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  • Zoser.7245Zoser.7245 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @xxXLightningXxx.8476 said:
    "Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes"

    Mesmer main for 7 years. Never mind the debatable changes to chrono over the years, but this?

    Thanks Anet, looks like it's time for me to leave the game.

    Yes, it's ridiculous. That is a big nerf in both ways defensive and ofensive. Leave you too vulnerable and mirrors don't help as you almost never reach them when needed in the right moment. They literally killed the Mirage in competitive modes as they did with the Chronomancer. How to make a specialization clunky in one step, remove half of the endurance in a game where dodge is a vial basic feature of its combat. Add that they also removed the stunbreak making the grandmaster a joke with a single dodge so a single clean of two conditions every 8-11 seconds as a grand master, at the cost of waste your dodge, lol. Is more a complement to remove control conditions when you need to dodge more than anything else. If we have vigor, others have Vigor+ and even 3 dodges and higher movility. The mesmers i know from my server will not play Mirage anymore, as they already don't do with Chronomancer since the balance team killed it and probably reroll. Not sure if few ones will accept act as portal bots with core mesmer instead of play something more funny and rewarding. I doubt it. Well, let see how the final patch notes come. But with that change, what they did with Chronomancer, etc, sure that i'll avoid to play any mesmer in competitive mode.

  • What I am having a really hard time understanding is this: one of Necro's "selling" points is it's ability to counter boon spam, which is only a thing in competitive modes, so why is Anet taking skills that were designed specifically for competitive modes and nerfing the life out of them? Isn't is ironic that a necro has more boon corrupts/removal in PvE, where it is not really needed, than in PvP/WvW where it is VERY much needed?

    Honestly, Anet, what's your thought processes here?

  • Irbis.4932Irbis.4932 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kilamanjaro.2705 said:
    any cooldown longer than 90 sec, 2 min at most, in a PvP setting is an insult, imho. you may as well remove it from the game, it is completely asinine to trait a skill I can use once, maybe twice in a match, or once every 2 or 3 wvw pushes.
    The use of 5 min CD's, imho, shows a complete disconnect from those who play these modes regularly. If you want the skill gone then delete it, but this is an insult

    I second this. Not to mention there is no way to track trait cooldowns, how does that support "skillful timing"?

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Will revenant's incensed response keep its pvp version in wvw as well (5 might for 8 sec every time you gain fury vs 2 stacks for 4 seconds)? It's broken even now and it will be too strong after patch. Herald is the main offender, I don't think that the trait needs changes for core/renegade.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    I looove the changes to CC skills having power-co 0.01 always. This is the perfect way to go.
    I can't speak for all the classes, so I'm particularly focusing on Revenant. Personally, I hate how Shiro's overtaken the PvP sceneon Revenant, but I believe that is not the way to go:

    Shiro

    Riposting Shadows: Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. - This is going to work against the design of Revenant, I believe. It's just too much energy for non-elite.
    My suggestion for nerfing Riposting Shadows would be to reduce the distance of evade by half and remove the Fury. I really get why Riposting Shadows is being nerfed - it's just toxic. But I personally don't want to find myself in a situation where I don't use the legend because of its' high Energy costs - this was one of the main Jalis' problems before balancing.

    Phase Traversal: WvW will now use the PvP version of the skill (35 energy cost) - Again, too much energy. Reduce the range of the skill.

    Problem with Shiro isn't the energy cost, it's that these two skills do too much. Change the functionality, not the cost.

    Anyway, I love the changes and whatever people are saying, nerf everything.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @CelestialCat.6240 said:
    This "Endure Pain: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds. Increased duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds" has to be a mistake. The skill 'Endure Pain' does 4 seconds of invulnerability and 5 seconds if traited with Defensive Grand master trait 'Last Stand'.

    Please make the following change to 'Endure Pain': Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds. Decreased duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, and disables all weapon and utility skills while under the effects of Endure Pain.

    We might just see an end to a core part of the meta exploit god mode warriors love making as warriors will no longer be able to offset their lack of defensive gear to a passive botted block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) -> invulnerability -> block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) -> invulnerability -> block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) combo.

    Bad enough the heal on might exploit.

    Buddy the heal on Might gain isn't an exploit...thats intended. Secondly, barely any Warrior actually runs with Rune of the Defender, because it sacrifices too much utility of other runes just to cheese something that is already going to be getting its heal nerfed. Thirdly, Endure Pain is getting a 1 second increase on its duration because Defy Pain (the trait) is going up to a 5 minute cooldown which the passives do sorely need to be reworked. Finally, Endure Pain does not function the same way as other invulns like Obsidian Flesh and Elixir S. Warriors are still susceptible to CC effects and Condition damage even while it is active whereas the true invulns, like those previously mentioned skills, are not.

