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Balance Patch Preview - WvW

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  • LEAVE ALL OF THAT CHANGES IN PVP. WVW IS GOING TO SUFFER. NOBODY WILL DIE ANYMORE, REMEMBER YOU STILL HAVE THE KITTEN FOODS AND UTILITY BUFFERS.

  • Frax.4562Frax.4562 Member
    edited January 31, 2020

    Wind of Disenchantment still needs some look at, nerfing the target cap is a move in the good direction, but it won't change the meta for smaller groups. Big groups can just run in with warriors still and perma chain bubble on them giving no counter play to it. Should just reduce the range of the skill, so you have more space to move around it, or make it castable on the ground instead of chanelled aroud the caster

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @RedBaron.6058 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @RedBaron.6058 said:
    Classes are so different in GW2 that applying the same damage reduction across the board is a bad idea.

    I just hope that enough people remain playing this lovely game through this new balance and iteration process...

    You are right, but this was, for once, exactly what was advertised to its pretty pointless to get all riled up right now.

    I also believe it was something that needed to be done. I just hope they succeed within a reasonable timeframe so that people have no objective reason to be riled up. If some people then subjectively goes off the rails, well that's on them. If people couldn't see this comming they have not been paying attention.

    ANet needs to create 3 algorithms - PvE, PvP and WvW - to balance all classes considering a number of factors like Damage, Mitigation, CC, Mobility, Healing, etc.

    For example, the value of mobility is different in PvE, WvW and PvP.

    And if Damage is what ANet wants to reduce, then they need to balance the other factors to compensate across classes.

    Well they are doing that. I mean, if you look at what the first post says and then just browse over the changes you can draw some very crude conclusions in that they are slashing down all healing further than all damage. They are removing all damage coefficiency from heavy CC skills. They are giving boons and cleanses similar treatment around a 0.5 slash in stacks and durations along with increased cooldowns.

    They are giving alot of the conditions a treatment of balancing out stacks versus uptimes with fewer stacks and longer uptimes (hopefully they couple this with some look at scaling, which I have no read anything about yet). So boons are getting a heavier slash than 0.5 combined on average. Conditions are getting less of a slash than 0.5 from the few classes I've looked at so far (builds I enjoy myself). Cleanses seem to get similar treatment as boons with both stacking and cooldown changes. There is very little mentioned about rips and CC. They are putting big immunity utilities on 5min cd.

    So a (again super crude and sweeping) estimate summary on balance issues would be:

    Tank > Damage > Healing
    Conditions > Cleanses
    CC > Breaks
    Rips > Boons
    Condition > Power damage* Note: I don't mean it will be better, I mean it will lose comparatively less.

    Condition pressure > Condition burst
    Foreseeable control issues = favours ranged play
    Increased base tanks = favours melee play
    Decreased healing = favours supplementation with fields
    Power pressure > Power burst
    Scalability issues with CC and conditions (damage and soft CC)* This is an urgent possible post-drop issue to address given the past 2-3 years.

    I'm not going to go deeper into it than those very broad and not always entirely accurate remarks. It is up to you and your guilds to figure things out for yourselves B) .

  • Arctisavange.7261Arctisavange.7261 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @LINKAZZATORE.8135 said:

    @Vova.2640 said:
    This is a joke right? These patch notes cannot be serious...
    Everyone will run full trailblazer/dire now because power wont do any dmg whatsoever.

    If this patch goes live its actually be the final blow that will kill the game mode...

    When we complain about wvw balance, we are not talking about the power coefficients (in majority of the cases at least) we are talking about some classes being able to do a lot while others offer nothing to their groups.

    These changes ARE HORRIBLE.
    What you will create is every group will not run:
    2 minstrel Firebrands,
    2-3 trailblazer scourges
    1 Spellbreaker.

    Diversity will DIE completely.

    Also. Why would you lower EVERY CC down to 0.01 co-eff?????
    Different CCs fill in different purposes.
    All this does is that it will make some forms of CC completely worthless because there will no point to use them since there will always a better one.

    idk.
    I think you need reconsider this.
    For once, admit you might be wrong and actually reconsider before you push something like this.....

    no you won't because scrapper's purity of purpose still has no icd, their cleanses didn't get touched.

    these changes are gonna do the exact opposite of killing the game, they will kitten change it after 2 and half years of firebrand scourge spellbreaker weaver filling 90% of map slots.

    Guardian cleanses got nerfed and having no cooldown on Purity of purpose isnt a solution to upcoming condition meta. Why? Cause the condition re appliance rate is crazy strong right now and wont be much weaker after the patch.
    If we were to go on a full condition blob right now then the condition appliance rate is 2-3x higher compared to what scrappers and firebrands can clear atm. Power creep is stronger for now so thats why we arent on condi meta.
    After the condi cleanse nerf and condition stack appliance mini nerf, it will not be enough. If they want to make it work then they have to boost up condi cleanses or nerf condi appliance rate even harder.

