Add some actual challange to Group Events — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Add some actual challange to Group Events

Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 5, 2020 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

I think it's a shame that most group events and even world bosses can be simply zerged down. Since they are so easy people don't even talk at all during those events. They might as well be NPC's. Adding even some basic mechanics like 2 champs that have to die at the same time can make people actually communicate, make friends and move into fractals/raiding.

<1

Comments

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Also add less challenge to challenging content, so players have the time to actually communicate instead of focusing on their rotations. They might as well be bots. That way they can socialize, make friends and move into more social experiences.

    GW2 has no content that is so challanging it doesn't allow for communication. If you mean raids, youre supposed to be in voice chat for that. Besides, focusing on rotation? Give me a break, as long as you follow the mechanics and do a half decent job on your dps you can clear all the bosses no problem.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Also add less challenge to challenging content, so players have the time to actually communicate instead of focusing on their rotations. They might as well be bots. That way they can socialize, make friends and move into more social experiences.

    GW2 has no content that is so challanging it doesn't allow for communication. If you mean raids, youre supposed to be in voice chat for that. Besides, focusing on rotation? Give me a break, as long as you follow the mechanics and do a half decent job on your dps you can clear all the bosses no problem.

    I didn't know the only place you're allowed to talk is during raids. I'm sorry that I've been using the chat systems outside of that content. It will never happen again!

    Or I'm just going to continue talking in chat and socialize, while you're still waiting for people to talk to you.

    You misunderstood me.
    You're allowed to talk everywhere, I WANT people to talk, its just that people don't do it because its way too easy. If you add some challange people will actually talk. In fractals for example you pretty much HAVE to talk to complete the harder ones, which is great. In raids you really need voice chat because typing might take too long for some tight mechanics.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Also add less challenge to challenging content, so players have the time to actually communicate instead of focusing on their rotations. They might as well be bots. That way they can socialize, make friends and move into more social experiences.

    GW2 has no content that is so challanging it doesn't allow for communication. If you mean raids, youre supposed to be in voice chat for that. Besides, focusing on rotation? Give me a break, as long as you follow the mechanics and do a half decent job on your dps you can clear all the bosses no problem.

    I didn't know the only place you're allowed to talk is during raids. I'm sorry that I've been using the chat systems outside of that content. It will never happen again!

    Or I'm just going to continue talking in chat and socialize, while you're still waiting for people to talk to you.

    You misunderstood me.
    You're allowed to talk everywhere, its just that people don't do it because its way too easy. If you add some challange people will actually talk. In fractals for example you pretty much HAVE to talk to complete the harder ones, which is great. In raids you really need voice chat because typing might take too long for some tight mechanics.

    But if you add challenge people can't talk, since they have to focus on the gameplay and the mechanics. People also talk because they like to talk, not because they're forced to do it, which is great. Raids don't need voicecomms if your group and you are good enough, but everyone is free to use voice comms, if they'd like.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Also add less challenge to challenging content, so players have the time to actually communicate instead of focusing on their rotations. They might as well be bots. That way they can socialize, make friends and move into more social experiences.

    GW2 has no content that is so challanging it doesn't allow for communication. If you mean raids, youre supposed to be in voice chat for that. Besides, focusing on rotation? Give me a break, as long as you follow the mechanics and do a half decent job on your dps you can clear all the bosses no problem.

    I didn't know the only place you're allowed to talk is during raids. I'm sorry that I've been using the chat systems outside of that content. It will never happen again!

    Or I'm just going to continue talking in chat and socialize, while you're still waiting for people to talk to you.

    You misunderstood me.
    You're allowed to talk everywhere, its just that people don't do it because its way too easy. If you add some challange people will actually talk. In fractals for example you pretty much HAVE to talk to complete the harder ones, which is great. In raids you really need voice chat because typing might take too long for some tight mechanics.

    But if you add challenge people can't talk, since they have to focus on the gameplay and the mechanics. People also talk because they like to talk, not because they're forced to do it, which is great. Raids don't need voicecomms if your group and you are good enough, but everyone is free to use voice comms, if they'd like.

