How Did the Charr get so Advanced? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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How Did the Charr get so Advanced?

Based upon the GW2 wiki, there is no lore about how the Charr got so advanced, or why they even went steampunk mode. The history section mentions the Khan-Ur, the release of titans across Tyria, the surrender of the Flame Legion on the Plains of Golghein, and even who brokered the deal between Charr and Humans and such. The only thing it really misses in all that is what this discussion post is about though.

Comments

  • Torn Fierceslash.6375Torn Fierceslash.6375 Member ✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    I think there is a few mentions in game stating how when the female charr rebellion led by Kalla Scorchrazor ended and they had less of a Fanatical relgion based culture since the flame legion no longer held the most power. That in turn allowed the more science based culture to come threw even more so since most of the humans were wiped out by other things over time leading to only 2 places of them. Norn and charr never really fought each other in wars, and asura were still coming to the surface they had free time to focus on other things for once. I would assume them trading with the Asura and Dredge helped them improve also https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr has some more info also.

  • But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would note that it is fair to say that the use of magic in charr technology is mostly incidental. It's based on chemistry and, well, engineering, and while some of their inventions work better than a similar invention would in the real world due to magical properties of the materials used. However, the charr aren't deliberately using magic, they're just using the most effective materials they have access to, and the fact that they're so effective because of magic is incidental.

    It's worth noting that the capabilities of Engineer as a profession, even core Engineer, aren't entirely derived from charr technology.

    Broadly speaking, charr technology is probably better regarded as steampunk (clockwork-punk according to Arenanet) - Tyria's magic is just the explanation for why the steampunk tropes work.

  • The war economy son.

    You have to remember that in effect, the iron legion is an entire state focused 100% on technological advancements.

    Now in our own history times of war seem to be the greatest motivators for technological advances.(e.g. walkie talkies and the internet)

    Now consider the iron legion has been doing this none stop since at least the end of the charr civil war. 1 + 1 = 2

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Charr tech may look more like real-life machines, and it may not glow and float the way asuran tech does, but that's an aesthetic choice.

    An "aesthetic choice" that didnt really work until vastly more intelligent Asura with actual engineering skills helped the Charr fix it.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's because the Charr you see in Gw1 were kinda living under a Dark Age.

    The Flame Legion were a fanatical, religious regime that had more or less total control over the Charr at that point and they didn't care for Technology all that much.
    They cared about magic, power and Gods.

    After the Flame Legion was depowered/overthrown, Charr culture was free to grow and evolve in other ways and technology was a big part of that in the Legions.
    The Olmakhan is another faction that escaped the Flame Legion and formed it's own culture seperate from the Legions as well.

  • Acheron.4731Acheron.4731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Charr technical college and lots of student loans

    Interesting fact: student loans led to most of the wars in tyria

    Don't Worry, My Dutch is OK

  • I like this thread.

    I've always wondered how Charr have such impressive mechanized units at the Citadel then we rarely if ever see them in full kitten-kicking mode. I'm mean they have HUGE looking war machines.
    SOME little things were even used in the original story pursuing zhaitan (I'm not sure what choices or factions you have to follow to use them but you don't need to be a Charr).

  • I think this threat just about answered the question quite well. Now we just need this to go on the Charr history page so that part of Charr history is not 100% neglected!

  • Wait, scratch that though. How do the Pact helicopters work also? (Asking here since the choppers do seem to be made from the Charr based on style, unless it is just me that thinks that.) They only got 1 propeller, which means that the helicopters should should not be able to fly, and if they get into a small bit too much wind, would go sideways, then fall.

  • The Pact tech is mostly a mix of Asura,Human and Charr tech working together. Norn don't usally do tech and Slyvari are mostly plant/organic tech. Now for Charr choppers i assume its some type of stabilizer/ Gryro to keep it centered. Kinda like the engineer mini drones.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mars Balearicus.7138 said:
    Wait, scratch that though. How do the Pact helicopters work also? (Asking here since the choppers do seem to be made from the Charr based on style, unless it is just me that thinks that.) They only got 1 propeller, which means that the helicopters should should not be able to fly, and if they get into a small bit too much wind, would go sideways, then fall.

    To quote myself:

    An "aesthetic choice" that didnt really work until vastly more intelligent Asura with actual engineering skills helped the Charr fix it.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:
    The Pact tech is mostly a mix of Asura,Human and Charr tech working together. Norn don't usally do tech and Slyvari are mostly plant/organic tech. Now for Charr choppers i assume its some type of stabilizer/ Gryro to keep it centered. Kinda like the engineer mini drones.

    I second this opinion, as that is technology that we already have. Check out NOTAR, @Mars Balearicus.7138

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    It's worth noting that the capabilities of Engineer as a profession, even core Engineer, aren't entirely derived from charr technology.

    It's also worth noting Charr pioneered the Engineer class.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    It's worth noting that the capabilities of Engineer as a profession, even core Engineer, aren't entirely derived from charr technology.

    It's also worth noting Charr pioneered the Engineer class.

