    Ideally Infinite horizon would have been better as a minor trait that always procs clones to perform their ambush attacks but does not let them avoid incoming damage so long as the caster is not stunned

    That should have been how it designed from the start.

    At the moment that trait provides a lot and now players want to come up with ideas to avoid only having 1 dodge yet didnt want other players input months ago and simply always told them to "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"

    3-5 months ago or longer...
    Other profession Players
    Nerf IH it does too much, Mirage should not be able to dodge while stunned.
    Mirage Players
    No its fine just learn 2 play. We have trade off cause we don't roll anymore we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun.

    Currently as of the notes seen above
    Mirage Players
    Just not let us dodge while CC'ed anymore but let us keep the endurance omg! WaHt R u DoInG!
    Other profession Players
    (silence)

    Like for real though i dont really know what to say anet really wants you to have the top level of skill to use this trait it seems is it fair? Prob not.... but was it fair months ago when everyone was trying to say "this is not fair"... no not really

    I think you're letting your grudge against Mirage get the better of you here. You're active enough in game and on the forum to know better.

    Well do i have a grudge against mirage sure to some extent but so do many other people and with good reasons (most of the time) Those feelings certainly didnt just pop up from no where and while its likely mostly frustration with the players behind the elite some of it is certainly the elite itself. ITs the same on how people felt about scourge really. No amount of nerfing makes people not dislike scourge because of the community damage it caused being broken on release for 2 months.The damage is done and no amount of "nerfing" will make me feel different about mirage in competitive modes. Thats what being imbalanced does. Scourge suffered the same fate. Anet could nerf scourge even more and there would still be people who hold mass grudges against it just because of the damage it caused in a few short months. Mirage has had considerably more time than scourge has had to do its lasting damage which shape how i feel about it so sorry if i dislike it with a passion. Especially when people like to pretended it was fine. There were people who fought for IC mirage as an ok thing too and we know how nasty that got before anet could stop it.

    However!!!! That has nothing to do with what i wrote. I even said that the change was pretty unfair but we can ignore all that i guess :anguished:
    Moving on...

    "We have trade off cause we don't roll anymore we should be allowed to dodge while stunned."

    I don't know what posts you're reading, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Mirage player" insist that dodging while CC'd remain, let alone is healthy. In fact, quite the opposite. Removing this was probably one of the most common balance suggestions by Mirage mains going back through 2018, and even during pre-PoF feedback.

    You might not have said such things but there are people who certainly did say and think its ok and should remain a thing and would happily say "because we dont roll or move as far" as the reasoning as to why its ok and call it a day.

    "just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"
    "we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun."

    I imagine there is some deliberate exaggeration here, but please direct me to any posts in the past year+ where Mirage mains said this. If anything, there have been ongoing discussions about the best way to reign in ambush damage and passive play, some of which I think you even partook in.

    Not at all there were people who literally said things like this as part of their argument and if you think it sounds silly then be just as amazed as I was. Ive seen you post in some of the same threads where people were saying such crazy things either you dismissed those post or didn't see them but it was certainly something people liked to say. I dont feel like i need to point out the post to be honest any post that concerns Infinite horizon in the past year will have people who have said such things and those are easy enough to find you dont need me to point them out to you. Not to mention im not going to name call people who said such silly things is likely to just get my comments removed should someone feel the need to report me for doing it so i wont do that.

    Like, I know you're knowledgeable enough to see that halving endurance is not the way to go, but that old grudge kicks in and you can't express it without kicking a spec while it's down. Everyone has builds they dislike, but misrepresenting the community behind them is rather low in my opinion.

    Once again i said it is unfair but i think you missed that because it came at the very end of my post but IH was never fair despite the outcries about it for months on in while anet refused to do anything about it. I think an endurance reduction is not a bad way to go however 50 might be too much. Considering mirrors are still a thing and vigor will still be a thing it wont be impossible at the idea that a mirage still wont be its dodges back fairly quickly.

    Making the caster choose to burn an evasive for defense or offensive pressure is good choice. Note that evades that come with damage has been a major topic for the past few months and IH is one of the biggest offenders of that. I think this might be their attempts to tone down that kind of thing.

