Does it make sense for every skill with a CC to have a multiplier of .01? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Does it make sense for every skill with a CC to have a multiplier of .01?

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  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

    It's still an Elite skill because it does other things other than just CC and it has a high base damage. I believe that it's ok to have high base damage just because it's an Elite. Other skills should not have a CC, high base damage, and high coef. -- that's just too much for a single non-Elite skill.

    There is no such thing as base damage in this game.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

    So many people thinking the changes are fine because only the scaling is being hit and not the base damage but there is no base damage, scaling is the only thing that matters and this skill will be hitting for double digits at most after this ridiculous change just like those rampage skills.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    It's a good change overall, but some skills should be exempt from the rule.

    As an example:

    Prime Light Beam should've been nerfed from a 3.0 coefficient to a 2.0 coefficient.
    New Effect: You are now revealed for 1 second upon cast.

    It's a fair ability on it's own. What was breaking the skill was the ability to cast it in stealth. This removes the large tell, which is supposed to be the main tradeoff of the ability.

    All Anet's change serves to accomplish is promote an unhealthy design. Hiding the tell of big impact skills in stealth removes the intended counterplay of these types of skills. If you nerf the damage of Prime Light Beam to 0.01, the player loses out on the tradeoff of landing such a highly telegraphed skill. In other words, it's not worth casting a skill like prime light beam while visible because even if it does hit, your only reward is a bit of CC. This encourages players to combo the ability with stealth. This way you remove the tradeoff and make the skill actually worth casting.

    If you only choose to cast the nerfed prime light beam when people can see it coming, I have to question whether you'd get more value out of taking Mortar Kit or Elixir S instead. The former is much more reliable and brings some nice utility to the table, and the latter brings more CC in both Rampage and Tornado that is far easier to land.

    Allow Prime Light Beam to hit hard, but remove the ability to hide the skill in stealth. This is a much healthier route than simply nerfing the damage into oblivion.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    It's a good change overall, but some skills should be exempt from the rule.

    As an example:

    Prime Light Beam should've been nerfed from a 3.0 coefficient to a 2.0 coefficient.
    New Effect: You are now revealed for 1 second upon cast.

    It's a fair ability on it's own. What was breaking the skill was the ability to cast it in stealth. This removes the large tell, which is supposed to be the main tradeoff of the ability.

    All Anet's change serves to accomplish is promote an unhealthy design. Hiding the tell of big impact skills in stealth removes the intended counterplay of these types of skills. If you nerf the damage of Prime Light Beam to 0.01, the player loses out on the tradeoff of landing such a highly telegraphed skill. In other words, it's not worth casting a skill like prime light beam while visible because even if it does hit, your only reward is a bit of CC. This encourages players to combo the ability with stealth. This way you remove the tradeoff and make the skill actually worth casting.

    If you only choose to cast the nerfed prime light beam when people can see it coming, I have to question whether you'd get more value out of taking Mortar Kit or Elixir S instead. The former is much more reliable and brings some nice utility to the table, and the latter brings more CC in both Rampage and Tornado that is far easier to land.

    Allow Prime Light Beam to hit hard, but remove the ability to hide the skill in stealth. This is a much healthier route than simply nerfing the damage into oblivion.

    yeah prime light beam is the most OP elite with thousands of boni and unblockable ... which should be neerfed to ground

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Arkantos.7460 said:
    yeah prime light beam is the most OP elite with thousands of boni and unblockable ... which should be neerfed to ground

    There's a right and a wrong way to nerf an OP skill.

    Pre Nerf PLB was potentially a hard hitting unblockable nuke with no tell (Stealth) with hard CC and condi damage attatched. A big nuke with zero counterplay.

    Instead of bringing the damage in line and adding counterplay (Adding self-reveal) Anet chose to gut the damage. The skill still exists as a zero counterplay AoE hard CC at 1200 range in stealth, which is still strong. Now that the cooldown has been reduced by 20 seconds, it's also spammable, but is that healthy?

    Or would it be more healthy to leave shave off some damage, and force the Holo to reveal themseves so that the big telegraph can be evaded?

  • @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

    It's still an Elite skill because it does other things other than just CC and it has a high base damage. I believe that it's ok to have high base damage just because it's an Elite. Other skills should not have a CC, high base damage, and high coef. -- that's just too much for a single non-Elite skill.

    There is no such thing as base damage in this game.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

    So many people thinking the changes are fine because only the scaling is being hit and not the base damage but there is no base damage, scaling is the only thing that matters and this skill will be hitting for double digits at most after this ridiculous change just like those rampage skills.

    If that is the case, then explain this to me;
    Back stab: Back damage: 880 (2.4)
    Headbutt: Damage: 798 (3.0)

    Why is BS with 2.4 coief. deals more damage than headbutt with 3.0?

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭

    My theory for why Headbutt hits harder than Backstab is due to the weapon strength portion of the equation. Dagger has a lower weapon strength than 2 handed weapons. Utility and Elite skills most likely use a 2 handed value in their damage calculations.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

    It's still an Elite skill because it does other things other than just CC and it has a high base damage. I believe that it's ok to have high base damage just because it's an Elite. Other skills should not have a CC, high base damage, and high coef. -- that's just too much for a single non-Elite skill.

