Increase swipe to 900 range (and you're awesome). - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Increase swipe to 900 range (and you're awesome).

13>

Comments

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    This. Trickster has never been meta, but it works.
    Bountiful is better in most situations.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Man this is the most elite pvp meta discussion on the forums thief buffs plz

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

    Im kitten at thief so take it with a grain of salt but I found more value and more success with CDR trait.
    getting daggerstorm more often is a huge deal, expecially since you combine it with poison field to vomit poison,cripple and bleed.
    and all the rest ofc too, seems like a nobrainer to take trickery trait when you are using 3 trick abilities, unless very specific case where you have to steal specific boons.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

    Im kitten at thief so take it with a grain of salt but I found more value and more success with CDR trait.
    getting daggerstorm more often is a huge deal, expecially since you combine it with poison field to vomit poison,cripple and bleed.
    and all the rest ofc too, seems like a nobrainer to take trickery trait when you are using 3 trick abilities, unless very specific case where you have to steal specific boons.

    Yah nice dude happy to help. Most experienced thief’s I’ve talked to and even the moderator for meta battle have claimed trickster to definitely be about same tier to bountiful theft, so it was just a matter of time to see it especially on condition thief mostly because yeah if it’s condition thief meta more condition clear the better, but tbh condi thief kind of needs tricks to stay alive and mobile, plus they aren’t taking slight of hand any more so no need to steal stability for daze anymore.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

    I dont get it, why do you keep lying? Youve been shown repeatedly that there is evidence that proves youre lying. You gain nothing from lying, noone believes your lies. As the history of the page shows, it was never changed to bountiful theft. Because the meta build always was bountiful theft. It always told you to pick Bountiful theft, and didnt even suggest Trickster as a variant. Then at some point, some third party edited it to be Trickster. This was incorrect to the point that it got the administrators to roll back the page and then prevent non-administrators from editting, so that no joker could change it to the incorrect Trickster variant. And as a result, it went back to recommending the correct bountiful theft build, which it does to this day. And yes, even now it tells you to play Bountiful Theft. Trickster is only a variant and a less recommended one. If they wanted you to pick trickster, they would show trickster as the default. They dont.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you aren't responding to something I've said can you trim me from the quotes so I don't get like 30 notifications and they're all literally nothing.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

    I dont get it, why do you keep lying? Youve been shown repeatedly that there is evidence that proves youre lying. You gain nothing from lying, noone believes your lies. As the history of the page shows, it was never changed to bountiful theft. Because the meta build always was bountiful theft. It always told you to pick Bountiful theft, and didnt even suggest Trickster as a variant. Then at some point, some third party edited it to be Trickster. This was incorrect to the point that it got the administrators to roll back the page and then prevent non-administrators from editting, so that no joker could change it to the incorrect Trickster variant. And as a result, it went back to recommending the correct bountiful theft build, which it does to this day. And yes, even now it tells you to play Bountiful Theft. Trickster is only a variant and a less recommended one. If they wanted you to pick trickster, they would show trickster as the default. They dont.

    Clearly all speculation. Congrats dude you looked up something on their history but the fact remains, even if there was an incident it doesn’t change the fact that trickster was meta. The real reason it isn’t listed as only one is because there are lots of variants, but the most popular one which is with 3 tricks was most popular with trickster though it’s also possible to play that with bountiful theft. I personally in this new meta would actually be about split 50/50 on trickster but it was 100% the meta at the time and you can look on stream basically every condition thief worth mentioning was playing rfi with trickster 80% of the time.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Through traits you can absolutely make still just HILARIOUS to read.

    Not commenting on whether this aspect of it is over powered or not. But c'mon. Does looking at that not make you chuckle?

    As a mesmer I've always hated steal because of Consume Plasma. But putting aside my biases the ability to cancel block stances, not even just punching through aegis but canceling true block stances, to be particularly offensive.

    Yeah dude. Some ppl have made good arguments for steal being the strongest skill in the game. Theif is full of damage mods and stuff and a lot are for steal, like it’s insane.
    Also sry about spam

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

    I dont get it, why do you keep lying? Youve been shown repeatedly that there is evidence that proves youre lying. You gain nothing from lying, noone believes your lies. As the history of the page shows, it was never changed to bountiful theft. Because the meta build always was bountiful theft. It always told you to pick Bountiful theft, and didnt even suggest Trickster as a variant. Then at some point, some third party edited it to be Trickster. This was incorrect to the point that it got the administrators to roll back the page and then prevent non-administrators from editting, so that no joker could change it to the incorrect Trickster variant. And as a result, it went back to recommending the correct bountiful theft build, which it does to this day. And yes, even now it tells you to play Bountiful Theft. Trickster is only a variant and a less recommended one. If they wanted you to pick trickster, they would show trickster as the default. They dont.

    Clearly all speculation. Congrats dude you looked up something on their history but the fact remains, even if there was an incident it doesn’t change the fact that trickster was meta. The real reason it isn’t listed as only one is because there are lots of variants, but the most popular one which is with 3 tricks was most popular with trickster though it’s also possible to play that with bountiful theft. I personally in this new meta would actually be about split 50/50 on trickster but it was 100% the meta at the time and you can look on stream basically every condition thief worth mentioning was playing rfi with trickster 80% of the time.