    Do you see people talk during open world events? I sure don't. Added challenge means you HAVE to talk and coordinate to succeed. I don't understand where you're coming from.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    Triple Trouble is one major exception. Although they may not talk in map chat, leaders prefer to use a ts/discord server instead and communicate to everyone in their lane what is happening. The only other one I can think of is Dragon Stand where communicating in map chat does happen. Oh and Shatterer to get the cc achievement

    I'm not necessary a fan of the need to use such resources to coordinate pve boss fights, but I do think we are overdue a boss fight of that calibre. It is a shame Drakkar didn't fit that bill because it was deserving of it.

    The problem with too much challenge is that the majority of players who populate open world, would just steer away from it. It needs to be a centrepiece like the aforementioned ones. In that scenario, I am in favour of rare, selective very challenging open world group events

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Triple Trouble is one major exception. Although they may not talk in map chat, leaders prefer to use a ts/discord server instead and communicate to everyone in their lane what is happening. The only other one I can think of is Dragon Stand where communicating in map chat does happen. Oh and Shatterer to get the cc achievement

    I'm not necessary a fan of the need to use such resources to coordinate pve boss fights, but I do think we are overdue a boss fight of that calibre. It is a shame Drakkar didn't fit that bill because it was deserving of it.

    The problem with too much challenge is that the majority of players who populate open world, would just steer away from it. It needs to be a centrepiece like the aforementioned ones. In that scenario, I am in favour of rare, selective very challenging open world group events

    You're talking about extremes here, why not add a little challange to most events to encourage socializing?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    It isn't the lack of challenge which is the obstacle to a social map chat though or even between players in a small area. The mega server probably killed the last remnant of that, but this is a dynamic game. Players are constantly shooting off to a new event, a new activity across the World. MMO's traditionally were pretty static affairs and players congregated more. Congregation promotes socialising. So players tend to talk in Guild chats or in voice chat servers. Inter channel chat beyond that is no longer a thing for many reasons - it can't just be fixed with the addition of some mechanics. If anything it risks keeping players away if you over challenge in the events.

    Challenging will help a small amount, but to no significant degree. Otherwise we would see more chat at bounties beyond "come to my tag". No one really discusses the mechanics at all.

    For the record, I am not against mechanics or challenge -as I said I am all for it, but more in the vein of the examples labelled "more extreme". I just don't think it will solve the issue you hope it will if we started adding more challenge to other smaller events. I'm not convinced the wider players here want verbal interaction in the open world.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Pirogen.9561Pirogen.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    I think it's a shame that most group events and even world bosses can be simply zerged down. Since they are so easy people don't even talk at all during those events. They might as well be NPC's. Adding even some basic mechanics like 2 champs that have to die at the same time can make people actually communicate, make friends and move into fractals/raiding.

    If all would chat, then there would be chaos.

    Plus, do you fight that big boss or you chat?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I often find much of map chat to be immature, which is why I ignore it or otherwise change my channel to not have to see it. When a group is hanging out waiting for world boss pre-events and the discussion entails bodily functions and how they relate to each others mothers, I really have no desire to participate.

    This is also related the rest of the problem. I reckon a lot of players turn off map and other tabs. For various reasons - immaturity, language barriers, avoidance of spoilers, keeping chat to just guild and so forth. I rarely acknowledge pm's unless it's a courteous request for help. Otherwise it is ignored (or like today...blocked)

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can see both sides in this discussion, and can both agree and disagree with both sides.

    • Increasing difficulty in various group events would force people to ask questions in chat more often, but it would also make a lot of players just ignore it and stop doing it, thus not participating in chat. Also asking questions in map chat can be both good and bad, some get offended when others try to explain mechanics, and half the comments would likely be raging that they had to make a perfectly fine boss into an annoying raid encounter etc. And most people likely wouldn't have time to type during the actual fight, because it was harder.
    • Keeping it as is or even making it easier wouldn't change the current status, which is to let players socialize if and when they want. While keeping the easy group content the way they are, as a way to gather up players in order to play together (as a way to encourage, but not force, social interaction).

    It's largely a question of design and ideology. Anet has always aimed for "Encouraging" social interacts, instead of "Forcing" as we're used to from a lot of other MMO games (WoW for example). As with absolutely everything else, this has its positives and negative sides, obviously.

