New balance patch, time to change downstate? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

New balance patch, time to change downstate?

lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
edited February 3, 2020 in WvW

With all (but particularly bursty) damage getting nerfed, it should be safe to nerf/remove the downstate.

My personal favorite option would be removing it entirely but reducing ressing speed by 50% and preventing more than 2 people from ressing the same target in addition to reworking the downstate skills that prevent safestomps (ele, thief, mesmer) is imo a good compromise.

Either way the patch is a big improvement but it seems the perfect time to deal with this issue.

Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

New balance patch, time to change downstate? 98 votes

Remove it
25%
Fleebag.1384LetoII.3782Substance E.4852K THEN.5162EremiteAngel.9765Maven.1690Zero.3871Cerpin.7839Xion.5694Gwaihir.1745scerevisiae.1972TinkTinkPOOF.9201Pixel.8542miguelsil.6324lodjur.1284Alyster.9470Extacy.6192Lan Deathrider.5910Divirel.4953Excursion.9752 25 votes
Nerf it
11%
Diabolo.4876Belghar.3024Pterikdactyl.7630TheBravery.9615BigEvs.6971reddie.5861Kofiend.2530Aracz.4702Anput.4620Bjerger king.7498Claymore.1690 11 votes
Don't change it
60%
Loosmaster.8263Svarty.8019LINKAZZATORE.8135Spurnshadow.3678borgs.6103Blockhead Magee.3092Dralor.3701catalyst.1358Hyper Cutter.9376anonymous.7812Donn.9024Cyninja.2954Elmo Benchwarmer.3025Chay.7852Hannelore.8153Henry.5713Ansau.7326CrimsonNeonite.1048hallonknopp.6532jaif.3518 59 votes
Other
3%
Aeolus.3615Zexanima.7851L A T I O N.8923 3 votes

Comments

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

    I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

    We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

    I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

    Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other

    The only thing I've ever had a problem with regarding "Down" state is down state skills that allow you to reposition. Your down, you should be stuck where you go down at. People shouldn't be able to kite in downstate. Cleaving can already be difficult enough some times.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

    We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

    I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

    Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

    I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

    as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

    I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

    We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

    I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

    Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

    I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

    First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

    Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

    Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

    I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

    as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

    I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

    The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

    You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gonna wait on the balance patch to actually pass, and cook for a week or two...

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

    We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

    I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

    Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

    I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

    First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

    Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

    Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

    I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

    as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

    I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

    The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

    You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

    I'm asking you to justify your stance with more than anecdotal nonsense.

    So far every reason I've seen for removal has been a failure to adapt. "I couldn't beat a guy cuz they had downstate, even though I know they have down state and know what skills they have in downstate..." or "we lost that zerg fight cuz the other group rallied, even tho we know that its a feature and didn't plan or adapt to finishing downs" or "I lost a 2v1 cuz their friend ressed him, even though I know it part of the game."

    My guild of 20-25 often runs into the issue of getting a good hit on a 50+ group and not being able to finish downs, leading to a rally or them ressing their back line while we kite. This isn't a loss because of downstate, it happened because we didnt bring enough cleave or dps died or positioning made it to hard to get to the downs. It is on us to adapt and improve, not come to the forums and ask daddy anet to change it so its easier on us.

    So I am asking you, justify why the player base would want this? (not just the vocal few here and on reddit)

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

    We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

    I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

    Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

    I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

    First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

    Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

    Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

    I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

    as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

    I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

    The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

    You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

    I'm asking you to justify your stance with more than anecdotal nonsense.

    Are you disagreeing with me that a very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW) without (almost) anyone caring? The difference between having traits that do nothing (like ressing traits during no downstate) and traits that are outshone to such a degree that they never get picked isn't big.

    So far every reason I've seen for removal has been a failure to adapt. "I couldn't beat a guy cuz they had downstate, even though I know they have down state and know what skills they have in downstate..." or "we lost that zerg fight cuz the other group rallied, even tho we know that its a feature and didn't plan or adapt to finishing downs" or "I lost a 2v1 cuz their friend ressed him, even though I know it part of the game."

    Problem is that the downstate like the AoE cap inherently and arbitrarily favor larger groups. I am aware of it's existence and my group goes to great lengths to put high amounts of cleave in our builds, we've adapted about as much as one can. We do rather well and can generally deal with the downstate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

    My guild of 20-25 often runs into the issue of getting a good hit on a 50+ group and not being able to finish downs, leading to a rally or them ressing their back line while we kite. This isn't a loss because of downstate, it happened because we didnt bring enough cleave or dps died or positioning made it to hard to get to the downs. It is on us to adapt and improve, not come to the forums and ask daddy anet to change it so its easier on us.