    Short version, Rune of the Defender was tried before...meh. Not worth it. If it was it would have seen a lot more use. Its entirely reliant on a player continuing to hit the block...and people can just stow cancel or stop attacking to not hit the block.

  • trixantea.1230trixantea.1230 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Reapers already lack stabilty and if you nerf Reaper's access to stability even more than it is now, you could at least make Reaper Shroud 3 a stunbreak in addition to its stability effect.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    Like the changes and i see that many skills/traits just got smiter's booned and i hope will be changed in the future.

    Have to say that in pretty much every discord i am in, we've seen resurgence of activity and plans for reforms. Keep it up and people might actually come back.

    As mesmer main i also have to complain about chrono shatters and mirage 1 dodge... Idk, seems a bit off.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭

    Decreasing power will indirectly buff siege.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Please rework scrapper from scrach.
    Reducing hammer damage will result in less barrier generation, whole idea of scrapper just doesn't work and keeps proving to be faulty every time (first - condi won't benefit scrapper, now this).

    Beside Engi in general has little to none access to Stability unless you go Elixirs. Please either rethink Stab nerf on Holo or give core engi another stability source from traits.

    [NUKE]

  • Leave throw mine skill alone also. You can practically corrupt over 100 boons every 12-14 seconds in total with this skill based on balanced patch.

  • Scorp.6152Scorp.6152 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    All right, this seems like a radical amount of change, and that is an exciting concept. Things can only grow from there, correct? Well there are a few things I think need to be considered for certain classes; a major one being evasion up time.

    Many classes such as Soulbeast, Thief in general, and Mirage, to name a few, already gain a lot of their bloated sustain from evasion, among other things. As a Thief main, it's obvious to anyone at this point Thief gets a lot of its sustain from underhanded methods. Stealth, evasion, and just general movement.
    Sword / Pistol Thief is prevalent right now, and the main reason it does well is its oppressive ability to lock down an opponent whilst shutting down counter play with evasion.

    In a world where everything hits less hard, evasion based classes will thrive too much, and that's important to consider going forward.
    Daredevil's general evasion up-time will need observed. And from looking at the Thief changes, I can already foresee a potential rise in the Staff meta. Vault and Bound already sound overpowered in this new collective. I also see that the majority of skills have been nerfed on co-efficient by about 50%, generally. Vault is to be nerfed around 30%, and considering its exceptionally high base damage, it will still hit hard, while providing evasion in a build that already spams weakness output.
    The meta is simply RIFE with weakness right now, in fact. And it harshly affects damage output; that's another thing to consider, if everything hits less hard.
    Also, the condition damage nerfs seem little compared to the power. The burning nerfs are good, as burning has been over-tuned for a long time, despite its previous nerfs.
    I would still say other conditions could stand to receive a nerf. Perhaps a reconsideration of their overall damage in these game modes would be required. Reducing their up-time is facile when you consider their potential. They're called Damage over Time for a reason, but who needs sustained bleeding when you can get 2,000 condition damage and generate 20-30 bleed stacks on a Mirage in no time flat, even if for two-five seconds. That's creating an unhealthy condition burst meta where people run high sustain gear and get free damage. And people will.

    Also, with a nerf to everything, you may need to seriously consider altering how food affects WvW. Suddenly 10% damage reduction food will feel much more noticeable, and now we have ascended food that generate higher stats on top.
    The issue with a highly ambitious patch of this regard is how much collateral it can cause within the game's core. Things have changed since 2012; power creep has not just been caused by specialisations.

    This is mainly speaking from a roaming perspective. I cannot really comment in-depth on zergs, but I will say this: HoT's boon meta was disturbing, especially over on NA servers. You had giant Maguuma blobs running around with boon share Mesmers that were impossible to kill. Literally impossible. If anything that was the beginning of the cries for more boon strip. I think both boons and boon strip counter play are something that made WvW extremely linear in its approach to wide spread combat. Combat is mainly centralised around bubble play, making fights drawn out and boring in open field, as commanders attempt to out-manoeuvre, and laughably short in chokes. Imagine asking forty people to double dodge through a million corrupts and warding lines and expect all of them to get through. It's pretty unlikely for less experienced back liners. Maybe some prefer this. I personally don't.

    Anyway, I'm less qualified than others to comment on zergs, but I think it's a highly volatile meta that is also extremely hard to balance in its current state, so it might just need reworked entirely.

