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Increase swipe to 900 range (and you're awesome).

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  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    >

    No. Aegis can come up randomly without telegraph. Not every situation allows you to see an aegis before stealing.

    Yeah, about the same counterplay there is to unblockable steals. The only form of counterplay is legit random dodging and hope that the thief is bad.
    There's no justification of having an unblockable instant cast skill with that powerlevel, without using things like basi venom (which got unblockable added to it for this very reason.)

    You say that not every situation allows to do see aegis before stealing. Guardian has 1 passive on a 30 second CD. One active on a 42.75 second cd, and maybe a third once every 25 seconds if they are running shield and traiting for it. It's not much to look out for, and if they manage to time one of them with an instant cast ability, they should get rewarded for it.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    Through traits you can absolutely make still just HILARIOUS to read.

    Not commenting on whether this aspect of it is over powered or not. But c'mon. Does looking at that not make you chuckle?

    As a mesmer I've always hated steal because of Consume Plasma. But putting aside my biases the ability to cancel block stances, not even just punching through aegis but canceling true block stances, to be particularly offensive.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    Trashing the unblockable factor like it would never ruin anyone's survival, it's hilarious because 99% of the time someone is able to reset because of blocks regardless. The argument is flawed from the start.

    Balance is not done around the meta, it's designed around having as many options as available for the players, the players are the one for having the decision to pick something that is cheesy and requires the least effort, even in that scenario because GW2 by nature is not just an MMO like everyone tends to look at it, someone with enough of a brain can make anything work around the meta, it's just not something anyone cares about because "winning" at all cost, doesn't matter how bad they are at the game in the following.

    Im trashing the unblockable because the scenarios in which it is relevant are infinitely rarer than the situations in which the 600 range cut is relevant. One matters dozens of times in every single game. The other matters maybe once in 5 games, at best. And no, balance is done around the meta, you dont want to nerf weak options and buff strong ones.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    realistically PI needs to be nerfed.
    Power block deals LESS damage.
    has cooldown ( bugged one but untill its fixed it has cooldown )
    and is Grandmaster trait.
    grandmaster trait should be MUCHMUCHMUCH better then Major trait.
    And here is a thing for you. PB is power trait.
    so its used by POWER builds.
    POWER mesmer doesnt use staff for chaos storm
    power mesmer doesnt use pistol for p5
    power build doesnt use signet of dom.
    power mes can interrupt with F3 (38s cd)
    GS 5 ( will be 25s cd, 1/2s cast time so you have to predict casts with it )

    • offhand ( curtain/torch phantasm ) -> curtain can work, torch doesnt ever work.
      and potential mantra ( its overnerfed and gets nerfed again, its miserable to use and has low impact )
      power thief has more interrupts then power mesmer.
      and they are easy to land compared to mes.
      for example f3 is insta swipe is insta, but swipe has 500 extra range and half the cooldown AND is unblockable.
      headshot has half the casttime and twice the range off illusionary wave... etc etc

    Actually, no, it doesnt do less damage. Fun fact: The damage coefficient they showed for PI is wrong, its actually 1.5, not 2.0. Exact same damage as Power Block. PI is getting nerfed by 50%, Power Block isnt, Power Block will do twice the damage now. It does have a cooldown, but as I said, you really shouldnt be spamming interrupts. It being a Grandmaster trait doesnt mean much, especially given how lackluster DDs grandmaster traits are for combat (good for running though). Grandmaster traits shouldnt be at all better than Major traits. They should be more interesting, but thats about it.

    Right, I was talking about condi ones there. With Power, theyd use Power Mantra, Distortion, GS 5, Curtain and most importantly, sword ambush. Though the latter one is hard to use. And no, for the purposes of Power block, Mantra is not at all overnerfed. Its basically infinitely better headshot (no cast time, no travel time, can be used during other abilities and better recharge rate). Just shows you how overnerfed PI is if the better trait with the better baseline fails to function. And no, Power Mesmer has more interrupts, and they are easier to land, since Mantra is instant and has no travel time. Its like Swipe, except safer and with twice the range. Dazes for much longer, too.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    you dont give up utility for headshot

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Swipe range is the one of the softest trade-offs on game. You lose 600 range and you get unbloackable, 3dodges, dodge effects.
    If all professions got "trade-offs" of this kind or this generous, the game would be more lively.

    The degenerate

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Through traits you can absolutely make still just HILARIOUS to read.

    Not commenting on whether this aspect of it is over powered or not. But c'mon. Does looking at that not make you chuckle?

    As a mesmer I've always hated steal because of Consume Plasma. But putting aside my biases the ability to cancel block stances, not even just punching through aegis but canceling true block stances, to be particularly offensive.

    I mean yeah it is kinda crazy what steal can do but that's like putting 8 traits into it. Its also equally depressing missing steal and wasting half of them traits. I dunno tbh I mean them traits have always been there and steal alone is just a glorified shadow step and it is kind of a shame having to overload steal like this.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can see both sides and why there stance is what it is. I would hope even thief mains could see why on paper the swipe change would look like a very small trade off to players that haven't spent a lot of time on DD builds especially with regards to dp DD builds. Unblockable on addition to all the boons and other effects the swipe can give the thief or inflict on its opponent seems like a good deal even minus the range.