    GW2 is largely set up around giving every player every chance, situation and tool they need to make their own social interactions. Basically it works just like real life where you as a player have to be social to get social interaction. Where several other MMO's are built around the forcing people together and forcing them to interact to succeed or survive, traditionally this has actually been very popular with players that might struggle with forcing themselves to socialize in the real world.

    The consequences to this design in GW2 is that even more so than in other MMO's I've seen, the default way to play for a lot of players becomes "Single Player Game". Turn off map chat because you don't need it, and just try to ignore the other players, and play it like Skyrim.

    As with everything in life, game design is another scale you have to balance both sides, and there is no "best" or "worst".

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "cc now" isn't exactly riveting conversation.
    Neither is "omg South borked it up AGAIN!!"

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I often find much of map chat to be immature, which is why I ignore it or otherwise change my channel to not have to see it. When a group is hanging out waiting for world boss pre-events and the discussion entails bodily functions and how they relate to each others mothers, I really have no desire to participate.

    Same. Usually the same folks with edgy/stolen/"joke" names with nothing of importance to say. So, map chat stays off, unless I'm actually participating in a meta event.
    And then I regret it, because it's all preemptive-GG and some hax talking about everyone else's dps. Even the ones invested don't communicate more than they should to finish an event.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    More challenge means fewer people show up...that's the reality of a casual oriented games. If people don't show up, then who are you going to talk to?

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Lambent.6375Lambent.6375 Member ✭✭✭

    They just wouldn't do them, like silkears is often ignored/failed in desert highlands.

    And yes, I've killed him a couple times the past few weeks.

    @FOX.3582 said:
    A freaking chair. Woah. I personally can't wait to buy a gem store CHAIR, so all my characters can SIT around in Tyria while other players see me, SITTING there, looking like a [email protected] ...

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    I think it's a shame that most group events and even world bosses can be simply zerged down. Since they are so easy people don't even talk at all during those events. They might as well be NPC's. Adding even some basic mechanics like 2 champs that have to die at the same time can make people actually communicate, make friends and move into fractals/raiding.

    People want easy world bosses. They are all good. What's this crazy obsession with "Challenge"?!

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.
    Hashtag BlameMcLain

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    I think it's a shame that most group events and even world bosses can be simply zerged down. Since they are so easy people don't even talk at all during those events. They might as well be NPC's. Adding even some basic mechanics like 2 champs that have to die at the same time can make people actually communicate, make friends and move into fractals/raiding.

    People want easy world bosses. They are all good. What's this crazy obsession with "Challenge"?!

    Are you serious?

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lambent.6375 said:
    They just wouldn't do them, like silkears is often ignored/failed in desert highlands.

    And yes, I've killed him a couple times the past few weeks.

    Im only talking here about a SLIGHT increase in challange. Some VERY basic mechanic simply to stop the mindless zerging.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    More challenge means fewer people show up...that's the reality of a casual oriented games. If people don't show up, then who are you going to talk to?

    Again, Im talking about a SLIGHT increase in challange. Just some VERY basic mechanics simply to prevent mindless zerging.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    I think it's a shame that most group events and even world bosses can be simply zerged down. Since they are so easy people don't even talk at all during those events. They might as well be NPC's. Adding even some basic mechanics like 2 champs that have to die at the same time can make people actually communicate, make friends and move into fractals/raiding.

    People want easy world bosses. They are all good. What's this crazy obsession with "Challenge"?!

    Are you serious?

    Many people seem to want the game to be as easy as possible. Probably even easier if they could get it. So I would assume they are serious.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    From what I've gathered most PvE players in this game don't desire challenge. They just want "GW2-Clicker-Heroes" where you press one button to win your shiny. Not too fast either, their finger might get worn out.

    Please don't paint with such a broad brush.

    Okay, my bad. I should have worded it as "The vocal group of PvE players I've encountered here on the forums".

    And you're not part of that "vocal group of PvE players that can be encountered here on the forums" i guess?

    No no, hes clearly part of the "Vocal Raiding player base on the forums."

    To the OP,

    Im all for an increase in difficulty under two conditions.