  • good balance, fb was too strong, same for bubble spellbreaker and hammler rev. meta will be proba so far better

  • miguelsil.6324miguelsil.6324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    What about Perma stealth and crazy mobility working together? This is still being ignored by you?

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:
    Leave throw mine skill alone also. You can practically corrupt over 100 boons every 12-14 seconds in total with this skill based on balanced patch.

    Yeah, this can't go though, should even be nerfed from where it currently stands it seems.

  • Blackarps.1974Blackarps.1974 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    While not a huge deal, are guard's HP going to be reduced given the amount of power change on our builds? The first thing that came to mind was trying to kill the SMC lord with the iron guard buff. Its already really slow. The other thing is, that from a roaming perspective, capping camps is going to take roughly 20% longer at the least. That doesn't sound like fun.

  • Simzani.4318Simzani.4318 Member ✭✭✭

    So after all this time you only tweaked numbers and you didn't work on mechanic changes. Is this a joke ? Where is your months' worth of work ?

  • Pride.1734Pride.1734 Member
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Manifest Sand Shade: This skill now uses the PvE ammo recharge of 8 seconds in all game modes

    Did you all collectively skip over this bit? They are almost halving the cooldown from 15 to 8. This is insane.

  • @Arctisavange.7261 said:
    Leave throw mine skill alone also. You can practically corrupt over 100 boons every 12-14 seconds in total with this skill based on balanced patch.

    Yeah that would be ridiculous if all the boon remove was multiplied by 3, but won't Mine Field be staying at 1 boon per mine? The change to Throw Mine doesn't automatically roll over to other mine related skills.

  • IMO, The key things I see wrong with this:

    Elimination of "Concentration" attribute by reducing a ton of the boons to 1-2 seconds. Why bother running anything with that stat. For that matter, why run any healing gear?

    Extending cool downs might play into strategic play, but large cool downs like them 300s ICD is disastrous. Those skills may as well get taken out or changed completely.

    Increasing TTK would be better for base Vitality and Toughness to rise. Not every damage skill needs to eat 150+% coefficient nerfs for balance. However, buffing secondary effects (target count, stun, boon strip, heals, etc) for damage coefficient nerf is reasonable.

    There's tons of damage going around, so I'm not completely opposed to regulation. That being said, I see condition damage still being viable and sustain taking nerfs, which still keeps TTK low when you factor in a condi bomb.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

    No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

    TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

    This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

    Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

    Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

    Lol you do understand that right now we have one of the worst metas imaginable.

    On a more serious note, 2017 had a way better meta than we have atm. Long fights favors the better players more when compared to short for very obvious reasons.

    The new meta looks like it's gonna be way less bursty than the current one, which is very good as it increases the likelihood of fights where skill matters more than numbers.

    The current meta heavily favor high mobility builds which use a combination of bursting and resetting (running away), which leads to very linear and poor gameplay.

    Zerging isn't likely to change much. Boons requiring more investment isn't a bad thing and condi actually existing isn't either. Melee shouldn't be weaker than before as actually closing the distance isn't gonna leave you half dead anymore, also corrupts/boon removal are getting nerfed.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Arctisavange.7261Arctisavange.7261 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

    No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

    TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

    This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

    Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

    Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

    Lol you do understand that right now we have one of the worst metas imaginable.

    On a more serious note, 2017 had a way better meta than we have atm. Long fights favors the better players more when compared to short for very obvious reasons.

    The new meta looks like it's gonna be way less bursty than the current one, which is very good as it increases the likelihood of fights where skill matters more than numbers.

    The current meta heavily favor high mobility builds which use a combination of bursting and resetting (running away), which leads to very linear and poor gameplay.

    Zerging isn't likely to change much. Boons requiring more investment isn't a bad thing and condi actually existing isn't either. Melee shouldn't be weaker than before as actually closing the distance isn't gonna leave you half dead anymore, also corrupts/boon removal are getting nerfed.

    Long fights in 2017? Wait what, was i sleeping that year? Back in 2017 scourge F1 ability with a big kitten AoE fields corrupted boons and was spammed 24/7. Meaning any sort of melee pushes were practically impossible, unless you were 1 pushing every enemy.

    But i suppose if you call playing full pirateshit where none of the sides couldnt have engaged cause of the constant corruption, then yeah i suppose you can call the fights lasting just a flimsy bit longer. Not sure what kind of brain dead person enjoyed pirate kitten but something tells me youre one of them who did.

    I see that you havent played this game at all. As someone who as played since launch then seeing your comment, you didnt even experience 2015 pre HoT meta lmao.
    So far this meta is far more better then the previous pirateship condition heavy boon rip meta we had.
    Does the current meta sucks? Yes.
    Is the current one better then the last one? Yes
    Do we want the previous more horrible meta back again? NO!.