    I want numbers to matter less and gameplay/builds to matter more. That's not wanting anyone to take or easier on us, it's simply me stating "I personally believe WvW would be in a better place without (or with a nerfed) downstate".

    So I am asking you, justify why the player base would want this? (not just the vocal few here and on reddit)

    I think it would make skill matter more and make combat decisions more meaningful, to me both of those are good things, to others they might be bad things.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

    We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

    I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

    Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

    I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

    First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

    Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

    Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

    I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

    as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

    I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

    The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

    You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

    I'm asking you to justify your stance with more than anecdotal nonsense.

    Are you disagreeing with me that a very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW) without (almost) anyone caring? The difference between having traits that do nothing (like ressing traits during no downstate) and traits that are outshone to such a degree that they never get picked isn't big.

    So far every reason I've seen for removal has been a failure to adapt. "I couldn't beat a guy cuz they had downstate, even though I know they have down state and know what skills they have in downstate..." or "we lost that zerg fight cuz the other group rallied, even tho we know that its a feature and didn't plan or adapt to finishing downs" or "I lost a 2v1 cuz their friend ressed him, even though I know it part of the game."

    Problem is that the downstate like the AoE cap inherently and arbitrarily favor larger groups. I am aware of it's existence and my group goes to great lengths to put high amounts of cleave in our builds, we've adapted about as much as one can. We do rather well and can generally deal with the downstate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

    My guild of 20-25 often runs into the issue of getting a good hit on a 50+ group and not being able to finish downs, leading to a rally or them ressing their back line while we kite. This isn't a loss because of downstate, it happened because we didnt bring enough cleave or dps died or positioning made it to hard to get to the downs. It is on us to adapt and improve, not come to the forums and ask daddy anet to change it so its easier on us.

    I want numbers to matter less and gameplay/builds to matter more. That's not wanting anyone to take or easier on us, it's simply me stating "I personally believe WvW would be in a better place without (or with a nerfed) downstate".

    So I am asking you, justify why the player base would want this? (not just the vocal few here and on reddit)

    I think it would make skill matter more and make combat decisions more meaningful, to me both of those are good things, to others they might be bad things.

    In a sense, I do disagree with "very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW)". Namely because Anet has never told us how WvW is expected to play. For the current zerg meta 100% but most of my roaming build have vastly different trait and skills. But to that point, even though balancing all traits for all game modes is unrealistic, I don't think its good to be ok with "useless" traits. And having existing useless traits isn't a good justification for other traits being moved to useless.

    Your 2nd point, I agree. Down state in it current form is hard to combat when fighting outnumbered. I'm not sure this justifies complete removal but you did note "nerfs" as alternative which I can get onboard with.

    Your 3rd point, I also agree. But in a sense, I also disagree. I think a majority of the player base is super casual and skill, good organization and practice can overcome most groups left in (NA) WvW that rely on what they have been told meta is. I believe a good group of 25-30 can and should be able to fight anything left playing on NA and wipes/losses are mostly due to poor playing/mistakes. So I agree that numbers should matter less but I think gameplay already matter more. A 15 man group shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with 50. But 15 can make it hard for 50 people if they play well and don't get sucked into blob fighting strats.

    Thank you, with the patch preview everyone is looking at specifics and click bait reasons with no substance doesn't help stay constructive. You get people like me being facetious because it comes off as a petty complaint rather than a thought out opinion.

    So I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I don't think removing a fundamental part of the game (downstate) is the right way to go about it. I think it will promote pirate ship and long drawn out fights because people a majority of the player base will be too timid to push into melee. It will also promote forgoing support and front loading a huge bomb and running away(or hide in a keep), which doesn't promote healthy fights.

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Leave carebear mode alone reeeee !

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

    We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

    I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

    Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

    I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

    First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

    Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

    Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

    I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

    as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

    I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

    The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

    You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

    I'm asking you to justify your stance with more than anecdotal nonsense.

    Are you disagreeing with me that a very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW) without (almost) anyone caring? The difference between having traits that do nothing (like ressing traits during no downstate) and traits that are outshone to such a degree that they never get picked isn't big.

    So far every reason I've seen for removal has been a failure to adapt. "I couldn't beat a guy cuz they had downstate, even though I know they have down state and know what skills they have in downstate..." or "we lost that zerg fight cuz the other group rallied, even tho we know that its a feature and didn't plan or adapt to finishing downs" or "I lost a 2v1 cuz their friend ressed him, even though I know it part of the game."

