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Nerf Thief

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  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this is typical " dont touch my cheese " moment
    keep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "

    That's a fair rebuttal. I don't know why you're marketing it as not. He's right that you should be looking at condition cleanse across the entire class.
    It's largely mesmers that have a hangup with fortitude and that's because their condition application is so frequent that they cannot stop it. That's really not our fault, and in your efforts to balance that for yourselves you weaken daredevil vs other condi builds. I'm pretty sure this problem would evaporate if the bulk of mirage condi application was given to the main mesmer but that's an argument for another day.

    I can understand that. That's why if you want to lessen the condi cleanse you need to increase the healing. I'd prefer that be on successful evade instead of tied to true dodge, also.

    Otherwise I guarantee you nobody is going to run that trait. Most DDs will lean into marauders resilience and stealth, or brawlers tenacity.

    do you srsl think its just mesmers?
    do you think anyone will play burn guard when thief cleanses all their burn stacks every 1s for example lol.
    nobody plays any condi for a reason, and overtuned cleansing is part of it THIS is part of overtuned cleansing.

    How often do you get burned up by burn guard on your main?

    A 1 condition build is supposed to be viable?

    Maybe when they can drop a 5-8k burn on you and stow a cleanse on evading an attack doesnt help.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    this is typical " dont touch my cheese " moment
    keep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "

    That's a fair rebuttal. I don't know why you're marketing it as not. He's right that you should be looking at condition cleanse across the entire class.
    It's largely mesmers that have a hangup with fortitude and that's because their condition application is so frequent that they cannot stop it. That's really not our fault, and in your efforts to balance that for yourselves you weaken daredevil vs other condi builds. I'm pretty sure this problem would evaporate if the bulk of mirage condi application was given to the main mesmer but that's an argument for another day.

    I can understand that. That's why if you want to lessen the condi cleanse you need to increase the healing. I'd prefer that be on successful evade instead of tied to true dodge, also.

    Otherwise I guarantee you nobody is going to run that trait. Most DDs will lean into marauders resilience and stealth, or brawlers tenacity.

    do you srsl think its just mesmers?
    do you think anyone will play burn guard when thief cleanses all their burn stacks every 1s for example lol.
    nobody plays any condi for a reason, and overtuned cleansing is part of it THIS is part of overtuned cleansing.

    How often do you get burned up by burn guard on your main?

    A 1 condition build is supposed to be viable?

    Maybe when they can drop a 5-8k burn on you and stow a cleanse on evading an attack doesnt help.

    oh no, i got attack by different enemy or got hit by a tick of random pulsing damage, would be shame If I removed 10k burning damage with my 1s cd trait.
    nooooo

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    do you srsl think its just mesmers?

    I said -largely mesmers.- As for why I think that, look at the consistent proponents for nerfing fortitude.

    do you think anyone will play burn guard when thief cleanses all their burn stacks every 1s for example lol.

    -people can and do play burnguard, but firebrand is easier so that is more visible.-

    nobody plays any condi for a reason-

    ???

    None of this is true. You main one of the classes that runs condi in the current meta. weavers also run condi in the current meta, and soulbeast has a sleeper condi build. You're reaching.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    THIS is part of overtuned cleansing.
    @Leonidrex.5649 ALSO said:
    oh no, i got attack by different enemy or got hit by a tick of random pulsing damage, would be shame If I removed 10k burning damage with my 1s cd trait.
    nooooo