    The new meta will be very condition heavy even after the tiny condition nerfs anet adds on the upcoming patch. You have no idea how many conditions can be thrown out right now if a full blob would play with skills that use condi as main damage. Right now youre cleansing conditions from power skills that has passive conditions as add ons, hence why the condi cleanse feels strong for clueless ppl who didnt play during condi meta.
    What killed 2017 condi meta was Antitoxin rune (which was nerfed to the ground) and power damage being more reliable. Now given also power will get nerfed, cleansing will get nerfed, boon duration will get nerfed, condi will make a return as there are too many active condition skills that also add passive condition effects.

    Having no stability doesnt make melee pushes available. Theres a difference having stability for 4 seconds, over having stability for 1-2 seconds. What super human can put that 1-2 second stability to effect against ranged CC skills (theres a ton of crowd control skills in Gw2) that hit you from 900-1200 range, be real.

    Regarding the boon removal. Have you looked into the skill called "Throw mine"? If not then take a look at this:

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/545476210?t=

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

    No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

    TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

    This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

    Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

    Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

    Lol you do understand that right now we have one of the worst metas imaginable.

    On a more serious note, 2017 had a way better meta than we have atm. Long fights favors the better players more when compared to short for very obvious reasons.

    The new meta looks like it's gonna be way less bursty than the current one, which is very good as it increases the likelihood of fights where skill matters more than numbers.

    The current meta heavily favor high mobility builds which use a combination of bursting and resetting (running away), which leads to very linear and poor gameplay.

    Zerging isn't likely to change much. Boons requiring more investment isn't a bad thing and condi actually existing isn't either. Melee shouldn't be weaker than before as actually closing the distance isn't gonna leave you half dead anymore, also corrupts/boon removal are getting nerfed.

    Long fights in 2017? Wait what, was i sleeping that year? Back in 2017 scourge F1 ability with a big kitten AoE fields corrupted boons and was spammed 24/7. Meaning any sort of melee pushes were practically impossible, unless you were 1 pushing every enemy.

    And now scourge has been nerfed so very very much because Anet is insistent on keeping AoE caps. Condi scourge will still barely because the dmg is non-existant. Most other condi builds are either melee or completely irrelevant to zerging.

    But i suppose if you call playing full pirateshit where none of the sides couldnt have engaged cause of the constant corruption, then yeah i suppose you can call the fights lasting just a flimsy bit longer. Not sure what kind of brain dead person enjoyed pirate kitten but something tells me youre one of them who did.

    I personally don't enjoy just following a tag hitting 1 repeatedly whether it's in melee or at range. Cause let's be honest if you honestly believe anything you personally do changes anything in a 30+ size group then idk what to tell you.

    But it's fairly easy to predict how balance changes impact zerging due to it's simplicity.

    Low dmg is good for melee as high dmg means you lose more hp while engaging. Boon corrupts/removal is going down, even if engi gets a memey boon removal (engi is also a melee power build fyi (both scrapper and holo)). In addition to this most CC skills no longer do dmg so the cc bomb that would happen while engaging is much more survivable.

    I see that you havent played this game at all. As someone who as played since launch then seeing your comment, you didnt even experience 2015 pre HoT meta lmao.

    Weird flex but okay.

    Really though I will have you know I have indeed played since pre-pre-pre alpha, so you might as well just stop trying. /s

    On a serious note, what does pre-HoT meta have to do with anything?

    So far this meta is far more better then the previous pirateship condition heavy boon rip meta we had.
    Does the current meta sucks? Yes
    Is the current one better then the last one? Yes
    Do we want the previous more horrible meta backa gain? NO!.

    I do, you might not but neither of us speaks for everyone, yet one of us tries to claim they do.

    The new meta will be very condition heavy even after the tiny condition nerfs anet adds on the upcoming patch. You have no idea how many conditions can be thrown out right now if a full blob would play with skills that use condi as main damage. Right now youre cleansing conditions from power skills that has passive conditions as add ons, hence why the condi cleanse feels strong for clueless ppl who didnt play during condi meta.

    You seem to have no idea how many condis a full blob can cleanse... Try zerging as a trailblazer build with arcdps on and see roughly where you fall, should be interesting

    What killed 2017 condi meta was Antitoxin rune (which was nerfed to the ground) and power damage being more reliable. Now given also power will get nerfed, condi will make a return.

    Nah what killed it was nerfs to every single viable condi build as well as people realizing just how easy it is to counter condi in a zerg, because of the way group clears work.