    On the other side of the coin long time thief players who generally rolled with bountiful theft and slight of hand don't really feel much difference in unblockable due to the aegis rip on BT and swipe CD reduction was already adequate due to SOH.
    The 1200 steal range as a way to implement their burst from THAT range was since a integral part of the playstyle of the spec thru a lot of its weapon kits that it's changed made the playstyle of those kits feel clunky comparative to what the players were accustomed to resulting in a huge loss of efficacy through certain builds.
    If those builds effectiveness weren't so heavily dependent on the long range steal than I'd agree it wasn't a heavy trade off but that isn't the case.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Through traits you can absolutely make still just HILARIOUS to read.

    Not commenting on whether this aspect of it is over powered or not. But c'mon. Does looking at that not make you chuckle?

    It's a long tooltip, but there's nothing in that lineup that is egregious. A good number of classes get those boons/access to those conditions just by using their main/offhand skills.

    As a mesmer I've always hated steal because of Consume Plasma-

    judgmental stare /s

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Yeah, about the same counterplay there is to unblockable steals. The only form of counterplay is legit random dodging and hope that the thief is bad.
    There's no justification of having an unblockable instant cast skill with that powerlevel, without using things like basi venom (which got unblockable added to it for this very reason.)

    what powerlevel? it hits you for 370 damage base if traited, dazes you for a second if traited, puts two stacks of poison on you if traited and almost always puts the thief in striking distance. It's linked above. What in that tooltip is giving it a high power level? (be wary if you say "the quickness" because that form of steal has a cast time and is blockable.)

    That's far more counterplayable than having a random block come up and save you from a burst. And if you know/care that the thief is daredevil there's nothing stopping you from forcing the thief to use swipe to stop a burst then blocking all you want.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    And no, balance is done around the meta, you dont want to nerf weak options and buff strong ones.

    The incoming patch is the clear proof that they don't care about the meta and shouldn't either, it's up to people getting better with the alternative options rather seek the easiest options due to the inability to use many particular skills properly.

    This patch barely affects me and it's quite hilarious to find out, because everything else that wasn't particularly used still has seen changes which means that whatever I was doing was already up to part enough with the new direction to begin with and that the meta is just an irrelevant piece to the subject, people are still gonna cheese and the 1% better at the game will do the more complex plays themselves. That's the sad part of the playerbase.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132
    And no, balance is done around the meta, you dont want to nerf weak options and buff strong ones.

    The incoming patch is the clear proof that they don't care about the meta and shouldn't either, it's up to people getting better with the alternative options rather seek the easiest options due to the inability to use many particular skills properly.

    This patch barely affects me and it's quite hilarious to find out, because everything else that wasn't particularly used still has seen changes which means that whatever I was doing was already up to part enough with the new direction to begin with and that the meta is just an irrelevant piece to the subject, people are still gonna cheese and the 1% better at the game will do the more complex plays themselves. That's the sad part of the playerbase.

    Uh, no, the incoming patch is clear proof that they do care about the meta, otherwise they wouldnt be doing this balance patch in the first place. I mean obviously, meta is nothing more than "the best things you can do". If something isnt meta, it means its not good.

    Well, no, it more likely means whatever you were doing was so bad that it didnt even get hits among the bad stuff. While also not having random hits to it for no reason (like Pulmonary Impact did, which is now going to be a hilariously useless trait that I wish they would just not nerf it and see if its going to viable (spoiler: Even with lower damage accross the board, it wont), and buff it when they notice its not.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    "Was so bad."
    "the best things you can do".

    I was eating 90% of the meta.
    I was doing better at a higher cost of my competence.

    Meta in gaming isn't the best thing you can do, it's the thing you can do the easiest and in this game it's a whole other level but thankfully not just an MMO""RPG"" because this game would already be dead. You can try and argue, it's 110% fact that people prefer being lazy and quick than having anything useful to a team or remotely skillful, the only thing ever accomplishing any form of slight teamwork was the Scourge/FB times and rightfully because it was easy also. I've had my fun hearing that condition revenant was "broken" from the """"best players"""" when it's time to complain about anything but their mistakes.

    The definition of random is something you can't predict, that's not the case with "Pulmonary Impact" if you read the tooltip slowly. The only random thing in this game is critical hits and loot drops, with weapon strength also being static next patch, combat will be even less random.

    Everyone's prediction, including yours is off, way off. Nobody seems to be able to grasp the future of this game even though that was how it was pre-pof and even I wasn't there. Pre-Pof had cooldowns even higher with less damage, people's assumption are as disproportionate, just as badly as the amount of posts that complains about profession specific nerfs random than getting the entire context.

    I don't have to repeat for the hundred time the flawed mentality behind metagaming, it's always the user fault for ruining everything because of it. Call it memes if you want, but that's also wrong in the end of itself. Metagaming is the actual meme and it's only by this game core design that it's still somehow alive, not having FOTM cancer at every patches.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone here trying to argue that swipe is good has no clue how this game works rofl

    Id trade it for steal anyday without even questioning

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    Regardless of what's added to swipe due to the range not fitting with the playstyle of the majority of thief wrapons the end result will feel clunky compared to steal.should never altered the aspects of the skill that fit so well with thiefs playstyle, I'm sure they could have done something different as a trade off. Most of the players arguing for swipe don't even play the class which is humorous.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132
    "Was so bad."
    "the best things you can do".

    I was eating 90% of the meta.
    I was doing better at a higher cost of my competence.