    As a certain some one said in a video i watched that what they should do is keep it so that IH reduces max endurance but make it so that taking the trait caps endurance between 60-70 ish meaning you technically still have 1 dodge at any given time but leaves a bit of padding so that endurance restoration options are not totally wasted.
    Also on a side note distortion is the only invuln that does not lock the skill bar which mirage gets to keep.... I think if they looked at this then maybe rolling back IH for different balancing ideas could at least be considered.

    Its not really a misrepresentation of the community either sorry to say. Either this is a shock to you and you honestly have never seen it or you choose not to see it. I suppose at best i could have fixed my wording to say "some mirage players " So that it does not include generally all mirage mains but sorry to say there are other who dont look at things from a reasonable stand point.

    If you want to have a discussion about CI, why it suddendly become op and why a mAt during this time should have highligh the weakness of this, I'm all yours.
    For you and Twilight and Azure, It look fun to denigrate people by implying they didn't understand anything but don't play too much with the 'I'm on the good side, other are evils" because we can look at the details to remove smoke around it like we already did on past discussions. If you want to pull a l2p discussion here we go but it's not me who will start it.

    Basically, everytime I see a top streamer whinning about mirage and mesmer and how op/cheesy it is, I'm always smiling because they are unable to perform with it, so come the argument of "I don't play it because it's cheesy" (not ofc because what they play currently give more tools lol.). Mean guys who did the effort of playing the class before complaining to prove something are at the number of 3...
    All other whines are :
    1) Sheep who listen to their favorite streamer who cry about something op while no being able to play it.
    2) Plebs who want to be the king of duel/+1/aoe all in one.
    3) Plebs who get lose in clones.

    I only saw a good ladder mesmer representation during the phantasm rework before they nerf it.
    Meanwhile there were seasons with plethora of other class complaining about mesmers while camping at top stats.

    Now you know what ?
    Next mirage patch is fine ? Ok, let's play a game then, show me how you will perform with it with screenshot/vids when the patch is out.
    You know, bring proves of what you said. And I will be pretty happy like other mesmers to admit that we were wrong. B)

  • Loving what I see. The general direction is great !
    The chaos that will come with such a huge amount of changes is inevitable. Just gotta embrace it.
    I prefer to see it as a build-crafty wonderland, and I am really stoked for that time !

    One somewhat general concern I would like to voice here is:
    Power Damage, Condition Damage, and Heal are getting nerfed to counter the powercreep that has been happening over the year.
    Another Powercreep that has been happening is Mobility.
    Now, if we nerf damage and healing, I believe it will boost the importance, and the impact of Mobility, and I believe it should be toned down as well.
    Otherwise, I see stealth and mobility prevail more than it should.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:
    If you want to pull a l2p discussion here we go but it's not me who will start it.

    Hard Pass Viquing
    Im not doing this with you.

    • 1 i dont have the time for it
    • 2 this is not the place for it
    • 3 back and forth argument (specifically with you) give me headaches
    • 4 you wont agree with me and i wont agree with you regardless of what i type.

    Ive already said i think the change is pretty unfair but without a doubt it could be still technically going in the right direction considered.

    There is an old saying...
    If you throw a rock into a pack of wolves the one that howls in the one you hit.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    If you want to pull a l2p discussion here we go but it's not me who will start it.

    Hard Pass Viquing
    Im not doing this with you.

    • 1 i dont have the time for it
    • 2 this is not the place for it
    • 3 back and forth argument (specifically with you) give me headaches
    • 4 you wont agree with me and i wont agree with you regardless of what i type.

    Ive already said i think the change is pretty unfair but without a doubt it could be still technically going in the right direction considered.

    There is an old saying...
    If you throw a rock into a pack of wolves the one that howls in the one you hit.

    Yeah it's boring to see this endless factual things from the same guys forever, I all agree with you about how boring it will be, just remember that there is people here who will pop when you pull them. Because random guys who take their dream as facts (again when we ask for proves, there is nobody.) make me mad.