    Having no stability doesnt make melee pushes available. Theres a difference having stability for 4 seconds, over having stability for 1-2 seconds. What super human can put that 1-2 second stability to effect against ranged CC skills that hit you from 900-1200 range, be real.

    There's multiple skills that give AoE stab for longer in addition to many skills that give longer personal. Stand your ground being a good example.

    Regarding the boon removal. Have you looked into the skill called "Throw mine"? If not then take a look at this:

    In a few weeks throw mine will still be a meme, that comes from a power melee build, your favorite kind.

    Thanks for a video I'm never gonna watch cause videos are a terrible source of information

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Condition Creep will be the next meta

    -Guild Wars 2 Typical 'Recycle Balance Effect'-

    1. Play
    2. Rewind

    - Guild Wars 2 Recycle Balance Effect-

    Condition>Bunker>Power<<Rewind

    -(Condition Meta--press Play)-

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

    No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

    TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

    This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

    Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

    Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

    Lol you do understand that right now we have one of the worst metas imaginable.

    On a more serious note, 2017 had a way better meta than we have atm. Long fights favors the better players more when compared to short for very obvious reasons.

    The new meta looks like it's gonna be way less bursty than the current one, which is very good as it increases the likelihood of fights where skill matters more than numbers.

    The current meta heavily favor high mobility builds which use a combination of bursting and resetting (running away), which leads to very linear and poor gameplay.

    Zerging isn't likely to change much. Boons requiring more investment isn't a bad thing and condi actually existing isn't either. Melee shouldn't be weaker than before as actually closing the distance isn't gonna leave you half dead anymore, also corrupts/boon removal are getting nerfed.

    Long fights in 2017? Wait what, was i sleeping that year? Back in 2017 scourge F1 ability with a big kitten AoE fields corrupted boons and was spammed 24/7. Meaning any sort of melee pushes were practically impossible, unless you were 1 pushing every enemy.

    But i suppose if you call playing full pirateshit where none of the sides couldnt have engaged cause of the constant corruption, then yeah i suppose you can call the fights lasting just a flimsy bit longer. Not sure what kind of brain dead person enjoyed pirate kitten but something tells me youre one of them who did.

    I see that you havent played this game at all. As someone who as played since launch then seeing your comment, you didnt even experience 2015 pre HoT meta lmao.
    So far this meta is far more better then the previous pirateship condition heavy boon rip meta we had.
    Does the current meta sucks? Yes.
    Is the current one better then the last one? Yes
    Do we want the previous more horrible meta back again? NO!.

    The new meta will be very condition heavy even after the tiny condition nerfs anet adds on the upcoming patch. You have no idea how many conditions can be thrown out right now if a full blob would play with skills that use condi as main damage. Right now youre cleansing conditions from power skills that has passive conditions as add ons, hence why the condi cleanse feels strong for clueless ppl who didnt play during condi meta.
    What killed 2017 condi meta was Antitoxin rune (which was nerfed to the ground) and power damage being more reliable. Now given also power will get nerfed, cleansing will get nerfed, boon duration will get nerfed, condi will make a return as there are too many active condition skills that also add passive condition effects.

    Having no stability doesnt make melee pushes available. Theres a difference having stability for 4 seconds, over having stability for 1-2 seconds. What super human can put that 1-2 second stability to effect against ranged CC skills (theres a ton of crowd control skills in Gw2) that hit you from 900-1200 range, be real.

    Regarding the boon removal. Have you looked into the skill called "Throw mine"? If not then take a look at this:

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/545476210?t=

    I think you underestimate by how much condi dmg is going to be nerfed. Like corruption is down like 50% (less random condies), torment of shade, dhumfire on shade all down to 1s and more things like this. Which means that condies are actually going to run out on their own a lot of the times. Other classes can only use 1-3 condies. I don't see it being that much of an issue.

    On second look also throw mine buff is only on big mine skill.

  • Exept from missing the condi nerfes, I would call this great changes. Thumbs up

  • People need to take the time look at the coefficients on traits, skills and food to make the best maximized builds that fit their play styles and then it is on based on your skill in fights.

    I played a few meta builds and 75% of them are really bad because it looks like they were just thrown together from quick reading in the trait lines thinking to yourself these words "Oooh this is cool and over powered" but in reality it does not do well if not performing what you want and to your type of play style.

    By really taking the time and go through things looking at gear, stats, coefficients on traits, skills and food also using "MATH" to make the best maximized builds that fit their play styles.

    With the balance patch it will force everyone to look at things differently and by doing what is said above will solve the most of your problems all together.

