Fix Mind Wrack post-patch scaling — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Fix Mind Wrack post-patch scaling

Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 1, 2020 in Mesmer

Mind Wrack: Adjusted as follows.

  • One Clone Shattered: Reduced power coefficient from 1.15 to 1.0
  • Two Clones Shattered: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.92 to 0.7
  • Three Clones Shattered: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.805 to 0.613
Total pre-patch post-patch pre-post difference
0 clones 1.15 1.0 13 %
increase 100% 100%
1 clones 1.15*2 = 2.3 1.0*2 = 2.0 13 %
increase 2.76/2.3 = 20 % 2.1/2.0 = 5 %
2 clones 0.92*3 = 2.76 0.7*3 = 2.1 24 %
increase 3.22/2.76 = 17% 2.452/2.1 = 17%
3 clones 0.805*4 = 3.22 0.613*4 = 2.452 24 %

Question 1: why not reward shattering with more clones?
Question 2: why not nerf by the same percentage across the board instead of hitting 2-3 clones so hard?

Problem: as a result, there will only be a 5% difference between shattering with 1 clone and 2 clones, meaning that shattering with 1 clone out will be the unequivocal best decision and spawning another clone will be a misplay (calculation assumes melee range yadayada).

Solution: make Mind Wrack scale more/better, especially between 1 and 2 clones.

Will x-post to pvp forums because it pertains to the pvp team rather than the systems (pve) team I believe.

// Yanim

Comments

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 IMPORTANT
    There is an unlisted 15% damage bonus when shattering with 2 and 3 illusions

    From wiki page, this might still be a thing so shattering 2 and 3 might be slightly better, who knows?

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

    (OP patch notes used boosted numbers)

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

    (OP patch notes used boosted numbers)

    I did think about this but doesn't matter much either way, if postpatch numbers in patchnotes are correct the 1->2 clone diff is what i outlined above and the problem remains.

    // Yanim

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Quadox.7834 IMPORTANT
    There is an unlisted 15% damage bonus when shattering with 2 and 3 illusions

    From wiki page, this might still be a thing so shattering 2 and 3 might be slightly better, who knows?

    The thing on the wiki means that the tooltip says 1.15, 0.8, 0.7 while in reality it is (or was) 1.15, 0.92, 0.805
    A bit confusing atm but the 1->2 clone scaling problem exists either way.

    // Yanim

  • @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

    (OP patch notes used boosted numbers)

    I did think about this but doesn't matter much either way, if postpatch numbers in patchnotes are correct the 1->2 clone diff is what i outlined above and the problem remains.

    TBH it's always been somewhat like this way (1 clone shatter being most efficient) and I suppose it doesn't really matter when clone survivability isn't a thing in pvp - pulling 1 clone is enough in their eyes, shattering more is just for trait procs.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

    (OP patch notes used boosted numbers)

    I did think about this but doesn't matter much either way, if postpatch numbers in patchnotes are correct the 1->2 clone diff is what i outlined above and the problem remains.

    TBH it's always been somewhat like this way (1 clone shatter being most efficient) and I suppose it doesn't really matter when clone survivability isn't a thing in pvp - pulling 1 clone is enough in their eyes, shattering more is just for trait procs.

    Which is why it doesnt need to get worse, particularly not only a 5% difference.

    // Yanim

  • It's so screwed up that I'll bet they stacked the damage reduction via trait inheritance for Chrono. Twice as bad to have more than one clone!

  • @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

    (OP patch notes used boosted numbers)

    I did think about this but doesn't matter much either way, if postpatch numbers in patchnotes are correct the 1->2 clone diff is what i outlined above and the problem remains.

    TBH it's always been somewhat like this way (1 clone shatter being most efficient) and I suppose it doesn't really matter when clone survivability isn't a thing in pvp - pulling 1 clone is enough in their eyes, shattering more is just for trait procs.

    Which is why it doesnt need to get worse, particularly not only a 5% difference.

    That doesn’t really change anything I just said. 2 clone Mind Wrack has been this way (insignificant vs 1/3 clone) for a while now.

    Question 1: why not reward shattering with more clones?

    The reason why Mind Wrack does not scale linearly (suggested from the other post) is because anet decided to avoid a balance nightmare in which either 1/0 clone MW would be too weak, or 3 clone would be too strong. Having 1/2/3 clone MW deal close to the same total dmg means that anet doesn’t have to worry about players complaining about clones being easily cleaved down and ruining the mesmer’s (power-based) offensive output.

    This became a problem with chrono when it lost IP however (fyi 1 clone MW > 3 clone Split Second), hence my reason for proposing for chrono to retain its profession resource somehow.

    Problem: as a result, there will only be a 5% difference between shattering with 1 clone and 2 clones, meaning that shattering with 1 clone out will be the unequivocal best decision and spawning another clone will be a misplay (calculation assumes melee range yadayada).

    You are still rewarded that 5% more dmg, and whatever on-shatter traits taken for ‘misplaying’. You also have to consider blind/aegis/ranged shatter where 2 clone MW is simply better than 1 clone.

    Diversion is also similar, there is almost no point in shattering any clones at all besides only to proc additional traits.