    1.) its natural and it begins from the first world boss available and moves upwards up to a certain level that is never surpassed, allowing the largest amount of players to get 100% participation.
    2.) the event is never wasted time, if one fails they still get full rewards based on how they participate(and it needs to be a bit more than Bronze, silver, gold.), nothing is worse than doing your best and getting nothing because others did not.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    What does "challenge" mean, in this context?
    Longer TTK? Puzzle elements? Scripted immunity/phasing? Secondary event completion?
    Do you want to think harder, work harder, try harder, plan harder, die harder?

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trise.2865 said:
    What does "challenge" mean, in this context?
    Longer TTK? Puzzle elements? Scripted immunity/phasing? Secondary event completion?
    Do you want to think harder, work harder, try harder, plan harder, die harder?

    I've actually given an example. Some basic mechanics that make mindless zerging impossible.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    I think it's a shame that most group events and even world bosses can be simply zerged down. Since they are so easy people don't even talk at all during those events. They might as well be NPC's. Adding even some basic mechanics like 2 champs that have to die at the same time can make people actually communicate, make friends and move into fractals/raiding.

    People want easy world bosses. They are all good. What's this crazy obsession with "Challenge"?!

    Are you serious?

    Many people seem to want the game to be as easy as possible. Probably even easier if they could get it. So I would assume they are serious.

    I don't get it...if the game offers no resistance at all why play it?

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    From what I've gathered most PvE players in this game don't desire challenge. They just want "GW2-Clicker-Heroes" where you press one button to win your shiny. Not too fast either, their finger might get worn out.

    Please don't paint with such a broad brush.

    Okay, my bad. I should have worded it as "The vocal group of PvE players I've encountered here on the forums".

    And you're not part of that "vocal group of PvE players that can be encountered here on the forums" i guess?

    No no, hes clearly part of the "Vocal Raiding player base on the forums."

    To the OP,

    Im all for an increase in difficulty under two conditions.

    1.) its natural and it begins from the first world boss available and moves upwards up to a certain level that is never surpassed, allowing the largest amount of players to get 100% participation.
    2.) the event is never wasted time, if one fails they still get full rewards based on how they participate(and it needs to be a bit more than Bronze, silver, gold.), nothing is worse than doing your best and getting nothing because others did not.

    I totally agree, it's no wonder people feel stumled by challange. They have developed bad habits from their early experience where everything can be killed while mindlessly zerging it down.
    Again, I'm talking about VERY basic mechanics simply to prevent mindless zerging.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

    Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

    Let's be honest, we all want to feel like we have some input into our circumstances. That's what "Elections" were supposed to provide, way back in the day when people believed in democracy, lol, remember that?!

    I wouldn't like to see old world bosses (as defined by /wiki Event Timer) become more complex because it would be a lot of effort to rework them. I think the potential is there for additional utility such as the Essence concept from Bjora, instead.
    Bear in mind that Additive content is something that Arenanet has always favoured over reworking existing content. This is part of Accretion as discussed by Extra Credits.

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.
    Hashtag BlameMcLain

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

    Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

    Action games are about quick reflexes, startegy games are about well, strategy. Even Sims requires you to manage resources. Are you bananas?

    And MMOs are about socializing. So when i play an MMO and get an action game instead, excuse me for not feeling all that comfortable with it.

    MMORPGs are well, RPGs. They are about playing together to overcome challenges. An RPG without any challange is.... just dumb. Facebook on the other hand is for socializing.
    Btw, in real life you also have a say about what's going on with you. A shocker, I know.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

    Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

    Action games are about quick reflexes, startegy games are about well, strategy. Even Sims requires you to manage resources. Are you bananas?

    And MMOs are about socializing. So when i play an MMO and get an action game instead, excuse me for not feeling all that comfortable with it.

    MMORPGs are well, RPGs. They are about playing together to overcome challenges.

    First, MMORPGs don't have that much in common with pen & paper RPGs (and they never did). Second, yes, RPGs may be about playing together to overcome challenges, however the challenge does not lie in defeating an opponent, but in creating an interesting story. Role Playing Games, not Roll Playing Games.

    An RPG without any challange is.... just dumb.

    So is an RPG where challenge becomes more important than the "role playing" part.

    In short, challenges are okay. But if the challenges introduced start negatively affecting the social factor of the MMORPGs, then they become a problem.