    Yes, and your point is? That's well known. The point is that just because an Engineer does something doesn't mean that what they're doing was invented by the charr. A lot of it is, to be sure, but if you're looking at something that logically requires golem parts (drones and most automated turrets) or some other deliberate use of magic, there's a good chance you're looking at some other race's contribution. The charr pioneered the profession (in its current form, anyway - there were engineers back in GW1 that were probably more advanced than the charr at the time, but back then it was more of a "someone who builds and maintains machines" rather than the GW2 concept of the engineer), but that doesn't mean that everything the profession uses was invented by the charr.

    Which is the point I was making: just because something appears in the Engineer's list of gadgets, explosives, and potions doesn't mean it was invented by a charr, and, by extension, the use of magic in some engineer skills does not mean that use of magic is commonplace in charr technology.

    (Yes, scrappers have drones and the original scrappers were charr salvage specialists, but what they were salvaging from included a lot of asura tech.)

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    It's worth noting that the capabilities of Engineer as a profession, even core Engineer, aren't entirely derived from charr technology.

    It's also worth noting Charr pioneered the Engineer class.

    Yes, and your point is? That's well known. The point is that just because an Engineer does something doesn't mean that what they're doing was invented by the charr. A lot of it is, to be sure, but if you're looking at something that logically requires golem parts (drones and most automated turrets) or some other deliberate use of magic, there's a good chance you're looking at some other race's contribution. The charr pioneered the profession (in its current form, anyway - there were engineers back in GW1 that were probably more advanced than the charr at the time, but back then it was more of a "someone who builds and maintains machines" rather than the GW2 concept of the engineer), but that doesn't mean that everything the profession uses was invented by the charr.

    Which is the point I was making: just because something appears in the Engineer's list of gadgets, explosives, and potions doesn't mean it was invented by a charr, and, by extension, the use of magic in some engineer skills does not mean that use of magic is commonplace in charr technology.

    (Yes, scrappers have drones and the original scrappers were charr salvage specialists, but what they were salvaging from included a lot of asura tech.)

    Charr have been master engineers from the core game (or thats how its presented) which is likely why the original splash art of the profession was charr from the start. The whole way they presented the profession more or less screamed charr thematically and while the comment of "Charr pioneered the Engineer class" may not be factual in any wiki its certainly screams it based on almost everything in core engineer's kit. and how anet presented it. There is tons of charr engineer splash art for a reason and why they continue to do engi elite splash art as charr as well. Charr are certainly smarter in anets head cannon than i think most people want to give them credit for.

    Its fair to say that the charr possibly could have pushed any engineering from what it was in gw1 to what it is now in gw2 as their civilization stabilized more. I also want to imagine that charr learn from other races when they deem its necessary to do so and only then at that. Anet has never presented them as the type to actively seek help especially if they are part of the legions. As a charr one of the story paths takes you on a mini quest where you more or less build your own design of a gun that disperses ghost so i mean if they can build that im sure they can build all kinds of things.

    I think when people think of charr tech they only consider the clock work and mechanical stuff but im sure some charr are good with chemicals and other things too which can be combined with the mechanical side of things after all charr were / are very agaist magic and at best consider it a tool but nothing to be trusted.

    We also know charr copters existed long before HoT and scrapper so if a charr can make those gyros based on similar stuff to their own tech out of junk then thats more impressive but the tech was there long before scrapper concepts came around.

    Considering we dont need an understanding and control of some magical force in the real world to make mechanical devices fly i dont see why the charr couldnt have made choppers all on their own ;) even without help from say the asura. Im not saying you're wrong but im not saying you're right either.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    Charr have been master engineers from the core game (or thats how its presented) which is likely why the original splash art of the profession was charr from the start. The whole way they presented the profession more or less screamed charr thematically and while the comment of "Charr pioneered the Engineer class" may not be factual in any wiki its certainly screams it based on almost everything in core engineer's kit. and how anet presented it. There is tons of charr engineer splash art for a reason and why they continue to do engi elite splash art as charr as well. Charr are certainly smarter in anets head cannon than i think most people want to give them credit for.

    For what it's worth, I wouldn't put too much stock in that splash art. Some of them match up well- charr engineer, norn warrior, sylvari ranger- but others... well, we don't exactly see many norn mesmers. Or asura necros, for that matter.

    And it is 100%, confirmed-as-fact, stated by the devs that charr pioneered the playable Engineer class. Nobody's saying otherwise. What drax said above is that other races already had engineers as we use the term in the real world- people who build and work on machines, which in GW1 meant things like trebuchets and pump systems.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭
    edited March 1, 2020

    @RyuDragnier.9476 said:
    [...] warlike [...]

    I disagree with the idea of them being warlike in general, though. I know you're one of the charr proponenets so I'm not trying to bait you with this but rather suggest a different perspective.

    The post-Flame charr became a species of protectors. The most obvious touchstone here is Almorra herself, her famous quote that guides the Vigil of "Some must fight, so that all may be free." comes to mind, but it goes deeper.

    I mean, there's the Olmakhan for one thing. They were a great addition, there are many lines in the Olmakhan villager talking about protectors, protectorship, and even the Olmakhan being hot for the Commander because they seem like they'd be a good protector for the cubs, understanding that a protector sometimes needs a gentle hand.