    Meta in gaming isn't the best thing you can do, it's the thing you can do the easiest and in this game it's a whole other level but thankfully not just an MMO""RPG"" because this game would already be dead. You can try and argue, it's 110% fact that people prefer being lazy and quick than having anything useful to a team or remotely skillful, the only thing ever accomplishing any form of slight teamwork was the Scourge/FB times and rightfully because it was easy also. I've had my fun hearing that condition revenant was "broken" from the """"best players"""" when it's time to complain about anything but their mistakes.

    The definition of random is something you can't predict, that's not the case with "Pulmonary Impact" if you read the tooltip slowly. The only random thing in this game is critical hits and loot drops, with weapon strength also being static next patch, combat will be even less random.

    Everyone's prediction, including yours is off, way off. Nobody seems to be able to grasp the future of this game even though that was how it was pre-pof and even I wasn't there. Pre-Pof had cooldowns even higher with less damage, people's assumption are as disproportionate, just as badly as the amount of posts that complains about profession specific nerfs random than getting the entire context.

    I don't have to repeat for the hundred time the flawed mentality behind metagaming, it's always the user fault for ruining everything because of it. Call it memes if you want, but that's also wrong in the end of itself. Metagaming is the actual meme and it's only by this game core design that it's still somehow alive, not having FOTM cancer at every patches.

    If you did, good for you, exceptions prove the rule as we say in german.

    No, Meta by definition is the best thing you can do. Its NOT the easiest thing you can do. That is an entirely different category. There is a reason why the meta is usually created by the highest level of competition, where people dont really care if what theyre playing is hard or not (and why in league for example, the meta basically never has Annie, a very easy character, but currently always had Akali, a really, really hard character).

    I was pretty sure that it was clear that what I meant is that some things got nerfed for no reason, and that your stuff wasnt. Ontop of not being good enough to be worth nerfing.

    Actually, thats wrong. Pre-POF damage was way higher than what we will have after these nerfs. Power damage, specifically. Condi damage was only slightly higher. Cooldowns were also way lower. This will be lower damage than any point since the Trait rework prior to HoT.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132
    "Was so bad."
    "the best things you can do".

    I was eating 90% of the meta.
    I was doing better at a higher cost of my competence.

    Meta in gaming isn't the best thing you can do, it's the thing you can do the easiest and in this game it's a whole other level but thankfully not just an MMO""RPG"" because this game would already be dead. You can try and argue, it's 110% fact that people prefer being lazy and quick than having anything useful to a team or remotely skillful, the only thing ever accomplishing any form of slight teamwork was the Scourge/FB times and rightfully because it was easy also. I've had my fun hearing that condition revenant was "broken" from the """"best players"""" when it's time to complain about anything but their mistakes.

    The definition of random is something you can't predict, that's not the case with "Pulmonary Impact" if you read the tooltip slowly. The only random thing in this game is critical hits and loot drops, with weapon strength also being static next patch, combat will be even less random.

    Everyone's prediction, including yours is off, way off. Nobody seems to be able to grasp the future of this game even though that was how it was pre-pof and even I wasn't there. Pre-Pof had cooldowns even higher with less damage, people's assumption are as disproportionate, just as badly as the amount of posts that complains about profession specific nerfs random than getting the entire context.

    I don't have to repeat for the hundred time the flawed mentality behind metagaming, it's always the user fault for ruining everything because of it. Call it memes if you want, but that's also wrong in the end of itself. Metagaming is the actual meme and it's only by this game core design that it's still somehow alive, not having FOTM cancer at every patches.

    If you did, good for you, exceptions prove the rule as we say in german.

    No, Meta by definition is the best thing you can do. Its NOT the easiest thing you can do. That is an entirely different category. There is a reason why the meta is usually created by the highest level of competition, where people dont really care if what theyre playing is hard or not (and why in league for example, the meta basically never has Annie, a very easy character, but currently always had Akali, a really, really hard character).

    I was pretty sure that it was clear that what I meant is that some things got nerfed for no reason, and that your stuff wasnt. Ontop of not being good enough to be worth nerfing.

    Actually, thats wrong. Pre-POF damage was way higher than what we will have after these nerfs. Power damage, specifically. Condi damage was only slightly higher. Cooldowns were also way lower. This will be lower damage than any point since the Trait rework prior to HoT.

    According to the definition, the "most effective tactic available", which means that even if we "find" something that is a little more effective at the cost of more skill, it still won't be played because factually the latter is still easier, even if it's for less which is what GW2 Metabattle consist of anyway by judging the playerbase train. Your assumptions are also wrong and unclear, everything got nerfed even those who didn't deserve which proves they don't care about the meta, they don't care about any of the players opinion unless it's factually true to their vision, they've shaped the game ever since and only overpowered anomalies were changed, not overtuned. It's also a good thing that they don't care because players have been spoiled since the start with elite specs, getting used to designs that have no place in the game. (Such as Daredevil having Steal instead of Swipe.)

    Saying that because it's mostly "untouched" doesn't mean I haven't suffered from the global damage reduction or that it was underpowered to begin with, like said I've had my fair share of complains with people who are NOT vocal minority saying that my gameplay is BROKEN and EASY anyway where as if it was factually true, we'd see more people play it. By the actions of the balance team it means I've been having a good time with what they consider good designs and with the scale of difficulty that comes along it, in fact I see a lot of foreshadowing of my gameplay becoming overpowered which it won't be as people still can't adapt to it.