    Let me put it as bluntly as possible. You have nothing to show for Condi Thief running Trickster being meta. Metabattle showed the bountiful theft version being meta. If you look at youtube vids people make, they were all running Bountiful Theft. If you watched MATs or streams at the time, they all ran bountiful theft. Noone ran Trickster. Now with Bountiful theft being nerfed, you could maybe make a case for trickster being better now, but now, and any time it was meta, it was bountiful theft.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

    I dont get it, why do you keep lying? Youve been shown repeatedly that there is evidence that proves youre lying. You gain nothing from lying, noone believes your lies. As the history of the page shows, it was never changed to bountiful theft. Because the meta build always was bountiful theft. It always told you to pick Bountiful theft, and didnt even suggest Trickster as a variant. Then at some point, some third party edited it to be Trickster. This was incorrect to the point that it got the administrators to roll back the page and then prevent non-administrators from editting, so that no joker could change it to the incorrect Trickster variant. And as a result, it went back to recommending the correct bountiful theft build, which it does to this day. And yes, even now it tells you to play Bountiful Theft. Trickster is only a variant and a less recommended one. If they wanted you to pick trickster, they would show trickster as the default. They dont.

    Clearly all speculation. Congrats dude you looked up something on their history but the fact remains, even if there was an incident it doesn’t change the fact that trickster was meta. The real reason it isn’t listed as only one is because there are lots of variants, but the most popular one which is with 3 tricks was most popular with trickster though it’s also possible to play that with bountiful theft. I personally in this new meta would actually be about split 50/50 on trickster but it was 100% the meta at the time and you can look on stream basically every condition thief worth mentioning was playing rfi with trickster 80% of the time.

    Let me put it as bluntly as possible. You have nothing to show for Condi Thief running Trickster being meta. Metabattle showed the bountiful theft version being meta. If you look at youtube vids people make, they were all running Bountiful Theft. If you watched MATs or streams at the time, they all ran bountiful theft. Noone ran Trickster. Now with Bountiful theft being nerfed, you could maybe make a case for trickster being better now, but now, and any time it was meta, it was bountiful theft.

    Really because at the time, where mostly ppl played condition thief in 1v1 tournies and ranked. Becuz mats didn’t exist at the time, so your evidence is just proof of exactly what I said, that bountiful theft was taken becuz if staff thief. I already mentioned it that I played trickster at the time in plat3-legend entirely solo q btw and so did everyone else that I knew that mained condition thief at the time, also in regular ats which were the only thing available at the time trickster condition thief absolutely dominated becuz for one that alone gave you a 100% winning mu into other condition thiefs and for me personally I literally did not lose a single 1v1 to another thief in that entire time frame and season. So for real ur kind of contradicting yourself again, literally Almost Everyone ran trickster very commonly at least anyone with a clue at the time which is ample reason for it to be including as meta which it is even if you like to point out it’s not...

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

    I dont get it, why do you keep lying? Youve been shown repeatedly that there is evidence that proves youre lying. You gain nothing from lying, noone believes your lies. As the history of the page shows, it was never changed to bountiful theft. Because the meta build always was bountiful theft. It always told you to pick Bountiful theft, and didnt even suggest Trickster as a variant. Then at some point, some third party edited it to be Trickster. This was incorrect to the point that it got the administrators to roll back the page and then prevent non-administrators from editting, so that no joker could change it to the incorrect Trickster variant. And as a result, it went back to recommending the correct bountiful theft build, which it does to this day. And yes, even now it tells you to play Bountiful Theft. Trickster is only a variant and a less recommended one. If they wanted you to pick trickster, they would show trickster as the default. They dont.

    Clearly all speculation. Congrats dude you looked up something on their history but the fact remains, even if there was an incident it doesn’t change the fact that trickster was meta. The real reason it isn’t listed as only one is because there are lots of variants, but the most popular one which is with 3 tricks was most popular with trickster though it’s also possible to play that with bountiful theft. I personally in this new meta would actually be about split 50/50 on trickster but it was 100% the meta at the time and you can look on stream basically every condition thief worth mentioning was playing rfi with trickster 80% of the time.

    Let me put it as bluntly as possible. You have nothing to show for Condi Thief running Trickster being meta. Metabattle showed the bountiful theft version being meta. If you look at youtube vids people make, they were all running Bountiful Theft. If you watched MATs or streams at the time, they all ran bountiful theft. Noone ran Trickster. Now with Bountiful theft being nerfed, you could maybe make a case for trickster being better now, but now, and any time it was meta, it was bountiful theft.

    Really because at the time, where mostly ppl played condition thief in 1v1 tournies and ranked. Becuz mats didn’t exist at the time, so your evidence is just proof of exactly what I said, that bountiful theft was taken becuz if staff thief. I already mentioned it that I played trickster at the time in plat3-legend entirely solo q btw and so did everyone else that I knew that mained condition thief at the time, also in regular ats which were the only thing available at the time trickster condition thief absolutely dominated becuz for one that alone gave you a 100% winning mu into other condition thiefs and for me personally I literally did not lose a single 1v1 to another thief in that entire time frame and season. So for real ur kind of contradicting yourself again, literally Almost Everyone ran trickster very commonly at least anyone with a clue at the time which is ample reason for it to be including as meta which it is even if you like to point out it’s not...

    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.
    Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

    Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

    What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

    Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

    From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.
    A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

    Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

    Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

    Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

    Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354
    Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

    Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

    So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

    Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.
    I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

    The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540
    Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil
    -_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915
    Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

    Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.
    You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief meta

    They never "changed it to that" nor did they "add it back". The page always showed Bountiful Theft as the default build. It was briefly changed by an unauthorised edit, but it was immediately changed back. Unless you want to say that Staff thief came into the meta and disappeared within 4 days, which coencidentally fit in with those exact 4 days, youre just talking nonsense. For the record, the unauthorised edit that was rolled back was actually made during the time Staff Thief was meta and was also rolled back During the time Staff Thief was meta. So your story doesnt add up. Its just wrong. And yes, it says now that Trickster is a variant. A variant. Which as I explained, means "this is worse, but some people swear by it". Otherwise it would be the default one listed, and not a variant.

