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  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Vova.2640 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Lamers group trying to win with overperformance sturdiness will do that, yes... like they do it now.....

    Stop thinkin in meta, cause atm there isnt build diversity either.

    You're kidding right.................
    Everyone wants to win. meta exists for a reason... because it is what is THE BEST currently.
    If you enjoy losing fights and dying.... then run w.e you want.
    but guess what, most people want to win and will run whatever BS they are forced to run in order to win.
    This is a problem that ANET creates and leaves people with no choice but to follow it.

    Metas exist for less for performce and more for team strategie(wich in gw2 is the oposite), if u played gw1 gvg or pvp u would understand that overperformance was only oobtained by a decent team using certain metas while alot of guild would fail to play meta if they were not good, in gw2 any on estacking aoe for overperformace can be good, reason everythign has to go down 1st, Cal if i remember said it will be a long process.

    On gw1 wich in terms of skill and balance is a far far superior game, each guild used diferent metas, as in idiferent team setups according to wath strategie they would use to reach enemy lord on each GH, meta in gw2 are directly towards words like damage output/sustain/stack/overperformance.

    Being the best meta the same as saying best gimick compositions(wich by all means is what it is in gw2, on decent pvp games this is an ilusion.

    Note: i dont agree will all changes but its something that has to be done, and restart over cause in 7 years we never had a thoughtful balance towards real players skills, all we had was changing overperformance from one class to another or form one weapon to another.

    @Vova.2640 i do fear that overtankiness can still hapen, but players will have to test stuff over time 1st, meybe more zerker axe warriors, hammers, i would bet in a mixture of the 2012 metas with the scourging/scrapper carry we have atm.

    Ministrel stats could get its vitality removed :\ into precision

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    If you think they do not cleanse or provide condition immunity (not registered in arc fyi) through correct application of resistance then you must be playing with your eyes closed and your brain off. It won't be the top 3 cleansing players but below that when played by people who use skills they make up a significant part of a groups cleansing and double firebrand played by anyone who isn't a potato can more than keep up with condition application.

    Sure Chap 4 is nice and all for resistance. But we weren't talking about resistance, we were talking about cleansing. Resistance can be corrupted and counter-played, cleansing can not, which Firebrand is so low cleansing in comparison to say a tempest or a scrapper.

    Think of it this way... If you are fighting a condi-blob, you are fighting against corruption...where resistance will get stripped instantly and turned into a condition that you need to cleanse... If you think firebrand is what's holding that play-style at bay, then i don't know what to tell you.

    2 things.

    1. Pulsing 1s resistance is as good as cleansing. Do you know why? Because you get to not suffer the penalties of the conditions. This is honestly not a basic concept that should need explaining. Whether you permanently remove the condition or differ it's effects to a period of time where the enemy cannot benefit from it's application is the same thing in effect.
    2. You're comparing FB built for healing to 2 class/build combinations that are set up to cleanse primarily and built from the ground up to do so. FB outheals both these classes or should if not played by a brain damaged monkey, however we don't turn round and ignore the amount of healing tempest and scrapper both contribute to the group simply because they come behind FB. Likewise we shouldn't ignore the amount of cleanses FB contributes and it can contribute more if it drops MI in favour of group cleanses like purging flames which will depend on how much they nerf healing on MI etc. I would still expect FB to come further down the cleanse list though because 10 target literally doubles your cleansing power however I don't think it would be needed.

    You clearly don't have arcdps up or you're not asking your guildies how much they heal man. scrapper and tempest are putting out 2x the cleansing and 2.5x the healing fb does very consistently. Get with the times lol

    and as for 'no one uses condi builds because cleansing is too high'...

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The difference is now you can't spam your cleanses and it'll be OK. Cleanse Tempest will still heal well and provide great AoE cleansing power.

    If you have problems with conditions in the new meta it's probably you or the guy next to you that's playing badly and got too used to spamming skills and winning because that's how the game has been for the last 5 boring, tooth pulling years of expansion power creep.

    TLDR: git gud scrubs.

    Alot of players that are getting carried with the current "meta gimick" will cry so hard... i just fear they all will try to play full tank useless stacking group.

    Players need to understand they will have to bet more stats in the outcame of their build rather than be allrounder overperformancing the players skils.

    Direct damage will still exist... i dont know where most are QQ. :\

    Altough i can understan utility CD geting heviear, but on weapons most CD's should not be touched imo.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • santenal.1054santenal.1054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    Random changes to damage numbers, Random changes to sustain, Random changes to many things that dont even need changing, ... This way of "balancing" is much too chaotic and it serves no purpose other than to waste time and throw away any reference point one could use to do actual responsible balancing.
    When you take away so much and give almost nothing intresting in return ( like bug fixes, clunky mechanic fixes, ...) you'll end up angering much more people than you are pleasing.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The difference is now you can't spam your cleanses and it'll be OK. Cleanse Tempest will still heal well and provide great AoE cleansing power.