    Next, compare The Black Citadel with Rata Sum. You can fall to your death in so many places in Rata Sum, which is a fair look at how many asura view the perils of science what with madcap inventions ruling the day over the iterative prototyping of grounded engineering. The Black Citadel has guard rails everywhere, everywhere! The charr are of the perspective that the other races visiting there are to be protected. There's actually a line between a charr law officer and some humans where said officer stepped in between them and a rowdy, drunken charr to protect the humans.

    Then there's Ebonhawke, which fascinates me. I find it really hard to believe that WW2 era tanks and mortars wouldn't be able to breach a medieval castle, no matter how fortified it is. Those Bartman-esque battlecars can pretty much drive up mountains anyway, can't they? The charr parked a military force there just to make a point because their goal isn't war any more. It was a show of force to tell Ebonhawke that the charr are ready to protect their own should they get any funny ideas.

    I'm fascinated by charr history too because even at their worst they haven't been genocidal like the other races have. When Flame enslaved the other legions and committed the Searing, I remember noticing in Prophecies that all of the NPCs were still there. The Searing didn't actually kill anyone, it was just a scare tactic meant to strike terror into the humans so that they'd flee. The one who committed genocide against the humans was Adelbern with his Foefire. Oh, also the vizier of Orr with his city-sinking madness.

    It seems that whilst the humans were warring with one another and trying to wipe out each other's nations and any other race that got in the way, the charr were quietly developing in the background. First with the magicks of the Flame Legion, then when that didn't work out the technologies that followed. I mean, I think a big part of why they took to technology in the first place was because they were enslaved by magicks, magicks were used to strike fear into their hearts and keep them in line so they turned from it. Honestly, to the charr magicks must look like the root of all evil at this point and a corruptive force with its own will bent on entropy.

    Though, I mean... I might see that too. It seems that if you're using the arcane magicks to do anything destructive (the stock market, war golems, death rays) it'll cooperate, but if you try to use it for anything good it throws a hissy-fit and becomes madly destructive. Power plants explode into massive elementals, golems rebel, weather machines open portals to other realities ruled by hostile forces, and so on. So I can see why the charr might come to that conclusion. Sometimes I wonder if the arcane magicks are driven by pathos and suffering.

    Then there's Kralky's torment too... I'm getting off track, though.

    The point is is that I think the charr developed technologies to be better protectors rather than better warlords. Wasn't it Smodur who reached out to create the alliance of the five races? Wasn't The Black Citadel the first to open its doors to other races? I may be wrong but I recall reading about that. My perspective here is that if you can make everyone else "us," then that drive to protect can be used for a very diverse population. Smodur's clever.

    I always had this feeling about the charr that they were more focused upon protection rather than war but it was the Olmakhan who really drove that point home for me. The legions are just a somewhat distorted mirror of an almost instinctive need to protect, one that's been twisted by the torment of attempted genocide and war brought to their doorstep. At the end of the day though, talking to contemporary charr NPCs I feel that the primary drive they have is to protect above all else. Sometimes they can't agree on who deserves to be protected but that does seem to be their core ethos. To guard, to save, to preserve, to protect.

    That's why I have that theory about Ebonhawke. The charr just wanted their ancestral burial and hunting grounds back, they wanted to protect the lands of their forefathers from invaders. Once they had that they didn't feel any need to push beyond that, so they were happy to let the humans have Ebonhawke so long as they didn't get any funny ideas about invading again.

    It's especially funny because were I a betting man I'd say that even Bangar is a protector, a very, very, very clever protector. No, hear me out. Spoilers here, of course, so caveat lector. What I found interesting with Bangar is that he shot the Commander when they were about to be taken over by Jormag, yes? That's really interesting! He's the Imperator of the Blood Legion, if he wanted that shot to be lethal he likely could've. So here's an interesting supposition.

    What if Bangar realises that Jormag is trying to brainwash him and he can't fully resist it? Instead he's using a little misdirection. "See, Jormag? I'm definitly under your control. You want me to see the Commander as a charr-hating racist/race traitor, so I shot them! That's absolutely what you'd want me to do, isn't it? I'm a good, obedient brainwashed charr. I absolutely have no plans to betray you."

    I smell the misdirection here. A case of the paying attention to the right hand with the wiggling finger so that the left hand performing the trick is ignored.

    I may be entirely off base but it would make for an interesting story and it'd fit this behavioural model for the charr overall. Bangar isn't above playing his opponent like this, especially if he has no other means with which to fight. Jormag's in his head, influencing him, so the more he plays along the more he's able to resist in the shadows. Again, I could be off base but it would add an interesting layer to his character.

    That's just how I see the charr anyhow. If a race is that driven to protect then they'd want the means to do so. For the Olmakhan those means are magicks and their magicks are pretty potent. For the legions those means are technology. A drive that strong would easily push them through their own industrial revolution.

    Footnote: Also, some just hate the charr. It's to be expected. I think it comes from a weird place of applying ethno-superiority and privilege to a game where the assumed supreme race of our reality wasn't always successful there. It's an untenable slight and a horrific insult to them that their chosen race didn't stand unchallenged in ArenaNet's fiction. I don't agree with their distaste of course as I'm not a fan of any kind of supremacy whether it's expressed in fiction or reality. The charr are equals with many other races now and I appreciate that that's the case, though I have to admit that the aforementioned contingent has made me like the race they represent less.