    Do not fully rely on the meta's because you can always make it better for your play style.

    It is only a game and it is meant for you to have fun.

  • ele is massively undertuned AT THIS MOMENT. Revs do at least the same damage PLUS BOONS AND have a heavy armor class.

    Mesmers? Necors? Not only do they as good or better damage but also have higher base hp.

    I understand SOME nerfing, but this is just too much. WAY to much.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:
    Long fights in 2017? Wait what, was i sleeping that year? Back in 2017 scourge F1 ability with a big kitten AoE fields corrupted boons and was spammed 24/7. Meaning any sort of melee pushes were practically impossible, unless you were 1 pushing every enemy.

    First nine months of 2017 was still the HoT meta, and combat was actually in a decent place after spending 2016 trying to fix the mess balance patch June 23rd 2015 and HoT created. After that was PoF which reset the meta and much like HoT release, condi spam meta happened again with scourges.
    So I guess you were asleep most of that year? XD

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @God.2708 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Most people here are looking at the patch through the current balance paradigm's lense and it is making their ability to judge the patch very cloudy.

    ...Instead of looking at the patch though the lenses of the remaining developers, which had no clue about how the game worked in the competitive parts of the game and never tested the truckload of changes that they will introduce suddenly, with no remorses...

    CMC Has played in national GW2 PvP tournaments that you can find on youtube right now.

    What have you done?

    A professional football player does not necessarily know better than a referee.

    I both agree and disagree with what you're saying because you do not need to be capable of high end game play to understand how to achieve it. Or, skill does not necessarily mean comprehension.

    I'm prepared to give this patch a chance because I think toning things down is a healthy decision. I also think it may suck for a while but as has been stated in the OP, follow up patches will be made on a regular schedule and hopefully things are eventually brought in line. Everyone will just have to suffer through the rough parts for a while until ANet figures out the right numbers. Still, there are many questionable changes here that, knowing ANet and how they have handled things historically, are rightful to be concerned with even with the promise of subsequent patches.

    Witchery [YWY] | Maguuma | Diamond Legend

  • I used to run a power reaper in WvW. Then I learned how to run a condi scourge... then a healing scourge. After looking at the consolidated wiki entry and seeing the changes being made to Necros in general, it looks like it's being nerfed to hell and back. Now there's basically minimal boon corrupt/removal for the class. Sure there's still dmg output from stacking condis using other methods. But it means nothing if we cannot remove the Resistance boon fast enough that's buried within the other 5-10 boons on top of it.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭

    I just realized, were there not talk/leaks earlier about new elite specializations? Before each expansion there were similar heavy handed nerfs in order to highlight the benefit of the new content, so is this just the same stuff as last time?

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @primatos.5413 said:
    Maybe .. wait til patch drops .. then try how this all is working out .. think .. give feedback ..

    This is the same Anet once they do something they dont go back. You can only stop them before the fact and it has helped to give them feed back on the ideal of the update it self as they "fixed" things before the full out come of the patch. So just keeping your head down and hoping it will work out dose not work for GW2.

    are you a smoothbrain? :)

    "This patch is unusual in that it’s more about establishing a new paradigm than it is a regular balance update, and the result is a giant set of changes. Moving forward with competitive balance, we want to make smaller adjustments more often. The specific cadence for balance will always depend on our overall release schedule, but ideally it will be closer to every 4-6 weeks, while still having the opportunity to make minor tweaks outside of the regular balance update. The goal here is to have better flexibility to fix problems in a timely manner."

    Anyone who doesnt see that wvw is totally power/utility crept is ****** It should be obvious to anyone who played since core... or just switched to spvp for a while, since even there the game was less power crept than in wvw. This balance update is a first step into the right direection. btw they nerfing condi output/burst also. If it turns out that there are builds that are completely broken they will be hotfixed.
    Dude how can you be so pessimistic. Finally wvw gets some love it deserves.
    kitten seriously I dont get it to all the wvwer kitten on this balance update. Do you hate yourselfs??

    No ideal what that is nor do i care to know.

    The patch new paradigm is to drop dmg effects with out dealing with def boons and def gear its not like they are making armor and hp changes at the same time they are making power and crits changes. If they are going though all of this for months and months then doing more then just a blanket update like this for the weaker effects of self stab could easly be updated differently. We are going to have weaker self stab then what a gurd can give out as support for all classes that is a massive changes for wvw. This makes the game less flexible to update as it treat skill numbers not effects as means of update. You can nerf a boon duration as much as you want but the effect of -33% dmg is a very powerful boon that only needs to be up for the burst and nothing more this is ture for all of the boons.