    If you have problems with conditions in the new meta it's probably you or the guy next to you that's playing badly and got too used to spamming skills and winning because that's how the game has been for the last 5 boring, tooth pulling years of expansion power creep.

    TLDR: git gud scrubs.

    Alot of players that are getting carried with the current "meta gimick" will cry so hard... i just fear they all will try to play full tank useless stacking group.

    Players need to understand they will have to bet more stats in the outcame of their build rather than be allrounder overperformancing the players skils.

    Direct damage will still exist... i dont know where most are QQ. :\

    That they are trying to balance cc "gimick" with dmg something comply out side of the counter play to cc. All self stab is getting nerfed and support stab is now stronger then what a player can give to them self.

    That and anet lied just updating numbers is NOT realty looking at 500 ish skills its more just doing a genal dmg % update something that could of been dont by updating dmg taken by players.

    It will not exist sadly condi will be the only effect that will work after the update unless they nerf it just as hard BUT they also need to update def / hp of the base classes as well.

    Anet is updating every thing the same they are not doing the fine tuning they need to do to fix the balancing. They need to update the game more then just simply messing with the numbers there needs to be real effects added and removed to fix balancing in wvw. That is how you fix your "meta gimick" no number update will fix that.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    Huh. Well. That's something.
    I could understand toning down the power damage of soulbeasts, but the nerfs to druid, condition ranger and weapon skills I've pretty much never seen in the gamemode (mainhand dagger?) make me raise an eyebrow.
    ... but then I started reading into the next profession down, thief, and realized the exact same thing is happening across the board.

    This patch will basically force people into more defensive gear as power will have substantially less of an impact and people will want to bulk up as their sustain is taking an impact, too. Zerg fights will go on longer as spike damage will be more difficult to achieve, and it'll be more difficult for roamers to kill each other which gives an advantage to the higher-mobility-and-stealth-based hit-and-run specs, (not to mention condition builds).

    All of those 0.01 damage coefficients make me lol.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger, Necromancer, Fort Aspenwood.

  • primatos.5413primatos.5413 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe .. wait til patch drops .. then try how this all is working out .. think .. give feedback ..

  • Please leave stability and condi cleanse nerf alone. If you nerf those then we are gona hit full scale pirateship with condition meta.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    Condition tank meta will be an issue in WvW

    • 4 stat sets need to de-powercreep over the 3 stat sets. The 4 stat sets should not provide extra point stats, for example Marauder should not have provided more points than Berseker+Valquiria set, different distribution of the points already make difference enough.
    • Conditions need to be nerfed its coeficients damage in WvW. Thus the burst side of conditions is mitigated.

    [Ranger]

    The nerfs applied are in line with the rest of classes no complains there. Unfortunately the changes made will not fix the core limitations and issues of the ranger As such the class will keep the actual builds with no much shake up. Core pets are still trash tier.
    Ranger class lacks a total clear direction and definition ending up with a convoluted mess of traits and skills which makes the ranger very unrewarding to play.

    Core pain points in WvW

    • Soulbeast has access to two stability skills in the all game. Both now are over the 60s CD which will force the boonbeast meme even further.
    • Druid has no squad use neither is viable for roaming.
    • Rangers in general do have no use for an squad. Spirits, Stances and Druid could have been the solution yet the opportunity is wasted.
    • Pets results are binary. Only 2 pets are used because are the ones which work constintely against other players, none of which works at all against other groups.

    Proposed additional changes

    • Baseline all ranger projectiles have 100% chance to trigger combo fields.
    • Ranger needs a deep dive and a full rework as all the 2012 mechanics and skills are very outdated and out of place.

    To improve the uses of ranger in squad:

    • Spirits unbound old trait needs to be back somehow, this will help to create squad builds. Change the spirits models to astral wisp model to reduce the visual noise.
    • Spirits actives are redefined as a ranged AoE, so they travel as projectiles and then released entering the spirit into full CD.
    • Glyph of stars need to change mechanically to apply its actual effects with the Glyph of unity mechanics so it uses tethers instead ranged AoE.
    • Glyph of Empowerment needs to return, but using the actual Glyph of starts mechanic so allies inside the ranged AoE get the additional damage boost.
    • Leader of the pack to share 100% of the stance duration with allies.
    • Bring back the hot beta lingering light trait (orbiting wisp healing close by allies)

    To make possible hybrid builds in WvW:

    • Shortbow need to have the old range of 1200 returned so condi builds may be viable in WvW. Remove the requirement for flanking so applies the longer\stronger condition durations always. Projectiles splinter on impact (same as the underwater harpoon splinter shot) applying the shorter durations to up to 2 additional targets in an small aoe. Projectiles do not pierce anymore.
    • Light on your feet: Increase the splinter radius to 360 and add 2 additional targets. Remove all the other effects.
    • Sharpened edges moved to be a minor of the traitline.
    • Hidden barbs add 100% chance to sharpened edges to trigger additionally to existing effects.