    Like my signature says: "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.". The whole design of raids is made around an assumption that you will need to pick players to group with to fit the content, instead of doing it the other way around, like it should be.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zityz.6089zityz.6089 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think the term "challange" is what your going for, I think you mean you don't want the world bosses to be basic. Which a lot of them tend to be, but the idea of having to communicate WHILE you are fighting the world boss is a terrible idea because that usually indicated poor planning.

    Most fractals/or more intricate bosses, the mechanics are typed before the fight so people know what to expect, not during. That's usually left to people getting too emotional during the fight and typing non helping phrases into the actual chat.

    If they want to fix the intricacies of world bosses, before they change mechanics, they need to make a way to cut down on the eye sore that is 50+ people's skills going off all at the same time, making the barely seen dim red circles/patterns more effective. The reason why it works well in Dungeons, strike missions, raids, fractals is because with 5- 10 people in a team, the skill spam animations are no where near as bad so mechanics can be seen/ more diverse .

    Triple trouble is hard to some people, not because the mechanics are "challenging" but because instead of a squad of 5-10 people per spot, you have multiple squads with tons of people moving about and creating skill animation clutter which can get lost in the mix of what needs to be done, but since it is a world boss, they're defaulted to having absurd amount of health to compensate for the amount of people.

    More proof of this can even be seen in the ooze pits in Grothmar. It's just a group event, but look at the difference between a group closed off into one of the 3 sections with skills going off, to when the whole pit is open. How many people attack the ooze without colour changing? a lot, because I'm sure most of them cannot even see the colours on the ground due to the bright intensity of the skills being spammed to kill the oozes.

    This is just from my perspective from over the years of playing, this may not represent from everyone's play perspective.

  • @zityz.6089 said:
    I don't think the term "challange" is what your going for, I think you mean you don't want the world bosses to be basic. Which a lot of them tend to be, but the idea of having to communicate WHILE you are fighting the world boss is a terrible idea because that usually indicated poor planning.

    I agree with this, and therefore think OP is terribly off the mark about more challenging world bosses. Merely eliminating the ability to mindlessly zerg will lead to, at best, a few callouts from the tag to "stop DPS at 10%"... "guys I said stop"... " kitten STOP ATTACKING" or similar such gems.

    I command DS meta lanes all the time, and from a command standpoint it's definitely not just a mindless zerg. However, despite me communicating a lot, most of the time it's just one-way communication. It's me as the tag acting as a zerg magnet so the mass of players stay in the right place doing the right thing with me, while directing a smaller cadre of the squad to make sure the other event gets covered/boss platform doesn't get overpopulated/etc.

    And as a commander, I honestly like it better when communication is largely one-way. Most things in chat beyond "ty" or "ok" are either dumb kitten questions that were already answered several times, or someone looking for general gameplay/endgame guidance that I have no patience for.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

    Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

    Action games are about quick reflexes, startegy games are about well, strategy. Even Sims requires you to manage resources. Are you bananas?

    And MMOs are about socializing. So when i play an MMO and get an action game instead, excuse me for not feeling all that comfortable with it.

    MMORPGs are well, RPGs. They are about playing together to overcome challenges.

    First, MMORPGs don't have that much in common with pen & paper RPGs (and they never did). Second, yes, RPGs may be about playing together to overcome challenges, however the challenge does not lie in defeating an opponent, but in creating an interesting story. Role Playing Games, not Roll Playing Games.

    An RPG without any challange is.... just dumb.

    So is an RPG where challenge becomes more important than the "role playing" part.

    In short, challenges are okay. But if the challenges introduced start negatively affecting the social factor of the MMORPGs, then they become a problem.

    Like my signature says: "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.". The whole design of raids is made around an assumption that you will need to pick players to group with to fit the content, instead of doing it the other way around, like it should be.

    Raids/Fractals in GW2 are so easy you can do them with literally any group of friends if you just follow the mechanics. Honestly, people like you baffle me. If the game offers no challenge you will have a better time on Facebook socializing, you don't need a game for that. The whole point of multi player games is Cooperating with others.
    If all you're doing is just mindlessly zerging down the event youre not cooperating.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @zityz.6089 said:
    I don't think the term "challange" is what your going for, I think you mean you don't want the world bosses to be basic. Which a lot of them tend to be, but the idea of having to communicate WHILE you are fighting the world boss is a terrible idea because that usually indicated poor planning.