    I'm as much of a fan of the norn as I always was, though. I absolutely won't let them ruin the norn for me. Thankfully the norn—apparently due to their strange, somewhat inhuman proportions—don't represent traditional beauty and thus don't click with the ethno-superiority that drives these aggressions.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    Charr have been master engineers from the core game (or thats how its presented) which is likely why the original splash art of the profession was charr from the start. The whole way they presented the profession more or less screamed charr thematically and while the comment of "Charr pioneered the Engineer class" may not be factual in any wiki its certainly screams it based on almost everything in core engineer's kit. and how anet presented it. There is tons of charr engineer splash art for a reason and why they continue to do engi elite splash art as charr as well. Charr are certainly smarter in anets head cannon than i think most people want to give them credit for.

    For what it's worth, I wouldn't put too much stock in that splash art. Some of them match up well- charr engineer, norn warrior, sylvari ranger- but others... well, we don't exactly see many norn mesmers. Or asura necros, for that matter.

    And it is 100%, confirmed-as-fact, stated by the devs that charr pioneered the playable Engineer class. Nobody's saying otherwise. What drax said above is that other races already had engineers as we use the term in the real world- people who build and work on machines, which in GW1 meant things like trebuchets and pump systems.

    This. There are even some primitive cannons around in GW1.

    There's no doubt that the charr pioneered the playable engineer profession and have made the largest contribution to it, but they haven't made the only contributions. The original holosmiths were humans figuring out that they could use Zephyrite crystals to power holographic magitech, while holographic magitech in general originated from the asura. The original scrappers were members of a charr caste (often a punishment detail) specialising in scavenging and repurposing scrap, employing their skills to make what they could out of the crashed Pact ships... which, in the words of Trahearne, are a combination of charr, human, and asura technology. I'm pretty sure there was also mention of elixirs coming from the asura in prerelease interviews and the like, but that's going back a way and a lot of them are no longer available.

    Ultimately, the statement that the charr generally avoid using magic in their technology (while asura magitech is pretty much entirely fuelled by magic) is not incompatible with the observation that some parts of the engineer's kit is obviously using magic, since not everything in the engineer profession was invented by a charr - and when it comes to PCs, PCs of all races are portrayed as being more open-minded than is typical for their race. The charr (non-Flame) aversion to magic helps make their technology more grounded - it's not as spectacular as asura magitech tends to be, but it's more practical, more mass-producible, and less prone to catastrophic malfunction.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Ebonhawke has fortifications on an order of magnitude greater than anything I've heard of in history. For example (according to a quick google), the largest of Constantinople's famous walls was 'only' about 16 feet thick and 40 feet high, and it still took months of bombardment paired with traditional siege tactics to get through.

    That said? In north-east Ebonhawke, you can find a scar from where a charr siege shot did make it over the wall. Two city blocks, wiped out. There's plenty of reason to believe that Ebonhawke hadn't been high on the Legions' priorities for a long time, but they never truly stopped the killing until within a year of the game's beginning.

    You've covered a lot of what I would have said, but to expand on this specifically, I'd also note that it's mentioned a few times that the Ebon Vanguard got very good at sneaking out and destroying anything that got a clear shot at the walls before it could do too much damage. I think it gets referenced in Ghosts of Ascalon, and one of the Citadel of Flame paths is essentially an ex-Vanguard saboteur rescuing the engineer whose machines she made a habit of destroying during the war.

    Ebonhawke's magical defences might also be being underestimated here. I recall that there used to be discussions about how weak the defences of Divinity's Reach were, and then when somebody does try besieging it there's suddenly a giant magical dome protecting it (started by Queen Jennah, but when you look at the dome from Lake Doric, the colours suggest that it might be a mix of mesmer and guardian magic). Ebonhawke doesn't have DR's magical resources, but the Vanguard probably has some ability to reinforce the physical defences of the citadel with magical ones.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mars Balearicus.7138 said:
    But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

    The book about the founding of lions arch did confirm that the mechanical engine was specifically invented by the charr to defeat humanity who only had sailboats and the rare magic powered boat but mainly depended on the rising tides to be able to launch their ships. Luckily, peace had begun to blossom by the time the engine was thoroughly tested.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2020

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Mars Balearicus.7138 said:
    But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

    The book about the founding of lions arch did confirm that the mechanical engine was specifically invented by the charr to defeat humanity who only had sailboats and the rare magic powered boat but mainly depended on the rising tides to be able to launch their ships. Luckily, peace had begun to blossom by the time the engine was thoroughly tested.

    The impression I got was that it was a combination of the port that the Charr were using also getting flooded, and by the time they recovered from that, Kryta had already lost most of its sea trade and coastal possessions and getting from Ascalon to Kryta by sea required going past Orr. The idea of attacking Kryta from sea with a powered ship went from "this could be an effective way to hurt them and divert resources from Ascalon" to "this is no longer viable".