    To improve build variety:

    • All the sources of cleanses are in WS traitline, it needs better redistribution: Empathic Bond to be placed to BM trainline, use the PvE version in WvW.
    • BM is too good for Soulbeast: BM bonus stats to pets are made baseline to all ranger pets. This traitline do not provide additional Stat points to beastmode.
    • Strength of the pack is too expensive for an elite and at the same time much better than other elites. Move it to utility skill so has to compite with other utilities. Reduce CD to 60s.
    • Search and Rescue is too underwhelming under the last nerfs. Return range to 1200, increase CD to 75s, move it to elite skill.
    • Doylak stance is too overbloated. Remove the damage reduction, leave the CD as 45s in WvW and sPvP.
    • Bear stance is underwhelming, low and very situational healing. Include Doylak's damage reduction, keep CD as the new 30s so it can be an actual alternative to Other healing.

    To improve weapons

    Axe OH after the nerfs will be gutted. This weapon was used for the damage it brought, without it the weapon brings nothing. This smalls changes to utility would make the weapon desirable again against groups.

    • Axe OH Path of scars: Increase the AoE Radius so it's easier to hit moving targets. Increase the pull distance.
    • Axe OH whirling defense: Add reduced movement speed while channeling the skill.

    Dagger OH is not used due to the underwhelming skills, the additional evade is sometimes used still it could be used better with a bit more utility to stick to target and interrupt capabilities so it can become a roamer weapon.

    • Dagger OH Crippling talon, shadow step the ranger to target if it hits.
    • Dagger OH Stalker's strike: Add 1s daze

    Dagger MH is not used due to the lack of utility in the weapon.

    • Dagger MH Double arc : Remove 1 boon by hit.
    • Dagger MH Instictive engage : Add evade to that skill.

    Shortbow lacks range, damage pressure and utility. This changes should make the weapon usable and make hybrid builds possible in wvw and at the same time bring limited AoE to the ranger so it can have an spot in squad.

    • Ranged returned to 1200
    • All flanking requirements are removed, all skills apply the flanking effects as baseline.
    • Poison voley do not pierce anymore.
    • All projectiles from the shortbow stagger on impact, up to 2 enemies within 180 radius of the target are impacted.
    • Effects from the projectile splinters apply the actual direct effects from the shortbow (crossfire causes 1s bleeding, Confusion shot dazes...)

    To improve core pets:

    • All pets need to have the F2(beast ability) with a primary focus in utility:
    • Canines create fields when casting the Houls, PbAoE conditions last longer.
    • Felines gain stealth on F2 same as jaguar. Each feline apply an short additional effects the next few attacks. Cheeta F2 is reworked and Savana strike replace its bite skill.
    • Drakes have better cleave in all attacks, all attacks impact up to 3 targets.
    • Moas F2 create domes which block projectiles additionally.
    • Birds F2 also grant quickness and superspeed to the pet.
    • Devourers get faster projectiles, same speed as britleback. F2 become ranged AoEs to impact multiple targets.
    • Spiders projectiles stagger on impact in an small AoE to affect up to 3 targets.

    Pets autoattacks - beast abilities.

    • Canines, Felines, pigs, birds, need a close gap skill.
    • All felines remove the Bite for pounce, Cheeta uses Savana strike instead.
    • Canines speed up animation on crippling leap and takes all the ranges from soulbeast counterparts.
    • Pigs get increased range on Maul, in pet skill and beastmode skill.
    • Birds get the beastmode skill equivalents, gains swoop leap.
    • Single target ranged pets need faster projectiles speed.

    Pets defined roles

    • Pets are a mess with confusing and underwhelming skills, they don't seems to be organized in any way and new pets with no defined families push the confusion even further.
    • Canines should provide AoE utility, combo fields. Off tank melee pet (stats from smokescale). Average point in stats.
    • Felines off-dps melee dps pet. Higher dps than canines, less HP and Toughness.
    • Birds glass dps melee pet. Highest dps low hp and toughness. Access to quickness and superspeed.
    • Drakes tank AoE. High HP. Low damage Long reach AoE F2 focus to play against groups of players.
    • Bears tank selfish. Ideally this pet can work as an hp sponge with high resistance and easy self regeneration. Low dps.
    • Porcines selfish support and heals.
    • Moas AoE support and heals.
    • Spiders ranged AoE pets for ranged combat against groups.
    • Devourers ranged dps pet. Increase range of Devourer retreat to 900 in pet skill and beastmode skill to allow better use.

    Sincerely I don't think the ranger has been worked enough, there is been a very small changes (only torch) while the class needs deeper rework. Too many issues with core mechanics (core pets do not work against modern builds), not-well thought nerfs carried out to fix some situations were not reverted when with the years that situation stopped being relevant (Mobile spirits, Shortbow range,Druid nerfs) due to new reworks or new specialitations.
    Ranger is due for a deep clean up and IMO this changes could improve the class as right now it has no representation in sPvP and is hated and loathed in WvW.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    So squishy classes will no longer have any damage but still be able to be one shot and this offers counter play how?