    10k is more than 85% of our base hp pool.
    Try again. You're only making me think I need it more now. Mocking being able to pull a condi off me that will kill me if it ticks twice by evading and then trying to label that as being overtuned isn't the best argument to make if you want to nerf it.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • CroTiger.7819CroTiger.7819 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    Just compare thief and ranger shortbow. Thief shortbow have imob on stealth atack bouncing aa, 2 which can work on power and condi, 3 can be spammed evade, 4 even gets unblockable cc like it wasn t enough utility (increase in count was not nerf since its cc at landing now) and finally 5 for epic mobility. Thief shortbow works with condi and power and is must pick except you are de. Now ranger which should be able to have atleast condi variant with shortbow viable doesn t get it. Very poor condi dmg, no power dmg almost, skill 5 is bad version of thief 4 on sb now after patch (yes it stuns so what when thief can interupt 4 times during we can interupt again). Instead giving ranger shortbow unblockable interupt with less duration but more active usage (used for interupt purpose not for stunclock) which i wait since start you give it to best utility weapon in this game thief shortbow. Its clear anet likes thief and have no idea of what to do with ranger shortbow which could bring balance in game if it was made as active interupt weapon. But yes ranger need swoop nerf for almost double the cd but yea thiefs mobility is fine and in line and smokescreen is also good because its okay that thief which hardest counter was ranged dmg is now not a threat aswell. Give thiefs more utility and maybe more stealth they rly lack utility and nerf shortbow for ranger its outperforming (tell me what is ranger with sb able to do vs smokescreen while its active beside swaping weapons). Thief will be able to interupt ranger block on gs 4 now instant making it stupid to use vs thief even though it needed nerf in cd and is fine now. What is not fine is unblockable aoe cc (can be casted pretty often even with initiative cost raised) while ranger shortbow is still forgotten. Now tell me thief need unblockable cc on top of already op weapon more than ranger needs it on dead weapon which doesn t even work on condi builds. Thiefs have all tool to stay in meta forever and anet is even giving them new tools and when they are broken it takes half of the year to fix it and than give them new op skills like smokescreen to make them broken again (dp is cool build and very skillfull but right now there is not much counterplay it used to have back in days when it was balanced). So mobility (strongest tool in only pvp mode called conquest) and stealth (best defence mechanics in game used for offence aswell which is possible to keep perma effect) stays same for thief while ranger loose pet and gain swoop almost 2x longer cd nice balance i see who profits.
    Its just first balance but buff on thief sb 4 just doesn t make any sense. Maybe we see ranger sb being played in 2025 and thief geting nerfs in 2030 if it goes on like this because there is no real counter for thief mechanics in conquest and each balance split it even furher and make it untouchable in terms of utility.

  • I think thiefs should be able to get seat with audience passive trait in eternal colliseum proced when they take fatal dmg. No joke that is excatly how 80% of other builds feels when watching thiefs in terms of mobility which is strongest tool for conquest mode.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

    you not knowing doesnt mean that others dont know

  • PLS.4095PLS.4095 Member ✭✭

    Perma stealth is actually the problem and it's actually nerf in the new patch.
    Others are just qq and L2P issu.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

    you not knowing doesnt mean that others dont know

    Thank you for your contribution.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

    Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

    Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

    When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

    I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

    Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

    I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

    Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

    Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

    When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

    I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

    Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

    I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

    I don't really care for trait comparisons. Different classes excel at different things, so traits with similar funcionality vary in strenght. What matters is how well a build can fullfill a role. If a build is clearly overperforming in a role, thats where nerfing comes in. You have no idea how thief(or anything for that matter) will perform in the new meta, but thats a prerequisite for proposing new adjustments.

    By the way, just for the sake of arguing: Escapist's Fortitude has the highest condition removal potential, but that's all that is, potential. If someone condiblasts your thief (condi revenant opener, mirage gets you from stealth etc.), then proceeds to not attack you for a few seconds, good luck! You're burning your evades in hope of getting some sustain from it, but the condis are ticking away eating at your healthbar. As much as it's broken while teamfighting with a staff build. it's entirely useless if you 1v1 a decent player.
    Same with sword 2, there is a reason no-port zones are scattered along all of the PvP maps. It might be a potent tool, but as with EF, it's situational. Etc, etc.

    You say these things are unfair to play against... that's just a subjective opinion. Once the meta settles(and these traits/skills are still part of it), you'll be able to back up these complaints with actual statistics/anecdotes but right now it's hardly more than "I don't like thief was designed this way".

