Herald Needs Serious Teleportation Nerf — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Herald Needs Serious Teleportation Nerf

Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

The performance on this class is too strong in higher tier play, and it isn't because of damage output like most people think.

It's the over saturation of way too much teleportation chase potential.

You could actually disable the Herald's walk/run WASD functions completely, and it would still stick to you like glue and be the strongest chase class in the game.

That's too much.

<1

Comments

  • @Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:
    Hmm okay
    Nerf CD on GS block for boonbeast, reduce their dash and leap distance and put LB's range in line with others making 1.2k range. Oh and damage on axe is too high please.

    I can do that too cuz I am too sick of chasing you guys on WvW, without phase traversal there'd be no way to chase you down.

    Hmm okay
    Then nerf CD on Photon shield block for holo, reduce their rocket boots leap distance and put mortar kits range in line with others making 1.2k range. Oh and damage on photon forge is too high please.

    I can do that too cuz I am too sick of chasing you guys on WvW, without x2 swoop there'd be no way to chase you down.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Didn't the OP quit for good? And Rev is fine with their mobility, even after when the changes go through.

  • they'll probably be fine post patch.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The performance on this class is too strong in higher tier play, and it isn't because of damage output like most people think.

    It's the over saturation of way too much teleportation chase potential.

    You could actually disable the Herald's walk/run WASD functions completely, and it would still stick to you like glue and be the strongest chase class in the game.

    That's too much.

    they lose stun remove on swap, you cant chase when you are stunned.
    there reason why they are over the top is becouse they are 100% always actiave, always mitigating damage or dishing out damage

    ^ Leonidrex hit the issue on the head. A good herald has very very few openings. Even if you do manage to get into one they can resustain right out of the counter pressure. They have high burst, great mobility, great sustain, great CC. It's not that any certain thing is super OP more so how all their kit works together. The sum of their skills makes them super oppressive in a fight.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Wisty.4135Wisty.4135 Member ✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    They need that mobility since they have the lowest hp pool/armor and no block/evades.

    This. All of this.

    All of this. Idk why this even needs to be said, I mean if they gave rev some defenses they wouldn't need all that mobility. Sounds ENTIRELY like a L2P issue to me.

    :^)

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally I think:

    • Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.
    • Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.
    • Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds
    • Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds
    • Shackling Wave: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1. Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
    • Riposting Shadows: Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15
    • Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds
    • Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
    • Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds

    These changes all right here are VERY potent nerfs to meta Glint Shiro. Like very direct, very impactful nerfs that hit Glint Shiro in the ways I think the build is primarily unfair, namely that between it's overabundance of stun breaks along side it's impeccable defensive rotation it's a build that brings Team Fight Carry level damage while being functionally impossible to focus due to it's capacity to chain evades, blocks, and it's damage reversal.

    I'm personally not scared of Glint Shiro going forward.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The performance on this class is too strong in higher tier play, and it isn't because of damage output like most people think.

    It's the over saturation of way too much teleportation chase potential.

    As some others said, Phase Traversal will get nerfs in damage in the incoming balance patch, and the breakstun on legend swap with the Empty Vessel will no longer exist. Moving further, since off hand sword Shackling Wave damage was thrashed and the burst damage potential will be less than half of the currently, I don't think you'll see much Heralds in the future (or at least in a +1 role; a different thing could be as a condi bunker or in support roles). I think that will be missed once the people starts to notice that in the new meta you'll need +2 (yes, three players) to kill a lone bruiser...

  • JayAction.9056JayAction.9056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    Edit

    Can’t let my secrets out. You still crying about 2015 rev meta though? Check the leaderboards fam.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wisty.4135 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    They need that mobility since they have the lowest hp pool/armor and no block/evades.

    This. All of this.

    All of this. Idk why this even needs to be said, I mean if they gave rev some defenses they wouldn't need all that mobility. Sounds ENTIRELY like a L2P issue to me.

    :^)

    I AgReEeEeE

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Revs fine these days and other than being brought in line does wise with all the other classes next patch they're really not a issue imo. Think even some of the legends could use some love along with druid.

  • IMO teleport in itself is fine, what's not fine is burst/damage potential, it's a bit too high for that mobility/sustain like most HoT and PoF e-speces including soulbork... Don't forget that Revs can't be like: "I'm outta of here cause he blocked my super 0.5ms 20k burst out of nowhere" instantly without another possible target to which they can port unlike someone certain called soulbeast or other high mobility class that doesn't need target to be "mobile"... Oh, and they'll get nerfed.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    Not everything I complain about is because it's OP.