    Oh yeah also why do they even keep all these stationary kitten like the herald shield, ventari tablet, turrets, spirits, charr ghosts, etc that just lock things in place actually work for competitive lol. I see they have been trying to sell the ventari tablet for many many months but no stability, insane amount of micromanagement moving the tablet, and the shield thing is a joke everyone knows how to bypass it so its completely useless to even attempt using it. Good luck with this game this is the final nail in the coffin.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    you see the game i came from many years ago, had also no dmg on CC skills so i dont really care for this anet did correct job there, BUT in that game we had FAR more skills not just 10 skills i mean u easily had up to 20 skills if not more. also the CC there wasnt AoE and the whole game wasnt such a AoE fest.
    well gw2 is and always was so shouldnt change the AoE here.. anyway like i said CC change was good but in a way some classes get shafted by this cus they kind of lose alot of dmg.

    if i had to balance this wvw i would just revert the game somehow to core and start looking from there what changed since HoT came in.
    dmg wise/healing wise/condi wise/boon wise whatelse i forgot ;)
    this i would touch and change..
    then i would grab PoF and do the same, tbfh PoF is where the skill spam started like it didnt matter anymore.
    scourges pooping shades all over place corrupting like idiots FB healing like fools etc

    so in my opinion HoT probably brought boon spam into game while PoF got this senseless skill spam into it.
    these should be changed tho patch is "finished" nothing gonna change from what we saw maybe some finishing touch here and there but nothing big so we can cry all we want it will come and we gotta deal with it.

  • I got a suggestion why bother with nerfs?! Just delete WvW!

  • I guess my feedback would be to not reduce all hard cc to neglible levels. Warrior hammer is pretty much only hard CC. If this is insistent the consider at least adding something to such skills beyond cc and damage.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @primatos.5413 said:
    Maybe .. wait til patch drops .. then try how this all is working out .. think .. give feedback ..

    This is the same Anet once they do something they dont go back. You can only stop them before the fact and it has helped to give them feed back on the ideal of the update it self as they "fixed" things before the full out come of the patch. So just keeping your head down and hoping it will work out dose not work for GW2.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    If you think they do not cleanse or provide condition immunity (not registered in arc fyi) through correct application of resistance then you must be playing with your eyes closed and your brain off. It won't be the top 3 cleansing players but below that when played by people who use skills they make up a significant part of a groups cleansing and double firebrand played by anyone who isn't a potato can more than keep up with condition application.

    Sure Chap 4 is nice and all for resistance. But we weren't talking about resistance, we were talking about cleansing. Resistance can be corrupted and counter-played, cleansing can not, which Firebrand is so low cleansing in comparison to say a tempest or a scrapper.

    Think of it this way... If you are fighting a condi-blob, you are fighting against corruption...where resistance will get stripped instantly and turned into a condition that you need to cleanse... If you think firebrand is what's holding that play-style at bay, then i don't know what to tell you.

    2 things.

    1. Pulsing 1s resistance is as good as cleansing. Do you know why? Because you get to not suffer the penalties of the conditions. This is honestly not a basic concept that should need explaining. Whether you permanently remove the condition or differ it's effects to a period of time where the enemy cannot benefit from it's application is the same thing in effect.
    2. You're comparing FB built for healing to 2 class/build combinations that are set up to cleanse primarily and built from the ground up to do so. FB outheals both these classes or should if not played by a brain damaged monkey, however we don't turn round and ignore the amount of healing tempest and scrapper both contribute to the group simply because they come behind FB. Likewise we shouldn't ignore the amount of cleanses FB contributes and it can contribute more if it drops MI in favour of group cleanses like purging flames which will depend on how much they nerf healing on MI etc. I would still expect FB to come further down the cleanse list though because 10 target literally doubles your cleansing power however I don't think it would be needed.

    You clearly don't have arcdps up or you're not asking your guildies how much they heal man. scrapper and tempest are putting out 2x the cleansing and 2.5x the healing fb does very consistently. Get with the times lol

    and as for 'no one uses condi builds because cleansing is too high'...

    I read it, then clicked the video, saw it was N/A.

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Warrior

    • Balanced Stance: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 60 seconds
    • Berserker Stance: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds
    • Endure Pain: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds. Increased duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds
      Defense

    • Defy Pain: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

    • Last Stand: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

    I understand this is a lot of added cooldown time and general nerfs.. but I can't help but get confused when the cool downs listed on the skills don't match what's currently shown in game tooltips.. are these numbers estimated?

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taylan.2187 said:
    Can't believe people are so panicky over these changes.