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

    Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

    Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

    When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

    I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

    Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

    I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

    I don't really care for trait comparisons.
    Different classes excel at different things, so traits with similar funcionality vary in strenght. What matters is how well a build can fullfill a role. If a build is clearly overperforming in a role, thats where nerfing comes in. You have no idea how thief(or anything for that matter) will perform in the new meta, but thats a prerequisite for proposing new adjustments.

    By the way, just for the sake of arguing: Escapist's Fortitude has the highest condition removal potential, but that's all that is, potential. If someone condiblasts your thief (condi revenant opener, mirage gets you from stealth etc.), then proceeds to not attack you for a few seconds, good luck! You're burning your evades in hope of getting some sustain from it, but the condis are ticking away eating at your healthbar. As much as it's broken while teamfighting with a staff build. it's entirely useless if you 1v1 a decent player.

    No. It literally does not matter what the meta is and looks like. Some things on their face should not exist in the form they are in.

    Take Evasive Mirror on Mesmer. It does not matter how good the rest of mesmer was at the time of the nerf. It doesn't matter if mesmer by design is supposed to be able to build itself to hard counter range. 2 seconds of mirror when a mesmer evades an attack on a 1 second internal cooldown was absolute madness. It needed to be nerfed. That's too much value against ranged builds, too freely and too passively.

    As ridiculous as Evasive Mirror was against ranged builds with only a 1 second ICD, Escapist's Fortitude is for condition builds at only a 1 second ICD.

    If you think Escapist Fortitude is in any way on the same level for condi builds as evasive mirror is for ranged builds, I have a bridge to sell you. Evasive Mirror was just an impenetrable brick wall for ranged builds. If the Mesmer had it, you better have Unblockable attacks or a way to gain unblockable attacks, or you just wouldnt hit the Mesmer. With Escapist Fortitude? Not even remotely. You can do the usual condi burst on an Escapist Fortitude thief, stow your weapon, and watch as he bleeds out with no way to stop your condi burst. Or hell, you can simply have cover condis, and suddenly Escapist fortitude does jack kitten. There is a reason why even when thieves used it, condi builds were pretty much hard counters. The Trait didnt make them immune to condi builds, or even allow them to be evenly matched. It merely let them lose less hard.

    Even your example on it's face is ridiculous. For starters literally no condition build in the game can hit you so hard at full health that Withdraw to heal and remove cover conditions and Signet of Agility isn't going to save your life.

    It's such passive, thoughtless sustain you don't even realize how much benefit cleanse, and sustain the skill gives you compared to other trait based cleanses over the course of a fight.

    It puts any sort of condition build into a catch 22 where they need to attack you to kill you but any attempt to attack you risks retroactively negating the damage they already landed on you considering the sheer number of sources that can provide an evade that are all regenerating in the background: whether it's true Dodge rolls, initiative, their healing skill, a utility skill, or their elite skill.

    It really doesnt. Lets say youre a bursty kind of condition build. In that case you put your burst on them, and stow your weapon. Theyre either forced to burn Shadow Step to survive (which is an extremely valuable cooldown), or they die. And if they burn Shadow step, you just go with the next condi burst, and stow your weapon again. On the other hand, lets say youre the more sustained kind of condi build. In that case, you apply more than 1 different type of condi per second (usually 3). Even if the Thief managed to perfectly time the dodges that he always gets the Escapist fortitude trait procd off cooldown, it will fall far behind, and the thief will still die. As I said, it only lets them lose less hard vs condi builds. If they ever win vs a condi build, its against Mesmer, and thanks to Consume Ectoplasm, and the Resistance it gives.

    No matter what you do you are at a disadvantage. There is no good option due to how passive this trait is combined with the overtuned cleanse capacity. You either stow weapons and thus don't kill the Daredevil or you keep attacking and don't kill the daredevil. It is text book unfair.