    “They never changed it to that” it doesn’t matter who added it. The moderators added it as meta not that 3rd person. Also a variant is “this is worse but some ppl swear by it” is another speculative statement. Your entire argument like all your post on this thread so far are as someone looking at the topic as an outsider looking in, just lol

    It does. And no, the moderators didnt add it as meta. I hate repeating myself, so Ill say it once more. When someone made that change, the moderators stepped in, rolled back the change (Effectly stating "no, this isnt meta, we dont know why someone went in and changed it), presumably (This I cant confirm) banned the user, and made the page administrator protected, to ensure no joker can change it to Trickster again, as that was not the meta, and bountiful theft was. Now later, much later (december this year from what I can tell) they added Trickster as a secondary Variant. But even then, its a variant, instead of bountiful theft. Which means that bountiful theft is the default. You can change it to Trickster, but its not the meta variant, and as such discouraged.

    Again this is speculative. The moderator added condition thief as meta at the time trickster was listed. You are clearly either confusing these 2 facts or lying to boost your clearly speculative arguement

    Ok, Im not sure why you think if you keep lying itll work out, but lets set the facts straight. Condition Thief was added as "meta" with the following revision:

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100364&oldid=99636

    Note that this version uses Bountiful Theft, and Trickster is not even suggested as a variant. The meta variant did not run Trickster, ever. Now, what then happened is that a week later, a third party editted the page to change Bountiful Theft to Trickster. Whats important to note is that with the way Metabattle works, changing a page doesnt automatically change its rating. So when he changed the meta build that got the page marked as meta, to a non-meta build, it remained meta. Of course, the change he made was to a non-meta version, so a couple days his changes were rolled back, he was booted, and the page was changed to protected edits. Or in simpler terms, the Bountiful Theft version was meta, and someone hijacked to try and boost his non-meta build as a meta one. They got booted out, and their non-meta Trickster version was reverted to the meta Bountiful Theft version.

    Funny becuz that’s clearly an incorrect version I bet the moderators are happy that wasn’t the meta

    Metabattle clearly disagrees. But no, it was the correct version. Someone then tried to change it to the incorrect version running Trickster, but that got changed back to the correct bountiful theft version immediately.

    And I’m telling u that’s wrong it was changed to bountiful theft due to an instability in the meta becuz of staff thief. If you look at it now just likes it’s been for awhile it even says that for the most popular option to especially use trickster. So you are clearly lying and using stuff you were never involved in as backup to all of your lame arguements

    I dont get it, why do you keep lying? Youve been shown repeatedly that there is evidence that proves youre lying. You gain nothing from lying, noone believes your lies. As the history of the page shows, it was never changed to bountiful theft. Because the meta build always was bountiful theft. It always told you to pick Bountiful theft, and didnt even suggest Trickster as a variant. Then at some point, some third party edited it to be Trickster. This was incorrect to the point that it got the administrators to roll back the page and then prevent non-administrators from editting, so that no joker could change it to the incorrect Trickster variant. And as a result, it went back to recommending the correct bountiful theft build, which it does to this day. And yes, even now it tells you to play Bountiful Theft. Trickster is only a variant and a less recommended one. If they wanted you to pick trickster, they would show trickster as the default. They dont.

    Clearly all speculation. Congrats dude you looked up something on their history but the fact remains, even if there was an incident it doesn’t change the fact that trickster was meta. The real reason it isn’t listed as only one is because there are lots of variants, but the most popular one which is with 3 tricks was most popular with trickster though it’s also possible to play that with bountiful theft. I personally in this new meta would actually be about split 50/50 on trickster but it was 100% the meta at the time and you can look on stream basically every condition thief worth mentioning was playing rfi with trickster 80% of the time.

    Let me put it as bluntly as possible. You have nothing to show for Condi Thief running Trickster being meta. Metabattle showed the bountiful theft version being meta. If you look at youtube vids people make, they were all running Bountiful Theft. If you watched MATs or streams at the time, they all ran bountiful theft. Noone ran Trickster. Now with Bountiful theft being nerfed, you could maybe make a case for trickster being better now, but now, and any time it was meta, it was bountiful theft.

    Really because at the time, where mostly ppl played condition thief in 1v1 tournies and ranked. Becuz mats didn’t exist at the time, so your evidence is just proof of exactly what I said, that bountiful theft was taken becuz if staff thief. I already mentioned it that I played trickster at the time in plat3-legend entirely solo q btw and so did everyone else that I knew that mained condition thief at the time, also in regular ats which were the only thing available at the time trickster condition thief absolutely dominated becuz for one that alone gave you a 100% winning mu into other condition thiefs and for me personally I literally did not lose a single 1v1 to another thief in that entire time frame and season. So for real ur kind of contradicting yourself again, literally Almost Everyone ran trickster very commonly at least anyone with a clue at the time which is ample reason for it to be including as meta which it is even if you like to point out it’s not...