    Some things have just gotten to be too much mechanically within the system, making the game feel too "Super Monkey Blast Attack" as described in this post by @Master Ketsu.4569 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97262/why-increasing-cooldowns-does-not-reduce-spam-and-can-even-make-spam-worse which is entirely worth reading before you heckle this post any further.

    Things that in my opinion, have become Super Monkey Blast Attacks:

    • Teleportations game-wide - There is too much of this going on at this point, but Shiro/Glint really just exploits it to the highest level of ape button mashing as possible.
    • Stealth game-wide - IT'S TOO MUCH. It began to define a stealth headshot meta. And although damage is getting nerfed, stealth access & uptime keeps going up. I don't like it when the game feels like Alien vs. Predator stealth wars 2. It has nothing to do with anything being OP but rather really unnecessary and over saturated.
    • Firebrand in general concerning support factor dominance - Saiyan tier sensu bean support factor, that no other class is allowed to even get inside of the ballpark to be able to touch, even though plenty of other classes were designed for support. Just why?
    • Literally everything about current Pistol Whip is as ape as it gets. Seriously, you could actually teach an ape how to play this build.

    ^ That's the bulk of my serious complaint, concerning things that have become too over saturated in their access & potency.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yup, I have to point out that "sticky" builds with a lot of gap closers and offensive follow-up (like revenants or thieves) just counter rangers in general. Looks like another one of "nerf rock, paper is fine" threads to me.

  • The Ace.9105The Ace.9105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The performance on this class is too strong in higher tier play, and it isn't because of damage output like most people think.

    It's the over saturation of way too much teleportation chase potential.

    You could actually disable the Herald's walk/run WASD functions completely, and it would still stick to you like glue and be the strongest chase class in the game.

    That's too much.

    I just want to be able to run out of combat and swap my build for optimal herald chase rotations to get more ports. Just thought that would be a fun idea.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Not everything I complain about is because it's OP.

    Some things have just gotten to be too much mechanically within the system, making the game feel too "Super Monkey Blast Attack" as described in this post by @Master Ketsu.4569 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97262/why-increasing-cooldowns-does-not-reduce-spam-and-can-even-make-spam-worse which is entirely worth reading before you heckle this post any further.

    Things that in my opinion, have become Super Monkey Blast Attacks:

    • Teleportations game-wide - There is too much of this going on at this point, but Shiro/Glint really just exploits it to the highest level of ape button mashing as possible.
    • Stealth game-wide - IT'S TOO MUCH. It began to define a stealth headshot meta. And although damage is getting nerfed, stealth access & uptime keeps going up. I don't like it when the game feels like Alien vs. Predator stealth wars 2. It has nothing to do with anything being OP but rather really unnecessary and over saturated.
    • Firebrand in general concerning support factor dominance - Saiyan tier sensu bean support factor, that no other class is allowed to even get inside of the ballpark to be able to touch, even though plenty of other classes were designed for support. Just why?
    • Literally everything about current Pistol Whip is as ape as it gets. Seriously, you could actually teach an ape how to play this build.

    ^ That's the bulk of my serious complaint, concerning things that have become too over saturated in their access & potency.

    Every class has skills and mechanics that are strong and obnoxious to fight against. However, that's no reason to complain about things that will get nerfed by the end of the month.

    Ranger gs4 is in the exact same boat. It's probably the single most bloated weapon skill in the game currently, but it's on your main class do I guess that's why you're not mentioning it.

    Not like its the first time ranger mains start thier nerf crusade as soon as certain class beats them.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Personally I think:

    • Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.
    • Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.
    • Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds
    • Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds
    • Shackling Wave: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1. Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
    • Riposting Shadows: Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15
    • Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds
    • Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
    • Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds

    These changes all right here are VERY potent nerfs to meta Glint Shiro. Like very direct, very impactful nerfs that hit Glint Shiro in the ways I think the build is primarily unfair, namely that between it's overabundance of stun breaks along side it's impeccable defensive rotation it's a build that brings Team Fight Carry level damage while being functionally impossible to focus due to it's capacity to chain evades, blocks, and it's damage reversal.

    I'm personally not scared of Glint Shiro going forward.

    Im actually not sure about that.
    Their survivability took a (much needed) hit for sure, but the dmg nerfs seem kinda in line with the rest of the classes and for some skills even on the light side.

    Take deathstrike for instance. The scary part of this skill never was the initial port, but the flipover. And that "only" received a 15% cut.
    How big the shackling wave nerf is, is to be seen I suppose, since only the initial hit lost it's damage, but the secondary strikes didn't.
    The auto chain and #3 sword skills seem to be in line with the general -33% theme.