    There are only good options. Either youre a burst build, stop weapons and thus definitely kill the Daredevil, or youre a sustained damage build and the trait is more than insufficient to deal with the sheer condition output you have. Its anything but textbook unfair, which is also why its pretty much never been used, even while Pulmonary Impact was overnerfed. It simply wasnt good enough.

    Same with sword 2, there is a reason no-port zones are scattered along all of the PvP maps. It might be a potent tool, but as with EF, it's situational. Etc, etc.

    I am far from the only person to call out Infiltrator's Strike and Return as being problematic and needing adjustments. Even thief mains like Vallun have suggested significantly more radical nerfs than what I have suggested like removing 300 range from both parts of the skill.

    Compare:

    Death's Retreat:
    5 (Scheduled to soon be 6) Initiative
    Damage: 127
    Poisoned (8s): 268 Damage, -33% Heal Effectiveness
    Conditions Removed: 1
    Distance: 600

    Infiltrator's Arrow
    6 Initiative
    Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.
    Distance 900

    Shadow Shot
    4 Initiative
    Damage: 481
    Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.
    Range 900

    Infiltrator's Strike and Return
    5 Initiative
    Damage: 275
    Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.
    Swiftness (3s): 33% Movement Speed
    Conditions Cleansed: 1
    Range: 900+1200 = 2100 Units of distance for 5 Initiative.

    The initiative cost to distance traveled on Sword 2 is ridiculously out of line with other thief movement skills. It will always be ridiculous regardless of whatever meta is present. If you can do basic math you should be able to tell that at a glance.

    Not all distance travelled is equal. Infiltrators Strike can only move towards a targetted enemy, which already puts it out of competition of shortbow 5 (which remains the skill that defines thief in PvP). And even Deaths Retreat (which is frankly a garbage skill, but I digress). The only actual comparision is Shadow Shot. Which is kind of a problem, because (especially with the incoming random nerf), Shadow Shot hasnt been a very good skill in a while. Even so, the difference between the 2 is that Shadow Shot allows to continously stick to an enemy, while Infiltrators Strike forces you to go back to the old position if you want to use it again. Something that is very easy for an enemy to abuse in their favour. With your suggestion, people would be even further disincentivised to use Infiltrators Return. Best case scenario, people only use Infiltrators Strike, and never the follow up skill, using it as a bad 1-time Shadow Shot.

  • Becareful what u wish ... I think this was mentioned not only one time in the nerf teef meme... steal teef everything what "U" think is op and give moar from the other classes, block spam, aegis spam, condi spam, boon spam, ultra damage, ultra bunker, ultra aoe destroyer, perma xy, ultra abc, "bambi" ... and say hello to the beast that will eat u alive ... from +1 and decap to an on point in teamfight killing machine...

    Teef is +1 and cap ... not a duellist (dont waste time with sp or staff) not a teamfigher ... not a bunker not a sup not a Multitalent...

    It is just a teef, if played well with high focus on map/Rotation/ what to fight and what not, on top of over average skill compared to other classes (button smashes will not help u) can be succesfull and carry games, if team not sucks 🤪

    Lets w8 for the patch

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

    Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

    Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

    When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

    I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

    Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

    I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

    I don't really care for trait comparisons.
    Different classes excel at different things, so traits with similar funcionality vary in strenght. What matters is how well a build can fullfill a role. If a build is clearly overperforming in a role, thats where nerfing comes in. You have no idea how thief(or anything for that matter) will perform in the new meta, but thats a prerequisite for proposing new adjustments.

    By the way, just for the sake of arguing: Escapist's Fortitude has the highest condition removal potential, but that's all that is, potential. If someone condiblasts your thief (condi revenant opener, mirage gets you from stealth etc.), then proceeds to not attack you for a few seconds, good luck! You're burning your evades in hope of getting some sustain from it, but the condis are ticking away eating at your healthbar. As much as it's broken while teamfighting with a staff build. it's entirely useless if you 1v1 a decent player.