  • Chronomancer shatters need something to be viable for wvw. Clones die instantly during fights and this makes continuum split incredibly inconsistent. Mesmer just doesn't have a spot in large scale fights at all after all the changes.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • I am wondering dmg gething lower healing gething lower what about health bars and armor? Won't the fights become super slow and tanky?

  • When we complain about wvw balance, we are not talking about the power coefficients (in majority of the cases at least) we are talking about some classes being able to do a lot while others offer nothing to their groups.

    These changes ARE HORRIBLE.
    What you will create is every group will not run:
    2 minstrel Firebrands,
    2-3 trailblazer scourges
    1 Spellbreaker.

    Diversity will DIE completely.

    All of this!

    WvW is actually more like PvE than PvP, so the balance should actually lean towards that. We do large scale fights. I mean we use kitten food and utility buffers kitten. It’s more fast paced than structured PvP so ‘some’ imbalance is necessary.

    We need to diversify the roles of other classes in this game.

  • Gryxis.6950Gryxis.6950 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fantasylife.7981 said:
    So nerf everything and ruin 7 years of balance in 1 day kekw..... the problem that hasnt been fix is that mesmer has 5 clones 3 active. So game will remain unbalance.

    No need to worry everything that is not core mesmer will be as good as deleted after this patch

  • Shield Master: Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 1 second LUL

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

    No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

    TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

    This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

    Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Arctisavange.7261Arctisavange.7261 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

    No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

    TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

    This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

    Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

    Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    I want to tell you guys a story about a weapon and its skills. The class is Mesmer, and the weapon is scepter. Once upon a time, it was a niche weapon that most people overlooked, because lets be honest, there were far better options out there. It had been balanced since launch to act a hybrid weapon, you could run it as condi, power, or hybrid. At a certain point, Anet notices that this one weapon on Mesmer isn't getting used by any meaningful number of players in any game mode. They take its highest power damage skill and buff it by 25% (a fairly huge change to a single skill) while also giving it an additional strike (which means an additional confusion stack). Throughout that balance period, people start realizing that high power damage builds can kill other high power damage builds with a single use of this skill, and hybrid builds can deal obscene amounts of damage with it while being fairly tanky. The Mesmer meta in pvp shifts heavily towards this weapon. On the next balance patch, knowing that they screwed up by overbuffing this skill, Anet nerfs it by 50% (twice as much as it was just buffed the previous patch). As a consolation prize, they give an extra clone to the block (but also raise its cooldown in wvw). Now, despite this weapon having been slightly underperforming before this whole debacle, its significantly worse instead of slightly better. Its use drops even further, essentially relegated to staff scepter/torch IH full condi braindead spam WvW roaming builds. Before this whole thing, there were a small number of players who greatly enjoyed power scepter despite it not being as strong as GS builds. It was an alternative playstyle. So, the question is. Now that Anet is reducing power coefficients across the board, what makes sense? A.) Nerf scepter's power coefficients to a similar degree as something like GS, resulting in scepter being just as underperforming as before this upcoming patch. B.) Nerf scepter's power coefficients to a lesser degree as something like GS, achieving balance. According to this preview, option A.) made more sense to the Devs.

  • Arctisavange.7261Arctisavange.7261 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    Additionally given that boon duration is getting hard nerfed, its good for offensive boons but for defensive boons like specially for stability, we are gona be thrown back to full blown pirateship with condition meta. Feels 2017 man.

  • I think I like the overall direction but it should be made sure that conditions don't become to strong.
    Right now Burn-guardians are already a quite strong burstbuild if they hit at the right time. With the (maybe) upcoming condition-meta it might be even harder to cleanse the burning-stacks if they are coverd by other conditions before they kill you.
    Also Burn-guardians kill siege very fast right now because it can be hard to cleanse the siege before it get's destroyed.

    Also we need a very good look at the thief portal. It's currently way to strong for a thief to hide in certain objects(esp. on desert borderlands where the "reveal after capture" is kinda bugged and doesn't cover the keeps completely).

  • Hello A-net i find it good that you want to bring some balance into Guild Wars 2. But i think the way you're doing this is wrong. Nerfing power classes okay you do it to every class mhhh at some points it's good at others not. My main argument against is that WvW used to be a fast mode were you had quick fights (or some long if you fought a worthy opponent) with all this nerfs this is gone. Besides only nerfing power which is at many points WEAKER then condition damage is really bad. Most Players will play condi and power will die out in (besides some nice players). You can take a tank equipment and pressure your oppenent with a lot of condis or you play power have to manage more stats with you're gear and deals way less damage then the condi player. In my brain this makes zero sence. That's why i advice to overthink some of the changes(espacially nerfing condi more!!!!) and using your brain to create us a future where we can have fun in this game.