    There was an attempt at a peace overture in the period covered by the book, but that was ruined by the protagonists unknowingly intercepting the peace offerings, and the war was back into full force later in the book. The war is largely presented as similar to the Hundred Years War in real-world history - there are periods of high-intensity conflict and there are periods where there are lulls between major campaigns where people might start thinking about peace before something stirs the pot yet again.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Mars Balearicus.7138 said:
    But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

    The book about the founding of lions arch did confirm that the mechanical engine was specifically invented by the charr to defeat humanity who only had sailboats and the rare magic powered boat but mainly depended on the rising tides to be able to launch their ships. Luckily, peace had begun to blossom by the time the engine was thoroughly tested.

    The impression I got was that it was a combination of the port that the Charr were using also getting flooded, and by the time they recovered from that, Kryta had already lost most of its sea trade and coastal possessions and getting from Ascalon to Kryta by sea required going past Orr. The idea of attacking Kryta from sea with a powered ship went from "this could be an effective way to hurt them and divert resources from Ascalon" to "this is no longer viable".

    There was an attempt at a peace overture in the period covered by the book, but that was ruined by the protagonists unknowingly intercepting the peace offerings, and the war was back into full force later in the book. The war is largely presented as similar to the Hundred Years War in real-world history - there are periods of high-intensity conflict and there are periods where there are lulls between major campaigns where people might start thinking about peace before something stirs the pot yet again.

    That might have been how it went. Im going on years old memory here. Though, it wouldn't explain why the charr didn't become the preeminent ocean power from then on since they were the ones who had the only mass producible engine that didn't rely on the tides. For all intents and purposes, they had the ability for modern warships vs wooden technology that would've been comparitavely ancient and obsolete. Either way, it is confirmation of advanced tech that was specifically built for the war in the absence of relying on magical solutions of the Flame Legion shamans.

    edit: perhaps the coming of the undead pressured the charr Legions into sharing the engine with Lions Arch in an effort to strengthen them to create a buffer which in turn, would inevitably bleed out to the other races city states since LA was so integrated.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Mars Balearicus.7138 said:
    But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

    The book about the founding of lions arch did confirm that the mechanical engine was specifically invented by the charr to defeat humanity who only had sailboats and the rare magic powered boat but mainly depended on the rising tides to be able to launch their ships. Luckily, peace had begun to blossom by the time the engine was thoroughly tested.

    The impression I got was that it was a combination of the port that the Charr were using also getting flooded, and by the time they recovered from that, Kryta had already lost most of its sea trade and coastal possessions and getting from Ascalon to Kryta by sea required going past Orr. The idea of attacking Kryta from sea with a powered ship went from "this could be an effective way to hurt them and divert resources from Ascalon" to "this is no longer viable".

    There was an attempt at a peace overture in the period covered by the book, but that was ruined by the protagonists unknowingly intercepting the peace offerings, and the war was back into full force later in the book. The war is largely presented as similar to the Hundred Years War in real-world history - there are periods of high-intensity conflict and there are periods where there are lulls between major campaigns where people might start thinking about peace before something stirs the pot yet again.

    That might have been how it went. Im going on years old memory here. Though, it wouldn't explain why the charr didn't become the preeminent ocean power from then on since they were the ones who had the only mass producible engine that didn't rely on the tides. For all intents and purposes, they had the ability for modern warships vs wooden technology that would've been comparitavely ancient and obsolete. Either way, it is confirmation of advanced tech that was specifically built for the war in the absence of relying on magical solutions of the Flame Legion shamans.

    Geography, pretty much. Ascalon itself is landlocked - the charr port was probably somewhere in the general vicinity of where the Labyrinthine Cliffs are today. Presumably it's possible to get there from Ascalon even if a direct route wasn't available to players in either game, but it's probably a difficult enough trip that the logistics to supply a significant fleet operating from that port would be a nightmare. Furthermore, any attempt to set out from there requires passing through the Straits of Devastation, which probably wan't practical once Zhaitan had locked down that area, until the Pact founded Fort Trinity.

    (Even then, the Straits of Devastation have some pretty narrow spots for taking an ocean-going vessel through, to the point where if what's shown in-game is genuinely representative, portage is probably required to get a ship across.)

    So it seems to be a matter of having the technology, but not having the ports necessary to form a viable fleet.

    Which, to relate this discussion to present events, might be part of the reason why Bangar is interested in the Verdant Cascades - it provides a more practical base from which to attack Kryta from the north, either by land or across water.

  • Taylan.2187Taylan.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    kitten, that's a good piece of writing. Loving the whole theme with religious cult manipulating society -> witch hunts and scapegoating of a disobedient woman -> patriarchal society -> atheist/feminist rebellion. Ree Soesbee FTW.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2020

    Imagine legitimately believing the charr aren’t warlike and don’t build things specifically for war.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2020

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Imagine legitimately believing the charr aren’t warlike and don’t build things specifically for war.

    Sword and gateling gun? Oh, you must mean my 6 foot cheese slicer and belt fed, air cooled, gas propelled, high velocity fly swatter...

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    Like, I legitimately do not get this push amongst some to make the charr seem what they are not.

    They have always intended to be warlike and belligerent. That is quite literally meant to be their appeal. They don't care about what others think about them, they look out for the charr first and kitten the rest.