    Take Evasive Mirror on Mesmer. It does not matter how good the rest of mesmer was at the time of the nerf. It doesn't matter if mesmer by design is supposed to be able to build itself to hard counter range. 2 seconds of mirror when a mesmer evades an attack on a 1 second internal cooldown was absolute madness. It needed to be nerfed. That's too much value against ranged builds, too freely and too passively.

    As ridiculous as Evasive Mirror was against ranged builds with only a 1 second ICD, Escapist's Fortitude is for condition builds at only a 1 second ICD.

    Even your example on it's face is ridiculous. For starters literally no condition build in the game can hit you so hard at full health that Withdraw to heal and remove cover conditions and Signet of Agility isn't going to save your life.

    So Escapist's Fortitude is OP because of other condition cleanses. Got it. I mean I don't... but I pretend that it makes sense. Let's move on!

    It's such passive, thoughtless sustain you don't even realize how much benefit cleanse, and sustain the skill gives you compared to other trait based cleanses over the course of a fight.

    blablabla I cut what im not answering to.

    Compare:

    Death's Retreat:
    5 (Scheduled to soon be 6) Initiative
    Damage: 127
    Poisoned (8s): 268 Damage, -33% Heal Effectiveness
    Conditions Removed: 1
    Distance: 600

    Infiltrator's Arrow
    6 Initiative
    Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.
    Distance 900

    Shadow Shot
    4 Initiative
    Damage: 481
    Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.
    Range 900

    Infiltrator's Strike and Return
    5 Initiative
    Damage: 275
    Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.
    Swiftness (3s): 33% Movement Speed
    Conditions Cleansed: 1
    Range: 900+1200 = 2100 Units of distance for 5 Initiative.

    The initiative cost to distance traveled on Sword 2 is ridiculously out of line with other thief movement skills. It will always be ridiculous regardless of whatever meta is present. If you can do basic math you should be able to tell that at a glance.

    You are doing it again! Comparing things on paper, out of context. Maybe because you take into account what these skills are for, it turns into a comparison of apples to oranges?
    IS&R and SS are useless out of combat, while DR and IA are pure mobility skills. So skills with different purpose&function are balanced differently... what a coincidence! Also this "2100 distance traveled for 5 initative" has the dishonesty of an election campaign ad, does a good job at making the skill you don't like look really really powerful. Even if the skill was cut down to 600-600, people could still whine about thief having infinite disengage potential, there would be people posting how 1200 distance traveled is more then 900 range on Infiltrator's Arrow, yet IA costing 1 more initative(even though a 600/600 IS&R would be borderline useless for anything that's not a condithief)
    AFTER the balance patch hits, you can show me how builds utilising these skills/traits are consistently overperforming, and I'll give you my blessing to campaign for their rework/yeeting out of the Solar System(yes I'm pretty confident this won't happen).

    By the way these are all traits and weapon skills I'm not even using. I'm not protecting my precious little main, just trying to make the point that calling for nerfs right before the already finalised patch hits is pointless. The next patch will likely only arrive after the next pvp season, and I doubt they will look at threads made in early february when deciding what to do for the may/june update.
    I left your first sentence last, it almost made me not answer at all:

    No. It literally does not matter what the meta is and looks like. Some things on their face should not exist in the form they are in.

    So if you don't like something, you nerf it to kitten regardless of how it performs in the meta. That's not something I could even consider doing, but each to his own... Have fun nerfing thief!

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm trying to figure out how shadowstep which in my mind has clearly been the strongest utility in the game across all classes since portal nerf, is being left completely untouched.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @PLS.4095 said:
    Perma stealth is actually the problem and it's actually nerf in the new patch.
    Others are just qq and L2P issu.

    yet Thief Professional Players says otherwise. In fact, there are other ways to Perma Stealth that aren't being addressed in the new patch. In other word, we are being given half-truth to our faces...

