Nerf Thief — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Nerf Thief

mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 12, 2020 in PVP

While a lot of meta builds such as Glint Shiro, Fire Weaver, Spellbreaker, and Condition Mirage are scheduled to receive extremely heavy direct nerfs in addition to the general across the board damage nerfs listed in the preview, thief and Daredevil are currently my vote for the strongest builds in ranked and in ATs the problematic aspects of thief+daredevil are not being touched at the moment.

Please nerf:

Infiltrator's Strike.
Escapists Fortitude.
Smoke Screen.
Leeching Venoms.

In that order of priority.

Infiltrator's Strike

Infiltrator's Strike and Infiltrator's return has been a sore spot for players for literally years now. Even thief mains such as Vallun have suggested nerfing Infiltrator's Strike and return by 300 range. I don't think I'm out of line by suggesting this skill chain needs some adjustment both in this current environment and in the new landscape presented by the balance patch preview where mobility for builds has been nerfed across the board.

Right now Infiltrator's Strike and Infiltrator's Return combined cost 5 initiative for the equivalent of 2100 units of travel, swiftness, immobilize, and a condition cleanse. 5 Initiative is effectively a 5 second cooldown. At its face that much movement for that much initiative should show how out of tune the skill chain is. While I expect thief to have a very hit and run play style the way Sword 2 on thief is set up gives them basically unlimited capacity to hit and run.

And with Infiltrator's Return at only 2 initiative, even absolutely terrible thieves with no understanding of initiative management are going to be able to abuse the skill to always escape combat. Just statistically speaking the odds that even recklessly spamming will put you at below 1 initiative is very unlikely. So at most a thief player in danger only needs to wait one second to have the initiative to retreat potentially 1200 units of distance.

If I was in charge of balance I'd lower the cost of the Infiltrator's Strike down to 2 initiative and increase the cost of Infiltrator's Return to 4 initiative and the cast time on Infiltrator's Return to 0.5 seconds up from 0.25 seconds. This gives a slight decrease in value on the skill in general but not catastrophically so. As I said all that value for only 5 initiative on the skill chain is simply too much. And most importantly it makes it more difficult for thieves to dump all their initiative recklessly and have an escape route with Infiltrator's Return. And if they do use Infiltrator's Return, with a 4 initiative cost their capacity to immediately go on the offensive again is significantly reduced. And with average latency you would need to be a reaction time god to even hope to interrupt a 0.25s cast. At 0.5 second cast time on Infiltrator's return it still makes thieves very likely to escape combat, but not have functionally unstoppable capacity to escape combat.

Escapist's Fortitude

Escapist's Fortitude is being nerfed in terms of the healing. But right now the trait is absolutely busted in terms of condition cleansing. At a 1 second ICD, and the fact that sword thieves both SD and SP are reaching literally 30 seconds of evade across the first minute of combat, this effectively is a condition cleanse every 2 seconds when taking into account the cleanse, the ICD, and their capacity to evade. That is ridiculously out of tune with other trait based condition cleanses. Compare:

Engineer Transmute: Convert 3 conditions ever 48 seconds = a condition cleanse every 16 seconds
Warrior Brawler's Recovery: 1 condition cleanse every weapon swap on discipline = 1 condition cleanse every 5 seconds.
Mesmer Sympathetic Visage: 1 condition transferred to Phantasm on summon, the shortest cooldown of which is 12 seconds traited = 1 cleanse every 12 seconds.
Mesmer Auspicious Anguish: 2 condition cleanses when casting Distortion = 1 cleanse every 25 seconds.
Revenant Cleansing Channel: 1 Condition Cleanse on Legend Swap = 1 condition Cleanse every 10 seconds.
Smothering Aura: 1 cleanse on aura 2 cleanse on aura detonation, with focus Fire Aura that's 3 cleanses every 20 seconds = Cleanse every 6.666 (repeating of course) seconds.
Cleansing Sigil: Cleanse on weapon swap or every 9 seconds based on elemental attuning or engineer kit swap.

Even when you take into account that daredevils aren't evading every second, they still have a realistic capacity to evade every 2 seconds across a minute of combat which is still out of this world in terms of condition cleansing. Regardless of the healing nerfs, Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll. This will put it more in line with other trait based condition cleanses as well and the healing on the trait wouldn't be out of line or require a nerf either.