    I meant Pre-HoT. Not Pre-PoF, I was there before Pre-PoF.

    League is also a bad example, keeping the game "fresh" by adding stuff without consideration of the rest, it's a chaotic mess that I'd rather avoid having here again.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    Unblockable steal is good cause of all of the aegis being thrown around by firebrands and mirages. Not to mention classes like gs ranger rely on the block because we can't trade very effectively with any of our other skills.

    It's funny that the 600 range tradeoff received the unblockable buff in exchange.

    Holosmiths still don't have a tradeoff (overheating doesn't count lmao). They should honestly just lose access to their toolbelt skills.

    Soulbeast is getting gutted with the removal of our second pet and no buff there to make up for it.

    And Firebrand tradeoff is...?
    And Weaver tradeoff is...?

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Unblockable steal is good cause of all of the aegis being thrown around by firebrands and mirages. Not to mention classes like gs ranger rely on the block because we can't trade very effectively with any of our other skills.

    It's funny that the 600 range tradeoff received the unblockable buff in exchange.

    Holosmiths still don't have a tradeoff (overheating doesn't count lmao). They should honestly just lose access to their toolbelt skills.

    Soulbeast is getting gutted with the removal of our second pet and no buff there to make up for it.

    And Firebrand tradeoff is...?
    And Weaver tradeoff is...?

    As it turns out Steal goes through Aegis. (Which is a terrible design.)

    Firebrand doesn't have the simplicity I guess.
    Weaver neither have simplicity I guess.

    In the next coming patch both are gonna have less stability and self carry buttons at least.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Unblockable steal is good cause of all of the aegis being thrown around by firebrands and mirages. Not to mention classes like gs ranger rely on the block because we can't trade very effectively with any of our other skills.

    It's funny that the 600 range tradeoff received the unblockable buff in exchange.

    Holosmiths still don't have a tradeoff (overheating doesn't count lmao). They should honestly just lose access to their toolbelt skills.

    Soulbeast is getting gutted with the removal of our second pet and no buff there to make up for it.

    And Firebrand tradeoff is...?

    firebrand should never have been in this game.

    but a tradeoff is they lose access to renewed focus

    reasons for lore is that they focused so much on reading tomes they neglected meditation.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132
    "Was so bad."
    "the best things you can do".

    I was eating 90% of the meta.
    I was doing better at a higher cost of my competence.

    Meta in gaming isn't the best thing you can do, it's the thing you can do the easiest and in this game it's a whole other level but thankfully not just an MMO""RPG"" because this game would already be dead. You can try and argue, it's 110% fact that people prefer being lazy and quick than having anything useful to a team or remotely skillful, the only thing ever accomplishing any form of slight teamwork was the Scourge/FB times and rightfully because it was easy also. I've had my fun hearing that condition revenant was "broken" from the """"best players"""" when it's time to complain about anything but their mistakes.

    The definition of random is something you can't predict, that's not the case with "Pulmonary Impact" if you read the tooltip slowly. The only random thing in this game is critical hits and loot drops, with weapon strength also being static next patch, combat will be even less random.

    Everyone's prediction, including yours is off, way off. Nobody seems to be able to grasp the future of this game even though that was how it was pre-pof and even I wasn't there. Pre-Pof had cooldowns even higher with less damage, people's assumption are as disproportionate, just as badly as the amount of posts that complains about profession specific nerfs random than getting the entire context.

    I don't have to repeat for the hundred time the flawed mentality behind metagaming, it's always the user fault for ruining everything because of it. Call it memes if you want, but that's also wrong in the end of itself. Metagaming is the actual meme and it's only by this game core design that it's still somehow alive, not having FOTM cancer at every patches.

    If you did, good for you, exceptions prove the rule as we say in german.

    No, Meta by definition is the best thing you can do. Its NOT the easiest thing you can do. That is an entirely different category. There is a reason why the meta is usually created by the highest level of competition, where people dont really care if what theyre playing is hard or not (and why in league for example, the meta basically never has Annie, a very easy character, but currently always had Akali, a really, really hard character).

    I was pretty sure that it was clear that what I meant is that some things got nerfed for no reason, and that your stuff wasnt. Ontop of not being good enough to be worth nerfing.

    Actually, thats wrong. Pre-POF damage was way higher than what we will have after these nerfs. Power damage, specifically. Condi damage was only slightly higher. Cooldowns were also way lower. This will be lower damage than any point since the Trait rework prior to HoT.

    According to the definition, the "most effective tactic available", which means that even if we "find" something that is a little more effective at the cost of more skill, it still won't be played because factually the latter is still easier, even if it's for less which is what GW2 Metabattle consist of anyway by judging the playerbase train. Your assumptions are also wrong and unclear, everything got nerfed even those who didn't deserve which proves they don't care about the meta, they don't care about any of the players opinion unless it's factually true to their vision, they've shaped the game ever since and only overpowered anomalies were changed, not overtuned. It's also a good thing that they don't care because players have been spoiled since the start with elite specs, getting used to designs that have no place in the game. (Such as Daredevil having Steal instead of Swipe.)

    Saying that because it's mostly "untouched" doesn't mean I haven't suffered from the global damage reduction or that it was underpowered to begin with, like said I've had my fair share of complains with people who are NOT vocal minority saying that my gameplay is BROKEN and EASY anyway where as if it was factually true, we'd see more people play it. By the actions of the balance team it means I've been having a good time with what they consider good designs and with the scale of difficulty that comes along it, in fact I see a lot of foreshadowing of my gameplay becoming overpowered which it won't be as people still can't adapt to it.