    -nothing more to add

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    So if you don't like something, you nerf it to kitten regardless of how it performs in the meta. That's not something I could even consider doing, but each to his own... Have fun nerfing thief!

    If there was a build that the only thing it could do was stand in base and every minute it would randomly select a player on the enemy team and fully kill them this build would both probably never be able to break Gold 2-3 but this build would still not deserve to exist. It wouldn't be meta, but it would be unfair and unhealthy. Somethings can be unhealthy without being good.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 use your scull mate.
    nerfing teleport range makes a big difference.
    sword 2 is toxic becouse thief can keep recasting it while having port back in safe spot ( behind walls/pillars ).
    reducing its range would remove ALOT of spots like that, is there even a single node on the map, where you cant jump on to with s2 while hiding behind los?

    Lets face it, permanent stealth should never be a thing. The fact that thief can get like 80%+ stealth uptime just by having pistol shortbow and smoke is crazy to me.
    maybe smoke field blast should give 2s stealth instead of 3 when already stealthed, kinda tired of 2 thiefs vs 2 thiefs both permastealthing entire team at the start and just afking on mid waiting for someone to get bored and leave stealth

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Bazsi.2734 use your scull mate.
    nerfing teleport range makes a big difference.
    sword 2 is toxic becouse thief can keep recasting it while having port back in safe spot ( behind walls/pillars ).
    reducing its range would remove ALOT of spots like that, is there even a single node on the map, where you cant jump on to with s2 while hiding behind los?

    Lets face it, permanent stealth should never be a thing. The fact that thief can get like 80%+ stealth uptime just by having pistol shortbow and smoke is crazy to me.
    maybe smoke field blast should give 2s stealth instead of 3 when already stealthed, kinda tired of 2 thiefs vs 2 thiefs both permastealthing entire team at the start and just afking on mid waiting for someone to get bored and leave stealth

    Yeah, nerfing teleport range indeed makes a big difference. Convince me it's needed after the patch hits!

    Lets face it, permastealth with the lowered damage will be fine. You can MAYBE oneshot berserker amulet guard/ele/thief and nothing else once the patch hits. Drawn out combat, more landed hits needed to secure a kill. Good luck doing that while camping stealth.

    Also I'm all for nerfing smokescreen, the rework made it stupidly OP. Maybe it will need further toning down(I'm turning into a godforsaken parrot:), wElL sEe AftEr tHe PaTcH HiTs.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Bazsi.2734 use your scull mate.
    nerfing teleport range makes a big difference.
    sword 2 is toxic becouse thief can keep recasting it while having port back in safe spot ( behind walls/pillars ).
    reducing its range would remove ALOT of spots like that, is there even a single node on the map, where you cant jump on to with s2 while hiding behind los?

    Lets face it, permanent stealth should never be a thing. The fact that thief can get like 80%+ stealth uptime just by having pistol shortbow and smoke is crazy to me.
    maybe smoke field blast should give 2s stealth instead of 3 when already stealthed, kinda tired of 2 thiefs vs 2 thiefs both permastealthing entire team at the start and just afking on mid waiting for someone to get bored and leave stealth

    Yeah, nerfing teleport range indeed makes a big difference. Convince me it's needed after the patch hits!

    Lets face it, permastealth with the lowered damage will be fine. You can MAYBE oneshot berserker amulet guard/ele/thief and nothing else once the patch hits. Drawn out combat, more landed hits needed to secure a kill. Good luck doing that while camping stealth.

    Also I'm all for nerfing smokescreen, the rework made it stupidly OP. Maybe it will need further toning down(I'm turning into a godforsaken parrot:), wElL sEe AftEr tHe PaTcH HiTs.

    d/p cant even 1shot now, when im paying attention I can react in time with blink/disort on glass cannon.
    doesnt change the fact that permastealth is stupid.
    My another concern is that mobility was brought down on alot of things but thief got it easy.
    thief has monopoly on it "shrug"
    people should pay close attention to this
    oh and being able to 1shot from stealth or not doesnt change the fact that perma stealth is stupid.