    There is no such thing as base damage in this game.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

    So many people thinking the changes are fine because only the scaling is being hit and not the base damage but there is no base damage, scaling is the only thing that matters and this skill will be hitting for double digits at most after this ridiculous change just like those rampage skills.

    If that is the case, then explain this to me;
    Back stab: Back damage: 880 (2.4)
    Headbutt: Damage: 798 (3.0)

    Why is BS with 2.4 coief. deals more damage than headbutt with 3.0?

    Good question, and it actually shows a fault with my statement of "scaling is the only thing that matters" because there is one other factor to consider which is weapon strength.
    So the 880 and the 798 numbers refer to the "skill fact damage" which is "the tooltip damage displayed in the game for a level 80 character with an exotic level 80 weapon (if it is a weapon skill), but without any further equipment and without any other damage increasing effects. It is the default direct damage dealt by a level 80 character with base power 1000 against armor 2597, see Skill Facts for details."
    If we do a little algebra based off the two formulas:
    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)
    Damage done = (skill-fact damage) * (Power / 1000) * (2597 / target's Armor)
    Then
    Skill fact damage = (Weapon strength)*(skill-specific coefficient) 1000/2597
    This means that headbutt actually uses a weapon strength average of ~690.8 which is a fair bit lower normal weapon strengths with two handed weapons having an average weapon strength a bit over 1000, main handed weapons average 922.5 and off-hands average at 830 weapon strength units. Curiously Prime Light Beam also shares this low weapon strength which kind of clears up in my head why it never really seems to hit as hard as other 3.0 power coefficient skills like t3 eviscerate and kill shot.
    In the end, regardless of whether you look at the power coefficient or the skill fact damage, once the power scaling is tanked to near 0, the skill fact damage will also go to near 0 and there is no base damage to keep it still doing some amount of damage.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

    It's still an Elite skill because it does other things other than just CC and it has a high base damage. I believe that it's ok to have high base damage just because it's an Elite. Other skills should not have a CC, high base damage, and high coef. -- that's just too much for a single non-Elite skill.

    There is no such thing as base damage in this game.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

    So many people thinking the changes are fine because only the scaling is being hit and not the base damage but there is no base damage, scaling is the only thing that matters and this skill will be hitting for double digits at most after this ridiculous change just like those rampage skills.

    can you work out a realistic example of the math?

    im coming up with 8.46 damage with 2250 power against 2700 armor total

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    Nope.
    Gravity Well is a elite that has no damage now with out the duration of moa.

    Legit i don't know how they found even more ways to make chrono bad but they did.

    One is an AoE CC with a future 60 seconds, the other is a single target with 180 seconds. How do they compare again?

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

    It's still an Elite skill because it does other things other than just CC and it has a high base damage. I believe that it's ok to have high base damage just because it's an Elite. Other skills should not have a CC, high base damage, and high coef. -- that's just too much for a single non-Elite skill.

    There is no such thing as base damage in this game.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

    So many people thinking the changes are fine because only the scaling is being hit and not the base damage but there is no base damage, scaling is the only thing that matters and this skill will be hitting for double digits at most after this ridiculous change just like those rampage skills.

    can you work out a realistic example of the math?

    im coming up with 8.46 damage with 2250 power against 2700 armor total

    Back stab:
    922.5 Average weapon strength * 2250 power * 2.4 skill-specific coefficient / 2700 armor= 1845 damage non crit without any damage modifiers.
    Weapon strength is an rng component in this equation, see https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_Strength

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

    It's still an Elite skill because it does other things other than just CC and it has a high base damage. I believe that it's ok to have high base damage just because it's an Elite. Other skills should not have a CC, high base damage, and high coef. -- that's just too much for a single non-Elite skill.

    There is no such thing as base damage in this game.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

    So many people thinking the changes are fine because only the scaling is being hit and not the base damage but there is no base damage, scaling is the only thing that matters and this skill will be hitting for double digits at most after this ridiculous change just like those rampage skills.

    If that is the case, then explain this to me;
    Back stab: Back damage: 880 (2.4)
    Headbutt: Damage: 798 (3.0)

    Why is BS with 2.4 coief. deals more damage than headbutt with 3.0?

    Good question, and it actually shows a fault with my statement of "scaling is the only thing that matters" because there is one other factor to consider which is weapon strength.
    So the 880 and the 798 numbers refer to the "skill fact damage" which is "the tooltip damage displayed in the game for a level 80 character with an exotic level 80 weapon (if it is a weapon skill), but without any further equipment and without any other damage increasing effects. It is the default direct damage dealt by a level 80 character with base power 1000 against armor 2597, see Skill Facts for details."
    If we do a little algebra based off the two formulas:
    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)
    Damage done = (skill-fact damage) * (Power / 1000) * (2597 / target's Armor)
    Then
    Skill fact damage = (Weapon strength)*(skill-specific coefficient) 1000/2597
    This means that headbutt actually uses a weapon strength average of ~690.8 which is a fair bit lower normal weapon strengths with two handed weapons having an average weapon strength a bit over 1000, main handed weapons average 922.5 and off-hands average at 830 weapon strength units. Curiously Prime Light Beam also shares this low weapon strength which kind of clears up in my head why it never really seems to hit as hard as other 3.0 power coefficient skills like t3 eviscerate and kill shot.
    In the end, regardless of whether you look at the power coefficient or the skill fact damage, once the power scaling is tanked to near 0, the skill fact damage will also go to near 0 and there is no base damage to keep it still doing some amount of damage.