    If base dmg was the main concern, then it is most efficient to use 1 clone MW’s and 3 clone Cry of Frustration’s (which scales as desired?), meaning even 3 clone MW is just as irrelevant as 2 clone. Meanwhile chrono has it tough where it ideally wants to shatter w/ as much clones as possible, but is in some gamemodes questionably unable to do so?

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

    (OP patch notes used boosted numbers)

    I did think about this but doesn't matter much either way, if postpatch numbers in patchnotes are correct the 1->2 clone diff is what i outlined above and the problem remains.

    TBH it's always been somewhat like this way (1 clone shatter being most efficient) and I suppose it doesn't really matter when clone survivability isn't a thing in pvp - pulling 1 clone is enough in their eyes, shattering more is just for trait procs.

    Which is why it doesnt need to get worse, particularly not only a 5% difference.

    That doesn’t really change anything I just said. 2 clone Mind Wrack has been this way (insignificant vs 1/3 clone) for a while now.

    Question 1: why not reward shattering with more clones?

    The reason why Mind Wrack does not scale linearly (suggested from the other post) is because anet decided to avoid a balance nightmare in which either 1/0 clone MW would be too weak, or 3 clone would be too strong. Having 1/2/3 clone MW deal close to the same total dmg means that anet doesn’t have to worry about players complaining about clones being easily cleaved down and ruining the mesmer’s (power-based) offensive output.

    This became a problem with chrono when it lost IP however (fyi 1 clone MW > 3 clone Split Second), hence my reason for proposing for chrono to retain its profession resource somehow.

    Problem: as a result, there will only be a 5% difference between shattering with 1 clone and 2 clones, meaning that shattering with 1 clone out will be the unequivocal best decision and spawning another clone will be a misplay (calculation assumes melee range yadayada).

    You are still rewarded that 5% more dmg, and whatever on-shatter traits taken for ‘misplaying’. You also have to consider blind/aegis/ranged shatter where 2 clone MW is simply better than 1 clone.

    Diversion is also similar, there is almost no point in shattering any clones at all besides only to proc additional traits.

    If base dmg was the main concern, then it is most efficient to use 1 clone MW’s and 3 clone Cry of Frustration’s (which scales as desired?), meaning even 3 clone MW is just as irrelevant as 2 clone. Meanwhile chrono has it tough where it ideally wants to shatter w/ as much clones as possible, but is in some gamemodes questionably unable to do so?

    I know this but point is it is currently 20% difference (significant/noticable) and after patch it will be a negligable 5%. Which should be fixed.

    // Yanim

  • https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82231/the-new-shatters-in-numbers

    I was the one who specifically inquired on the unlisted dmg boost in that thread.

    According that thread, the difference is already 5% and it has been for more than half a year now - just no one rarely ever paid attention to it.

    Even I devised a different pve core mesmer rotation after personally noticing >1 clone Mind Wrack wasn’t as impactful as before (3 clone MW was only 20% better than 1 clone).

    So what you’re asking for would actually count as a straight up buff, which I am not opposed to, but anet would be most likely unwilling to grant. Also considering that 3 clone MW might only be just 20% better than 1 clone, there isn’t much leeway or significance for buffing 2 clone MW in the first place.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82231/the-new-shatters-in-numbers

    I was the one who specifically inquired on the unlisted dmg boost in that thread.

    According that thread, the difference is already 5% and it has been for more than half a year now - just no one rarely ever paid attention to it.

    Even I devised a different pve core mesmer rotation after personally noticing >1 clone Mind Wrack wasn’t as impactful as before (3 clone MW was only 20% better than 1 clone).

    So what you’re asking for would actually count as a straight up buff, which I am not opposed to, but anet would be most likely unwilling to grant. Also considering that 3 clone MW might only be just 20% better than 1 clone, there isn’t much leeway or significance for buffing 2 clone MW in the first place.

    I see what you mean. It is 1.15 x 2=2.3 vs 0.8 x 3=2.4 prepatch. I will admit I have barely played at all in the last months. I would literally prefer nerfing 1-clone shatter rather than leaving it alone, just to fix the stupid scaling.

    It is so dumb that the thing most people complain about when it comes to powermes is the oneshots, and this is enabled by mirrorblade -> mindwrack i.e. shattering with 1 clone. The obvious solution to that would have been to put more damage on the 2-3 clones rather than the 1-clone, yet the opposite has been happening.

    So I guess my advice to ANet:

    • Nerf 1-clone mindwrack but keep 2-3 clones the same. This fixes scaling a bit, rewards keeping up more clones, and disincentivizes oneshots.
    • Fix the patchnotes to take into account the removal of the unlisted dmg boost half a year ago.

    // Yanim

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834
    there is alot of easy ways to fix core 1shoting, the fact that they didnt try is the fact they dont care. and they will either :
    1 ignore it and let it be or
    2 nerf everything around it and THEN nerf it to make things garbage.
    seen this behaviour in alot of other games, lazy developers do that.

  • I have to agree with this problem it's extremely illogical, already before changes i often thought pffff i get almost no reward for shattering many clones it's scales extremely bad and now it's even worse.

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    Great now I don’t even see a reason to shatter with more then one clone. Right now if not all 3 clones crit it even then it does sometimes less dmg then shattering with 2 clones and bouth crit. Now we will do less dmg with more clones. This is ridiculous.