  • lighter.2708lighter.2708 Member ✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    tbh, should start with withdraw, low CD for on demand stealth proc for high backstab up time, easy break immob and no cast time...DP would be fine with hide in shadow

    also yea i think escapist needs CD increase

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lighter.2708 said:
    tbh, should start with withdraw, low CD for on demand stealth proc for high backstab up time, easy break immob and no cast time...DP would be fine with hide in shadow

    also yea i think escapist needs CD increase

    Withdraw doesn't have stealth or a leap. It's just an evade. I find it annoying how uninterruptible it is, similar to why I've advocated for the Mirage heal to get an increased cast time. But right now it's scheduled for a cooldown increase up to 25 seconds up from 18 so that's a solid enough nerf.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • lighter.2708lighter.2708 Member ✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @lighter.2708 said:
    tbh, should start with withdraw, low CD for on demand stealth proc for high backstab up time, easy break immob and no cast time...DP would be fine with hide in shadow

    also yea i think escapist needs CD increase

    Withdraw doesn't have stealth or a leap. It's just an evade. I find it annoying how uninterruptible it is, similar to why I've advocated for the Mirage heal to get an increased cast time. But right now it's scheduled for a cooldown increase up to 25 seconds up from 18 so that's a solid enough nerf.

    ....there's a thing called shadow art that's kinda mandatory for D/P...
    why people commenting here without noticing how thieves disappear after withdraw...

    without withdraw, D/P would be a lot less menacing offensively and defensively...
    also they should move some portion of assassin's signet power to deadly arts, so daredevil/shadow arts/trickery D/P wouldn't do as much damage for how surviving it can be...D/P should be kept in core...

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

    There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

    There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

    Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

    What do you think suddenly changed?

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

    There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

    Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

    What do you think suddenly changed?

    All this is kinda irrelevant by months end no? Considering the changes in the patch some unexpected out comes could occur and dp may not be as viable as they are now. Who knows really lol. Plus just cuz double anything won a tournament doesnt automatically mean it's broken op as theres a lot of variables like for example maybe the thieves out skilled a lot of the opponents or just the teams were better as a whole. If the next 6 tourney winners all have duel dp thieves then maybe it needs to be looked into.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

    There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

    Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

    What do you think suddenly changed?

    so its being justified because someone who is decent on thief did well with 4 other people on his team? Man I should start running pvp again, maybe my build will be considered OP lulz. Too bad couldn't use the excuse the other team just got outplayed because that would mean that skill was the determining factor no? Cant have skill in PvP as everyone is carried by their build :p:p:p

    /sarcasm

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

    There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

    Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

    What do you think suddenly changed?

    All this is kinda irrelevant by months end no?

    Not really because literally nothing on the current thief/daredevil kit is being touched to the degree.. say meta rev is.

    Like right now thief gets a bit of a cooldown increase on Withdraw, a bit of a healing nerf on Escapists Fortitude, the 30% damage nerf everything else is getting, and that's it while other meta builds are eating stuff like;

    • Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.
    • Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.
    • Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds
    • Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds
    • Shackling Wave: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1. Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
    • Riposting Shadows: Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15
    • Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds
    • Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
    • Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds

    Thief is literally the most untouched class by the upcoming megabalance patch to the point where they've barely been touched at all and it's already so meta 6 of the top 10 are specifically maining Shadow Arts DP thief.

    +10

    As Always, Excellent Work!! Mortrialus

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

    There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

    Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

    What do you think suddenly changed?