    A lot of Rev's future damage potential also hinges on their might uptime, which did get cut to be fair AND on how the sword #2 rework turns out.
    But overall....I'd say their damage nerfs seem to be pretty average compared to all the other classes changes.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It seems like too much but in the end, it's also just as easy to counter if you see it coming or calculate chains of stuns on Riposting Shadows.

    The moment Rev ports, it's vulnerable to CC. If that was a fresh swap port, that's a dead Rev.

    You can CC RS evade spam with patience or let it all be defensively used up with endurance evade spam as well.

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    So much stupid kitten in this game why would you cherry pick Herald mobility?

    How about, I dont know, Weaver sustain and might stacking. They literally just spam buttons, dont think they even look to see what their opponent has buff wise, or overly care what their opponent is doing. Just looking at their timers and spam stuff as it comes off CD. Firebrands crazy support power, there is literally zero reason to play anything else. How fast condis can be applied and reapplied by mirages, whew lucky I used that 25second condi clear to get rid of all those condis, oh nm they all back on me again in 4 seconds. 13-15k malicious backstabs/one shots from stealth. Pistol whip spam, the list goes on and on.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh/UwU/yep]

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    Mobility creep and res cheese are probably two of the most neglected aspects of powercreep in the last years, and chances are we feel them even more sharply after the next patch, even though res cheese was at least partly adressed.

    Almost endless ports are a one big reason why are several meta builds are obnoxious to fight, Rev, Thief and Mirage. Possibly the bigger reason than raw damage.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP content

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    They need that mobility since they have the lowest hp pool/armor and no block/evades.

    Sarcasm?

    Has to be. I almost choked when I read that.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It seems like too much but in the end, it's also just as easy to counter if you see it coming or calculate chains of stuns on Riposting Shadows.

    The moment Rev ports, it's vulnerable to CC. If that was a fresh swap port, that's a dead Rev.

    Fair points as far as porting in... but when porting out....
    I do not agree that its easy to chain stun reposting simply because it moves the character decently far and can be used back to back if energy allows. There are not many stuns that can follow up a Riposting shadows cast simply because of the range and nothing to stop them from simply legend swapping or using the skill again which in that case you most certainly cant follow it up with another cc from that a range.

    My issue was never with the ports moving the character its with effects that come with them specifically reposting shadows. 25 endurance gain!
    Dodging out to gain more dodge energy was just insane and 25 points at that.
    They are already nerfing the endurance gain on RS though which i think is fair in the very least. The rest is more debatable like every other profession there are things in revs notes that are like "why?"

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It seems like too much but in the end, it's also just as easy to counter if you see it coming or calculate chains of stuns on Riposting Shadows.

    The moment Rev ports, it's vulnerable to CC. If that was a fresh swap port, that's a dead Rev.

    Fair points as far as porting in... but when porting out....
    I do not agree that its easy to chain stun reposting simply because it moves the character decently far and can be used back to back if energy allows. There are not many stuns that can follow up a Riposting shadows cast simply because of the range and nothing to stop them from simply legend swapping or using the skill again which in that case you most certainly cant follow it up with another cc from that a range.

    My issue was never with the ports moving the character its with effects that come with them specifically reposting shadows. 25 endurance gain!
    Dodging out to gain more dodge energy was just insane and 25 points at that.
    They are already nerfing the endurance gain on RS though which i think is fair in the very least. The rest is more debatable like every other profession there are things in revs notes that are like "why?"

    As much as I hate Riposting Shadows myself, that skill is on part with Warrior/Spellbreaker Endurance regeneration from Might Makes Right. I'm glad they nerfed both in that regard. Even for the 40 Energy, Riposting Shadows was too easily spammed to great success.

    Honestly if it's too much, they can make it 30 again but with that Stability on stunbreak invocation is gonna get, it's debatable whether 40 is too much or just right.

    Hell if I can make RotGD work right now in the current state of the game, there's no way RS won't be playable. Revenants can also benefits from Sigils that have 9 seconds cooldown better than most classes out there too so with Annulment being out of the game, it's likely going to be replaced with Energy.

    The removal of Empty Vessel is EXTREMELY relative to the entire class also, it takes away a big chunk of energy for the escape potential, with Shiro especially because they will require a stunbreak that cost 40 in the first place, they won't be doing Phase Traversal anytime soon after, at least with Herald. Core Revenant with F2 has more potential to it.