Smoke Screen

Again this is another trait being nerfed in the wrong way, or at least not to the degree it needs to be. Right now Smoke Screen effectively functions as an invulnerability field against a variety of builds. Currently at 7s duration on a 25 second cooldown it's at 28% uptime for a blinding field that also destroys projectiles. It's currently scheduled to go up to a 35 second cooldown which puts it down to 20% up time. This is a solid enough change but it isn't enough considering it is a blind field that is literally as big as most conquest nodes @ 240 units giving it massive advantage against both ranged and melee attacks. Compare:

Feedback 240 radius 6 second reflect on a 32 second cooldown = 18% uptime on JUST countering ranged attacks and not melee attacks.
Wall of Reflection 10 second duration 30 second cooldown = 33.33% (repeating of course) uptime on JUST countering ranged attacks and not melee attacks.

Either: Nerf the radius so it doesn't encompass an entire conquest node similar to both Black Powder and the way the skill functioned before or
Increase the cooldown further due to how this utility counters both ranged and melee attacks potentially up to 40-45 seconds.

Leeching Venoms

It both gives thief stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed and provides life steal when they strike an enemy with a venom. This trait has enabled seriously degenerate builds, namely permanent stealth one shot DP thief. It has this problem where it both gives a benefit for using certain utilities and clearly wants to encourage a certain playstyle (Venom Thief), but it also freely gives said combo so that any build can reap the full power of said trait. It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.

Remove the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed, forcing thieves who want to benefit from this trait to have to take at least one venom utility skill.

Edit:

The balance patch notes have been updated.

Additional changes

  • Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
  • Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
  • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
  • Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
  • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
  • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds

Best Dressed Memser NA.

<1345

Comments

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

    For example:

    • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
    • Venoms steal life as before

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

    For example:

    • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
    • Venoms steal life as before

    The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

    For example:

    • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
    • Venoms steal life as before

    The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.

    But with BS nerfed to 1.8 will this still be too much?

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    Blinding powder for what I'd soes should have got a harder CD nerf
    Venom is a non issue
    Infiltrator return should have its ini cost raised by 1 and only accessible apon successfully hit that way a block used appropriately can punish the thief by forcing it into using another disengage skill or stay in melee range. Escapist fortitude after patch will be fine.
    Every tele in game should require los.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

    For example:

    • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
    • Venoms steal life as before

    The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.

    But with BS nerfed to 1.8 will this still be too much?

    yes, it'll still be good.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

    For example:

    • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
    • Venoms steal life as before

    The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.

    But with BS nerfed to 1.8 will this still be too much?

    yes, it'll still be good.

    Good sure. But surely what Morty is suggesting isn’t about thief being “good” but being overpowered.

    How is an extra 2k life siphon (assuming everything connects) a bad thing on a glassy build that hits much less hard post patch?

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

    the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.
    and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.
    In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

    I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

    Edit: I don’t believe having the ability to stand toe to toe with melee builds for a limited time (now 20% uptime post patch) is overpowered. If we reduce thief ability to gank with nerfed coefficients then we need some defensive fields to stay relevant given the rest of the kit.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

    the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.
    and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.
    In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

    I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

    Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

    the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.
    and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.
    In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

    I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

    Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

    I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. To clarify what I’m talking about (correct me if I’m mistaken):

    Player 1 is in stealth and puts up a reflect.
    Player 2 uses a blockable projectile attack on that reflect and is hit with their own attack.
    Player 1 isn’t revealed.

    Edit:

    Either way, I don’t think it matters much to the argument. I agree the field should be a bit smaller and would adjust the cooldown to a more normal 30 seconds than the current planned 35.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

    the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.
    and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.
    In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

    I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

    Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

    I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. To clarify what I’m talking about (correct me if I’m mistaken):

    Player 1 is in stealth and puts up a reflect.
    Player 2 uses a blockable projectile attack on that reflect and is hit with their own attack.
    Player 1 isn’t revealed.

    you 100% gets revealed I can say from experience.

    Interesting. Although, since we generally agree on the need for it to be slightly smaller of a field, I don’t think the distinction changes much.