    I do not see what is wrong with that, it's a fantasy race, trying to identify with them and pin real life values to them is bizarre to me.

    Like the charr for what they are, not for what you want them to be or what you think they represent.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Like, I legitimately do not get this push amongst some to make the charr seem what they are not.

    They have always intended to be warlike and belligerent. That is quite literally meant to be their appeal. They don't care about what others think about them, they look out for the charr first and kitten the rest.

    I do not see what is wrong with that, it's a fantasy race, trying to identify with them and pin real life values to them is bizarre to me.

    Like the charr for what they are, not for what you want them to be or what you think they represent.

    Definatley Charr first. But not kitten the rest or else they'd just be another NPC group that doesn't work with anybody. Heck even those guys are willing to work with each other from time to time.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Like, I legitimately do not get this push amongst some to make the charr seem what they are not.

    They have always intended to be warlike and belligerent. That is quite literally meant to be their appeal. They don't care about what others think about them, they look out for the charr first and kitten the rest.

    I do not see what is wrong with that, it's a fantasy race, trying to identify with them and pin real life values to them is bizarre to me.

    Like the charr for what they are, not for what you want them to be or what you think they represent.

    I think there is a degree to which the charr are a race in transition. They're shifting from being a race focused on war (which is supported by industry) to a culture focused on industry (which happens to be useful for war). Bangar is the holdout of the old ways - Smodur probably wants to achieve peace so his nation can grow rich selling automobiles and tractors.

    That warlike past does need to be recognised, however. Modern charr may not be (all) stuck in the thinking of their ancestors, but their society has been structured along military lines throughout their recorded history, and they've only recently started to consider peace itself to be something worth fighting for.

    They're a race that have been warmongers for pretty much all of their history...but one which is on the cusp of growing into something more if they can resist the efforts of Bangar and his ilk to keep them stuck in traditional ways of thinking. And I personally consider that to be a large part of their appeal. You don't need to whitewash their history for them to be awesome. What makes them truly awesome is their potential to outgrow that history, to break out of that rut they've been stuck in for centuries.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, I agree with that. It's the whitewashing I am referring to.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    Yeah, they're entire societal structure encompasses being multiple branches of a huge military machine. They're entire history is composed of them conquering lands and people, including themselves. There really is no real arguement for them not being a warlike people. I think some people have a problem reconciling being a completely warlike culture with having allies. But the two don't need to be in conflict. And I think Anet has done a good job of portraying that.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    Yeah, they're entire societal structure encompasses being multiple branches of a huge military machine. They're entire history is composed of them conquering lands and people, including themselves. There really is no real arguement for them not being a warlike people. I think some people have a problem reconciling being a completely warlike culture with having allies. But the two don't need to be in conflict. And I think Anet has done a good job of portraying that.

    The dangerous thing is that up to now, they've had allies largely on a basis of "if one of my enemies is fighting my more dangerous enemy instead of me, I'm better off, and I can probably trust them not to stab me in the back as long as they feel that the common enemy is a bigger threat". Now we're seeing a split between the side who thinks that maybe the enemy of their enemy can still be their friend even after the common enemy is gone, and the side led by Bangar who's convinced that with the common enemy gone, the original war is certain to resume sooner or later.

    One of the fortunate things is that Smodur is firmly in the first category, and Bangar can't strike directly at Ebonhawke without going through Iron Legion territory, so he needs to find another route if he wishes to attack. But we know the charr have crossed the mountains and attacked Kryta from the north before.

    (It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    We already know that centaur are probably going to be involved in the story from the trailer, and the human slaves that were also seen.

    Bangar and his army are going into the Woodland Cascades next update, the only logical explanation is that he’s going to ally with the centaur and is aiming to attack Kryta.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    The dangerous thing is that up to now, they've had allies largely on a basis of "if one of my enemies is fighting my more dangerous enemy instead of me, I'm better off, and I can probably trust them not to stab me in the back as long as they feel that the common enemy is a bigger threat". Now we're seeing a split between the side who thinks that maybe the enemy of their enemy can still be their friend even after the common enemy is gone, and the side led by Bangar who's convinced that with the common enemy gone, the original war is certain to resume sooner or later.

    One of the fortunate things is that Smodur is firmly in the first category, and Bangar can't strike directly at Ebonhawke without going through Iron Legion territory, so he needs to find another route if he wishes to attack. But we know the charr have crossed the mountains and attacked Kryta from the north before.

    (It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

    Absolutlely very dangerous. I would say though, that that danger isn't relegated specifically to the charr. It just seems to be the ever present danger of national relationships. We know humanities propensity to turn on their former allies as the need for them lessens from the Guild Wars. And we know that any political ties can be severed by any new change in leadership. Bangar may do that, but that would put him squarely in the realm of every other NPC faction who gets gang banged by all the other playable races.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    We already know that centaur are probably going to be involved in the story from the trailer, and the human slaves that were also seen.

    Bangar and his army are going into the Woodland Cascades next update, the only logical explanation is that he’s going to ally with the centaur and is aiming to attack Kryta.

    Bringing the legions together, chasing Jormag through the mountains, now this? Bangar is a busy man.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    We already know that centaur are probably going to be involved in the story from the trailer, and the human slaves that were also seen.