    Problem is that the downstate like the AoE cap inherently and arbitrarily favor larger groups. I am aware of it's existence and my group goes to great lengths to put high amounts of cleave in our builds, we've adapted about as much as one can. We do rather well and can generally deal with the downstate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

    My guild of 20-25 often runs into the issue of getting a good hit on a 50+ group and not being able to finish downs, leading to a rally or them ressing their back line while we kite. This isn't a loss because of downstate, it happened because we didnt bring enough cleave or dps died or positioning made it to hard to get to the downs. It is on us to adapt and improve, not come to the forums and ask daddy anet to change it so its easier on us.

    I want numbers to matter less and gameplay/builds to matter more. That's not wanting anyone to take or easier on us, it's simply me stating "I personally believe WvW would be in a better place without (or with a nerfed) downstate".

    So I am asking you, justify why the player base would want this? (not just the vocal few here and on reddit)

    I think it would make skill matter more and make combat decisions more meaningful, to me both of those are good things, to others they might be bad things.

    In a sense, I do disagree with "very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW)". Namely because Anet has never told us how WvW is expected to play. For the current zerg meta 100% but most of my roaming build have vastly different trait and skills. But to that point, even though balancing all traits for all game modes is unrealistic, I don't think its good to be ok with "useless" traits. And having existing useless traits isn't a good justification for other traits being moved to useless.

    I am not talking about the situational ones I am more talking about the ones that are just plain bad whether you're zerging, roaming or anything else.

    While ideally there wouldn't be any traits that are utterly useless I don't believe that making 1 (2 for a few) trait/class (especially as none of them are crucial traits for get a build to work, beyond ressboting I guess) useless would be a a massive problem even if it isn't ideal.

    Your 2nd point, I agree. Down state in it current form is hard to combat when fighting outnumbered. I'm not sure this justifies complete removal but you did note "nerfs" as alternative which I can get onboard with.

    Well I would prefer removal, I would be very happy with just some kinda nerf to it but would accept no changes, well I might make a thread about it every few months but it's not gonna keep me up at night.

    Your 3rd point, I also agree. But in a sense, I also disagree. I think a majority of the player base is super casual and skill, good organization and practice can overcome most groups left in (NA) WvW that rely on what they have been told meta is. I believe a good group of 25-30 can and should be able to fight anything left playing on NA and wipes/losses are mostly due to poor playing/mistakes. So I agree that numbers should matter less but I think gameplay already matter more. A 15 man group shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with 50. But 15 can make it hard for 50 people if they play well and don't get sucked into blob fighting strats.

    It should be noted that a very vast majority of my experience is from playing in a group of 2-4 (and in very few cases 5-6). Therefore it's very rare that the downstate ever benefits us (tho it happens on very rare occasions). The opinions are most likely also a bit biased around making that kinda groupsize comparatively better.

    In my opinion if a smaller group plays well enough and the larger group plays poorly enough there shouldn't be some hard limit to what you can take, currently there's a few systems that kinda create that limit, the downstate (on its current state) is one of them (the other is AoE caps but that deserves its own thread really).

    I am aware that a removal of the downstate wouldn't suddenly allow us to go 3v20 (on any kind of frequent basis at any rate) but I feel it would certainly help a lot with doing outnumbered fights.

    Thank you, with the patch preview everyone is looking at specifics and click bait reasons with no substance doesn't help stay constructive. You get people like me being facetious because it comes off as a petty complaint rather than a thought out opinion.

    Ye I guess there's quite a lot of hyperbolic threads atm.

    So I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I don't think removing a fundamental part of the game (downstate) is the right way to go about it. I think it will promote pirate ship and long drawn out fights because people a majority of the player base will be too timid to push into melee. It will also promote forgoing support and front loading a huge bomb and running away(or hide in a keep), which doesn't promote healthy fights.

    I have always kinda hated the downstate but in the current extremely bursty meta it almost feels like a necessary evil, I believe in the much less bursty meta that anet is constructing that it might not be, hence the timing of this thread. I personally would be happy about basically any change that weakens the downstate whether it's a complete removal or slight decrease to ressing speed.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020
    Don't change it

    NO thank you, if you're on a low population server like I am, the game is already like 90% running back from waypoints. The only thing that offsets this frustration is the occasional rally or ress from an ally, if you remove downstate you remove that altogether.

    I'd only support downstate removal if revival skills could revive someone who is fully downed.

    Sure, you can make the argument that this will help the weaker side, since they could get rid of enemies completely, but in reality that already happens with the Warclaw stomp and they just walk back from the waypoint too, just a bit slower.

    Removing downstate would do little more than decrease TTK even more and increase frustration when outnumbered.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest(PvE) & Terakura/Spellbreaker(WvW) | ♀♥♀

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    NO thank you, if you're on a low popoulation server like I am, the game is already like 90% running back from waypoints. The only thing that offsets this frustration is the occasional rally or ress from an ally, if you remove downstate you remove that altogether.