    If Smoke Field reflected I’d use it in combat for the reflect and avoid stealth during the duration. It would probably be more useful as a reflect against certain builds.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

    the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.
    and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.
    In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

    I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

    Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

    I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. To clarify what I’m talking about (correct me if I’m mistaken):

    Player 1 is in stealth and puts up a reflect.
    Player 2 uses a blockable projectile attack on that reflect and is hit with their own attack.
    Player 1 isn’t revealed.

    Edit:

    Either way, I don’t think it matters much to the argument. I agree the field should be a bit smaller and would adjust the cooldown to a more normal 30 seconds than the current planned 35.

    Always revealed.

    Player 1 is always revealed. If you reflect, it counts as your own attack and thus if you reflect an attack while stealthed, strike an opponent you will reveal yourself.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

    Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

    Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

    Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    Welp, you didnt know that reflect reveals you? No wonder :D

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
    Check the wiki how very few skills apply resistance may be?

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

    Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

    Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

    It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

    Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

    Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

    It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.

    If you remove the automatic stealthed spider venom it certainly hurts both but real venoms thieves will at least gain benefit from the trait when they use venom skills which is what we want while the DP Power burst ones won't which is also what we want.

    If anything nerfing the life siphon but keeping the free Spider Venom while stealthed unfairly hurts venom thieves while still wrongfully empowering parts of thieves this shouldn't be empowering.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

    Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

    Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

    You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

    Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

    Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

    You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

    Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

    Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

    Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

    It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.

    If you remove the automatic stealthed spider venom it certainly hurts both but real venoms thieves will at least gain benefit from the trait when they use venom skills which is what we want while the DP Power burst ones won't which is also what we want.

    If anything nerfing the life siphon but keeping the free Spider Venom while stealthed unfairly hurts venom thieves while still wrongfully empowering parts of thieves this shouldn't be empowering.

    My issue with this is saying that a trait shouldn’t benefit both power and condi. Does it provide too much life siphon? Should the siphon scale based on condi damage? Is this mechanic problematic?

    And I’ll return to the question: if the auto attack and backstab coefficients are nerfed as indicated, is a bonus 2k damage (assuming all hits go through, given that venoms expire on misses) really all that OP?

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

    Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

    Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

    You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

    Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

    If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

    Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

    Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

    It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.

    If you remove the automatic stealthed spider venom it certainly hurts both but real venoms thieves will at least gain benefit from the trait when they use venom skills which is what we want while the DP Power burst ones won't which is also what we want.

    If anything nerfing the life siphon but keeping the free Spider Venom while stealthed unfairly hurts venom thieves while still wrongfully empowering parts of thieves this shouldn't be empowering.

    My issue with this is saying that a trait shouldn’t benefit both power and condi. Does it provide too much life siphon? Should the siphon scale based on condi damage? Is this mechanic problematic?

    Based on the preview for the balance patch both deadshot and wanderer amulets are being removed so there will be no amulet that gives both condition damage without providing power damage anyway. The damage should probably scale of condition damage surely, but with the amulet changes I think this is kind of a moot point practically speaking.

    But we definitely shouldn't want a trait in a purely defensive line to be significantly boosting a power damage build's burst. This is like adding a 20% damage boosting trait to warrior's defense treat. It's just inappropriate and it's already causing problems. If you're venoms and you're shadow arts you should gain benefit from the designed synergy. If you aren't venoms and running Shadow Arts the synergy should be lost on you just like how all other utility boosting traits operate.

    And I’ll return to the question: if the auto attack and backstab coefficients are nerfed as indicated, is a bonus 2k damage (assuming all hits go through, given that venoms expire on misses) really all that OP?

    I'd have to play the patched version to have a 100% certain answer. But I will say the coefficient nerf on backstab is less than the average 33% nerf towards all power skills so it will remain a very powerful power damage skill while many other skills will not, regardless of whether it is being boosted by the life siphon trait.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

    Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

    Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

    You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

    Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

    If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?

    Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

    Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

    Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

    You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

    Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

    If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?

    Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

    So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining? You don’t have to wait out the field, I wouldn’t wait. But I have a couple of abilities that can play around the field and if I need to I can just use a defensive or two.