    Bangar and his army are going into the Woodland Cascades next update, the only logical explanation is that he’s going to ally with the centaur and is aiming to attack Kryta.

    Bringing the legions together, chasing Jormag through the mountains, now this? Bangar is a busy man.

    From what we've been told about Bangar, what he's been saying, and who his allies are, wiping out humanity from Tyria and founding an empire from their conquered lands seems to be Bangar's endgame (he boasts about how his "charr imperium will extend from the Shiverpeaks to Cantha"). Jormag he views as a means to an end - if Aurene is willing to fight for humanity he needs his own Elder Dragon to offset her, and if she isn't, then having his own Elder Dragon would just make everything easier.

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    The dangerous thing is that up to now, they've had allies largely on a basis of "if one of my enemies is fighting my more dangerous enemy instead of me, I'm better off, and I can probably trust them not to stab me in the back as long as they feel that the common enemy is a bigger threat". Now we're seeing a split between the side who thinks that maybe the enemy of their enemy can still be their friend even after the common enemy is gone, and the side led by Bangar who's convinced that with the common enemy gone, the original war is certain to resume sooner or later.

    One of the fortunate things is that Smodur is firmly in the first category, and Bangar can't strike directly at Ebonhawke without going through Iron Legion territory, so he needs to find another route if he wishes to attack. But we know the charr have crossed the mountains and attacked Kryta from the north before.

    (It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

    Absolutlely very dangerous. I would say though, that that danger isn't relegated specifically to the charr. It just seems to be the ever present danger of national relationships. We know humanities propensity to turn on their former allies as the need for them lessens from the Guild Wars. And we know that any political ties can be severed by any new change in leadership. Bangar may do that, but that would put him squarely in the realm of every other NPC faction who gets gang banged by all the other playable races.

    There's a degree of this, but we've also seen that humans can achieve long-term peaceful relations with other races, even if there is also a lot of precedent for agreements to fall apart when one side gets greedy or xenophobic. For charr, establishing anything deeper than a "I won't attack you for now because I have something bigger to fight" with non-charr is uncharted territory. Smodur seems to have decided that the distinction is unimportant - making an agreement with non-charr is no different to making an agreement with a rival charr legion you had previously been at war with. For Bangar, however, that distinction remains very important. Charr above all.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    There's a degree of this, but we've also seen that humans can achieve long-term peaceful relations with other races, even if there is also a lot of precedent for agreements to fall apart when one side gets greedy or xenophobic. For charr, establishing anything deeper than a "I won't attack you for now because I have something bigger to fight" with non-charr is uncharted territory. Smodur seems to have decided that the distinction is unimportant - making an agreement with non-charr is no different to making an agreement with a rival charr legion you had previously been at war with. For Bangar, however, that distinction remains very important. Charr above all.

    That's a good point. I was going to bring up that the charr are multiple nations who have generally gotten along but you addressed that well. I would say that one big thing Smodur has in his favor is the more global mindset of the playable nations, due to the dragon awakening. This means that charr are incentivized by more options and benefits and quality of life from more nations while they are discouraged by the greater unity of a multination alliance including one that regulates and manages international travel. I think any real effort for the charr to go back to old ways would depend on the humans, sylvari and asura 's relationship to also fail. In fact, we see individual factions who don't want peace from every race are simply not globally successful. And the only real time they stand a chance (short of making themselves into living gods) is when they get allies from other races who are similarly minded.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    There's a degree of this, but we've also seen that humans can achieve long-term peaceful relations with other races, even if there is also a lot of precedent for agreements to fall apart when one side gets greedy or xenophobic. For charr, establishing anything deeper than a "I won't attack you for now because I have something bigger to fight" with non-charr is uncharted territory. Smodur seems to have decided that the distinction is unimportant - making an agreement with non-charr is no different to making an agreement with a rival charr legion you had previously been at war with. For Bangar, however, that distinction remains very important. Charr above all.

    That's a good point. I was going to bring up that the charr are multiple nations who have generally gotten along but you addressed that well. I would say that one big thing Smodur has in his favor is the more global mindset of the playable nations, due to the dragon awakening. This means that charr are incentivized by more options and benefits and quality of life from more nations while they are discouraged by the greater unity of a multination alliance including one that regulates and manages international travel. I think any real effort for the charr to go back to old ways would depend on the humans, sylvari and asura 's relationship to also fail. In fact, we see individual factions who don't want peace from every race are simply not globally successful. And the only real time they stand a chance (short of making themselves into living gods) is when they get allies from other races who are similarly minded.

    Yeah, there's a point where Smodur comments regarding Bangar "and he knew he'd lose". He's referring to Bangar taking on Iron and Ash, but broadly speaking, there's also an interracial quasi-alliance going on and any race that goes against that is going to be in trouble. Pre-truce, the sylvari and asura were both somewhat human-leaning but still largely neutral, probably largely because human-charr history is murky enough that it's hard to say which was really in the right. If one side unilaterally breaks the truce afterwards, though, that side is going to be viewed as the aggressor, and the other races are probably going to support the side that was attacked against the faction that is now seen as the overall threat to peace. Whether asura and sylvari would actively fight on behalf of humans against charr is hard to say, but giving one side full access to asura magitech while the other is completely denied such would probably be decisive, considering that the charr-human war has mostly been one of stalemate and phony war outside of the odd gamechanger such as the Searing. While the charr probably are more powerful overall militarily than Kryta, the gap is not so great that Kryta wasn't able to stalemate and occasionally push back against them, and it's possible that Elona might become a factor in any resumed hostilities.