    Most fractals/or more intricate bosses, the mechanics are typed before the fight so people know what to expect, not during. That's usually left to people getting too emotional during the fight and typing non helping phrases into the actual chat.

    If they want to fix the intricacies of world bosses, before they change mechanics, they need to make a way to cut down on the eye sore that is 50+ people's skills going off all at the same time, making the barely seen dim red circles/patterns more effective. The reason why it works well in Dungeons, strike missions, raids, fractals is because with 5- 10 people in a team, the skill spam animations are no where near as bad so mechanics can be seen/ more diverse .

    Triple trouble is hard to some people, not because the mechanics are "challenging" but because instead of a squad of 5-10 people per spot, you have multiple squads with tons of people moving about and creating skill animation clutter which can get lost in the mix of what needs to be done, but since it is a world boss, they're defaulted to having absurd amount of health to compensate for the amount of people.

    More proof of this can even be seen in the ooze pits in Grothmar. It's just a group event, but look at the difference between a group closed off into one of the 3 sections with skills going off, to when the whole pit is open. How many people attack the ooze without colour changing? a lot, because I'm sure most of them cannot even see the colours on the ground due to the bright intensity of the skills being spammed to kill the oozes.

    This is just from my perspective from over the years of playing, this may not represent from everyone's play perspective.

    I did say all I want is for them to add some basic mechanics. Simply to prevent mindless zerging. My main problem is not world bosses but rather Group events. You see 10 people mindlessly zerging down a poor champion while ignoring all of his mechanics and still get the job done.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

    Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

    Action games are about quick reflexes, startegy games are about well, strategy. Even Sims requires you to manage resources. Are you bananas?

    And MMOs are about socializing. So when i play an MMO and get an action game instead, excuse me for not feeling all that comfortable with it.

    MMORPGs are well, RPGs. They are about playing together to overcome challenges.

    First, MMORPGs don't have that much in common with pen & paper RPGs (and they never did). Second, yes, RPGs may be about playing together to overcome challenges, however the challenge does not lie in defeating an opponent, but in creating an interesting story. Role Playing Games, not Roll Playing Games.

    An RPG without any challange is.... just dumb.

    So is an RPG where challenge becomes more important than the "role playing" part.

    In short, challenges are okay. But if the challenges introduced start negatively affecting the social factor of the MMORPGs, then they become a problem.

    Like my signature says: "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.". The whole design of raids is made around an assumption that you will need to pick players to group with to fit the content, instead of doing it the other way around, like it should be.

    Raids/Fractals in GW2 are so easy you can do them with literally any group of friends if you just follow the mechanics. Honestly, people like you baffle me. If the game offers no challenge you will have a better time on Facebook socializing, you don't need a game for that. The whole point of multi player games is Cooperating with others.
    If all you're doing is just mindlessly zerging down the event youre not cooperating.

    Ill argue that and say no, they arent that easy, keep in mind i agree with wanting more challenge for the bosses.

    My group of friends that i play with 90% of the time(when im not doing raids or fractals) cannot do Raids, period. They dont enjoy running specific builds or requiring players to use specific classes for content. they dont want to learn the mechanics or they have mental/physical reasons they cannot do them, even i have issues with mechanics due to a hand that half the time refuses to respond when i want it to.

    Co operating with others =/= challenge. I cooperate with players constantly in non challenging content, one does not need challenge to have cooperation and vice versa. The new Drakkar fight is freaking awful because of what happens when two completely opposite groups of players are forced to clash.(when it fails).

    This game has as a vast majority of its population, casual players(not the "suck at the game, dont wanna try, dont care, kind either.") . The kind that are here because they dont want to play typical MMOs. The kind that you want to make this game into. Trying to do so has not, and is not working out for anet(weve already got threads going on both here and reddit complaining about strikes.) when the silent majority get upset thats when things go wrong.

    edit: just to be clear, i do want more mechanics/challenge for bosses. Just not the extent that they become impossible for silent majority of players.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

    Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

    Action games are about quick reflexes, startegy games are about well, strategy. Even Sims requires you to manage resources. Are you bananas?