    The downstate is a large part of what allows larger groups to just steamroll

    I'd only support downstate removal if revival skills could revive someone who is fully downed.

    Outside of combat sure

    Sure, you can make the argument that this will help the weaker side, since they could get rid of enemies completely, but in reality that already happens with the Warclaw stomp and they just walk back from the waypoint too, just a bit slower.

    When fighting outnumbered you can't really spare people to just sit around on their mounts

    Removing downstate would do little more than decrease TTK even more and increase frustration when outnumbered.

    The downstate (almost) always helps the bigger group, the smaller group has much more a fighting chance without it. Also TTK is already going up quite a bit this patch which is amazing for smaller groups.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Remove it

    Downstate was always bad in wvw - its a PvE friendly mode.
    And in pvp its not a big deal because bleeding out is worse than respawn.
    just remove it for WvW :)

  • Xion.5694Xion.5694 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    They will notcie the issue after the patch goes live, then 3 months of 'looking into options' then 'yes, we reduced the revive speed, but give 5 sec of invul on downstate to compnsate' fix.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we will need a couple of weeks for people to adjust and then we should consider a no downstate week to better understand the changes and its impacts.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Don't change it

    No-Downstate makes the game boring. Landing good burst and watching players evaporate into a gray nameplate rather than dealing with downstates/rallies removes too much play and is unsatisfying.

    I'd rather see experiments with removing downstate's invulnerable tick or conditions persisting through transitions if anything is changed before no-downstate is ever considered.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020
    Other

    I would remove the heal while tapping or rubing or whathever that looks on the downed ally.
    Also would disable the vengeance rally effect... and would save it for something else.

    1 - Either u finish the player (yes warclaw finish is simple stupid and low effort from Anet to deal with the improvement of the downed system).
    2 - Use skill, banner, anything besides rubbing ally, to rez while its on downstate, this would valuate skills like search and rescue more.
    3 - Dead is dead, well... one coudld use a hard rez but that player would have a morale system with a penalty every time a player gets hard rezed it s a 10% damage and 20% health penalty... killing enemies would reduce that morale effect, similiar to morale penalty on gw1.

    This would be some sorta hybrid downstate and rez from gw1 and 2.

  • scerevisiae.1972scerevisiae.1972 Member ✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020
    Remove it

    Downed state is still the worst thing about this game and prob one of the biggest reasons sPVP failed so hard.

    At launch, and for the next year, all i heard over and over was that downed state sucked cause it made 1-shot builds possible and ruined the flow of combat.

    Not once in the entirety of this game have I ever been downed and thought, wow this is cool, i've got 4 new crappy skills to choose from. I hope the guy that thought downed state would make the game better has already been fired and will never work in the game industry again so he/she can't screw up another game.

    Yeah I hate it that much.

    GW2 would be made much better if 1-shotting were removed, and maybe then add a resurrect skill to certain classes.

  • And get things like Instant Reflexes out of high mobility classes.

  • Don't change it

    Leave it alone. There are too many players who can't plan the fight out to the end, so they want to remove a piece of it to make it easier for themselves.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    @Blockhead Magee.3092 said:
    Leave it alone. There are too many players who can't plan the fight out to the end, so they want to remove a piece of it to make it easier for themselves.

    Nah I can play around it fine to the degree that it's possible. But the issue at hand is whether it's good for the game or not and the fact is that it always favors the bigger group far more than is reasonable.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • I literally just made a thread about this topic a week ago.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96369/nerf-wvw-downstate/p1

    This problem is just going to get worse in WvW.
    There are so many problems with the current downstate mechanic.
    1. RALLY, this just needs to be removed in WvW.
    2. Health/Res speed. Too much health for a downstate, it's basically another health bar. Also the res speed is so much faster than you can cleave. Goodluck stomping downed if you don't have stealth/stab/blind.

    Idk, I feel like the devs don't really care because they don't really play this mode.

  • Don't change it

    Oh this again? Maybe some day you will get a different result :>.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020
    Don't change it

    I enjoy the "no downstate" events. Do I want that for the game mode all the time? Hell no. It becomes a pure zerg and 1-shot fest.

    Please also don't mix downstate with rallying. One works off the other, but I would much rather have a "no rally from kills" week or change, thus requiring skills or manual resurrecting, over a complete removal of downstate.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭
    Nerf it

    still in for downstate but only to be ressed up no rally or self res.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I enjoy the "no downstate" events. Do I want that for the game mode all the time? Hell no. It becomes a pure zerg and 1-shot fest.