  • i have no idea yet, what this is going to be in field. but for example, (after a not very detailed reading since it's post 2am and some beer here) prime light beam (holo) power coefficient drop from 3.0 to 0,01? so we toss that elite simply, because that's never ever worth even firing on anybody... and do condi-trash gets their nerf too? i didn't catch that, but most dmg-nerfs look from afar a bit directed towards power)

  • Acheron.4731Acheron.4731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Warrior rifle for sale!
    Like new, hardly used since Aug 30th. Great condition, just one small scratch on the stock. Will upload pics later.
    5 gold OBO
    Will ship for free or you can arrange pick-up if you live nearby.

    Don't Worry, My Dutch is OK

  • I really dont believe anet reads anything in their own thread. Experience in this forum has shown multiple times that the more new topics players make about specific concerns, the more attention those issues will get.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    i have no idea yet, what this is going to be in field. but for example, (after a not very detailed reading since it's post 2am and some beer here) prime light beam (holo) power coefficient drop from 3.0 to 0,01? so we toss that elite simply, because that's never ever worth even firing on anybody... and do condi-trash gets their nerf too? i didn't catch that, but most dmg-nerfs look from afar a bit directed towards power)

    It has a 5 target unblockable launch effect, all the control skills have had their damage reduced, it also was reduced from 60 to 40s cooldown to compensate.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • anonymous.7812anonymous.7812 Member ✭✭✭

    One thing that's concerning: nerfs to the revive skills -- but Warclaw can still stomp. Please remove that ability from Warclaw, it encourages people to not play, but to wait for downs sitting on their kitty.

  • I'll get right to the elephant in the room, after reading...yea, everything lol; speaking mostly to wvw here.

    The changes towards how things work like warrior rifle seem great, but the damage nerfs are way, and I mean WAY too heavy handed.

    You'd be better off throwing out all these coefficients and just scaling back existing ones by something like 15% to start.

    The current frustration mostly revolves around people getting essentially one-shot. There is no point in stacking excess support because all the support in the game won't save you from dieing to focused damage. You also force everyone onto FB with these changes, because FB has what is necessary for the game mode to work. Nerfing FB or other supports is the polar opposite of what you need to do. I'm not saying buff FB, but you need to give other supports more stab/usability/boon access overall. By nerfing support aspects (including heal, cleanse, stab durations, cooldowns etc) you encourage people to NOT engage in fights unless they have their cooldowns, or when they've used them, just full run.

    By trimming back some damage and buffing non-fb supports in aspects that make them relevant, you would...
    a) stop people from getting bursted down so easily
    b) make fights last longer, for more counterplay, comebacks, and fun overall (we don't play to run back across the map, see Desert BL...)
    c) create more class variety
    d) give people more of a reason to actually readily engage in fights

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    Increase condition cleanse choices slightly, and reduce condition damage per second by a third, but in turn give them 50% extra duration. Or similar.

    And btw before guys so many classes could just kill you in 1-3 seconds full life, repeatedly, power dmg nerfed 33%+, it's not like now you can't do any damage you know..

  • Did they nerf retaliation? CBA to read every class'es changes.

    Look like ranger will still be unwanted in wvw generally and with even less utility.

    Staff ele looks to have little to no purpose with the number of targets for heals and co efficients nerfed into the ground.

    Oh well, let's see how it all settles down - remember to post on forums screenshots of all those one shots after the balance patch (has the patch stopped the macro combo thief instant downed chain, or just made it even more effective as your counters are all on longer cool downs...). Then maybe in a year or so they will adjust damage and add in an internal cooldown so some classes can't chain hit 7 times in 0.1 seconds...

    Looking forward to see how it pans out.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Vova.2640 said:
    This is a joke right? These patch notes cannot be serious...
    Everyone will run full trailblazer/dire now because power wont do any dmg whatsoever.

    If this patch goes live its actually be the final blow that will kill the game mode...

    The opposite will happen. You underestimate the hybrid damage your so called condi builds are doing.

    Cleanses were not touched. Heals are nerfed. Some condi skills and traits are nerfed (e.g. dhuumfire burn duration lowered from 3 to 1 second).

    Did you see the mirage cloak nerf in the notes?
    When was the last time a trailblazer scourge was a threat to you? This build is a joke right now!

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    hammer rev, thief, and scourge are done.
    reaper is heavily nerfed.
    ranger and mes nothing important changed.
    tempest loses 10 targets, otherwise just number adjustments for ele.
    warrior is now split: berserker for damage, spb for CC/boonrip/support.
    both dps and heal scrapper stay the same.
    support fb gutted, dps fb and dh are... buffed?

  • This patch is a shame.. permastealth DE will be immortal, roaming is completly death and full trailblaizer/dire build will be the only meta playable..
    You can't do worse, really.

    With this patch WvW will definitively killed: what will last will be only commanders karma train.