    Charged Mists is also something way more fun to use now considering it's not longer a wasted stunbreak to swap legends.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It seems like too much but in the end, it's also just as easy to counter if you see it coming or calculate chains of stuns on Riposting Shadows.

    The moment Rev ports, it's vulnerable to CC. If that was a fresh swap port, that's a dead Rev.

    Fair points as far as porting in... but when porting out....
    I do not agree that its easy to chain stun reposting simply because it moves the character decently far and can be used back to back if energy allows. There are not many stuns that can follow up a Riposting shadows cast simply because of the range and nothing to stop them from simply legend swapping or using the skill again which in that case you most certainly cant follow it up with another cc from that a range.

    My issue was never with the ports moving the character its with effects that come with them specifically reposting shadows. 25 endurance gain!
    Dodging out to gain more dodge energy was just insane and 25 points at that.
    They are already nerfing the endurance gain on RS though which i think is fair in the very least. The rest is more debatable like every other profession there are things in revs notes that are like "why?"

    As much as I hate Riposting Shadows myself, that skill is on part with Warrior/Spellbreaker Endurance regeneration from Might Makes Right. I'm glad they nerfed both in that regard. Even for the 40 Energy, Riposting Shadows was too easily spammed to great success.

    Honestly if it's too much, they can make it 30 again but with that Stability on stunbreak invocation is gonna get, it's debatable whether 40 is too much or just right.

    Hell if I can make RotGD work right now in the current state of the game, there's no way RS won't be playable. Revenants can also benefits from Sigils that have 9 seconds cooldown better than most classes out there too so with Annulment being out of the game, it's likely going to be replaced with Energy.

    Well we also must consider that while it is 40 energy it still also has no cooldown and is only limited by energy restoration. Worst case situation someone legend swaps after using it they only need to wait roughly 10 seconds before they can legend swap again before its realistically back up where as other professions with similar stunbreaks that roll them out of a situation have a 35-40 second gap between the time they can use it again. I would say 40 energy is the better deal in terms of accessibility and flexibility. That said rev does not have other utility options so thats probably why its built this way to start with.

    The removal of Empty Vessel is EXTREMELY relative to the entire class also, it takes away a big chunk of energy for the escape potential, with Shiro especially because they will require a stunbreak that cost 40 in the first place, they won't be doing Phase Traversal anytime soon after, at least with Herald. Core Revenant with F2 has more potential to it.

    This does not seem like a bad thing if this change kind of adds more value to core rev (which almost no people play) im not going to consider it a bad thing. Ive already seen afew condi revs popping up recently with some creative builds that are not the standard herald port in do massive damage meta setups and they are having decent success with them.

    Charged Mists is also something way more fun to use now considering it's not longer a wasted stunbreak to swap legends.

    To be honest i personally preferred core rev to herald but thats just me personally when i played rev i just dont like how anet changed herald so much and ive never been all that good with its heal so i prefer something more stable like jails or even mallyx lol

  • Ouk.5914Ouk.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    They need that mobility since they have the lowest hp pool/armor and no block/evades.

    did you just say they have no block or evades?

    Ok....................... 5 evades isn't enough or a block from staff? Because that isn't good enough to give them insane burst and mobility with a teleport?

    Ok. :#

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's Shiro not Herald. And I'd say that Shiro's utilities are overloaded for the sake od being viable in PvP. I agree that the teleportation is frustrating but it's the whole utility kit that should be put on-line with other legends, so Shiro isn't a go-to on PvP.

    I'd say: Reduce Shiro's teleport range from 1200 to 900. Half the Quickness time.

    Put Shiro's evade on a 5s CD.

    Balance patch is coming and I'm afraid that Shiro's utilities are going to get hit very hard without much thought put into the nerfs.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Personally I think:

    • Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.
    • Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.
    • Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds
    • Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds
    • Shackling Wave: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1. Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
    • Riposting Shadows: Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15
    • Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds
    • Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
    • Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds

    These changes all right here are VERY potent nerfs to meta Glint Shiro. Like very direct, very impactful nerfs that hit Glint Shiro in the ways I think the build is primarily unfair, namely that between it's overabundance of stun breaks along side it's impeccable defensive rotation it's a build that brings Team Fight Carry level damage while being functionally impossible to focus due to it's capacity to chain evades, blocks, and it's damage reversal.

    I'm personally not scared of Glint Shiro going forward.

    Im actually not sure about that.
    Their survivability took a (much needed) hit for sure, but the dmg nerfs seem kinda in line with the rest of the classes and for some skills even on the light side.