    Basically the changes will revert it back to where everyone is either play a necro or a guardian and possibly maybe a few spellbreakers but not many. Anything else won't have the power to cut through damage mitigation so anything other than those 3 classes will be pve classes as well as their elite specs. So all the panic comes from how they've done things in the past asked for feedback but only feedback that is "received well" if people don't like it they don't want to hear about it. So basically with warclaw killing roaming this was just the final straw to end wvw completely or put it on a maintenance mode. So maybe login once every 3 or 4 months to play living world episode and then go play another game because competitive will be too horrible to deal with. Return of Stare Wars 2...

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Am I the only one that absolutely hates Retaliation?

    It's probably not that big of a deal in zergs or team fights, but when you're a lone ele just trying to fight off a zerg attacking a tower or at least slow them down while you wait for reinforcements, it's difficult to keep pressure on them when you're getting blasted with retal.

  • NA is not that much different from EU at all. In fact recently we had NA transfer to EU, into Aurora glade and if they organize up, then they do pretty well. That and the organized EoTm fights they made with deso and WSR.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Most people here are looking at the patch through the current balance paradigm's lense and it is making their ability to judge the patch very cloudy.

    ...Instead of looking at the patch though the lenses of the remaining developers, which had no clue about how the game worked in the competitive parts of the game and never tested the truckload of changes that they will introduce suddenly, with no remorses...

    CMC Has played in national GW2 PvP tournaments that you can find on youtube right now.

    What have you done?

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    SO, when will the condis be nerfed?

    They are atm equally strong to power and if power specs die out, condis will be overpowered², since classes can put up 20-30stacks of condis within seconds

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taylan.2187 said:
    Can't believe people are so panicky over these changes. Apparently the game will "finally" die for the 971389th time. Guild Wars 2 is Palawa Joko!

    I'm really happy that TTK will increase, first of all. The extremely fast-paced fights in competitive game modes makes it feel like it's impossible to learn fighting strategically unless you have no life and play the game 8 hours a day. Some of us are adults with full-time jobs and still want to be able to learn some competitive gameplay, you know. Can't learn from my mistakes in a fight if it takes a skilled player 5 seconds to kill me. After 2 seconds I'll be spamming my stun breaks, condi clears and heals like crazy because otherwise I won't even last for those 5 seconds...

    Taking away the damage of hard-CC skills makes sense also. Clear separation of damage skills and CC skills means less skill spam and more strategic thinking. So even as a mediocre player you'll have an edge over someone who just face-rolls. Yay for having fewer builds in the game that allow the player to spam skills mindlessly and beat players who play more challenging builds and just haven't mastered them yet. (I'm a big thief fan for instance, and I was shocked to see how much other classes can just face-roll when I tried out some more.)

    The 90s to 300s cooldown increases make me wonder whether those skills shouldn't be changed completely. Maybe they will be swapped out slowly over further patches. I guess a powerful passive skill that can only trigger every 5 minutes is still acceptable for the time being, until the devs have enough time to replace them with active skills.

    So all in all, I say THANK YOU! Excited about the patches to come.

    +1

  • Kilamanjaro.2705Kilamanjaro.2705 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Catapulting thru a door, killing the baddies outside without damaging the door yourself.........
    50 man zerg just vanished better than a Marine Sniper............
    Thief moves faster than superman on meth.................
    They're pushing..........nvm it was just 30 clones from 3 mezmers............

    these are the realistic parts of the game we should ignore..........

  • Soo u are ruinig game mode, but u cant manage to stop mixing NA servers with EU.... do u have brains in your team, do u think its funny to fight all day and u lose everything over night coz time zone ? think about it ......

  • My main reaction (and this goes for PvP as well) is that toning down both damage and healing might have unintended consequences. To illustrate: suppose right now build A vs. build B leads to build A winning in about 30 seconds. With less damage and less healing, it might take build A 60 seconds to win. But taking twice as long might mean build A does not win at all: for example, build B can run to NPCs in WvW, or teammates have more time to come and assist in PvP. If this goes through, it should get harder for a thief to disengage from a fight and use its superior mobility to collapse on a duel on the other side of the map, scoring a kill before the opposing support can get there.

    Another thing to note is that PvP matches last for like 15 minutes. Any skill that has a 300s cooldown is only ever going to be used at most two times a match. That's pretty kitten severe.

    Overall I'm apprehensive for the changes, they might not be completely bad, but they're scary. Please make sure to playtest!

  • Waisenpai.6028Waisenpai.6028 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Why? What lead to this massive power and sustain nerf? Condi is already to toxic joke of wvw and spvp. So you want eveyone just to play condi and die from it? Closing doors and leaving a window open was the old policy, I see nothing but a dead end with this release. If your mass nerfing is the bases to repack and sell us a new expansion than that's okay.