    I meant Pre-HoT. Not Pre-PoF, I was there before Pre-PoF.

    League is also a bad example, keeping the game "fresh" by adding stuff without consideration of the rest, it's a chaotic mess that I'd rather avoid having here again.

    Incorrect. If you find something that is more effective at the cost of more skill, it will immediately be flocked to, while the slightly less effective build will languish. As I said, meta is defined by the best players for whom a slight difference in skill required does not make a difference, while others are likely to simply follow what is called the best build. Why do you think old D/P Thief for a long time was a whole lot more popular than S/D thief, despite only being slightly better, but significantly harder? This is why.

    No, they are correct and clear. The fact that they primarily balanced the things that were meta, and otherwise mostly hit things that in an environment where the meta was decimated had potential to become broken as well is as crystal clear an indication that meta is central to their balance as you can get. Also funny that you say that Daredevil having steal has "no place in the game", when it was much better designed when it had that, and in fact one of several viable choices. Its not like early Chrono or Mirage that literally had no tradeoff and no reason to pick anything else.

    Sore losers call anything "broken" or "easy". Just ask P/P thieves, Deadeye Rifle Thieves, Shortbow core Ranger or Nade Engineers. However, the fact that those builds relatively speaking were practically not nerfed tells you everything you need to know about how bad they were, and the fact that as a result, yeah, they wouldnt taken a hard nerf. It has nothing to do with good design. Its exclusively about the fact that your build was so bad it was not worth nerfing. Just like DE Rifle Thief was. Which Id hardly call good design either (though for opposite reasons of others).

    And Pre-HoT was also higher damage. It was only lower damage prior to the Trait rework. Which was something like a full year prior to HoT. Even then Im not sure that damage was lower back then, given that we had builds like Eviscerate Warrior around back then. But hey, at least its somewhere in that ballpark.

    League is considerably more balanced than most games can claim. Its hardly a chaotic mess, even if occasionally champ releases are a bit borked.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 D/P died the day Exhaustion was introduced, too much management for casuals. Still was played by "good" players. Took another "motivational" patch to show people that it was still alive and well until Swipe was read and be claims of the dead of Daredevil, another senseless amount of whining.

    Again with the "not nerfed, must be bad." shows how clueless you are of Revenant as a whole. It's not even worth talking about since you insist with blind atrocious claims, I have evidence that your statements are bogus and that's that, GW2 meta is an illusion at best.

    Player skill circumvent the flaws or meta slaves follow random curators, no meta build was ever immortal in this game with proper coordination and thinking, only a crutch for the weaker and that's the only fact to remember. The way you look at this game like it's turn based is the reason why proper theorycrafting is a rare ability and praised upon because unlike what many thinks, Anet doesn't come up with random ideas, they have designs to follow that rarely anyone ever discover which is also another sad part, you're spoiled with Steal and Steal is all you know, never you'd learn to play with Swipe even if you had to so you complain about it and bring up even more flaws as to why Steal is overtuned in the end and why it shouldn't be a thing with Daredevil.

    Saying that Pre-Hot wasn't good times is like saying after-Pof is better because it isn't bunker meta anymore. /Of course/ it was damage yet still not like todays scale to base HP, that's how you kept the game from being an endless boring loop until that damage was out of touch then bloated above the bunker meta, Pre-Hot cooldowns were still higher and more valuable and that's what we care about in this patch, they're still lower than that time yet damage is remarkably fixed back to more reasonable levels, simple.

    To point out at you once again, there were all nerfed. I was barely touched because I tell you that those nerfs don't affect my playstyle even if I am forced to run with it, get it yet? Probably not. Meta meta, just meta. It's automatically bad.

    Being so stuck up to the point where it's a meme to counter the meta is absurd anyway, most "good" players are elitists without a purpose, end of story.

    To claim that league is balanced at all or more balanced than GW2 sPvP could be, I'd like to remind you of how the game is designed and how stats building in any competitive game is not a good design at all for competitive activities. That speaks for WvW itself anyway, will never be balanced and never was. MOBA's have snowball mechanics that are 10 times worst than what GW2 could ever wish for itself and this is why it gets furthermore toxic as well. Throws included.

    People throw in sPvP because they are clueless/lazy/whiny. In League, whenever things starts going wrong for just a few times, it's already over and a long boring loss that can be over 45 minutes of wasted time, wonder why people prefer throwing altogether, knowing in GW2 it's only 15 minutes to pull off anything, wanting players to do more for an entire hour is horrible.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 D/P died the day Exhaustion was introduced, too much management for casuals. Still was played by "good" players. Took another "motivational" patch to show people that it was still alive and well until Swipe was read and be claims of the dead of Daredevil, another senseless amount of whining.

    No, D/P actually died the day Pulmonary Impact was overnerfed. At which point it was dropped by top players, and everyone else, at the same time. And no, D/P was not played by good players once Pulmonary Impact was overnerfed, then they switched to S/D, like everyone else. And the problem with Swipe wasnt that it killed D/P, D/P was already dead. Its that it was a random nerf to an already very underpowered build noone was playing, that also ensured that it would never come back in the future in the form it existed (spoiler: It didnt).