    Take deathstrike for instance. The scary part of this skill never was the initial port, but the flipover. And that "only" received a 15% cut.
    How big the shackling wave nerf is, is to be seen I suppose, since only the initial hit lost it's damage, but the secondary strikes didn't.
    The auto chain and #3 sword skills seem to be in line with the general -33% theme.

    A lot of Rev's future damage potential also hinges on their might uptime, which did get cut to be fair AND on how the sword #2 rework turns out.
    But overall....I'd say their damage nerfs seem to be pretty average compared to all the other classes changes.

    I don't mind Glint Shiro revs doing a lot of damage. A lot of builds have the capacity to do a lot of damage like Core Guardian and Holosmith, Reaper and Core Warrior. My problem with Glint Shiro compared to other power builds that bring big damage is how nearly impossible it is to counter pressure them or stun them because on Live the second you look at them funny they:

    Riposting shadows > dodge > dodge > unrelenting assault > riposting shadows > weapon swap > legend swap > dodge from sigil of energy > warding rift > facet of darkness+gaze of darkness > surge of the mists (potentially 2 seconds of you land the knockdown) > facet of light+infused light > force an enemy dodge with facet of chaos+chaotic release > natural dodge > warding rift > weapon swap > legend swap > unrelenting assault > riposting shadows

    For like 25 seconds. A core guardian rolls into a team fight yeah they have the healing from Meditations and Virtue of Resolve and if they're REALLY in danger they can delay the focus for 3 seconds with Renewed Focus. But They aren't preventing you from focusing or counter attack them for like 25 seconds. Same with Holosmith they have the Photon Wall, Elixir S, Toss Elixir S. I never minded the big damage I just wanted a few more holes punched into their defensive options because their capacity to go super hard offensive and then nearly impenetrable defensive on the fly was just too high.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The performance on this class is too strong in higher tier play, and it isn't because of damage output like most people think.

    It's the over saturation of way too much teleportation chase potential.

    You could actually disable the Herald's walk/run WASD functions completely, and it would still stick to you like glue and be the strongest chase class in the game.

    That's too much.

    You need to learn the basics of kiting. Example: He has 2 teleports and superspeed so I go Sword/Dagger on my Ranger that has 2 movement skills and a cripple. Try to think of things in this way and have a plan ready. If you don't he'll just hit you with whatever he wants and get away with it.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046
    Have you know I'm the only core revenant around next to @Master Ketsu.4569 in the high placements although he's more often Power compared me which I am Condition as Loona for Core/Équivoque for Herald. We had a few fun clashes but there's a bunch of things we disagree on here and there, of course. He's not really into the favor of Empty Vessel removal, I am however. I do think Riposting Shadows is in the right place now and that Stability on stunbreak is long due, with Annulments removal it's nearly impossible to CC someone with Stability, breaking a Revenant flow in anyway will be rather difficult but still rewarding to CC one because Energy has more value now.

    Rare are the times I am CC to the point where I can't do anything currently as Core, so is any Revenants because of Empty Vessel and that's why it's a good decision. Like it's came down to the point where people can offensively use Gaze of Darkness with ease and back away with Swap and Shiro, these are the offending combo's that brings most of Herald a lil notch about Core, Might not so much.

    Core is indeed tankier than Herald as well for any objective because of all the Synergy with Weakness and Utility, however Herald has Infuse Light which tips the importance of Tanking mostly upside down since you can get away with it, but obviously not contest in the end.

    The way people play Herald/Shiro is the least Revenant way there is to play the game if you ask me. Little has it to do with energy right now since you always have something to use unless someone is good enough to stop it short. It's a real shame that even out of all those fights, I have rarely if at all seen a Revenant pop Infuse Light into Impossible Odds as well, that's like the most satisfying to do while the skill always gets used like an i-frame that you can't do anything.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Ouk.5914 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    They need that mobility since they have the lowest hp pool/armor and no block/evades.

    did you just say they have no block or evades?

    Ok....................... 5 evades isn't enough or a block from staff? Because that isn't good enough to give them insane burst and mobility with a teleport?

    Ok. :#

    [woosh noise]

    The kitten was that, something about Poe and laws?

    @Shao.7236 said:
    The way people play Herald/Shiro is the least Revenant way there is to play the game if you ask me. Little has it to do with energy right now since you always have something to use unless someone is good enough to stop it short. It's a real shame that even out of all those fights, I have rarely if at all seen a Revenant pop Infuse Light into Impossible Odds as well, that's like the most satisfying to do while the skill always gets used like an i-frame that you can't do anything.