    I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is op. Most just use a defensive skill or use attacks that hit between the blinds until the field runs out. They do less damage but the thief is usually in a bad spot if forced to play defensively during the Smoke Screen (less HP, initiative and endurance afterwards to keep up the fight).

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

    Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

    Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

    You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

    Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

    If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?

    Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

    So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining?

    Stop defending this ridiculous dumb skill?

    I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is op

    Then this thread wouldnt be there.
    Im not interested in your biased mumbling.
    A note for these who wish to defend such stuff, like these war mains with rampage. Any OP/ridiculously strong skill have a counterplay in one or another form but it doesnt make it less stupid and they are getting look at sooner or later.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

    Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

    Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

    You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

    Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

    If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?

    Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

    So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining? You don’t have to wait out the field, I wouldn’t wait. But I have a couple of abilities that can play around the field and if I need to I can just use a defensive or two.

    I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is op.

    Smoke screen was only changed from a line to a ring field back in July. At which point it went from a line that could bisect a conquest node to a field that could encompass an entire node. Condition daredevil was better/easier than core DP especially since the changes that super charged DP didn't happen since November.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    This is actually a very detailed analysis, but I don’t think thief needs all those changes to be balanced. I mean it’s like your saying the only things good about thief rn are these things which they aren’t. Thief is good rn because it’s a rotation heavy meta and I don’t think these traits are as good as u think- like smokescreen is definitely not an invulnerability field, it’s very good because it provides decent defense and allows for stealth like shadow refuge did, but more on the defense side. All we really need it the smokescreen to have reduced defense capability, for the invis on heal to get stealth nerf and possibly a slight nerf to sword 2(like Vallun suggested) also plz rework assassin signet to do something besides just power increase- maybe just give unblockable instead. Also for fun request, plz make mug be able to crit but obviously would need to lower power coefficient

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    Infiltrator's Strike
    I agree this needs to be looked into mostly the return part of it i always said making it so that if the initiating strike was dodged then either the return skill gets a cd or cost more or does not happen at all. But those are just my ideas either way this is probably the main skill that causes the most frustration for people.

    Escapist's Fortitude
    I do not agree simply because

    • its unique to daredevil only its not something every thief build can take
    • daredevil has naturally been pushed to have stronger prowess in melee ranger than base thief and deadeye
    • thief in general has pretty low condi cleanse and the trait fits perfectly on a profession built around evading attacks

    To be blunt daredevils wouldnt run this if mesmers/mirage condition application pressure was not "Constantly incoming" if it played like a proper burst class and had much weaker down times between its higher bursting applications then thieves would probably opt more for. Brawler's Tenacity or only using core cleanses. like the signet and withdraw etc.

    Lets also consider Mirage's new Elusive Mind going forward which will clear 2 conditions for pressing evade regardless if you actually dodged an attack as where escapist at least requires you to dodge something for a single condition.

    Smoke Screen
    The nerfs in play here are already fine.
    There are several ways to attack a thief through this unfortunately mesmer only has a couple. Like scepter 3 and GS auto. Heck even GS5 can push them clean out of it assuming you are not standing inside of it.
    Generally using either unblockable projectiles or melee attack that hits rapidly will allow you to easily hit the thief inside and force them out. By no means is this a invulnerability. This skills aoe range gives thief more pressure in team fights allowing them to actually brawl a bit vs only being a +1.

    Skills like: Reapers shroud 4, Rangers off hand axe 5, Warriors gs 2 and 3, etc
    All of which will cleave a thief inside while even standing inside due to the rapid hits
    Ideally the way the skill is being nerfed it will be fine. While it does cover an entire node it also deals no damage which is not the same node issue like we saw with scourge shades so i cant agree with nerfing it anymore till after patch changes. IF its the only skill a thief has outside of dagger storm thats good for team support and team fighting let them keep that.

    Leeching Venoms
    Ok this one is kind of up in the air for me i think that auto stacking in stealth is fine but i feel like producing a cap on he max number of passive stacks is more appropriate. Simply cut the number of passive stacks from 6 to 3.
    1 stack on entry and up to 2 more over time at most even then im not sure they even need to do this cause this trait is not main the problem with 1 shot backstab thief.