    And MMOs are about socializing. So when i play an MMO and get an action game instead, excuse me for not feeling all that comfortable with it.

    MMORPGs are well, RPGs. They are about playing together to overcome challenges.

    First, MMORPGs don't have that much in common with pen & paper RPGs (and they never did). Second, yes, RPGs may be about playing together to overcome challenges, however the challenge does not lie in defeating an opponent, but in creating an interesting story. Role Playing Games, not Roll Playing Games.

    An RPG without any challange is.... just dumb.

    So is an RPG where challenge becomes more important than the "role playing" part.

    In short, challenges are okay. But if the challenges introduced start negatively affecting the social factor of the MMORPGs, then they become a problem.

    Like my signature says: "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.". The whole design of raids is made around an assumption that you will need to pick players to group with to fit the content, instead of doing it the other way around, like it should be.

    Raids/Fractals in GW2 are so easy you can do them with literally any group of friends if you just follow the mechanics. Honestly, people like you baffle me. If the game offers no challenge you will have a better time on Facebook socializing, you don't need a game for that. The whole point of multi player games is Cooperating with others.
    If all you're doing is just mindlessly zerging down the event youre not cooperating.

    Ill argue that and say no, they arent that easy, keep in mind i agree with wanting more challenge for the bosses.

    My group of friends that i play with 90% of the time(when im not doing raids or fractals) cannot do Raids, period. They dont enjoy running specific builds or requiring players to use specific classes for content. they dont want to learn the mechanics or they have mental/physical reasons they cannot do them, even i have issues with mechanics due to a hand that half the time refuses to respond when i want it to.

    Co operating with others =/= challenge. I cooperate with players constantly in non challenging content, one does not need challenge to have cooperation and vice versa. The new Drakkar fight is freaking awful because of what happens when two completely opposite groups of players are forced to clash.(when it fails).

    This game has as a vast majority of its population, casual players(not the "suck at the game, dont wanna try, dont care, kind either.") . The kind that are here because they dont want to play typical MMOs. The kind that you want to make this game into. Trying to do so has not, and is not working out for anet(weve already got threads going on both here and reddit complaining about strikes.) when the silent majority get upset thats when things go wrong.

    edit: just to be clear, i do want more mechanics/challenge for bosses. Just not the extent that they become impossible for silent majority of players.

    They don't want to learn mechanics? Why are they in the raid in the first place?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    They don't want to learn mechanics? Why are they in the raid in the first place?

    Generally, either because they want something that's in there, or because they don't know yet it's not the content for them.
    But, the general answer is that they aren't in raids. So, don't try to bring raids to them either.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    OP doesn't understand this game or the people that play it. If people wanted what he is asking for, they wouldn't be playing GW2 in the first place.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    OP doesn't understand this game or the people that play it. If people wanted what he is asking for, they wouldn't be playing GW2 in the first place.

    Then why Raids and challenge modes are in the game? :confused:

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It looks to me as if people are misunderstand how the other side uses the word "challenge" in this thread.

    From my understanding of what the Original Poster has said through this thread:

    They want Group Events to have some kind of mechanics that forces players to interact beyond just standing on one spot auto-attacking until things are dead. Basically make so that Group Event's aren't just "Loot Pinatas".

    Examples:

    • Players have to gather ammunition to some cannons that has to be fired to make a boss/champion vulnerable to normal attacks
    • Boss/Champion that changes phases, where it could for example go invulnerable, do conditions on block, or strong retaliation. Forcing players to pay attention and stop attacking.
    • Boss/Champion that moves around as the fight goes on, require people to move after, jump over things etc.

    All of these could be done without actually making the Boss/Champion any noticeably "Harder".


    Challenging doesn't inherently mean harder, it primary refer to physical or mental effort, like solving a difficult crosswords.


    Example: Shadow Behemoth

    This boss already have a mechanic for this, by spawning the portals and turning invulnerable until the portals are all destroyed.

    The problem with this boss is that half or so of the players just ignore the portals and stand in the safe spot in front of him and wait to auto-attack when he becomes target-able again.

    So how to make this boss feel more active?