    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

    Wow there was a mat after a few months of time that self admittedly there was none. There was many many staff thief’s in the first mat that actually even though you claim there was only 1. Apparently what ppl run months later is more important than what was meta for months as you can see on many streams. Metabattle has trickster listed as especially good for the most common variant of the build and to you it is and always has been inferior despite months of stream evidence and the fact that metabattle has it listed as meta, like you pointed out 100% due to the moderator as it’s locked from anyone else changing it. I think you should ask yourself if we are still talking facts or if you are just representing your own opinion as a fact

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

    Wow there was a mat after a few months of time that self admittedly there was none. There was many many staff thief’s in the first mat that actually even though you claim there was only 1. Apparently what ppl run months later is more important than what was meta for months as you can see on many streams. Metabattle has trickster listed as especially good for the most common variant of the build and to you it is and always has been inferior despite months of stream evidence and the fact that metabattle has it listed as meta, like you pointed out 100% due to the moderator as it’s locked from anyone else changing it. I think you should ask yourself if we are still talking facts or if you are just representing your own opinion as a fact

    Yknow what, I know this is pointless, but Ill just point your lies and errors real quick. There werent many staff thief in the first MAT at all. There was 1. You can see the VOD yourself, or you couldve been following it, but there was just 1. Everybody else didnt play it. Couple condi thieves, all on bountiful theft. Metabattle has trickster listed as a VARIANT that is NOT the default build. Its listed as a viable choice for the most common variant, but also as a usually inferior choice for the most common build. Hence why its a VARIANT. Youd think this would be a simple concept, but apparently not. Metabattle has bountiful theft listed as meta, and thats what it was locked to. Trickster was not listed as meta, and they had to change it to being administrator protected to ensure that noone could try and list Trickster as meta. Because it wasnt, bountiful theft was. Trickster was only added as a viable but inferior variant in december, months after october, and prior to that it was always bountiful theft, to the point where they had to lock people who tried to change it to trickster as that was an inferior build. So yes. Bountiful theft is and always was the meta build. Trickster never was. End of story. Thats it though, not going to repeat myself even once more.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

    Wow there was a mat after a few months of time that self admittedly there was none. There was many many staff thief’s in the first mat that actually even though you claim there was only 1. Apparently what ppl run months later is more important than what was meta for months as you can see on many streams. Metabattle has trickster listed as especially good for the most common variant of the build and to you it is and always has been inferior despite months of stream evidence and the fact that metabattle has it listed as meta, like you pointed out 100% due to the moderator as it’s locked from anyone else changing it. I think you should ask yourself if we are still talking facts or if you are just representing your own opinion as a fact

    Yknow what, I know this is pointless, but Ill just point your lies and errors real quick. There werent many staff thief in the first MAT at all. There was 1. You can see the VOD yourself, or you couldve been following it, but there was just 1. Everybody else didnt play it. Couple condi thieves, all on bountiful theft. Metabattle has trickster listed as a VARIANT that is NOT the default build. Its listed as a viable choice for the most common variant, but also as a usually inferior choice for the most common build. Hence why its a VARIANT. Youd think this would be a simple concept, but apparently not. Metabattle has bountiful theft listed as meta, and thats what it was locked to. Trickster was not listed as meta, and they had to change it to being administrator protected to ensure that noone could try and list Trickster as meta. Because it wasnt, bountiful theft was. Trickster was only added as a viable but inferior variant in december, months after october, and prior to that it was always bountiful theft, to the point where they had to lock people who tried to change it to trickster as that was an inferior build. So yes. Bountiful theft is and always was the meta build. Trickster never was. End of story. Thats it though, not going to repeat myself even once more.

    Weird becuz there were many streams of the first mat, the finals alone on NA had what 3 staff thief’s? And the winning team on EU had 1, after staff thief got such huge publicity it became one of the most common at builds in the game and was also super common in ranked at least when it was useful. Again stream evidence, also your deduction that trickster was never meta because it was changed, btw during a new meta and changed back to basically the same thing- btw 6 things were different from the version selected by the moderator than the really bad version that you seem to think is better. But hey these are just facts that I can prove with much much stream evidence even though u claim otherwise. If trickster was bad and never meta and if 3 months of gw2 history and stream evidence never happened then hey I’d admit to being wrong but it all did happen and I wouldn’t admit it because that would be a real pointless lie to most ppl in this game

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

    Wow there was a mat after a few months of time that self admittedly there was none. There was many many staff thief’s in the first mat that actually even though you claim there was only 1. Apparently what ppl run months later is more important than what was meta for months as you can see on many streams. Metabattle has trickster listed as especially good for the most common variant of the build and to you it is and always has been inferior despite months of stream evidence and the fact that metabattle has it listed as meta, like you pointed out 100% due to the moderator as it’s locked from anyone else changing it. I think you should ask yourself if we are still talking facts or if you are just representing your own opinion as a fact

    Yknow what, I know this is pointless, but Ill just point your lies and errors real quick. There werent many staff thief in the first MAT at all. There was 1. You can see the VOD yourself, or you couldve been following it, but there was just 1. Everybody else didnt play it. Couple condi thieves, all on bountiful theft. Metabattle has trickster listed as a VARIANT that is NOT the default build. Its listed as a viable choice for the most common variant, but also as a usually inferior choice for the most common build. Hence why its a VARIANT. Youd think this would be a simple concept, but apparently not. Metabattle has bountiful theft listed as meta, and thats what it was locked to. Trickster was not listed as meta, and they had to change it to being administrator protected to ensure that noone could try and list Trickster as meta. Because it wasnt, bountiful theft was. Trickster was only added as a viable but inferior variant in december, months after october, and prior to that it was always bountiful theft, to the point where they had to lock people who tried to change it to trickster as that was an inferior build. So yes. Bountiful theft is and always was the meta build. Trickster never was. End of story. Thats it though, not going to repeat myself even once more.