    JUST TELL US YOU ARE GIVING US A NEW EXPANSION AND HAD TO NERF SOME NUMBERS!!! That's kinda okay then! :)

    Sword Weavers are decent 1v1 vs non POF metas in wvw. Sadly sword still has low packet damage, very small range and is easy to read. Good luck catching holo, mirage, or firebrand if fleeing from battle. You will never catch the others. And chill from Reapers gibs you so hard.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @Waisenpai.6028 said:
    Why? What lead to this massive power and sustain nerf? Condi is already to toxic joke of wvw and spvp. So you want eveyone just to play condi and die from it? Closing doors and leaving a window open was the old policy, I see nothing but a dead end with this release. If your mass nerfing is the bases to repack and sell us a new expansion than that's okay.

    JUST TELL US YOU ARE GIVING US A NEW EXPANSION AND HAD TO NERF SOME NUMBERS!!! That's kinda okay then! :)

    I would hate to see an expansion based off of these changes because its basically HoT all over again except in more depressing and worse way. Its just a way of saying maintenance mode or either deleting wvw altogether.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    they nerfed overall condi stacks as well.

    But does it rly matter in a full blob scenario? 30 or 60 stacks of any condi will kill you. If everybody runs condi and everybody does 1 stack of bleed or burn or poison etc, it will kill you, doesnt matter if they each apply 1 or 2 stacks with each attack.

    The biggest concerns i have for zergs are the stab nerfs, bringing us back to pirateship, with condi clear nerfs getting us also to condi meta.

    For smallscale my bigest concern is stealth, sinve it has been barely touched and with lowered dmg will be even harder to deal with. If you cant burst them down, they will just reset with stealth.

  • @Waisenpai.6028 smh no! they did still not give WvW even its share of PoF-content... how horrible would a new expansion now?
    we'll just get the condi bunker meta back, once more it seems. the only "idea from the forums" i saw they've used is "make 3-linked servers" to fill the maps up. nice, now we have more people on the maps that can get bored of not getting new stuff together :]

  • There have been so many changes to the classes I enjoy playing in wvw. I quit playing guard because of all the changes and switched to another class and have been playing a build I have been happy with for a long time. Now you are messing with the ONLY class I will play in wvw. I almost exclusively play wvw and would like to say "wait and see" with these newest changes but I may finally quit the game if these turn out how I think they are going to.

  • With regard to the Instant/Passive Traits Cool Down increase, examples such as Warrior's Defy Pain, The Last Stand, Ranger's Stone Form and Shared Anguish, and Guardian's Hunter's Determination while I do think it's a great idea to push rewarding good timing and punishing poor timing on use of skills all of these type of traits aren't generally controlled by the players as to when they trigger and in making the Cool Down so high (300 seconds = 5 minutes) this basically removes the usefulness of these in any average PvP setting ( the match is either generally decided by the time these cool downs would end) , if after due consideration it is still felt that the cool down needs to increased place it at 120 seconds versus the 300 seconds so as to allow these traits to still have some bearing in the PvP setting.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Where's Izzy? Just Smiter's Boon everything and give everyone sticks only.

  • @RedBaron.6058 said:
    Anyway, when thinking about reducing the impact of damage in this game, increasing base HP and toughness across all 9 classes seems way simpler than changing hundreds of skills...just my 2 cents.

    Basically, these intended changes are throwing away more than 7 years of constant balancing by changing almost everything at the same time...

    Even simpler, change damage calculations themselves so players do 1/3 of the damage, and 1/5 of the healing they have been doing.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    SO, when will the condis be nerfed?

    They are atm equally strong to power and if power specs die out, condis will be overpowered², since classes can put up 20-30stacks of condis within seconds

    +1

    (Toxic Condition Thief version 2.0 with Counterplay version 2.0) after patch

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • @Kilamanjaro.2705 said:
    any cooldown longer than 90 sec, 2 min at most, in a PvP setting is an insult, imho. you may as well remove it from the game, it is completely asinine to trait a skill I can use once, maybe twice in a match, or once every 2 or 3 wvw pushes.
    The use of 5 min CD's, imho, shows a complete disconnect from those who play these modes regularly. If you want the skill gone then delete it, but this is an insult

    They Smiter's Boon'ed them

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    SO, when will the condis be nerfed?

    They are atm equally strong to power and if power specs die out, condis will be overpowered², since classes can put up 20-30stacks of condis within seconds

    They are "strong" because of the ability to just barely outsustain todays roflstomp power damage when its < 3 in combat and the enemy not bringing cleanses, not because of damage.

    With sustain skills and heals heavily nerfed and people predicting a bunker meta... you do the math.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    If you think they do not cleanse or provide condition immunity (not registered in arc fyi) through correct application of resistance then you must be playing with your eyes closed and your brain off. It won't be the top 3 cleansing players but below that when played by people who use skills they make up a significant part of a groups cleansing and double firebrand played by anyone who isn't a potato can more than keep up with condition application.