    A top streamer using assassins signet in a shadow arts build.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I never said they were being over nerfed? I dont think any thief players think that or at least I'd hope not. Most thieves posting are in defense of the communities predictable status quo of asking for even more thief nerfs before patch has even hit lol

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thief is getting severely nerfed in the burst department so idk how that is hard to understand lmao. You dont want high burst thieves ok check. Then why are we eating massive nerfs to make us less potent to 1v1 as well then? You just want thief gone from the meta? :)

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Poledra Val.1490Poledra Val.1490 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    The nerf to burst on thief is warranted its unquestionable. I personally want every class to be viable in some fashion in the meta, the more variety the healthier it is for pvp in general. I still feel that Stealth needs to have at least one drawback since pretty much some professions including thief has it on demand.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @Poledra Val.1490 said:
    The nerf to burst on thief is warranted its unquestionable. I personally want every class to be viable in some fashion in the meta, the more variety the healthier it is for pvp in general. I still feel that Stealth needs to have at least one drawback since pretty much some professions including thief has it on demand.

    A thief has to use its global resource up to maintain perma stealth and loses its stacks accumulated after its next attack, that's not a drawback?

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People may go back to the dancing monkey that is aceo/dd staff

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    People may go back to the dancing monkey that is aceo/dd staff

    Not if the two passive saves get 300 cd they wont. Acro be replaced with DA or CS

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    People may go back to the dancing monkey that is aceo/dd staff

    Not if the two passive saves get 300 cd they wont. Acro be replaced with DA or CS

    Some people can play well enough to not need instant/hard to catch as a safety net, though.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    People may go back to the dancing monkey that is aceo/dd staff

    Not if the two passive saves get 300 cd they wont. Acro be replaced with DA or CS

    Some people can play well enough to not need instant/hard to catch as a safety net, though.

    Yeah but without those I doubt acro would be worth if for a staff build

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    People may go back to the dancing monkey that is aceo/dd staff

    Not if the two passive saves get 300 cd they wont. Acro be replaced with DA or CS

    Some people can play well enough to not need instant/hard to catch as a safety net, though.

    Yeah but without those I doubt acro would be worth if for a staff build

    nobody uses the passive properly anyways, every time I proc it on thief they panic dodge 3+ times.
    I think I have met maybe 2 thiefs that actually used it properly in all my games.

  • I didn’t even know that there were ten thief’s on NA-dp must be meta.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    I can get 9000 with zerker/scholars and DA/CS/SA all pure dps burst but it's not always 9000. If u get boons on u from outside sources tho u can raise that higher but yeah 8000ish is average full power build backstab

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

    on top of that you can do heartseeker combo by.
    p5->seeker->signet->Steal->backstab->m1.
    same thing but it also adds up seeker to the combo
    D/P would be much less of an issue if they fixed thief and their stupid model not appearing.
    I was always advocate of fixing bugs first and seeing how much of a change it makes, but it might be "unfixable" for the resource devs have + it doesnt affect pve.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

    Idk I’ve seen mug damage hit like 4K commonly and up as high as 5k, but maybe it’s cuz I’m playing like bound a lot. Either way burst on thief is pretty dang good in this meta, especially when u consider there’s builds that can perma stealth and some that can dodge a lot, though I don’t really think the burst on the pw dodge build is super high that’s more op cuz of sustain and cc.
    Here’s my opinion, mug nerfed 50%, power coefficients lowered a lot also condition on thief nerfed a lot, but burst shouldn’t be too bad(with a grain of salt) also they increased a few modifiers. I’m pretty sure thief will be decent and some of the nerfed cds, like withdraw won’t really be that high impact except the ones on acro, which will make a difference but I still think those traits will be 100% usable

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    you are doing alot of disservice to all good players by saying its impossible to react withing 0,2s+
    plenty mesmer combos I have dodged reactively " when in the flow ".
    the combo, when done PERFECTLY has AT LEAS 250MS tell, this is when you do it frame perfect ( mesmer side ).
    the fact that most people cant dodge it doesnt mean that nobody can dodge it.
    play the build and you will meet people that have good reaction times and you will be suprised how often they it can be dodged, let alone predicted.