    Weird becuz there were many streams of the first mat, the finals alone on NA had what 3 staff thief’s? And the winning team on EU had 1, after staff thief got such huge publicity it became one of the most common at builds in the game and was also super common in ranked at least when it was useful. Again stream evidence, also your deduction that trickster was never meta because it was changed, btw during a new meta and changed back to basically the same thing- btw 6 things were different from the version selected by the moderator than the really bad version that you seem to think is better. But hey these are just facts that I can prove with much much stream evidence even though u claim otherwise. If trickster was bad and never meta and if 3 months of gw2 history and stream evidence never happened then hey I’d admit to being wrong but it all did happen and I wouldn’t admit it because that would be a real pointless lie to most ppl in this game

    I will skip repeating myself, the truth has already been laid out, but let me just address one part. Yes, the version I showed and the version later. Because between the version that was selected as meta, and the version that someone incorrectly changed to using Trickster, they made 2 more revisions. Then someone incorrectly changed it to Trickster, and in response they rolled it back to the latest revision that correctly showed Bountiful Theft, as that was the meta build. Thats why things were different. Im not saying that Trickster wasnt meta because Metabattle "changed it", but rather that the only time Metabattle suggested it, was a third party edit that the sites administrators completely disagreed with and clearly saw as nothing more than vandalism, given that it got the guy (presumably) banned and the site (definitely) edit protected. Or in simpler terms, if things had gone as the administrators wanted it, then the S/D Condi thief would never have shown Trickster. And you keep going on about stream evidence, yet youve shown nothing. Almost as if it doesnt exist. Well, I say "almost", it definitely doesnt exist.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

    Wow there was a mat after a few months of time that self admittedly there was none. There was many many staff thief’s in the first mat that actually even though you claim there was only 1. Apparently what ppl run months later is more important than what was meta for months as you can see on many streams. Metabattle has trickster listed as especially good for the most common variant of the build and to you it is and always has been inferior despite months of stream evidence and the fact that metabattle has it listed as meta, like you pointed out 100% due to the moderator as it’s locked from anyone else changing it. I think you should ask yourself if we are still talking facts or if you are just representing your own opinion as a fact

    Yknow what, I know this is pointless, but Ill just point your lies and errors real quick. There werent many staff thief in the first MAT at all. There was 1. You can see the VOD yourself, or you couldve been following it, but there was just 1. Everybody else didnt play it. Couple condi thieves, all on bountiful theft. Metabattle has trickster listed as a VARIANT that is NOT the default build. Its listed as a viable choice for the most common variant, but also as a usually inferior choice for the most common build. Hence why its a VARIANT. Youd think this would be a simple concept, but apparently not. Metabattle has bountiful theft listed as meta, and thats what it was locked to. Trickster was not listed as meta, and they had to change it to being administrator protected to ensure that noone could try and list Trickster as meta. Because it wasnt, bountiful theft was. Trickster was only added as a viable but inferior variant in december, months after october, and prior to that it was always bountiful theft, to the point where they had to lock people who tried to change it to trickster as that was an inferior build. So yes. Bountiful theft is and always was the meta build. Trickster never was. End of story. Thats it though, not going to repeat myself even once more.

    Weird becuz there were many streams of the first mat, the finals alone on NA had what 3 staff thief’s? And the winning team on EU had 1, after staff thief got such huge publicity it became one of the most common at builds in the game and was also super common in ranked at least when it was useful. Again stream evidence, also your deduction that trickster was never meta because it was changed, btw during a new meta and changed back to basically the same thing- btw 6 things were different from the version selected by the moderator than the really bad version that you seem to think is better. But hey these are just facts that I can prove with much much stream evidence even though u claim otherwise. If trickster was bad and never meta and if 3 months of gw2 history and stream evidence never happened then hey I’d admit to being wrong but it all did happen and I wouldn’t admit it because that would be a real pointless lie to most ppl in this game

    I will skip repeating myself, the truth has already been laid out, but let me just address one part. Yes, the version I showed and the version later. Because between the version that was selected as meta, and the version that someone incorrectly changed to using Trickster, they made 2 more revisions. Then someone incorrectly changed it to Trickster, and in response they rolled it back to the latest revision that correctly showed Bountiful Theft, as that was the meta build. Thats why things were different. Im not saying that Trickster wasnt meta because Metabattle "changed it", but rather that the only time Metabattle suggested it, was a third party edit that the sites administrators completely disagreed with and clearly saw as nothing more than vandalism, given that it got the guy (presumably) banned and the site (definitely) edit protected. Or in simpler terms, if things had gone as the administrators wanted it, then the S/D Condi thief would never have shown Trickster. And you keep going on about stream evidence, yet youve shown nothing. Almost as if it doesnt exist. Well, I say "almost", it definitely doesnt exist.

    Weird becuz trickster was mentioned many many many times before that random edit- there was actually a completely separate build at the same time that had trickster as the best option and that was being used by everyone as proven evident on streams. Which is probably why the entire spec had to be changed because a new more popular version was being played much more commonly.
    Again this incident you mention is coincidental, I applaud the moderators for stopping someone from changing the meta build to be the same thing as another build posted, but when the meta was changed to the new better version it cleared the way for trickster to be added and the other build to be put away as they only needed 1 build. As far as no stream evidence, just lol- daily 1v1 tournies where this was the most common thief build plus lots of ats and my own humble stream which I did daily for like a week where I played it at a pretty high level, plus the fact that everyone I know played it also btw on streams like ats and the 1v1 tournies. There was plenty of evidence and stream material like I said daily public streams that any could watch and btw many did.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

    Wow there was a mat after a few months of time that self admittedly there was none. There was many many staff thief’s in the first mat that actually even though you claim there was only 1. Apparently what ppl run months later is more important than what was meta for months as you can see on many streams. Metabattle has trickster listed as especially good for the most common variant of the build and to you it is and always has been inferior despite months of stream evidence and the fact that metabattle has it listed as meta, like you pointed out 100% due to the moderator as it’s locked from anyone else changing it. I think you should ask yourself if we are still talking facts or if you are just representing your own opinion as a fact