    Every one in wvw is sick of not being able to kill classes because of lack of dmg in balance builds. It cuts any type of skill game play and makes the wvw game more passive then it already is. If any thing it going to make siege meta the thing if not even worst both for dps make up that will be lost and the means of counting it though support over time heal lost.

    This is not content that wvw ppl want its a part way of balancing that will do nothing for the current passive meta because that has more to do with the way wvw is played by its goal. If it takes months and months to update blanket balance how would anet be able to update on the fly for your "hotfixed" meta that you suggest? You are saying anet is both unable to update skills to be balance in the time given and are able to blanace hotfixed to fix an meta problme that EVERY ONE pointing out to anet.

    You must not be a wvw player or a new one as these things have happens and balance updates for the game time are so far and few in-between that you need to community to talk about it as anet dose not go back on there chose for an update till the next full on update. Anet dose not hotfix metas.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

  • Kilamanjaro.2705Kilamanjaro.2705 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Blob play remains the order of the day, there are alternatives to that, I have played them, daily, just not here.
    If you're going to make such massive changes perhaps you should look at some other game mechanics in other games to encourage a more dynamic and active battlefield experience.
    In wvw the action of the fight is pin vs pin usually (barring roamers and duellers and gankers). You lose the pin due to a lag spike and you die. It's possible to have mass battles with many many individual battles taking place within it. Find ways to break up the blobs, I can think of a game i would love to see morphed partially into this one.
    Boons are toxic and mindless, bring in a manual block, counter strikes, interrupts, more slotted reflects that are personal and less group specific.
    Just some thoughts

  • @God.2708 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Most people here are looking at the patch through the current balance paradigm's lense and it is making their ability to judge the patch very cloudy.

    ...Instead of looking at the patch though the lenses of the remaining developers, which had no clue about how the game worked in the competitive parts of the game and never tested the truckload of changes that they will introduce suddenly, with no remorses...

    CMC Has played in national GW2 PvP tournaments that you can find on youtube right now.

    What have you done?

    A professional football player does not necessarily know better than a referee.

    I both agree and disagree with what you're saying because you do not need to be capable of high end game play to understand how to achieve it. Or, skill does not necessarily mean comprehension.

    I'm prepared to give this patch a chance because I think toning things down is a healthy decision. I also think it may suck for a while but as has been stated in the OP, follow up patches will be made on a regular schedule and hopefully things are eventually brought in line. Everyone will just have to suffer through the rough parts for a while until ANet figures out the right numbers. Still, there are many questionable changes here that, knowing ANet and how they have handled things historically, are rightful to be concerned with even with the promise of subsequent patches.

    That is a loser's logic. If you have some sort of physical handicap preventing you from achieving such that is one thing. But you don't get to high end play without understanding. Likewise if you actually legitimately understand high end game play there is little that should stop you from at least being competitive at such a stage.

    Not to mention fairly irrelevant given the person I was replying to said 'developers, which had no clue about how the game worked in the competitive parts of the game' which is factually false given CmCs history and is probably coming from a player who in fact has no idea how the game works in the competitive parts.

    Understanding how to rotate and fight things. Not how to properly balance. Maybe I was unclear, but that was what I meant.

    Witchery [YWY] | Maguuma | Diamond Legend

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    +1

    I completely agree with you on that part.

    -to be honest, i do blame Anet for this because within the few years; this is what they do to us without communicating with us during processing patch notes

    They 'throw us in the 'lion's den' to process the patch notes alone, resulting in us arguing with each other instead of being honest with us and helping ease our frustrations

    Don't you see how Anet play a role in this?

  • if they going to reduce all classes damage to this new standard, that takes the assumption that every thing else is equal.

    Elementalist has lowest HP and Armor in game, where is the balance here? what gains does this class see?

    There is no balance in these notes.. not one little bit. There is just a game play change of a reduction in damage and healing.. no balance adjustment in the slightest.

    Absolute garbage.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    That the thing this update makes you less likely to see the odd ball builds in wvw as you will have to max your power dmg or healing to keep up OR you NEED to have a gurd or 2 in every group just to have enofe stab as they are nerfing number of targets for the support stab and nerfing every one self stab.

    This update is the worst way to promote fun game play.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My prediction not for this update but the one after is going to be another paradigm shift as they do not every to seem to have a real aim from update to update. I just image they will not use the phase "paradigm shift" and hope you forgot about the last big update. The moment they make less used skills have longer cd because of there ideal that holds there attention for this update after spending years making them more usable by dropping there cd (they are still not used) shows they have no real aim in the long run only short term doing things.