    Sadly i don't agree with your example of ("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")
    Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

    Ideally im not sure if this is even a problem this one honestly it really sounded like you nit picked something randomly out of the shadow-arts line to me. Thats just how it feels based on how its written. One shot D/P thief existed before this trait worked this way so i cant even give you the statement of ("This trait has enabled seriously degenerate builds, namely permanent stealth one shot DP thief.") because that was already a thing.

    Closing opinion

    So long as 1 shot anything from stealth regardless of the profession is removed from the game everything else thief for the most part has is going to be fine. Stealth in general needs adjustments for all professions not just thief so i wont simply point the finger at them for that the mechanic. In general is just a bit unfair because it lacks the standard built in detections that other games have no matter who uses it... thief, mesmer, ranger. etc

    The only real skill that i think your post has any weight to focus on is Infiltrator's Strike as it is a problematic blink in and out which goes through obstructions with almost no limitations and has no punishing aspect for how fast the game plays now. In truth the skill use to be worse than this when the return was instant but now its clear that it needs to be looked at again. Still lets wait to see how damage overall looks after the nerfs.

    Because you and several other people here are also mesmer mains or play that profession of choice quite a lot (nothing wrong with that by the way) i think its worth mentioning that if other players of other professions dont feel the same way about all of the key points you put out then its probably just your counter. Im not sure it needs to be said but mesmers have been longing for thief nerfs really hard for a long time and even more so now as of late because its one of the few professions that easily deals with them if the thief knows how to play. In almost every other match up mesmer holds the dueling advantage especially on a side node. If one profession can best them with the advantage but not have the advantage in the other 6-7 cases then that seems totally fine to me.

    Even as a necro main who is also countered hard by thief i feel like some of your key points you want nerfed her are totally unnecessary.
    I have also played thief and daredevil and know how hard that profession has it when it comes to a wide range of matchups and how easy it is to have some one counter half your whole mechanic with a single button press. Literally other than Infiltrator's Strike your nerf points are a bit out of line.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of ("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")
    Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

    It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of ("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")
    Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

    It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

    Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???

    A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.
    The warrior example use to be possible
    The ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often

    I feel like traits like this are super unique and give a bit of identity to the profession not to mention using the active venoms alone leaves a thief with 1 less critical utility for a condi burst that will be clensed and have a massive down time. We also need to consider the cost and time it takes to get to max stacks at minimum 15 seconds for a full 6 stack assuming you get 1 stack immediately on entry. +what ever tools you used to gain stealth access.

    To be honest with you this still feels like nit picking something thats not at all the main problem with the reason as to why you called it out.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of ("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")
    Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

    It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

    Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???

    Several thousand damage alongside a skill that's slated for general damage reduction alongside everything else. And if we're being real backstab requires skill and deserves high (though certainly not one shot) levels of damage. Life steal due to venom stacks automatically procing from stealth does not require skill.

    A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.
    The warrior example use to be possible
    The ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often

    "Every so often" AKA Taking falling damage to proc the fall damage trait or casting a 20 second+ cooldown healing skill and procing lesser muddy terrain, and not literally every single time you enter stealth which you can do freely, permanently with no cooldown like you currently can with the Shadow Arts life siphon trait on DP.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of ("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")
    Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

    It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

    Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???

    Several thousand damage alongside a skill that's slated for general damage reduction alongside everything else. And if we're being real backstab requires skill and deserves high (though certainly not one shot) levels of damage. Life steal due to venom stacks automatically procing from stealth does not require skill.

    Once again consider the time it takes to gain those stacks is it really that strong based on that. 15 seconds for few hundred at best maybe a few thousand points of potential healing or thousand damage assuming max stacks which at base requires 15 seconds of stealth time + resources to enter / maintain that stealth? You also just said it was not about the healing portion in your recent statement so i dont understand to call out the skill requirement around the life steal portion.

    IF you are going to make skill arguments though then you are opening up a massive can of worms so i would like to avoid that if possible i dont think thats a fair argument to settle on as it will only lead to people poking at things you might use in your builds as to how they are not skillful, it generally not a healthy argument to start. So lets not go calling what is or is not skilled because it starts headache inducing arguments about who has the most petty skill/trait functionality on assumptions on what you think contributes the most to your losses against a certain build or profession.