    Hence the timing of this thread as 1 shots are taking a big hit.

    Please also don't mix downstate with rallying. One works off the other, but I would much rather have a "no rally from kills" week or change, thus requiring skills or manual resurrecting, over a complete removal of downstate.

    Out of curiosity, why do you hate rallying but not manual ressing, it seems quite a common opinion?

    I am personally the exact opposite, if there was no manual ressing (or severly weaker) I would have rather few problems with the downstate. I also hate the various instaressing skills far more than rallying

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020
    Don't change it

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I enjoy the "no downstate" events. Do I want that for the game mode all the time? Hell no. It becomes a pure zerg and 1-shot fest.

    Hence the timing of this thread as 1 shots are taking a big hit.

    Let's wait and see shall we? Also as far as being 1 shot downed in wvw squad fights, that's going no where.

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Please also don't mix downstate with rallying. One works off the other, but I would much rather have a "no rally from kills" week or change, thus requiring skills or manual resurrecting, over a complete removal of downstate.

    Out of curiosity, why do you hate rallying but not manual ressing, it seems quite a common opinion?

    I don't hate rallying. I said I'd prefer keeping the downstate and if at all removing the rallying but I am fine with the current system.

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I am personally the exact opposite, if there was no manual ressing (or severly weaker) I would have rather few problems with the downstate. I also hate the various instaressing skills far more than rallying

    So you'd prefer for players who are in downstate to not be able to resurrect if no more enemies are close by? Or be forced to "wait" until everybody is out of combat or bleed out. Doesn't sound all to fun to me tbh.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020
    Remove it

    I voted to remove downstate but it was a mighty struggle.

    Assuming even numbers, building to fast res downstate is a valid build strategy and tactic to employ. Downstate adds to fight dynamics and build creativity.

    Unfortunately most fights happen with uneven numbers and Downstate favours the side with more numbers and should rightfully be removed.
    If the side with lesser numbers are good enough to generate a down, then the downed person should be an instant KO.

    I recently transferred to BP to watch Alpha Wolves in action and by the gods, they are the NA equivalent of Legendary OCX guild LATE and SEA guild eA/FFF
    Dominating is how I would describe their presence.
    With just 15 men, they could generate multiple downs when going up against blobs of 30-40+.
    They just didn’t have the ability to finish those downs when they are being pushed by the much larger enemy blob.
    I think removing downstate is a fair reward for skilful groups fighting outnumbered.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD > TC > Mag > GOM > AR > JQ > BP

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:
    Downed state is still the worst thing about this game and prob one of the biggest reasons sPVP failed so hard.

    At launch, and for the next year, all i heard over and over was that downed state sucked cause it made 1-shot builds possible and ruined the flow of combat.

    Not once in the entirety of this game have I ever been downed and thought, wow this is cool, i've got 4 new crappy skills to choose from. I hope the guy that thought downed state would make the game better has already been fired and will never work in the game industry again so he/she can't screw up another game.

    Yeah I hate it that much.

    GW2 would be made much better if 1-shotting were removed, and maybe then add a resurrect skill to certain classes.

    Then dont go down. Problem solved. Isnt that the correct answer? Its what every downstate denier says anyway, that if you have a problem with no downstate, dont die.

    And if you say that it helps the enemy when you fight them... Well there you go. Someone thinks its cool.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020
    Remove it

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I enjoy the "no downstate" events. Do I want that for the game mode all the time? Hell no. It becomes a pure zerg and 1-shot fest.

    Hence the timing of this thread as 1 shots are taking a big hit.

    Let's wait and see shall we? Also as far as being 1 shot downed in wvw squad fights, that's going no where.

    Ye in large skill it will still exist, but zerg fights lasting a bit shorter wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Please also don't mix downstate with rallying. One works off the other, but I would much rather have a "no rally from kills" week or change, thus requiring skills or manual resurrecting, over a complete removal of downstate.

    Out of curiosity, why do you hate rallying but not manual ressing, it seems quite a common opinion?

    I don't hate rallying. I said I'd prefer keeping the downstate and if at all removing the rallying but I am fine with the current system.

    Alright, it really wasn't meant as an attack, I was just curious.

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I am personally the exact opposite, if there was no manual ressing (or severly weaker) I would have rather few problems with the downstate. I also hate the various instaressing skills far more than rallying

    So you'd prefer for players who are in downstate to not be able to resurrect if no more enemies are close by? Or be forced to "wait" until everybody is out of combat or bleed out. Doesn't sound all to fun to me tbh.

    I meant keeping only the self ress part as that's slow and interrupted by damage (well strikes more specifically).