    Sure Chap 4 is nice and all for resistance. But we weren't talking about resistance, we were talking about cleansing. Resistance can be corrupted and counter-played, cleansing can not, which Firebrand is so low cleansing in comparison to say a tempest or a scrapper.

    Think of it this way... If you are fighting a condi-blob, you are fighting against corruption...where resistance will get stripped instantly and turned into a condition that you need to cleanse... If you think firebrand is what's holding that play-style at bay, then i don't know what to tell you.

    2 things.

    1. Pulsing 1s resistance is as good as cleansing. Do you know why? Because you get to not suffer the penalties of the conditions. This is honestly not a basic concept that should need explaining. Whether you permanently remove the condition or differ it's effects to a period of time where the enemy cannot benefit from it's application is the same thing in effect.
    2. You're comparing FB built for healing to 2 class/build combinations that are set up to cleanse primarily and built from the ground up to do so. FB outheals both these classes or should if not played by a brain damaged monkey, however we don't turn round and ignore the amount of healing tempest and scrapper both contribute to the group simply because they come behind FB. Likewise we shouldn't ignore the amount of cleanses FB contributes and it can contribute more if it drops MI in favour of group cleanses like purging flames which will depend on how much they nerf healing on MI etc. I would still expect FB to come further down the cleanse list though because 10 target literally doubles your cleansing power however I don't think it would be needed.

    You clearly don't have arcdps up or you're not asking your guildies how much they heal man. scrapper and tempest are putting out 2x the cleansing and 2.5x the healing fb does very consistently. Get with the times lol

    and as for 'no one uses condi builds because cleansing is too high'...

    I read it, then clicked the video, saw it was N/A.

    Of course, i forgot how much better the EU players are!

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    TL;DR none of us have any idea what's going to happen in practice, on the field. The changes are just that many and that extreme it changes every class interaction in combat.

    lol yeah, honestly this too.

    Personally, I am mostly worried about these ever increasing cooldowns in order to "balance" skills (in particular the ridiculous 90->300s) and they are just making the combat unfun. Its not just this patch, it's been going on for a while. GW2 at its best is quick play-counterplay. The enemy pops a skill, you dodge. You pop a skill, the enemy block. The enemy stealth, you AoE knockdown. I'm all for skills doing less things at once and damage being weaker but the cooldowns... man...

    If I understand the patch note correctly, those features with a 300s cooldown are all passive ones that are automatically instead of manually triggered though. They do not make up the "play-counterplay" dynamic you described in the comment, if not hinders it. I'd argue that, by restricting such features, players are pushed to do more manual response and the dynamic would become even more like how you'd prefer.

    @jakolasku.4971 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    Will this leave Expertise some potential, for that the attribute contributes more the higher the base durations are, or will it be completely neglected as how it is at the moment, due to constant cleansing and possibly Resistance, which might just start to prevail in response to the shift to condition pressure, or just the sheer enhanced baseline duration making further investment pointless? Will the attribute become actually viable?

    Expertise becomes worse the longer the base duration of the condition is due to a higher likelihood of getting cleansed. It works better for condition bursts.

    Yeah...totally agreed. Still, I'd really like to see this attribute become actually viable in the competitive scene...thought that would require a severe overall decrease in both condition duration and cleansing, which is completely contradict where the developers are going right now and just would not happen.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    My thoughts are... post your feedback in the main feedback thread so it’s more orderly for the devs to read said feedback.

    The content of this post was not mean to be addressed to the developer. I do, however, have something to feedback to the developers and have written a detailed suggestion under the official thread, in case you might be interested.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    ...having said that if you're already dying on first push you're still going to die first push because it's sheer numbers and even a 30% damage reduction across the board isn't going to save you.

    Agreed. I was of course not advocating the shift toward glass cannons in the OP in case I left that impression.

    Roaming is affected too much at the moment by warclaw, longer fights = more chance of add ins which makes "roamers" perform worse especially with more warclaws chasing them while they can't escape. I doubt much will change here except small scale group fights might be more enjoyable till people get overwhelmed by numbers.

    You described it way better than I did.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    attribute allocation
    nope, they are making condis no longer burst but be over time like they were meant to be. problem is their cds are the same so they will be worthless in zerg fights, so nothings changed there.

    Also cleansing...I admit I really can't tell for sure on this one.

    people will still beat the 3k armor max drum so nothing will change there either.

    That true though lol

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    Nice thread, good effort. I blurted out my first reaction in the announcement thread. I don't have anything more to add for now. I like the summary here though.

    Thanks <3

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Revenant

    Hammer

    • Hammer Bolt: Reduced power coefficient from 0.95 to 0.633
    • Coalescence of Ruin: Increased cooldown from 4 seconds to 10 seconds
    • Phase Smash: Reduced power coefficient from 1.75 to 1.36. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 12 seconds
    • Drop the Hammer: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.01

    I cannot help but wonder what exactly the identity of Hammer for Revenant is. With these changes implemented It'd completely underperform in all game modes.