    A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.
    The warrior example use to be possible
    The ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often

    "Every so often" AKA Taking falling damage to proc the fall damage trait or casting a 20 second+ cooldown healing skill and procing lesser muddy terrain, and not literally every single time you enter stealth which you can do freely, permanently with no cooldown like you currently can with the Shadow Arts life siphon trait on DP.

    As i said the problem is not with leeching venoms its with stealth which is universally busted and needs reworking. It lacks the natural level of counter play that can be found in other games but if it was similar to other games you should expect to see skills like smokescreen etc things that specifically allow a thief to fight outside of stealth without being instantly melted become more effective.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Please nerf:
    Infiltrator's Strike

    Strike 2 init, return 4 ini, cast time 0.5 seconds

    'Kay.

    Escapist's Fortitude
    Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll.

    You can stow but lol ok, give the healing back though.

    Smoke Screen
    This is a solid enough change but it isn't enough considering it is a blind field that is literally as big as most conquest nodes @ 240 units giving it massive advantage against both ranged and melee attacks.

    No. You aren't punished for standing in the field apart from pulsing blind, unblockable goes through it, and resistance mitigates it.There's nothing stopping you from contesting the point with a smoke screen on it, so there's no need to do either of those.

    Leeching Venoms
    Remove the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed, forcing thieves who want to benefit from this trait to have to take at least one venom utility skill.

    'Kay.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Buff teef 🧟‍♂️

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Please nerf:
    Infiltrator's Strike

    Strike 2 init, return 4 ini, cast time 0.5 seconds

    'Kay.

    Escapist's Fortitude
    Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll.

    You can stow but lol ok, give the healing back though.

    Smoke Screen
    This is a solid enough change but it isn't enough considering it is a blind field that is literally as big as most conquest nodes @ 240 units giving it massive advantage against both ranged and melee attacks.

    No. You aren't punished for standing in the field apart from pulsing blind, unblockable goes through it, and resistance mitigates it.There's nothing stopping you from contesting the point with a smoke screen on it, so there's no need to do either of those.

    Leeching Venoms
    Remove the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed, forcing thieves who want to benefit from this trait to have to take at least one venom utility skill.

    'Kay.

    That's better than we usually do.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Please can we get smoke screen on mesmer as well instead of feedback pleasepleasepleaseplease.

    // Yanim

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Please can we get smoke screen on mesmer as well instead of feedback pleasepleasepleaseplease.

    play necro you get well of darkness... :+1: problem solved

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    Infiltrators strike needs a nerf for sure but I don’t think they should touch the other stuff until we see how some of these changes play out.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Please nerf:
    Infiltrator's Strike

    Strike 2 init, return 4 ini, cast time 0.5 seconds

    'Kay.

    Escapist's Fortitude
    Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll.

    You can stow but lol ok, give the healing back though.

    Also nah, it's a catch 22 if you haven't already put enough condition damage to kill the daredevil you literally need to keep attacking them if you want to win the fight at which point you're faced with either retroactively nullifying your own damage or doing so little damage to be unable to keep up with their healing. Regardless of whether you've applied enough damage to kill the daredevil, the daredevil is free to attack you and if you try to retaliate you risk completely nullifying the entirety of your own damage output. If a teammate you have no control of tries to attack the daredevil they can completely nullify your damage even if you are smart enough to stow weapons. This isn't even hard tied to a deliberate activation of a dodge roll like Elusive Mind or to an actual mechanic / resource like warrior's cleanse on weapon swap. Literally all of their endurance, all of their initiative, their healing skill, and their elite skill is effectively a cleanse.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Please can we get smoke screen on mesmer as well instead of feedback pleasepleasepleaseplease.

    If you give thieves distortion/mirror.

    The current meta demands escape and high levels of condi cleanse to live.
    The new (proposed) meta is apparently not that which is why:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Regardless of whether you've applied enough damage to kill the daredevil, the daredevil is free to attack you and if you try to retaliate you risk completely nullifying the entirety of your own damage output.