    [Mallyx fan chanting in the distance]

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @ZDragon.3046
    Have you know I'm the only core revenant around next to @Master Ketsu.4569 in the high placements although he's more often Power compared me which I am Condition as Loona for Core/Équivoque for Herald. We had a few fun clashes but there's a bunch of things we disagree on here and there, of course. He's not really into the favor of Empty Vessel removal, I am however. I do think Riposting Shadows is in the right place now and that Stability on stunbreak is long due, with Annulments removal it's nearly impossible to CC someone with Stability, breaking a Revenant flow in anyway will be rather difficult but still rewarding to CC one because Energy has more value now.

    Rare are the times I am CC to the point where I can't do anything currently as Core, so is any Revenants because of Empty Vessel and that's why it's a good decision. Like it's came down to the point where people can offensively use Gaze of Darkness with ease and back away with Swap and Shiro, these are the offending combo's that brings most of Herald a lil notch about Core, Might not so much.

    Core is indeed tankier than Herald as well for any objective because of all the Synergy with Weakness and Utility, however Herald has Infuse Light which tips the importance of Tanking mostly upside down since you can get away with it, but obviously not contest in the end.

    The way people play Herald/Shiro is the least Revenant way there is to play the game if you ask me. Little has it to do with energy right now since you always have something to use unless someone is good enough to stop it short. It's a real shame that even out of all those fights, I have rarely if at all seen a Revenant pop Infuse Light into Impossible Odds as well, that's like the most satisfying to do while the skill always gets used like an i-frame that you can't do anything.

    lol.... Infuse light has been renamed to [Infuse i-Frames]
    Overall i think if everyone else is toned down by the right amounts rev will be fine although im looking at the mayllx rework with a questionable eye. Not too sure about that one.

    Also i 100% agree with that Gaze of darkness comment also questioning why it has the old Holo hammer smash range???? standing super far away from the rev and still get blinded while im not even the intended target "NANI!" But thats another topic and one of my lesser concerns the point is you are right people are at the point where they dont bother to save it defensively and almost always use it offensively because they can get away with it there is never a reason to consider why you shouldn't save it for a sticky situation.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @ZDragon.3046
    Have you know I'm the only core revenant around next to @Master Ketsu.4569 in the high placements although he's more often Power compared me which I am Condition as Loona for Core/Équivoque for Herald. We had a few fun clashes but there's a bunch of things we disagree on here and there, of course. He's not really into the favor of Empty Vessel removal, I am however. I do think Riposting Shadows is in the right place now and that Stability on stunbreak is long due, with Annulments removal it's nearly impossible to CC someone with Stability, breaking a Revenant flow in anyway will be rather difficult but still rewarding to CC one because Energy has more value now.

    Rare are the times I am CC to the point where I can't do anything currently as Core, so is any Revenants because of Empty Vessel and that's why it's a good decision. Like it's came down to the point where people can offensively use Gaze of Darkness with ease and back away with Swap and Shiro, these are the offending combo's that brings most of Herald a lil notch about Core, Might not so much.

    Core is indeed tankier than Herald as well for any objective because of all the Synergy with Weakness and Utility, however Herald has Infuse Light which tips the importance of Tanking mostly upside down since you can get away with it, but obviously not contest in the end.

    The way people play Herald/Shiro is the least Revenant way there is to play the game if you ask me. Little has it to do with energy right now since you always have something to use unless someone is good enough to stop it short. It's a real shame that even out of all those fights, I have rarely if at all seen a Revenant pop Infuse Light into Impossible Odds as well, that's like the most satisfying to do while the skill always gets used like an i-frame that you can't do anything.

    Actually, I am in favor of empty vessel being removed. It's current state carries a lot of bad Revenants out of situations they shouldn't get out of, not so much on any core build that uses Jalis ( Because you know, stab road lol ) but it's more of a problem on Meta Rev being able to just instantly break stun gain Quickness and burst people with S4. CCs should be felt and these low CD stunbreaks currently in the game are making it so too many builds can just flat out ignore them.

    My only two problems with the Revenant changes are:

    Riposting Shadow could use a nerf, but 40 energy is the wrong nerf. All it really does is remove the skill from play most of the time. A better change would be to leave it at 30 energy but then tone it down slightly more. My own suggestion was to remove the fury and remove the instant endurance gain entirely, replacing it with Vigor. This would make RS less of a "Dodge RS Dodge RS" and more of a skill where you have to consider managing endurance in the future. It also removes the problem of a defensive skill granting an offensive buff for seemingly no reason.