    To offset that, Bangar needs to not just manage to unite the charr fully under himself, he'd also need to reinforce the legions with as many allies as he can get. Centaurs make for a natural ally, especially if he's willing to cede Kryta to the centaurs (or at least claim to until it's their turn for the chopping block).

    Mind you, I think another side of it is that Iron and Ash naturally see more benefit to being part of a multiracial system. Iron is an industrial powerhouse, and Ash's espionage skills seem to be applicable to commerce as well (see, for instance, Evon Gnashblade). Blood, on the other hand, is mostly specialised in simply being soldiers. They're not actually as one-dimensional as that statement might imply at face value, but it does seem as if they're the legion that's most likely to be left behind in times of peace, and therefor it makes sense that Bangar would be the most militaristic of the Imperators.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    (It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

    That may very well be the case. Back in Core Tyria we already learned this piece of information about a potential centaur-Flame Legion alliance from undercover agents if we were a member of Order of Whispers:

    Fural Rageseeker: We sent out some agents to keep an eye on the centaurs to the west. There are reports that centaurs have been seen meeting with the Flame Legion. If that's true, it's quite concerning.

    Assuming that some of the defectors from Efram's Flame splinter group were aware (or even part of) these early tentative probings for an alliance with the centaurs, Bangar may be using the intel of the Flame defectors working alongside his renegades to reach out to the centaurs in Woodland Cascades. Although the centaurs have weakened in the aftermath of Ulgoth's demise and the failed Siege of Divinity's Reach (which curiously only saw some of the Harathi aiding the White Mantle there with no sign of the Modniir overlords who tend to lead the centaur alliance), it's possible that the Modniir High Command (or a new War King if such has arisen in the power vacuum) will be more than happy to gain new charr allies now that the centaurs' White Mantle supporters are gone. One can only hope that by this time we'll also encounter centaur civilians and rebels who wish to overthrow the tyrannical military dictatorship while we could use charr and sylvari as negotiators for a potential human-centaur peace treaty now that Jennah has the evidence to prove that Caudecus was deliberately playing Ulgoth and the centaurs to keep the war raging while pinning the blame of human atrocities against centaurs on the Queen's Seraph.

    It also begs the question what the rest of the Flame Legion is doing at this time; they're certainly not supporting Efram, but they also shouldn't be supporting Bangar either. Efram is only leading a small splinter group and is not widely recognized as a Flame Imperator candidate yet, and we know that Flame Imperator Baelfire, Hierophant Improaster and two tribunes have fallen since personal story, but realistically the Flame Legion should still have at least four tribunes left (if the Flame Legion has the same number of tribunes as the Iron Legion has) to lead various splinter groups as well as a potential replacement for the late Hierophant Improaster in the shaman caste. It would be interesting if Crecia's sire, who is said to be a high-ranking shaman, has become this new Hierophant, and we'd witness some lovely family reunion between the two; after all, Crecia still has unfinished business with the Flame Legion based on what we learn from her backstory in Bound by Blood.

    We've also yet to hear what has become of the Molten Alliance and whoever its dredge and Flame Legion charr leaders are as devs have confirmed that the leaders of Scarlet's alliances (unknown leaders of the Molten and Toxic Alliances, and Mai Trin of the Aetherblades) did not participate in the Battle for Lion's Arch (they instead handled the logistics of the campaign) and are still out there plotting something. We've also been told that the Flame Legion excommunicated any Flame Legion who joined the Molten Alliance once that alliance failed in their objectives, so this will be yet another splinter group to potentially worry about (particularly if the charr leader in the Molten Alliance is not just some centurion but potentially a dishonored Flame tribune).

    Likewise, the Iron Legion has a potentially huge Bangar sympathizer within its ranks: the so far unseen Tribune Fume Brighteye who dislikes the Ebonhawke Treaty because of what the humans did to her sire, is among the top three most respected Iron tribunes (alongside Mia Kindsleshot and Bhuer Goreblade), and is bucking to be the next imperator. That kind of ambitious, vicious and cunning female with a sympathetic backstory would be the perfect candidate for being one of Bangar's moles in the Black Citadel as she bides her time to stage a coup and seize the Claw of the Khan-Ur while Smodur is busy fighting Bangar's forces in Woodland Cascades. We've yet to learn about the Ash tribunes in the Ash Legion homelands, but we know from Grothmar Valley dialogue that some Ash Legion (who are not part of the renegade expedition) are already planning to make preparations for something under Malice's nose, so who knows if some Fume-like peace-hating tribune may be staging a coup against Malice at the same time that Fume makes her move against Smodur if it comes to that. One can only hope that we'll also run into the rest of the Blood Legion tribunes as well as Rytlock and Crecia's Stone Warband as the warband members are all said to be notable military officers in the Blood Legion. :)