    [moderator: content edited]

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Don't change it

    in terms of Wvw, people need just learn to play with it. if everyone watches himself, the other and the surroundings, and the team focuses down dmg on the downed, then nobody will really. if some charge into a zerg with 5 people and get rolled after downing three, four people, then it's a pitty but had to be expected. 5 vs 20 rarely succeeds, unless you split them up - and a focused kill including downstate takes only seconds.

    the dmg-nerfs that may come with "balance" patch might surely make this topic more annoying. we had kinda poll yet, i'd rather prefer dead not beeing revivable than no downstate. its useless in 90% of cases anyways. and i won 1v1s in downstate, especially when you kill them first but some downed/condi dirt gets you afterwards after cd's are not charged since you got jumped from behind.. :bleep_bloop:
    i don't want to give them the kill, just because the use some cancer build that kills me after i killed them. would require every class to get better condicleanses on their base healing, or condi imminently disappearing at death of your opponent.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020
    Don't change it

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I enjoy the "no downstate" events. Do I want that for the game mode all the time? Hell no. It becomes a pure zerg and 1-shot fest.

    Hence the timing of this thread as 1 shots are taking a big hit.

    Let's wait and see shall we? Also as far as being 1 shot downed in wvw squad fights, that's going no where.

    Ye in large skill it will still exist, but zerg fights lasting a bit shorter wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing

    I'd say most players who enjoy the strategic back and forth would disagree. That was one of the annoying things of the no downstate week: all fights were decided by 1 push. Yes, it's fun for a while, then a few days in it got very boring.

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Please also don't mix downstate with rallying. One works off the other, but I would much rather have a "no rally from kills" week or change, thus requiring skills or manual resurrecting, over a complete removal of downstate.

    Out of curiosity, why do you hate rallying but not manual ressing, it seems quite a common opinion?

    I don't hate rallying. I said I'd prefer keeping the downstate and if at all removing the rallying but I am fine with the current system.

    Alright, it really wasn't meant as an attack, I was just curious.

    No offense taken.

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I am personally the exact opposite, if there was no manual ressing (or severly weaker) I would have rather few problems with the downstate. I also hate the various instaressing skills far more than rallying

    So you'd prefer for players who are in downstate to not be able to resurrect if no more enemies are close by? Or be forced to "wait" until everybody is out of combat or bleed out. Doesn't sound all to fun to me tbh.

    I meant keeping only the self ress part as that's slow and interrupted by damage (well strikes more specifically).

    Which still results in a lot of players now lying on the floor having to wait in downstate after a fight is over. Even worse, this shifts the entire fight onto the remaining not downed players, given the players in downstate are no danger any longer since they can't be resurrected with skills or by pressing F. Which in turn leads to even longer wait times for players who go into downstate with the winning team then at the end just farming off all the downstates.

    Still does not strike me as very fun.

    Now one might argue: but players would focus downstates to create rallies. No they would not. Damage is always pointed at the biggest threat of an enemy team, which without active heal skills of resurrection for downstates is active players. The only reason downstate players get focused now is because of the combined danger of them getting resurrected via skills instantly and by potentially rallying if ignoring them to long. Remove part of that equation and there is literally 0 reason to focus downstate players, especially if you can keep them in a permanent downstate with just 1 person hitting them occasionally.

    There is only 1 place where no downstate is realistically most fun or useful:
    Roaming against even or higher numbers, where downstates would prevent one from thinning out the opposition and allow for easier 1vx wins. Suffice to say, roaming is a niche group of players in this game mode.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    i'd rather prefer dead not beeing revivable than no downstate.

    I think this change alone would help more to balance size of groups. If you kill it, its gone. If you don't get your downed up, they are gone. Adds more strategy to the fight than we have today and more balance of risk to reward. A zerg has to better manage their downs then just having more numbers to keep their push alive. I also think it would increase smaller numbers chancing larger groups if they know their death had an impact on the larger force and slowing them down.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    i'd rather prefer dead not beeing revivable than no downstate.

    I think this change alone would help more to balance size of groups. If you kill it, its gone. If you don't get your downed up, they are gone. Adds more strategy to the fight than we have today and more balance of risk to reward. A zerg has to better manage their downs then just having more numbers to keep their push alive. I also think it would increase smaller numbers chancing larger groups if they know their death had an impact on the larger force and slowing them down.

    Errr... "gone" as in what, permadeath?

    Because otherwise this is the reality today. You cant res dead people in zerg combat - you can barely res downed people in a clash between two sizable groups, only a blind melee train let downed get back up. If someone dies they are already out, unless its just at the spawn. Few zerg battles last long enough for an extended run, most end in one push.