    Staff 5 getting a windup time. What this does is make the skill mostly useful as a defensive move, but removes its viability as an interrupt. This is bad for the class as it will make Rev the only class in the game without a quick disruption skill on their weapon slots, which is a much bigger blow to the class than I think anyone has yet to realize.

  • AngelLovesFredrik.6741AngelLovesFredrik.6741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    For like 25 seconds. A core guardian rolls into a team fight yeah they have the healing from Mantras and Mantra of Resolve and if they're REALLY in danger they can delay the focus for 3 seconds with Renewed Focus. But They aren't preventing you from focusing or counter attack them for like 25 seconds.

    I would love to play this core guard build with Mantras, is this some sort of gemstore feature?

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    For like 25 seconds. A core guardian rolls into a team fight yeah they have the healing from Mantras and Mantra of Resolve and if they're REALLY in danger they can delay the focus for 3 seconds with Renewed Focus. But They aren't preventing you from focusing or counter attack them for like 25 seconds.

    I would love to play this core guard build with Mantras, is this some sort of gemstore feature?

    kitten. Ha. I meant meditations. Edited to clarify what I meant.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    For like 25 seconds. A core guardian rolls into a team fight yeah they have the healing from Mantras and Mantra of Resolve and if they're REALLY in danger they can delay the focus for 3 seconds with Renewed Focus. But They aren't preventing you from focusing or counter attack them for like 25 seconds.

    I would love to play this core guard build with Mantras, is this some sort of gemstore feature?

    kitten. Ha. I meant meditations.

    I assume Meditations and VIRTUE of resolve? Haha

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The performance on this class is too strong in higher tier play, and it isn't because of damage output like most people think.

    It's the over saturation of way too much teleportation chase potential.

    You could actually disable the Herald's walk/run WASD functions completely, and it would still stick to you like glue and be the strongest chase class in the game.

    That's too much.

    they lose stun remove on swap, you cant chase when you are stunned.
    there reason why they are over the top is becouse they are 100% always actiave, always mitigating damage or dishing out damage

    Where do they state they lose stunbreak on swap?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The performance on this class is too strong in higher tier play, and it isn't because of damage output like most people think.

    It's the over saturation of way too much teleportation chase potential.

    You could actually disable the Herald's walk/run WASD functions completely, and it would still stick to you like glue and be the strongest chase class in the game.

    That's too much.

    they lose stun remove on swap, you cant chase when you are stunned.
    there reason why they are over the top is becouse they are 100% always actiave, always mitigating damage or dishing out damage

    Where do they state they lose stunbreak on swap?

    Here

    • Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.
    • Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @ZDragon.3046
    Have you know I'm the only core revenant around next to @Master Ketsu.4569 in the high placements although he's more often Power compared me which I am Condition as Loona for Core/Équivoque for Herald. We had a few fun clashes but there's a bunch of things we disagree on here and there, of course. He's not really into the favor of Empty Vessel removal, I am however. I do think Riposting Shadows is in the right place now and that Stability on stunbreak is long due, with Annulments removal it's nearly impossible to CC someone with Stability, breaking a Revenant flow in anyway will be rather difficult but still rewarding to CC one because Energy has more value now.

    Rare are the times I am CC to the point where I can't do anything currently as Core, so is any Revenants because of Empty Vessel and that's why it's a good decision. Like it's came down to the point where people can offensively use Gaze of Darkness with ease and back away with Swap and Shiro, these are the offending combo's that brings most of Herald a lil notch about Core, Might not so much.

    Core is indeed tankier than Herald as well for any objective because of all the Synergy with Weakness and Utility, however Herald has Infuse Light which tips the importance of Tanking mostly upside down since you can get away with it, but obviously not contest in the end.

    The way people play Herald/Shiro is the least Revenant way there is to play the game if you ask me. Little has it to do with energy right now since you always have something to use unless someone is good enough to stop it short. It's a real shame that even out of all those fights, I have rarely if at all seen a Revenant pop Infuse Light into Impossible Odds as well, that's like the most satisfying to do while the skill always gets used like an i-frame that you can't do anything.

    Actually, I am in favor of empty vessel being removed. It's current state carries a lot of bad Revenants out of situations they shouldn't get out of, not so much on any core build that uses Jalis ( Because you know, stab road lol ) but it's more of a problem on Meta Rev being able to just instantly break stun gain Quickness and burst people with S4. CCs should be felt and these low CD stunbreaks currently in the game are making it so too many builds can just flat out ignore them.