    Again with the "not nerfed, must be bad." shows how clueless you are of Revenant as a whole. It's not even worth talking about since you insist with blind atrocious claims, I have evidence that your statements are bogus and that's that, GW2 meta is an illusion at best.

    No, it shows I understand the basic concepts of meta and balance. And you have no evidence at all, else you wouldve shown any. All you have is your beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence proving you wrong.

    Player skill circumvent the flaws or meta slaves follow random curators, no meta build was ever immortal in this game with proper coordination and thinking, only a crutch for the weaker and that's the only fact to remember. The way you look at this game like it's turn based is the reason why proper theorycrafting is a rare ability and praised upon because unlike what many thinks, Anet doesn't come up with random ideas, they have designs to follow that rarely anyone ever discover which is also another sad part, you're spoiled with Steal and Steal is all you know, never you'd learn to play with Swipe even if you had to so you complain about it and bring up even more flaws as to why Steal is overtuned in the end and why it shouldn't be a thing with Daredevil.

    Of course no meta build was unbeatable. It was simply the best build and every other build was worse. Thats all meta means. Its not "a crutch for the weaker player" (besides being complete nonsense, elitism much?). Its simply the best build, and everyone who wants to play the best build, plays the meta build. Thats just how it goes. The next part is just ... rambling. I have no idea what youre trying to say, though I know this much, people have learned to play with Swipe. Its not hard. Its just Steal, but worse. And you might argue that steal is overtuned (though I would easily refute that), but that doesnt change the fact that Daredevil with steal existed, and was already outclassed by core thief.

    Saying that Pre-Hot wasn't good times is like saying after-Pof is better because it isn't bunker meta anymore. /Of course/ it was damage yet still not like todays scale to base HP, that's how you kept the game from being an endless boring loop until that damage was out of touch then bloated above the bunker meta, Pre-Hot cooldowns were still higher and more valuable and that's what we care about in this patch, they're still lower than that time yet damage is remarkably fixed back to more reasonable levels, simple.

    Again Im not sure what youre saying in the first part. Something about damage back then not being as high as now, I guess? To which Ill simply answer: It was higher. It has been higher ever since the trait rework about a year prior to HoT. Pre-HoT cooldowns were also lower. This part shouldnt be surprising, since then all good cooldowns, if they saw any change, were nerfed. Sure they mightve lowered cooldown on some bad skills but those still see no play.

    To point out at you once again, there were all nerfed. I was barely touched because I tell you that those nerfs don't affect my playstyle even if I am forced to run with it, get it yet? Probably not. Meta meta, just meta. It's automatically bad.

    Not really. I mean sure, they got minor damage nerfs (well, P/P got big ones, Rifle Deadeye got none that matter, Shortbow condi Ranger got minor ones), but theyre ultimately just way better off than anything else. And I dont know what you mean by "those nerfs dont affect my playstyle". Because either your build had damage nerfed, and you simply mean that the playstyle doesnt change even if the damage is lower (spoiler alert: that is true for all builds), or you mean that your build didnt get nerfed at all, in which case it mustve been really bad.

    Being so stuck up to the point where it's a meme to counter the meta is absurd anyway, most "good" players are elitists without a purpose, end of story.

    If youre countering the meta, you are part of the meta. That is, if youre sufficiently good at it. D/P Thief is pretty much a meta counter, and thats part of the meta. If your build fails to be meta, it simply isnt good enough. Thats all there is to it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Unblockable steal is good cause of all of the aegis being thrown around by firebrands and mirages. Not to mention classes like gs ranger rely on the block because we can't trade very effectively with any of our other skills.

    It's funny that the 600 range tradeoff received the unblockable buff in exchange.

    Holosmiths still don't have a tradeoff (overheating doesn't count lmao). They should honestly just lose access to their toolbelt skills.

    Soulbeast is getting gutted with the removal of our second pet and no buff there to make up for it.

    And Firebrand tradeoff is...?
    And Weaver tradeoff is...?

    It would be good given the Aegis being thrown around, if it werent for the fact that all thieves have to run trickery, and all thieves have to run bountiful Theft within the Trickery Traitline. However, they do, and as a result, Steal already doesnt care for Aegis, so the unblockable literally doesnt do anything in those situations. Thats why they gave that "buff", because they knew it was a completely useless "buff".

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 People statement aren't beliefs.

    Once again failing to take in the information. Let me really simplify it for you.

    Patch = Overall Damage nerf to //everyone//.

    No skill nerf doesn't mean it was bad, because of the global changes that affects //everyone//.

    Because the damage is enough for the changes = was well designed from the start and doesn't need changes, again not because it's bad, it's because a damage nerf is enough.

    It's not rocket science.

    Edit: You can't be part of the meta when the meta is in denial.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 People statement aren't beliefs.

    Once again failing to take in the information. Let me really simplify it for you.

    Patch = Overall Damage nerf to //everyone//.

    No skill nerf doesn't mean it was bad, because of the global changes that affects //everyone//.

    Because the damage is enough for the changes = was well designed from the start and doesn't need changes, again not because it's bad, it's because a damage nerf is enough.

    It's not rocket science.

    Edit: You can't be part of the meta when the meta is in denial.

    Actually, yes, those are beliefs. Also, is your counterexample to the meta to show yourself playing ... the meta weaver build? I must be missing something here. Because that makes no sense.