    What you describe what you want seems to instead be no rally.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    Gone as in must respawn. Right now if even one player of the larger side remains after the fight they could fully rez their entire zerg without losing any ground. There should be more of a price for being defeated then just having to wait to be rezzed. I could go with all the other downstate features if getting people to a defeated state had more impact on gameplay.

    Edit: phone had auto-spelled most whereas was looking for must.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    Gone as in most respawn. Right now if even one player of the larger side remains after the fight they could fully rez their entire zerg without losing any ground. There should be more of a price for being defeated then just having to wait to be rezzed. I could go with all the other downstate features if getting people to a defeated state had more impact on gameplay.

    It has an impact on gameplay. A 50 man zerg that dies on a keep... wont cap the keep at the same time. And it take a looooong time to gather a scattered zerg. In your own scenario the zerg with 1 guy left obviously won, or he'd also be dead as a doorknob. Can res without loosing ground? The winning side? What horror that they should hold their ground! Also literally every commander would say all back to spawn. Your scenario is nowhere near any realistic one so I dont really understand any of the arguments.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Mokk.2397Mokk.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    Removing it would force the devs to change or remove over 20 skills and traits . I would rather they concentrate their efforts on far more important issues . Also the stomp achievement would become impossible . Keeping the downed state deflects heals from the fighting group which can also significantly change how well the group sustains it's self . That in it's self can be used as a strategy to defeat certain groups . Downed state is also a buffer against ambush attacks . Take it away and this gives gankers far to much power . Many occasions I've been downed by stealth-ed gankers and turned the situation around because the attackers were so glassy my downed attack killed them. Also shoving a flag up a gankers back side is sooo satisfying . You have to remember as well if you take away the downed state this affects both sides . Another problem is we don't know what effect the new balance changes will have . People might regret not having downed state .
    Downed state is unique to this game and wouldn't want this game to turn into yet another version of WOW. Besides I payed for or collected a lot of finishers and don't want them to become useless because of the opinions of only a very few people .

    What I would like to see is a better balancing to the downed skills between classes. Some classes have an advantage over others because they can move or force movement of the non-downed. Other changes would be that remote stomps and stealthed stomps need to be removed . Another annoyance is the insta-stomp of warclaws . It's really annoying when you get someone downed and doing your victory stomp just to have some ***hat take your glory away with a warclaw.
    I voted not to change it because the poll is skewed towards removal or ineffectiveness . By making a skill ineffective would eventually force removal.
    KEEP THE DOWNED STATE.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    Gone as in most respawn. Right now if even one player of the larger side remains after the fight they could fully rez their entire zerg without losing any ground. There should be more of a price for being defeated then just having to wait to be rezzed. I could go with all the other downstate features if getting people to a defeated state had more impact on gameplay.

    It has an impact on gameplay. A 50 man zerg that dies on a keep... wont cap the keep at the same time. And it take a looooong time to gather a scattered zerg. In your own scenario the zerg with 1 guy left obviously won, or he'd also be dead as a doorknob. Can res without loosing ground? The winning side? What horror that they should hold their ground! Also literally every commander would say all back to spawn. Your scenario is nowhere near any realistic one so I dont really understand any of the arguments.

    Let me approach it from another front. Do you favor fights? If so do you not want to see more people encouraged to fight even if they know they will lose? I run more havoc then zerg. I like the no downstate weeks but its not because I run with a burst heavy group but it's more impactful for a smaller force to slow and or take on a larger one. But outside of those weeks there's little incentive for a smaller group to fight a larger or in this case one that is 4-10x your size since its meaningless. Anything you might kill will be gotten back up after the fight. The same does apply when talking warband versus zerg. So the game mechanic itself lends itself to avoiding a fight which to me is bad. Would it mean more people have to run back to the fight, yes. We have that today for any defender, but typically unless they lose the attackers don't have to do the same. Again to me, seems out of balance. So no, one to one rally is fine, but there should be more pressure on the decision to revive a downed player before they are defeated. Else there should be more of a price to pay.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Gwaihir.1745Gwaihir.1745 Member ✭✭✭
    Remove it

    @kialb.2098 said:
    I am an NPC

    Yep couldnt agree more

    Shield of Wrath: Reduced the cooldown of this skill from 36 seconds to 35 seconds.

    Quality balance changes^TM

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Don't change it

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    Gone as in most respawn. Right now if even one player of the larger side remains after the fight they could fully rez their entire zerg without losing any ground. There should be more of a price for being defeated then just having to wait to be rezzed. I could go with all the other downstate features if getting people to a defeated state had more impact on gameplay.