    I consider this outlook fairer now than I would have pre-patch notes.
    As I keep saying, I'm up to playing fair, as long as it isn't stacked. The meta has changed.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    • thief in general has pretty low condi cleanse and the trait fits perfectly on a profession built around evading attacks

    To be blunt daredevils wouldnt run this if mesmers/mirage condition application pressure was not "Constantly incoming"

    ^ That right there. I'd still run it but the only reason I -mandatory- run it is because of mirage condi builds.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    When you have been engaged, you should be making your way closer and closer back to their initial cast point, now the "escape" is gone.

    You can't compare things to thief and go "but they have this" without considering every other aspect of the class being compared.

    Oh, did you know you can pile it on and just stow your weapon?

    If they take away the auto stacking (at a cost, cause the kitten ain't free), then they can give back the recharge or increase the potency or charges for venoms.

    Other classes have better sustain and stab access, might built into sustain lines, and power lines that add sustain.

    Also of note. My opinion hasn't changed but he has a point.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this is typical " dont touch my cheese " moment
    keep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "

    That's a fair rebuttal. I don't know why you're marketing it as not. He's right that you should be looking at condition cleanse across the entire class.
    It's largely mesmers that have a hangup with fortitude and that's because their condition application is so frequent that they cannot stop it. That's really not our fault, and in your efforts to balance that for yourselves you weaken daredevil vs other condi builds. I'm pretty sure this problem would evaporate if the bulk of mirage condi application was given to the main mesmer but that's an argument for another day.

    I can understand that. That's why if you want to lessen the condi cleanse you need to increase the healing. I'd prefer that be on successful evade instead of tied to true dodge, also.

    Otherwise I guarantee you nobody is going to run that trait. Most DDs will lean into marauders resilience and stealth, or brawlers tenacity.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    on some notes mesmer's auspicious anguish converts is 2 per clone distorted, max 5 (all dmg condis)
    talking about broken stuff and thief - this actually makes your block backstab if you were getting +'d while fighting anything that applies burn if they try to spike (burn to aegis on steal)

    and smothering aura doesn't have icd, it triggers as much as you can
    -> fire -> fire -> transmute = 4 cleanse every 8 secs

    sympathetic visage, not really relevant right now but this probably cleansed 1 condi per sec when chrono was meta

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

    Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
    Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
    "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
    His analysis is very accurate

    Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

    I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?

    And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

    That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).

    They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln.

    More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

    Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

    Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

    You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

    Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

    If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?

    Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

    So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining?

    Stop defending this ridiculous dumb skill?

    I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is op

    Then this thread wouldnt be there.
    Im not interested in your biased mumbling.
    A note for these who wish to defend such stuff, like these war mains with rampage. Any OP/ridiculously strong skill have a counterplay in one or another form but it doesnt make it less stupid and they are getting look at sooner or later.

    One thread. Congrats. That’s not an argument and descending into ad hominem attacks won’t help you.

    As others have pointed out this doesn’t do damage and any number of abilities allow you to bypass the projectile blocking. Even if you stand in the field all you get is some blind and that won’t last for long.

    @mortrialus.3062

    Yes, I remember when it was changed to a ring. I remember, because I specifically asked Anet to make that change. Because before it was a ring it wasn’t useful and no one used it.

    When it came out I was surprised they made the ring as big as they did. But either way it’s not like I disagree with you on adjusting it, only Odik’s strange hatred of thief being able to stand their ground (barely) every so often.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this is typical " dont touch my cheese " moment
    keep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "

    That's a fair rebuttal. I don't know why you're marketing it as not. He's right that you should be looking at condition cleanse across the entire class.
    It's largely mesmers that have a hangup with fortitude and that's because their condition application is so frequent that they cannot stop it. That's really not our fault, and in your efforts to balance that for yourselves you weaken daredevil vs other condi builds. I'm pretty sure this problem would evaporate if the bulk of mirage condi application was given to the main mesmer but that's an argument for another day.

    I can understand that. That's why if you want to lessen the condi cleanse you need to increase the healing. I'd prefer that be on successful evade instead of tied to true dodge, also.

    Otherwise I guarantee you nobody is going to run that trait. Most DDs will lean into marauders resilience and stealth, or brawlers tenacity.

    do you srsl think its just mesmers?
    do you think anyone will play burn guard when thief cleanses all their burn stacks every 1s for example lol.
    nobody plays any condi for a reason, and overtuned cleansing is part of it THIS is part of overtuned cleansing.