    Again, you are rambling and I simply cant tell what youre trying to say. Lets see. Oh I see. So what youre trying to argue is that your build got damage nerfs, but no other changes, so it was supposedly well designed. Just to be clear, you are aware that almost everything only got damage nerfs, right? There isnt much that had its functionality changed, and most of the functionality changes were buffs. The logic also fails because Permastealth oneshot builds only got damage nerfs, and theyre anything but well designed.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132

    You don't even know who's playing and you want me to take you seriously, not looking good.

    No I don't play Weaver, it was the most lazy thing there is in the meta. Based on what I've said before you should /know/ what I do, it's clear you're not following.

    No, everything got nerfed. Read the whole balance post, not just your own. Small hint: Amulets

    There won't be such thing as a permastealth when there is an overall increase in cooldowns, calling on one shots is even more hilarious because it's almost as if you forgot the co-efficient changes as well.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132

    You don't even know who's playing and you want me to take you seriously, not looking good.

    No I don't play Weaver, it was the most lazy thing there is in the meta. Based on what I've said before you should /know/ what I do, it's clear you're not following.

    What you say is mostly incoherent rambling, its hard enough to follow the words themselves. Most I could gather is something about you being extremely elitist and having a hilariously warped sense of self.

    No, everything got nerfed. Read the whole balance post, not just your own. Small hint: Amulets

    There are a couple builds that didnt get nerfed, but I digress. The point however is, almost everything that got nerfed only got damage nerfs. Which makes your idea of "my build only got its damage nerfed so it must be well designed" nothing more than complete rubbish.

    There won't be such thing as a permastealth when there is an overall increase in cooldowns, calling on one shots is even more hilarious because it's almost as if you forgot the co-efficient changes as well.

    I mean there was no such thing as permastealth right now. There will however be the same style of "sneak up, and then burst". It got its damage nerfed, but let me remind you that your argument was that your builds were well designed because "They only got their damage nerfed".

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has 2 good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has 2 good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

    I see plenty D/P thiefs running "useless" 600 range swipe. with "useless" 2k dmg pulminary impacts.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    Yah lol daredevil has lots of playable stuff. S/p, SA dp, condition thief, staff has been useable and I bet sd daredevil is gonna be big when they nerf s/p(though I already see it plenty often so maybe add that in too). Plz buff though guys

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    Yah lol daredevil has lots of playable stuff. S/p, SA dp, condition thief, staff has been useable and I bet sd daredevil is gonna be big when they nerf s/p(though I already see it plenty often so maybe add that in too). Plz buff though guys

    thief has the biggest ammout of playable builds of any class, and I bet there is ALOT of "OK" builds like some weird dagger/dagger condi builds that could be made to work.
    they should focus on fixing poopy specs like scourge/druid/chrono instead of touching daredevil.
    DONT FIX WHATS NOT BROKEN

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    DONT FIX WHATS NOT BROKEN

    That's what most of the thief mains want but we got people asking to nerf swipe in this very thread (and another general nerf thread) so-
    I guess we get more reworks, lol?

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has 2 good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

    I see plenty D/P thiefs running "useless" 600 range swipe. with "useless" 2k dmg pulminary impacts.

    I mean youll see them same you see Rifle DEs, Pistol/Pistol Thieves or Grenade Engineers. Not everyone plays to win, after all. However, I should make a note here: Even if youre a glass cannon, you wont take 2k damage from Pulmonary Impact. Like, at all. Even a glass cannon build will fail to do more than 1.5k damage with Pulmonary Impact while targetting another glass cannon. And 1.5k for 4 initiative is pathetic. Youre legit better off spamming Shadow Shot or Heartseeker. Which is why you instead simply dont play D/P Thief with Pulmonary Impact. Its trash. Its so trash that even if it wasnt nerfed at all in this new balance patch, it would still be trash. Instead its getting nerfed by 50% when most things are getting nerfed by 33%, and Power Block, already a vastly superior trait despite its ICD, is not getting any damage nerf at all.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has 2 good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

    I see plenty D/P thiefs running "useless" 600 range swipe. with "useless" 2k dmg pulminary impacts.

    I mean youll see them same you see Rifle DEs, Pistol/Pistol Thieves or Grenade Engineers. Not everyone plays to win, after all. However, I should make a note here: Even if youre a glass cannon, you wont take 2k damage from Pulmonary Impact. Like, at all. Even a glass cannon build will fail to do more than 1.5k damage with Pulmonary Impact while targetting another glass cannon. And 1.5k for 4 initiative is pathetic. Youre legit better off spamming Shadow Shot or Heartseeker. Which is why you instead simply dont play D/P Thief with Pulmonary Impact. Its trash. Its so trash that even if it wasnt nerfed at all in this new balance patch, it would still be trash. Instead its getting nerfed by 50% when most things are getting nerfed by 33%, and Power Block, already a vastly superior trait despite its ICD, is not getting any damage nerf at all.