    It has an impact on gameplay. A 50 man zerg that dies on a keep... wont cap the keep at the same time. And it take a looooong time to gather a scattered zerg. In your own scenario the zerg with 1 guy left obviously won, or he'd also be dead as a doorknob. Can res without loosing ground? The winning side? What horror that they should hold their ground! Also literally every commander would say all back to spawn. Your scenario is nowhere near any realistic one so I dont really understand any of the arguments.

    Let me approach it from another front. Do you favor fights? If so do you not want to see more people encouraged to fight even if they know they will lose? I run more havoc then zerg. I like the no downstate weeks but its not because I run with a burst heavy group but it's more impactful for a smaller force to slow and or take on a larger one. But outside of those weeks there's little incentive for a smaller group to fight a larger or in this case one that is 4-10x your size since its meaningless. Anything you might kill will be gotten back up after the fight. The same does apply when talking warband versus zerg. So the game mechanic itself lends itself to avoiding a fight which to me is bad. Would it mean more people have to run back to the fight, yes. We have that today for any defender, but typically unless they lose the attackers don't have to do the same. Again to me, seems out of balance. So no, one to one rally is fine, but there should be more pressure on the decision to revive a downed player before they are defeated. Else there should be more of a price to pay.

    Welcome to WvW, where amount of players matters.

    Once you start balancing the game for 1v10 fights, you might as well close the game mode entirely.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    Gone as in most respawn. Right now if even one player of the larger side remains after the fight they could fully rez their entire zerg without losing any ground. There should be more of a price for being defeated then just having to wait to be rezzed. I could go with all the other downstate features if getting people to a defeated state had more impact on gameplay.

    It has an impact on gameplay. A 50 man zerg that dies on a keep... wont cap the keep at the same time. And it take a looooong time to gather a scattered zerg. In your own scenario the zerg with 1 guy left obviously won, or he'd also be dead as a doorknob. Can res without loosing ground? The winning side? What horror that they should hold their ground! Also literally every commander would say all back to spawn. Your scenario is nowhere near any realistic one so I dont really understand any of the arguments.

    Let me approach it from another front. Do you favor fights? If so do you not want to see more people encouraged to fight even if they know they will lose? I run more havoc then zerg. I like the no downstate weeks but its not because I run with a burst heavy group but it's more impactful for a smaller force to slow and or take on a larger one. But outside of those weeks there's little incentive for a smaller group to fight a larger or in this case one that is 4-10x your size since its meaningless. Anything you might kill will be gotten back up after the fight. The same does apply when talking warband versus zerg. So the game mechanic itself lends itself to avoiding a fight which to me is bad. Would it mean more people have to run back to the fight, yes. We have that today for any defender, but typically unless they lose the attackers don't have to do the same. Again to me, seems out of balance. So no, one to one rally is fine, but there should be more pressure on the decision to revive a downed player before they are defeated. Else there should be more of a price to pay.

    There is nothing about downstate that lends itself to "avoiding a fight". Quite the contrary, if you start to punish people for dying, it's not going to be fun to fight. Because you will die. That's how fights work. One guy wins, the other guy looses. And if you happen to be the one loosing... bring more people. That is literally how WvW create fights.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Don't change it

    what shall i say, our server usually pushes three times bigger groups... because there's no other options. on rev i can jump into a group of six people, and without support i die after downing two and damaging the others to 50%ish; with support they're done for, that's why teamwork is that important.

    usually people don't stay lying around dead, from my experience only "noobs" tend to do that; even in zerg fights, only 10ish die at a regular push, and they usually just respawn. those that get revived after a zerg clash are like 5 people at best, since reviving full dead just takes too long to be efficient. most servers watch the dead spots and snipe the revivers, that's why it usually is a bad idea to field-revive.

    and i honestly don't think "no-downstate" fixes anything. again, the balance patch might make it more interesting, but the main word here is "might". from the curent state, it'd be toxic for the meta - you'd just have to bring a zerg of dps and every attacker needs to bring at least a blob to take keeps, because one push can easily pick up about 5 casulties amongst the attackers, even on rather equal terms of power; in the end it becomes easier to close keeps and the attackers would pretty often fail.

    your "lower numbers" only counts if we talk about heavy outnumbering, like 4 against 15. that only works if the 15 are really uncoordinated and a lord of desert border helps the defenders too. it also always depends on the style of the battle. 10 people can cloud off 30 easily, if those spread out too far they're basically dead. one dying rather functions as newbie-bait and pull those in, leading to 3-4 probs dead within seconds while they try to up the one downed etc

    ... also i've never ever seen zergfights with 1 survivor. that just doesn't happen.