    Interesting

    My only two problems with the Revenant changes are:

    Riposting Shadow could use a nerf, but 40 energy is the wrong nerf. All it really does is remove the skill from play most of the time. A better change would be to leave it at 30 energy but then tone it down slightly more. My own suggestion was to remove the fury and remove the instant endurance gain entirely, replacing it with Vigor. This would make RS less of a "Dodge RS Dodge RS" and more of a skill where you have to consider managing endurance in the future. It also removes the problem of a defensive skill granting an offensive buff for seemingly no reason.

    You are not the first person to say this and i would totally agree on this to be honest drop the energy cost back down replace endurance gain with minor vigor boon. just make sure its not enough vigor to end up with insane uptimes like it should not last long enough for you to legend swap then have swapped back and Vigor from 2 swaps ago still be applied we need less perma boon things but make it last long enough to cover what would be the gain of 15-20 endurance which is only a few seconds.

    Staff 5 getting a windup time. What this does is make the skill mostly useful as a defensive move, but removes its viability as an interrupt. This is bad for the class as it will make Rev the only class in the game without a quick disruption skill on their weapon slots, which is a much bigger blow to the class than I think anyone has yet to realize.

    I think depending on how slow the start up is on the staff rework off hand axe 5 might be a faster interrupt now but even that one is pretty slow but at the same time its go a odd hit box some times its super wide some times its like "HOW DID THAT NOT HIT YOU?"

    That said the skill did need a tell and i think that was the most important thing about it as it is right now you just have to guess pretty much on a raw feeling when the rev will use it based on their movements and skill rotation and some times its just not possible to correctly do that. With it hitting multiple times so fast very few professions have enough stability to tank it or use stability as a counter to it too so its one of the skills that you have to dodge or its just gonna push. But i can see where you are coming from. I think if its not any longer than other cc tells like point blank shot, the new doom (which is gonna be about a half second) etc then it might be fine.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046
    @Master Ketsu.4569

    The thing about Revenant is that after using a skill, energy still comes back unless there's upkeep in use. By doing that for Riposting Shadows after stunbreak there's at least minimum 15% as the stunbreak completes that will be available, that's plenty to kite with staff or retaliate with anything, Stability also can be included. For example, I would do something like Legend Swap + Quickness from SotM and more if getting hits + Riposting Shadows Stunbreak = Fast (Quickness), Accurate (Fury) and CC Immune (Stability) Unrelenting Assault, at the end of it there's more energy to spare because of the evade uptime.

    Every skills on the profession have little to do with the playstyle that userbase would wish for but rather keep the momentum and pressure going hence why there's Fury and not Vigor, plus there will be Vigor all across the board if Retribution gets picked (Fury also Triggers Vigor on Renegade), it makes no sense to have that on top in comparison to the rest of other changes on other professions.

    Pain Absorption didn't get the same treatment because it's self deprecating in some scenarios with the risk of still having chunks of power damage while for Darkrazor's there's some risk to it and RotGD is a massive buff in comparison and this one will be even harder to stop.

    Those changes (to me at least.) feel very well thought out and sharp in the bigger picture, I already know and can tell what I'll be doing, besides Ventari which I have mixed feelings about but it could still be very good in the end, everything adds up and I'm really looking forward to it.

    Empty Vessel removal will really push the players that care about Revenant to pull off some great combos.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    But Revs mobility has nothing to do with Herald, its on core weapons and core stance. It is only on target mobility, barely for escaping or rotation. I think it is more than enough to delete the extra rewards from them.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    They need that mobility since they have the lowest hp pool/armor and no block/evades.

    Sarcasm?

    No course the OP is totally serious , after all they don't have any Blocks ( Staff 3:Warding Rift, Shield 5: Crystal Hibernation) or Evades (Hammer 3:Phase Smash, Staff 5: Surge of the Mists, Sword 3: Unrelenting Assault) and they have the LOWEST health pool (Rev has a base of 15,922 health where as the lowest health pool is 11,645 and it belongs to the Elementalist , Thief and the Guardian) I mean how could anybody not see what terrible disadvantage they have working against them it's so totally unfair....

    Sorry I couldn't help myself with all the back and forth from so many people about this "Class is Overpowered!" and then it's "No this Class is Overpowered!" etc. etc..

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630
    Guard has the lowest health pool because they have a strongest utility set out of the three heavies that isn't put into a timely playstyle with either i-frames, instant access and AoE dominance. With that many Aegis that can often force or prevent anything from players, it entirely justifies why they went that way, as you should look also from either Elite specs point of view for Thief and Elementalist as well, imagine how awful it would be to deal with higher base health of these professions if it was a thing, to have them require some vitality balances that out.