    Power block is GRANDMASTER trait.
    and you are missing the point, dealing that 2k damage is a BONUS, you dont interrupt to deal 2k dmg.
    you interrupt to interrupt, and if you have PI it also deals 2k dmg.
    same way nobody playing power mirage will waste F3 for example just to proc PB, you use CC to interrupt important skills like heals/transforms and the damage is a bonus.

    https://imgur.com/k7qjPPz -> 1,8k
    https://imgur.com/722T8aX -> 1,9k
    enemy low toughtness class ( ele ) no built in toughtness.
    important note -> 0 might stacks
    0 lead attack stacks
    0 vulnerability stacks

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    Yah lol daredevil has lots of playable stuff. S/p, SA dp, condition thief, staff has been useable and I bet sd daredevil is gonna be big when they nerf s/p(though I already see it plenty often so maybe add that in too). Plz buff though guys

    SA DP does not run Daredevil (what do you think it replaced with SA). Staff has been usable as a cheese build, but disappeared. S/D will never use Daredevil. It never used it, it will never use it, especially not with Swipe, far too big of a downgrade. In reality, Daredevil currently has 1 build, S/P, which is about to disappear. The rest are non-meta, at which point we could argue that Scrapper has 3 builds (all of which are non-meta but I digress).

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    Yah lol daredevil has lots of playable stuff. S/p, SA dp, condition thief, staff has been useable and I bet sd daredevil is gonna be big when they nerf s/p(though I already see it plenty often so maybe add that in too). Plz buff though guys

    thief has the biggest ammout of playable builds of any class, and I bet there is ALOT of "OK" builds like some weird dagger/dagger condi builds that could be made to work.
    they should focus on fixing poopy specs like scourge/druid/chrono instead of touching daredevil.
    DONT FIX WHATS NOT BROKEN

    Hardly. Thief has 2 playable builds, core SA D/P, and Daredevil S/P. Both of these are about to disappear, SA D/P as it relies on burst damage for +1ing, and with burst damage being lowered and us entering a condi meta, its not going to be viable, while S/P just is getting hit too hard. But even if they werent, thats 2 builds. On the other hand, Engineer has 3, Warrior has 3, Guardian has 3 (or 4, depends on how you seperate the 2 Firebrands). Like bloody hell, Ele has 2 like thieves. Ele. The black sheep of classes ever since Celestial D/D Ele lost its stranglehold on the meta.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?
    you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?
    making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.
    i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

    S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has 2 good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

    I see plenty D/P thiefs running "useless" 600 range swipe. with "useless" 2k dmg pulminary impacts.

    I mean youll see them same you see Rifle DEs, Pistol/Pistol Thieves or Grenade Engineers. Not everyone plays to win, after all. However, I should make a note here: Even if youre a glass cannon, you wont take 2k damage from Pulmonary Impact. Like, at all. Even a glass cannon build will fail to do more than 1.5k damage with Pulmonary Impact while targetting another glass cannon. And 1.5k for 4 initiative is pathetic. Youre legit better off spamming Shadow Shot or Heartseeker. Which is why you instead simply dont play D/P Thief with Pulmonary Impact. Its trash. Its so trash that even if it wasnt nerfed at all in this new balance patch, it would still be trash. Instead its getting nerfed by 50% when most things are getting nerfed by 33%, and Power Block, already a vastly superior trait despite its ICD, is not getting any damage nerf at all.

    Power block is GRANDMASTER trait.
    and you are missing the point, dealing that 2k damage is a BONUS, you dont interrupt to deal 2k dmg.
    you interrupt to interrupt, and if you have PI it also deals 2k dmg.
    same way nobody playing power mirage will waste F3 for example just to proc PB, you use CC to interrupt important skills like heals/transforms and the damage is a bonus.

    https://imgur.com/k7qjPPz -> 1,8k
    https://imgur.com/722T8aX -> 1,9k
    enemy low toughtness class ( ele ) no built in toughtness.
    important note -> 0 might stacks
    0 lead attack stacks
    0 vulnerability stacks

    Grandmaster traits are not supposed to be better than master or adept traits. Theyre supposed to be flashier and more complicated, but not better. So that argument is already out. And Im afraid you are missing the point of the build. No, the damage isnt a bonus. Its literally the point. Your example fails on the one, very important aspect. When Mesmer uses F3, they dont put all of their weapon skills on cooldown, or lower their damage. When the Thief uses Headshot, he uses up the very resource he needs to do damage. Thats why, without Pulmonary Impact, noone ever used Headshot unless they were in literally the worst possible situations. Its also why in S/P Thief, you basically never want to use Headshot. It just kills your damage. Pulmonary Impact needs to do actual damage or the build is useless. Currently it doesnt. The build is useless.

    We were talking D/P. Not S/P. They have different weapon Strength, with Sword having higher weapon strength (which basically means slightly more damage). Im also curious why you say "0 lead attack stacks", while the second picture (the one with 1.9k damage) shows you having 8 lead attack stacks. And the first one, while taken after the lead attack stacks ran out, clearly did the damage while lead attack was still active (since youre using Trickery, and used Headshot to activate Pulmonary Impact). Still, even if we ignore that (we shouldnt, but for the sake of argument, lets), thats 2k damage for 4 initiative. That is nothing. Youre better off just using Shadow Shot, which does somewhere around 3 times the damage, for the same amount of initiative, with the same hit denial on most skills. And the added bonus of being a shadow step.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540

    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Theft with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915

    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Edit: Links dont work, not sure why. Just copypaste it in the browser.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta
    Edit: for clarification, it is the moderators who deem the builds to be meta and if trickster wasn’t ok then they wouldn’t have made it meta. Which is another reason your story is full of holes

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    Edit to your edit: Yes, it is the moderators who deem the build meta. The same moderators who rolled back the change to trickster and deemed only the bountiful theft version meta during the entirety of last year. And youre right, theyre saying its "ok". A viable variant. But theyre not saying that its better. In fact, theyre saying its worse.