    Yknow what, I know this is pointless, but Ill just point your lies and errors real quick. There werent many staff thief in the first MAT at all. There was 1. You can see the VOD yourself, or you couldve been following it, but there was just 1. Everybody else didnt play it. Couple condi thieves, all on bountiful theft. Metabattle has trickster listed as a VARIANT that is NOT the default build. Its listed as a viable choice for the most common variant, but also as a usually inferior choice for the most common build. Hence why its a VARIANT. Youd think this would be a simple concept, but apparently not. Metabattle has bountiful theft listed as meta, and thats what it was locked to. Trickster was not listed as meta, and they had to change it to being administrator protected to ensure that noone could try and list Trickster as meta. Because it wasnt, bountiful theft was. Trickster was only added as a viable but inferior variant in december, months after october, and prior to that it was always bountiful theft, to the point where they had to lock people who tried to change it to trickster as that was an inferior build. So yes. Bountiful theft is and always was the meta build. Trickster never was. End of story. Thats it though, not going to repeat myself even once more.

    Weird becuz there were many streams of the first mat, the finals alone on NA had what 3 staff thief’s? And the winning team on EU had 1, after staff thief got such huge publicity it became one of the most common at builds in the game and was also super common in ranked at least when it was useful. Again stream evidence, also your deduction that trickster was never meta because it was changed, btw during a new meta and changed back to basically the same thing- btw 6 things were different from the version selected by the moderator than the really bad version that you seem to think is better. But hey these are just facts that I can prove with much much stream evidence even though u claim otherwise. If trickster was bad and never meta and if 3 months of gw2 history and stream evidence never happened then hey I’d admit to being wrong but it all did happen and I wouldn’t admit it because that would be a real pointless lie to most ppl in this game

    I will skip repeating myself, the truth has already been laid out, but let me just address one part. Yes, the version I showed and the version later. Because between the version that was selected as meta, and the version that someone incorrectly changed to using Trickster, they made 2 more revisions. Then someone incorrectly changed it to Trickster, and in response they rolled it back to the latest revision that correctly showed Bountiful Theft, as that was the meta build. Thats why things were different. Im not saying that Trickster wasnt meta because Metabattle "changed it", but rather that the only time Metabattle suggested it, was a third party edit that the sites administrators completely disagreed with and clearly saw as nothing more than vandalism, given that it got the guy (presumably) banned and the site (definitely) edit protected. Or in simpler terms, if things had gone as the administrators wanted it, then the S/D Condi thief would never have shown Trickster. And you keep going on about stream evidence, yet youve shown nothing. Almost as if it doesnt exist. Well, I say "almost", it definitely doesnt exist.

    Weird becuz trickster was mentioned many many many times before that random edit- there was actually a completely separate build at the same time that had trickster as the best option and that was being used by everyone as proven evident on streams. Which is probably why the entire spec had to be changed because a new more popular version was being played much more commonly.

    Ah, the "there totally was another build that shows Trickster, I promise" defense. Late, very late, but expected. Its of course a lie. Lets go over it. "Trickster was mentioned many times before that random edit" Trickster wasnt mentioned once before that edit. Odd thing to lie about given how easy it is to check, but alright. "There was a seperate build yadda yadda" there wasnt. We know that for a number of reasons. First, related builds get mentioned on the page of each other. Under, yknow, "related builds". There was no such thing in any of the previous revisions. Second, any deleted page is put in the logs. We have logs of around that time. We can see those logs. Now I imagine you know what Im going to say, but lets say it anyway. There was no Condi thief page that got deleted. That mysterious second build that used Trickster didnt exist. Its made up.

    Edit: you say that, but I watched streams at the time, and noone used trickster. So surely you have something you can show, right? Otherwise its your word against my word and the fact that metabattle only acknowledged Bountiful Theft as meta.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

    Wow there was a mat after a few months of time that self admittedly there was none. There was many many staff thief’s in the first mat that actually even though you claim there was only 1. Apparently what ppl run months later is more important than what was meta for months as you can see on many streams. Metabattle has trickster listed as especially good for the most common variant of the build and to you it is and always has been inferior despite months of stream evidence and the fact that metabattle has it listed as meta, like you pointed out 100% due to the moderator as it’s locked from anyone else changing it. I think you should ask yourself if we are still talking facts or if you are just representing your own opinion as a fact

    Yknow what, I know this is pointless, but Ill just point your lies and errors real quick. There werent many staff thief in the first MAT at all. There was 1. You can see the VOD yourself, or you couldve been following it, but there was just 1. Everybody else didnt play it. Couple condi thieves, all on bountiful theft. Metabattle has trickster listed as a VARIANT that is NOT the default build. Its listed as a viable choice for the most common variant, but also as a usually inferior choice for the most common build. Hence why its a VARIANT. Youd think this would be a simple concept, but apparently not. Metabattle has bountiful theft listed as meta, and thats what it was locked to. Trickster was not listed as meta, and they had to change it to being administrator protected to ensure that noone could try and list Trickster as meta. Because it wasnt, bountiful theft was. Trickster was only added as a viable but inferior variant in december, months after october, and prior to that it was always bountiful theft, to the point where they had to lock people who tried to change it to trickster as that was an inferior build. So yes. Bountiful theft is and always was the meta build. Trickster never was. End of story. Thats it though, not going to repeat myself even once more.