    For this update every one going to push more into there best of class builds more power more healing power and every one will need a gurd or 2 per group as self stab is getting hit hard. Ppl are going to hate wvw more and more.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    That the thing this update makes you less likely to see the odd ball builds in wvw as you will have to max your power dmg or healing to keep up OR you NEED to have a gurd or 2 in every group just to have enofe stab as they are nerfing number of targets for the support stab and nerfing every one self stab.

    This update is the worst way to promote fun game play.

    Guard is already in every group... You must be new.

  • If you don't want Spellbreakers to use Winds of Disenchantment then take it out of the blasted game, stop with the continual nerfs to it. As it stands it's of limited use because of the (terrible imo) decision to make it a channelled skill but after this I just can't see it being used in large fights.

    Also Condi was already incredibly strong in large WvW fights, I am not convinced that these changes won't see an increase in condi builds across the board.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SloRules.3560 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    That the thing this update makes you less likely to see the odd ball builds in wvw as you will have to max your power dmg or healing to keep up OR you NEED to have a gurd or 2 in every group just to have enofe stab as they are nerfing number of targets for the support stab and nerfing every one self stab.

    This update is the worst way to promote fun game play.

    Guard is already in every group... You must be new.

    @SloRules.3560 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    This whole back and forth here is pointless and I don't really see why you guys are fighting with each other.

    Personally yeah I guess I have to admit that I'm going to enjoy people having to think of their own builds for at least awhile, it might make things more enjoyable in turn. But at the same time I don't like the changes overall because they just seem poorly thought out and hit certain classes and specs far harder then the rest which will probably cause some issues with classes you'll see commonly.

    That the thing this update makes you less likely to see the odd ball builds in wvw as you will have to max your power dmg or healing to keep up OR you NEED to have a gurd or 2 in every group just to have enofe stab as they are nerfing number of targets for the support stab and nerfing every one self stab.

    This update is the worst way to promote fun game play.

    Guard is already in every group... You must be new.

    But you will need more as they no longer hit 10 targets and lack as much support stab AND classes who had some version of self stab is only getting nerfed by being made into 60 sec cd. We can also point out that blocks and non healing support will become much stronger something witch guard has and other support classes do not.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • So is condi & toughness gonna get scaled-down because that's still a big issue?

  • @pureskullz.7536 said:
    So is condi & toughness gonna get scaled-down because that's still a big issue?

    Condi will be nerfed but not enough to put it on the same bar as after patch power damage. So pretty much condi will be stronger then power after patch.

  • **OVERALL INPUT: **

    _**After playing this game for 7 years and maining necro for those 7 years with over 10k games in Spvp, and after being involved in the pvp community and attending 2 of the WTS lans I can say:

    These are good changes for Spvp balance as a start.

    It's hard to gauge how things will turn out because this time around - so many variables are being changed which is why nobody relevant in the spvp community has posted this thread yet.
    Most of their feedback will be on their streams to their viewers. So if you really want the inside scoop on their educated guesses go watch Chaith, Naru, Sindrener, Angels, Vallun, Grimjack, and Shorts, and don't be surprised if Helseth logs in to do a review.

    Additionally, What most of us would like to see next:
    Now that damage, survivability, and sustain have been nerfed across the board - the devs need to start changing how skills, traits, and all that work (functionality).

    Instead of responding with useless and lazy damage, survivability, and sustain nerfs, they need to change functionality of things that need to be buffed, or nerfed to add depth to the game, provide fun/entertaining/in depth counterplay opportunity, and change the way the conquest is currently being played for the better.

    This is all a good start though. We are raising the skill ceiling on the game once again, and getting rid of cheese mode builds that require low skill, but have a big affect on matches such as condi mirage, s/p thief, and symbols firebrand. **_

    -Contraversy

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bring on this new era, I say!

    For once, I'm going to against the grain here and look forward to what's coming instead of being jaded like a good number of people are here. Powercreep is directly being addressed both in terms of damage and defensive output right before our eyes and people are still not satisfied. I and many others have asked for this to be addressed for YEARS.

    I can be jaded but still look forward to what the future may bring.

    It's in the same vein of me saying a cool mount was added into wvw, but also heavily disagreed with a mount in general being added to the gamemode.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @VALARMORGHULIS.9173 said:
    So if you really want the inside scoop on their educated guesses go watch Chaith, Naru, Sindrener, Angels, Vallun, Grimjack, and Shorts, and don't be surprised if Helseth logs in to do a review.

    Why would we ever want input from those guys, we're already getting all the detailed reviews on how the patch will exactly play by the pros on these forums.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.