    Maybe go with the Jalis/Dwarf theme and make it the ultimate weapon of choice in terms of sustain for Revenant?

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Been expecting you to post something lol

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Good analysis and good foresight. My thoughts are somewhat same in some cases but some of these arguments are new to me and really good. You put a good effort OP and I thank you for that.

    My only hope is that the balance patch will have more than what they put into forums.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have played elementalist 3k hours and i don't have any idea what those patch notes mean. Didn't recognize any of those skills.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • This "Endure Pain: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds. Increased duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds" has to be a mistake. The skill 'Endure Pain' does 4 seconds of invulnerability and 5 seconds if traited with Defensive Grand master trait 'Last Stand'.

    Please make the following change to 'Endure Pain': Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds. Decreased duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, and disables all weapon and utility skills while under the effects of Endure Pain.

    We might just see an end to a core part of the meta exploit god mode warriors love making as warriors will no longer be able to offset their lack of defensive gear to a passive botted block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) -> invulnerability -> block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) -> invulnerability -> block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) combo.

    Bad enough the heal on might exploit.

  • Ghostof Luzifer.6159Ghostof Luzifer.6159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @primatos.5413 said:
    Maybe .. wait til patch drops .. then try how this all is working out .. think .. give feedback ..

    This is the same Anet once they do something they dont go back. You can only stop them before the fact and it has helped to give them feed back on the ideal of the update it self as they "fixed" things before the full out come of the patch. So just keeping your head down and hoping it will work out dose not work for GW2.

    are you a smoothbrain? :)

    "This patch is unusual in that it’s more about establishing a new paradigm than it is a regular balance update, and the result is a giant set of changes. Moving forward with competitive balance, we want to make smaller adjustments more often. The specific cadence for balance will always depend on our overall release schedule, but ideally it will be closer to every 4-6 weeks, while still having the opportunity to make minor tweaks outside of the regular balance update. The goal here is to have better flexibility to fix problems in a timely manner."

    Anyone who doesnt see that wvw is totally power/utility crept is ****** It should be obvious to anyone who played since core... or just switched to spvp for a while, since even there the game was less power crept than in wvw. This balance update is a first step into the right direection. btw they nerfing condi output/burst also. If it turns out that there are builds that are completely broken they will be hotfixed.
    Dude how can you be so pessimistic. Finally wvw gets some love it deserves.
    kitten seriously I dont get it to all the wvwer kitten on this balance update. Do you hate yourselfs??

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    @xDudisx.5914 said:

    -Passive procs going to 300s. I support nerfing passive procs, but 5 minutes is too long of a cooldown for anyone to even consider using a trait. I believe that 180s would more fair.

    -Mirage having only 50 endurance. I hate the current traillblazer scepter staff mirage that is god tier and requires nearly no skill to play, but that does not mean we should destroy the entire specialization. The nerfs to scepter #2 cd, staff #2 and #3, blink cd, decoy cd and the removal of stun break on evade are already enough to balance the class.

    These two things really struck me as well. I have long been in favor of removing passives since it is the epitome of "no skill required" play. But I agree, a 5 minute cooldown will essentially make the traits empty space. They should've been removed and replaced with something else long ago, and with the reduction of power damage across the board, I think its time. As far as the one-dodge-mirage, it will destroy the elite specialization. Condition mirage has been a blight on the game modes for far too long, but instead of nerfing an aspect of the spec that hurts all builds, they need to focus on the main problem which imo is infinite horizon. It would require more work on their part, but its work that should be done. The entire class has devolved into being based around that trait, even power builds. It needs to go, and ambush skills need to be made more impactful to compensate.

  • Zoser.7245Zoser.7245 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @xxXLightningXxx.8476 said:
    "Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes"

    Mesmer main for 7 years. Never mind the debatable changes to chrono over the years, but this?

    Thanks Anet, looks like it's time for me to leave the game.

    Yes, it's ridiculous. That is a big nerf in both ways defensive and ofensive. Leave you too vulnerable and mirrors don't help as you almost never reach them when needed in the right moment. They literally killed the Mirage in competitive modes as they did with the Chronomancer. How to make a specialization clunky in one step, remove half of the endurance in a game where dodge is a vial basic feature of its combat. Add that they also removed the stunbreak making the grandmaster a joke with a single dodge so a single clean of two conditions every 8-11 seconds as a grand master, at the cost of waste your dodge, lol. Is more a complement to remove control conditions when you need to dodge more than anything else. If we have vigor, others have Vigor+ and even 3 dodges and higher movility. The mesmers i know from my server will not play Mirage anymore, as they already don't do with Chronomancer since the balance team killed it and probably reroll. Not sure if few ones will accept act as portal bots with core mesmer instead of play something more funny and rewarding. I doubt it. Well, let see how the final patch notes come. But with that change, what they did with Chronomancer, etc, sure that i'll avoid to play any mesmer in competitive mode.