    Pretty much all utility skills use that weapon strength so they are independent of what weapon you are using.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

    It's still an Elite skill because it does other things other than just CC and it has a high base damage. I believe that it's ok to have high base damage just because it's an Elite. Other skills should not have a CC, high base damage, and high coef. -- that's just too much for a single non-Elite skill.

    There is no such thing as base damage in this game.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

    So many people thinking the changes are fine because only the scaling is being hit and not the base damage but there is no base damage, scaling is the only thing that matters and this skill will be hitting for double digits at most after this ridiculous change just like those rampage skills.

    can you work out a realistic example of the math?

    im coming up with 8.46 damage with 2250 power against 2700 armor total

    Back stab:
    922.5 Average weapon strength * 2250 power * 2.4 skill-specific coefficient / 2700 armor= 1845 damage non crit without any damage modifiers.
    Weapon strength is an rng component in this equation, see https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_Strength

    oops, i forgot to say i was using the mid point for the weapon strength that thay said they would make it always hit, and a .01 coefficient.

    looks like I was pretty close then

    (hammer midpoint (1,015.0 ))2250 power(backbreaker coef 0.01)/2700 armor = 8.45 damage

    big damage

    original would be

    (hammer midpoint (1,015.0 ))2250 power(backbreaker coef 1.5)/2700 armor = 1268.75 damage

    I would suggest that they make it about a .35 to .5 coefficient and lower the cooldowns a little bit (maybe 20%)

    at .5 coefficient that is about 423 base damage with hard cc, crits without any other modifiers based on 187% will get about 790 damage

    these are based on a demolisher war gear

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think though this is a first release, and they can get a little time to observe real live numbers made by players is regular scenarios versus purposely having a test server where everyone "tries" to find the bugs.

    Players is this game have an uncanny way of finding broken mechanics and abusing them.

    So, I think we should just wait.

    Cal said he was looking to do six week balance pass intervals.

    SO we get this patch, get some time in game seeing how the changes affect how we play, and then they can adjust in 1.5 months.

    Maybe some stuff can get hot fixed if they are just too kitten poor, or if they are overperforming.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I think though this is a first release, and they can get a little time to observe real live numbers made by players is regular scenarios versus purposely having a test server where everyone "tries" to find the bugs.

    Players is this game have an uncanny way of finding broken mechanics and abusing them.

    So, I think we should just wait.

    Cal said he was looking to do six week balance pass intervals.

    SO we get this patch, get some time in game seeing how the changes affect how we play, and then they can adjust in 1.5 months.

    Maybe some stuff can get hot fixed if they are just too kitten poor, or if they are overperforming.

    Well said good sir.
    Although ur crabbyness does not live up to ur name. Kinda misleading.

  • Teb.6980Teb.6980 Member ✭✭

    Not for all skills...

    Specifically, I felt bad for necro reaper 5 and holo Prime Light Beam

    Regards

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    For every skill? Nah. It actually creates some major imbalance between CC skills. Take Prime Light Beam. Huge windup, huge tell, long cooldown and its CC is a launch that lasts about a second. It now does the same damage as Mesmers Magic bullet, which has no tell, far shorter windup, half the cooldown and stuns for 2 seconds. In fact, thats not even true, because Magic bullet primarily did condi damage, and that was completely untouched. So now PLB is just a pathetic skill compared to Magic bloody Bullet. And you get these kinds of imbalances everywhere. I dont see Engineers ever using PLB over Supply Crate now for example, as that one CCs harder, more easily hits multiple people and while it does no damage, neither does PLB.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    I think that some CC skills should indeed do damage, but deflecting shot is not one of them. The ones that should do damage are the really slow high impact ones, like reaper's Executioner's Scythe or engineer's Big Ol Bomb

  • It does not make sense. Having Banish and Point Blank Shot doing the same thing is just insanity to me.
    The prior having double the cast time, longer cooldown and requiring melee. (Also attached to a dead weapon)

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Haven't read all comments, but I absolutely agree with 'no damage CCs' idea.
    Maybe you just get used to 'free' damage which is bounded with hefty CC :)

  • Just wait until the patch. With this many changes it's impossible to predict the exact outcome.

    I'll give them credit on being consistent, which is what I worried they would NOT be when rampage was changed last patch.

    Post patch will be the time to possibly re-add some damage back. However IMO it must be done quick because a HOT launch bunker meta is infinitely worse than any DPS meta