    Weird becuz there were many streams of the first mat, the finals alone on NA had what 3 staff thief’s? And the winning team on EU had 1, after staff thief got such huge publicity it became one of the most common at builds in the game and was also super common in ranked at least when it was useful. Again stream evidence, also your deduction that trickster was never meta because it was changed, btw during a new meta and changed back to basically the same thing- btw 6 things were different from the version selected by the moderator than the really bad version that you seem to think is better. But hey these are just facts that I can prove with much much stream evidence even though u claim otherwise. If trickster was bad and never meta and if 3 months of gw2 history and stream evidence never happened then hey I’d admit to being wrong but it all did happen and I wouldn’t admit it because that would be a real pointless lie to most ppl in this game

    I will skip repeating myself, the truth has already been laid out, but let me just address one part. Yes, the version I showed and the version later. Because between the version that was selected as meta, and the version that someone incorrectly changed to using Trickster, they made 2 more revisions. Then someone incorrectly changed it to Trickster, and in response they rolled it back to the latest revision that correctly showed Bountiful Theft, as that was the meta build. Thats why things were different. Im not saying that Trickster wasnt meta because Metabattle "changed it", but rather that the only time Metabattle suggested it, was a third party edit that the sites administrators completely disagreed with and clearly saw as nothing more than vandalism, given that it got the guy (presumably) banned and the site (definitely) edit protected. Or in simpler terms, if things had gone as the administrators wanted it, then the S/D Condi thief would never have shown Trickster. And you keep going on about stream evidence, yet youve shown nothing. Almost as if it doesnt exist. Well, I say "almost", it definitely doesnt exist.

    Weird becuz trickster was mentioned many many many times before that random edit- there was actually a completely separate build at the same time that had trickster as the best option and that was being used by everyone as proven evident on streams. Which is probably why the entire spec had to be changed because a new more popular version was being played much more commonly.

    Ah, the "there totally was another build that shows Trickster, I promise" defense. Late, very late, but expected. Its of course a lie. Lets go over it. "Trickster was mentioned many times before that random edit" Trickster wasnt mentioned once before that edit. Odd thing to lie about given how easy it is to check, but alright. "There was a seperate build yadda yadda" there wasnt. We know that for a number of reasons. First, related builds get mentioned on the page of each other. Under, yknow, "related builds". There was no such thing in any of the previous revisions. Second, any deleted page is put in the logs. We have logs of around that time. We can see those logs. Now I imagine you know what Im going to say, but lets say it anyway. There was no Condi thief page that got deleted. That mysterious second build that used Trickster didnt exist. Its made up.

    Edit: you say that, but I watched streams at the time, and noone used trickster. So surely you have something you can show, right? Otherwise its your word against my word and the fact that metabattle only acknowledged Bountiful Theft as meta.

    I never said there was a related page that got delete but it is fact that there was a second page in the thief section and everyone was playing the version with tricks instead because it was clearly superior hence why trickster was added. Too late lol Youve been raging nonstop! Has anyone backed you up with proof that your right? No because the fact remains the new version of condition thief is clearly superior to what it was and very many ppl played it that way

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Ok Im going to assume this is just you mixing up the timeline rather than willfully lying, but no, monthly tournaments did exist at the time. In fact, we had more of them than usual. Due to whatever issues MATs had during July, August and September, they actually ran the "monthly" tournaments every 2 weeks. There were 2 "monthly" tournaments in october, and november. Not sure about december, didnt pay attention at the time. So no, people played it in MATs. They ran bountiful theft. They ran it before Staff Thief, during Staff Thief, and after Staff Thief. Practically noone ran Trickster. It was just worse.

    Wrong mats were gone for a good bit and the first mat that came around staff bunker thief dominated and was added to meta immediately. Literally almost everyone knows that. Everything I said is true- I streamed maintaining a minimum of 80% win rate solo q and we had frequent streams of daily ats and 1v1 tournies every night on NA, trickster absolutely dominated in all modes available which was ranked, 1v1 tournies and daily ats all of which was available on streams which is why everyone played it as meta and it’s good that metabattle has it listed becuz it was by far the most superior option at the time

    So I guess willful lying it is. MATs were gone for a good bit. That "good bit" is July, August and September. Here is the first MAT of October. As you can see at the start of the video, its October 5th. Here is the second MAT of October. As you can see at 13:25 in, its October 19th. 2 weeks later. Biweekly, as I said. And you can take a look at the first MAT, and see that it has 1 Staff Thief. In the entire thing. But yeah, couple condi thieves, none running Trickery. It simply wasnt as good. So yeah, so much for "Trickster dominating", and if it was a superior version (it wasnt, it was inferior), then it wouldve been listed on Metabattle, rather than being an edit deemed so incorrect, they made the page protected to ensure noone can edit that again. But I suppose its pointless, you have made your point of not caring for the truth very clear.

    1 staff thief in mats? Lol there were like at least 3 if you count all the top teams on NA and the winning team on EU had 1 after that in the second mat staff thief was on almost every team worth mentioning except team USA, whom lost that to a staff thief team and admittedly didn’t have their full roster. Doesn’t really matter what 2 random condition thief’s ran and again this is during the time when staff thief was 100% meta, though as much as I hate to say something personal to such an obvious troll that I was asked to play with the winning team on NA(USA) but didn’t and I would’ve ran trickster over bountiful theft as would many many ppl becuz it was just superior on condition thief at the time as proved by many streams.

    How exactly would you know, you just tried to say that there were no MATs. Clearly you were unaware. Now youre trying to act like you know what was going on in the MAT? But no, there was 1, and that is not nearly enough. And no, all condi thieves in the MAT ran Bountiful Theft. And so they did in the 2nd one, and in both of the november ones, after Staff Thief was massively nerfed and no longer viable. At no point was Trickster anything other than inferior to bountiful theft, as proven by Metabattle, the MATs, and many streams. But no, the only troll is you. But as I said, this is pointless. The facts have been layed out, you choose to ignore them.