    • Instead of making him invulnerable/non-target-able he could instead block all attacks and cause conditions on block, so people have to pay some attention and stop attacking.
    • Remove safe spots, and let him aoe more randomly so people have to pay attention and move around.
    • Alternatively have portals and mobs spawn closer to the safe spot to drag more players into that part.
    • Make more portals, or make them harder to take out, so more people have to help out removing them. To avoid that 10 people can do the mechanics for a much larger group.
    • Alternatively make SB carpet bomb from the front and expanding until the Portals are taken away, so people want to move away and toward the portals.

    None of these would make the boss any harder, they would just require people to pay attention, read the (update) event text about mechanics, and pay attention to what others did and follow up. And would make people have to move around a bit to survive, and pay attention to what and when they attacked.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    It looks to me as if people are misunderstand how the other side uses the word "challenge" in this thread.

    From my understanding of what the Original Poster has said through this thread:

    They want Group Events to have some kind of mechanics that forces players to interact beyond just standing on one spot auto-attacking until things are dead. Basically make so that Group Event's aren't just "Loot Pinatas".

    Examples:

    • Players have to gather ammunition to some cannons that has to be fired to make a boss/champion vulnerable to normal attacks
    • Boss/Champion that changes phases, where it could for example go invulnerable, do conditions on block, or strong retaliation. Forcing players to pay attention and stop attacking.
    • Boss/Champion that moves around as the fight goes on, require people to move after, jump over things etc.

    All of these could be done without actually making the Boss/Champion any noticeably "Harder".


    Challenging doesn't inherently mean harder, it primary refer to physical or mental effort, like solving a difficult crosswords.


    Example: Shadow Behemoth

    This boss already have a mechanic for this, by spawning the portals and turning invulnerable until the portals are all destroyed.

    The problem with this boss is that half or so of the players just ignore the portals and stand in the safe spot in front of him and wait to auto-attack when he becomes target-able again.

    So how to make this boss feel more active?

    • Instead of making him invulnerable/non-target-able he could instead block all attacks and cause conditions on block, so people have to pay some attention and stop attacking.
    • Remove safe spots, and let him aoe more randomly so people have to pay attention and move around.
    • Alternatively have portals and mobs spawn closer to the safe spot to drag more players into that part.
    • Make more portals, or make them harder to take out, so more people have to help out removing them. To avoid that 10 people can do the mechanics for a much larger group.
    • Alternatively make SB carpet bomb from the front and expanding until the Portals are taken away, so people want to move away and toward the portals.

    None of these would make the boss any harder, they would just require people to pay attention, read the (update) event text about mechanics, and pay attention to what others did and follow up. And would make people have to move around a bit to survive, and pay attention to what and when they attacked.

    Finally, someone understands

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    OP doesn't understand this game or the people that play it. If people wanted what he is asking for, they wouldn't be playing GW2 in the first place.

    Then why Raids and challenge modes are in the game? :confused:

    That's a good question. Basically, Anet just admitted that the number of players that were interested in them just isn't big enough to justify developing that type of content. Although it seems, that devs, instead of following that finding to its logical conclusion, still hope they will be able to somehow change the players. I don't think it's going to work any better than all the previous attempts, though.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @zityz.6089 said:
    How many people attack the ooze without colour changing? a lot, because I'm sure most of them cannot even see the colours on the ground due to the bright intensity of the skills being spammed to kill the oozes.

    I just highlighted something that I, as an experienced player, didn't pick up on the first couple of times either. I had the same trouble with the Wolverine challenge in Bjora. When I finally did notice the circles I thought they were just more things to be avoided. Ground spam is a long standing problem.

    I think a far simpler "Green is good. Red is bad." alteration to the floor skills might be in order. No one really cares what the boons are doing in metas, they just want them. Keep the fancy clock animation for the Chrono themselves and let the rest of us just see a green circle.

    ...

  • Didn't the Devs add those kind of mechanics to Bounties? I just did a Bounty run, and there wasn't any chatter other than between Bounties asking which one to do next.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:
    What does "challenge" mean, in this context?
    Longer TTK? Puzzle elements? Scripted immunity/phasing? Secondary event completion?
    Do you want to think harder, work harder, try harder, plan harder, die harder?

    I've actually given an example. Some basic mechanics that make mindless zerging impossible.

    So the definitive example is "do something".

    Well, at least jonerikb is actually trying...

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.