    Wow there was a mat after a few months of time that self admittedly there was none. There was many many staff thief’s in the first mat that actually even though you claim there was only 1. Apparently what ppl run months later is more important than what was meta for months as you can see on many streams. Metabattle has trickster listed as especially good for the most common variant of the build and to you it is and always has been inferior despite months of stream evidence and the fact that metabattle has it listed as meta, like you pointed out 100% due to the moderator as it’s locked from anyone else changing it. I think you should ask yourself if we are still talking facts or if you are just representing your own opinion as a fact

    Yknow what, I know this is pointless, but Ill just point your lies and errors real quick. There werent many staff thief in the first MAT at all. There was 1. You can see the VOD yourself, or you couldve been following it, but there was just 1. Everybody else didnt play it. Couple condi thieves, all on bountiful theft. Metabattle has trickster listed as a VARIANT that is NOT the default build. Its listed as a viable choice for the most common variant, but also as a usually inferior choice for the most common build. Hence why its a VARIANT. Youd think this would be a simple concept, but apparently not. Metabattle has bountiful theft listed as meta, and thats what it was locked to. Trickster was not listed as meta, and they had to change it to being administrator protected to ensure that noone could try and list Trickster as meta. Because it wasnt, bountiful theft was. Trickster was only added as a viable but inferior variant in december, months after october, and prior to that it was always bountiful theft, to the point where they had to lock people who tried to change it to trickster as that was an inferior build. So yes. Bountiful theft is and always was the meta build. Trickster never was. End of story. Thats it though, not going to repeat myself even once more.

    Weird becuz there were many streams of the first mat, the finals alone on NA had what 3 staff thief’s? And the winning team on EU had 1, after staff thief got such huge publicity it became one of the most common at builds in the game and was also super common in ranked at least when it was useful. Again stream evidence, also your deduction that trickster was never meta because it was changed, btw during a new meta and changed back to basically the same thing- btw 6 things were different from the version selected by the moderator than the really bad version that you seem to think is better. But hey these are just facts that I can prove with much much stream evidence even though u claim otherwise. If trickster was bad and never meta and if 3 months of gw2 history and stream evidence never happened then hey I’d admit to being wrong but it all did happen and I wouldn’t admit it because that would be a real pointless lie to most ppl in this game

    I will skip repeating myself, the truth has already been laid out, but let me just address one part. Yes, the version I showed and the version later. Because between the version that was selected as meta, and the version that someone incorrectly changed to using Trickster, they made 2 more revisions. Then someone incorrectly changed it to Trickster, and in response they rolled it back to the latest revision that correctly showed Bountiful Theft, as that was the meta build. Thats why things were different. Im not saying that Trickster wasnt meta because Metabattle "changed it", but rather that the only time Metabattle suggested it, was a third party edit that the sites administrators completely disagreed with and clearly saw as nothing more than vandalism, given that it got the guy (presumably) banned and the site (definitely) edit protected. Or in simpler terms, if things had gone as the administrators wanted it, then the S/D Condi thief would never have shown Trickster. And you keep going on about stream evidence, yet youve shown nothing. Almost as if it doesnt exist. Well, I say "almost", it definitely doesnt exist.

    Weird becuz trickster was mentioned many many many times before that random edit- there was actually a completely separate build at the same time that had trickster as the best option and that was being used by everyone as proven evident on streams. Which is probably why the entire spec had to be changed because a new more popular version was being played much more commonly.

    Ah, the "there totally was another build that shows Trickster, I promise" defense. Late, very late, but expected. Its of course a lie. Lets go over it. "Trickster was mentioned many times before that random edit" Trickster wasnt mentioned once before that edit. Odd thing to lie about given how easy it is to check, but alright. "There was a seperate build yadda yadda" there wasnt. We know that for a number of reasons. First, related builds get mentioned on the page of each other. Under, yknow, "related builds". There was no such thing in any of the previous revisions. Second, any deleted page is put in the logs. We have logs of around that time. We can see those logs. Now I imagine you know what Im going to say, but lets say it anyway. There was no Condi thief page that got deleted. That mysterious second build that used Trickster didnt exist. Its made up.

    Edit: you say that, but I watched streams at the time, and noone used trickster. So surely you have something you can show, right? Otherwise its your word against my word and the fact that metabattle only acknowledged Bountiful Theft as meta.

    I never said there was a related page that got delete but it is fact that there was a second page in the thief section and everyone was playing the version with tricks instead because it was clearly superior hence why trickster was added. Too late lol Youve been raging nonstop! Has anyone backed you up with proof that your right? No because the fact remains the new version of condition thief is clearly superior to what it was and very many ppl played it that way

    There was no second page. If it existed it wouldve either had to have been deleted (there was no such page that was deleted) or it would have to still exist (no such page exists). But as I said, you cant find it, or a log of its deletion, because it never existed. Its just a made up page, a bad lie that you cling to after your previous lies were exposed as that. And since no such page existed, noone was playing it either. Otherwise it wouldve been noted. And no, it was clearly inferior, hence why it didnt exist as a page and the only S/D condi page that existed listed exclusively Bountiful Theft with Trickster as an inferior variant. And no, thats not why Trickster was added, Trickster was eventually (long after S/D Condi was meta) added as an inferior alternative some people (like you, apparently) swear by. But its clearly inferior.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    Dude I just don’t wanna hear anymore. You claim to know everything making speculation that the moderator did this for so and so reason etc. You also claim o I watched the mAT and there was only 1 staff thief- wow though you are neglecting every other stream. All that is clearly bs- you aren’t a moderator and it doesn’t matter what only you watched. You’re probably an eu only player or something but ignoring everything else besides what you think doesn’t make your argument valid or useful at all after all none of it has anything to do with this thread.